Gramercy or Veritas dovetail saw

[Josh Rudolph]

I am getting more and more interested in hand cutting dovetails. I got some extra money for Christmas this year and am considering buying a dovetail saw.

Of the 2 I have considered, which would you choose and why?

I am leaning towards the Gramercy kit due to it being filed rip, but can be convinced otherwise.

However the Lee Valley has received good reviews and LV stuff always seem to be a safe bet.

So what do you think?

Josh

[Adam Johan Bergren]

Veritas has two dovetail saws filed rip: a 14 tpi and a 20. I have the 14, and it is an excellent saw!

[Jacob Mac]

I have never used the Gramercy, so I can't comment on it. But I have used the LV saw, and it is excellent. Great value, IMO.

[David Gendron]

I think they are quite different saw, and by that I meen the Gramecy is a realy light, realy shalow blade saw. The handle is quite different of any other saws I have used, more opened and slander than other, wich I like... i think! Of course if you make the kit, you can make what ever tote you like! The Gramercy with the 20ppi would probably compare to the Veritas 20ppi but I think the 14ppi from Veritas would cut a little faster(you can read a comparison on Derek Cohen website, IN THE WOOD SHOP) other than that with the price in mind, I realy think that the Veritas would be a good choice, since you could have the 14ppi for tick stuff and the 20ppi for the thin stuff like drawers for the price of one saw, some thing to realy consider IMO!

[Josh Rudolph]

Veritas has two dovetail saws filed rip: a 14 tpi and a 20. I have the 14, and it is an excellent saw!


You are right Adam, I misread the webpage for Lee Valley. It says Veritas Dovetail AND Crosscut. I read it as Veritas Dovetail Crosscut.


David,

I was looking at doing the kit, just to keep the cost down. However you have a good point that I could by the set and have all for just a little more.

[Gary Herrmann]

I've never used or even held the Grammercy, but I'm sure it's up to the standards of their other high quality tools. I also have the 14 tpi LV and consider it to be a very fine saw - especially for the price.

[Mick David]

I took a dovetail class last year from Mario Rodriguez, who spoke very highly of the Gramercy saw. The LV gets great reviews all around. Tough to go wrong, but my rule on purchases like this is if you can't decide, get the one that costs less.

[Stephen Edwards]

I just ordered the Veritas 14TPI this morning, along with one of their wheel marking gauges.

Until recently, I had no desire whatsoever to make handcut dovetails. Now, I'm determined to learn to make them!

So, what has inspired me to have this change of heart? James Krenov. Sad to say, I'd never even heard of the man until I read his obit in a sticky here at SMC. Someone posted a link to the transcript of an interview done with him just a few years prior to his death. When I read that interview I knew that I was onto something for me. I bought A Cabinetmaker's Notebook and The Fine Art of Cabinetmaking. These two books are the most inspiring woodworking books that I've ever read.

Oh, I bought the Veritas saw on the recommendation of a fellow creeker who has the set of three. I take him at his word that their saws are as good as claimed. I'm excited about receiving mine in a few days!

[Chris Kennedy]

I received a LV gift card for Christmas, and I have done the same thing. I ordered the 14tpi dovetail and the crosscut. I have to leave town in a little while, and I am desperately hoping they arrive before I have to go.

Cheers,

Chris

[Josh Rudolph]

Well now after reading more reviews and considering the other things I should have to help with dovetailing...I am leaning towards the 14 tpi LV saw.

Now I guess the question would be....14tpi or 20tpi?

I know the 14 will cut faster and is better suited for 1/2" - 3/4" material, how will it handle in smaller material?

I think I like the idea of being able to get through the cut faster, why would the 20tpi be a better match for me?

[Larry Marshall]

I know the 14 will cut faster and is better suited for 1/2" - 3/4" material, how will it handle in smaller material?

I think I like the idea of being able to get through the cut faster, why would the 20tpi be a better match for me?

While it may be true that fewer teeth will cut faster under certain conditions, I wouldn't place my emphasis on that. Rather, dovetail saws are 'set' to produce a thin kerf. As wood thickness increases, the potential for clogging up fine teeth in that thin kerf increases. A 20tpi saw would be useful but if you're only buying one, I think you'd find the 14tpi saw more versatile.

Also, it may be relevant to your decision that the Gramercy saw is one of the lightest while the LV saw is one of the heavier dovetail saws. Personally I like a 'heavy' dovetail saw but it's a matter of taste I suppose.

Cheers --- Larry

[Josh Rudolph]

While it may be true that fewer teeth will cut faster under certain conditions, I wouldn't place my emphasis on that. Rather, dovetail saws are 'set' to produce a thin kerf. As wood thickness increases, the potential for clogging up fine teeth in that thin kerf increases. A 20tpi saw would be useful but if you're only buying one, I think you'd find the 14tpi saw more versatile.

Also, it may be relevant to your decision that the Gramercy saw is one of the lightest while the LV saw is one of the heavier dovetail saws. Personally I like a 'heavy' dovetail saw but it's a matter of taste I suppose.

Cheers --- Larry


Thanks Larry...all very good points. In my mind I would like a heavier saw.

[Don Dorn]

Can only speak for the 14pt saw. I bought it a year ago and have used it so much that I've needed to sharpen it. It was easy to do and it continues to work as well as the day I got it. I'll admit that I also like a gents saw, but the quality of the Veritas 14pt dovetail saw is top notch and I'm completely satisfied with it.

As to the dovetails - don't overthink it as it's not some magical thing like some would have you belive. Learn how to cut straight with saw and practice cutting to the waste side of lines and to the marking gauge. Start with a single and practice it every day for awhile, then two, then three and by that time, you'll basically have it, but just need to fine tune.

In regard to pins vs tails first - you will never get an absolute answer and it can be done both ways. It's personal preference for me to cut pins first because I like using them as a template for the tails, but the Cosman bunch certainly puts out beautiful product and they do tails first and mark the board for the pins. Try both and see which seems to suit you. Good luck, if I can do it, you can certainly do it and I've gotten lazy enough that if they don't fit off the saw, I'd do um' over.

[James Taglienti]

I have never used either saw. They both get good reviews, but the veritas is super cheap. that would convince me. You could also buy a vintage one for about half that.

[Eric Brown]

I have the Gramercy and while it cuts well, my hand got lost in the handle. So I modified it. Cut 1/2" out of the middle (with the grain) and glued it back. It now fits my small hands much better.

Someone else mentioned blade heigth. The Gramercy is short, but is long enought for most endgrain dovetails. However, I like to cut sliding dovetails using a sloped wooden guide fence and that requires a lot more heigth. Many of my sliding dovetails are crosscut too. Most of my saws were custom made by Medallion Tools with handles sized for my hands. Something to consider if you have either very large od small hands.

I also have a Glen-Drake "Wild West Double Handled Joinery Saw" that works well. With it I got a set of kerf starters and those make starting a cut much easier and precise.

Never used the Veritas saws but have lots of their other tools and all are top notch.

Eric

[John Coloccia]

Well now after reading more reviews and considering the other things I should have to help with dovetailing...I am leaning towards the 14 tpi LV saw.

Now I guess the question would be....14tpi or 20tpi?

I know the 14 will cut faster and is better suited for 1/2" - 3/4" material, how will it handle in smaller material?

I think I like the idea of being able to get through the cut faster, why would the 20tpi be a better match for me?

I have the set of 3. Given a choice between the 14 and the 20, I would definitely want the 14. The 20 was just a splurge for me. I do grab the 20 when I'm cutting in thin material, although as my control with the 14 gets ever better, I grab the 20 less and less. A year from now, I'll probably think the 20 was not worth it. I may end up filing it for crosscut and simply dedicating it to my pen making station.

Again, nothing at all against the 20. It does a fantastic job in the thinner woods. I guess I'm just starting to realize that maybe this is all much simpler than we generally make it out to be, and that there's such a thing as "good enough" where better doesn't increase the quality of the piece, and that the 14 is good enough for everything I do. :D

[Sean Hughto]

I made the Gramercy dovetail kit. It was fun and easy. I love how the saw cuts and handles. While I have several dovetail saws, this is the one I pick up most often.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3052/2942703239_f58725f808.jpg

Hanging in its spot on a tool cabinet door:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2005/2265379117_79827c7179.jpg

[David Gendron]

Realy nice cabinet and tool layout!

[Sean Hughto]

Thanks, it was the only pic I could easily find that actually showed the whole saw (unobscured by my hand and the wood as in the previous pic). Strangley perhaps, I sort of ad libbed the organization int hat cabinet after I built it. Worked out though.

[Sean Hughto]

A while back, when playing with my, then new, Flip video device, I made this silly video where I added sound effects to me dovetailing a piece of maple with this saw. It only lasts 1 minute, 30 seconds, but at the beginning, you get to see the saw actually cutting a couple of tail sides. It goes through the maple smoothly and quickly:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chevy_chase_hughtos/3496155520/

For what little it may be worth to see. Cheers!

p.s., The video also shows a Gramercy carcase (x-cut) saw taking off an end.

[Rob Lee]

(snip)They both get good reviews, but the veritas is super cheap.... (snip)

Please James... it's super "Inexpensive".....;):D

Cheers -

Rob

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

When I was at WIA in October I got to play with both of them opposite the Spear & Jackson I brought to see if I could tune it up. I didn't walk home with either, although I was seriously tempted by the Veritas, because I managed to tune the S&J up to similar standards. The Gramercy was a superb saw, and it's the one Roy Underhill uses IIRC, but it didn't agree with me as much as the Veritas, something that surprised me.

Of the examples I played with, the 14 ppi Veritas was a very fast cutting saw, which is quite attractive. Not entirely sure why the Gramercy seemed slower.

[Josh Rudolph]

Well I ordered the 14tpi a little while ago. The extra weight is what pushed me to the LV.

I am excited to use a premium saw versus the Craftsman Gent saw I have been trying to use.

[Richard Niemiec]

I just bought the LV 20 tpi (like I needed another saw... but hey, you only live once) and it cuts like a dreamboat, I just did four drawers with it, and its close to half the price of similarly performing saws, you can't beat it for the price-to-performance ratio involved. Non traditional, but it cuts like my other premium and vintage saws. How one could go wrong beats me.

[David Gendron]

I wonder why most saw makers are going with lighter saws and thiner blades? I Have to say that since I do all my work with hand tools I kind a like the lighter saws, lighter planes.... to a certain point!