Prioritizing Tools, Part I

[Jamie Straw]

I hope y'all can bear with me -- I need to prioritize my turning tool purchases to be made courtesy of an Amazon gift certificate, and since I don't really know much about the tools, I may be a pest for a few days.:o


Short-term turning activities, say the next 3-4 months:
Spindle-type work: bottle-stoppers, spinning tops, candlesticks, tool handles, etc.
Relatively small bowls
Small turned boxes
Tools I have or have access to:

3 sizes of skews
1/4" and 3/8" spindle gouges; one roughing gouge
several bowl gouges
several round scrapers
parting tools (diamond shaped; and the kind with the notch, like a Sorby fluted tool)
Specific questions I have:

Would the Sorby multi-tip shear scraper be a wise choice for this stage in woodturning?
What tool do I need for the following task: Flattening or making slightly concave the top of a bottle stopper -- where the divot from the live center is. I've been using a spindle gouge, very carefully, but it feels like there should be a better way (not a skew, I hope!)
Amazon seems to carry mostly Sorby and Crown. Any advice re: brand??
Related: Any opinions on the Crown Pro-PM line?
Is there a missing tool that jumps out as a must-have?
I have a Talon chuck with the standard jaws and screw option, plus a 4-spur center. As long as I keep projects within the size range, will those do what's needed?
This $$ isn't burning a hole in my pocket, I just want to use it wisely as it's the bulk of my turning budget for the next couple of months.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[David E Keller]

Jamie,

It looks to me like you've got a pretty good stable of turning tools already. You certainly seem to have spindle work covered with the skews and spindle gouges.

You mention several bowl gouges and scrapers which would get me through most small boxes and bowls.

I really don't see a glaring deficiency in you turning tools. If you don't have a proper sharpening set-up, that's where I'd spend my money. I'm a sucker for DVD's, so I'd look at those as well.

I'm not a huge fan of gimmicky tools although I think every turner I've met owns at least a few(I certainly do).

Specifics:
1. Never used the Sorby scraper you referenced but I don't see it as a necessity for the projects you mentioned.

2. Bowl gouge or a scraper would be my choice for flattening or concave on the top of a stopper(or the foot of a bowl).

3. Brand seems to be about preference. I own a few Sorby tools that I like, but I've never tried Crown. I'll probably look at Doug Thompson's tools next time I reach for my wallet as they seems to be the most popular tools among the turners here.

4. No Crown tool experience.

5. I've used a Talon exclusively for chuck work up to this point, and I have no complaints. I'll likely look at a larger chuck at some point down the road as I now have a lathe that can handle larger projects.

If you've got access to a turning club or others that turn, I'd test drive their tools before you get that next "must have" tool.

Just my thoughts

[Jamie Straw]

Thanks, David. I plan to attend the nearest AAW meeting in January, assuming it's not scheduled when I'm in Sunny Palm Springs, getting a Vitamin D boost.:D

My sharpening situation is pretty good now. I could use better wheels, but Amazon doesn't have the Nortons that I want. Will stick with the cheapies for now. I'm a sucker for DVDs also, already have 4 (came with the Talon chuck). I'll spend some time watching them, learn about the different tools, before I buy. The multi-tip was mentioned in a thread here at SC. Seems like something like that or the Crown multi-tip (http://www.amazon.com/Crown-268W-Multi-Tip-Scraper/dp/B001C04G9S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1261808392&sr=1-1) might give me some good bang for the buck, but I'll wait for user input.

Two of the three skews and all of the bowl gouges belong to a friend, and I don't want to shorten their life by overuse -- I may aim for getting my own version in the next 2 or 3 months. One thing I need for sure is a couple of bandsaw blades to cut up the maple and alder logs I have access to. Just remembered that. I think I can get the Timberwolf blades on Amazon.......

[Gordon Seto]

Jamie,

I honestly don't think you "need" any more tools now. I think you will get over your frustration once your tool sharpening problem is solved with your grinder set up.
Belonging to two active Clubs, I had the opportunity to watch quite a few professional demonstrations. They made their signature tools and grinds look like magic. I have bought into some of them and changed my tool grinds many times. I can tell you from experience that those tools don't behave like in the demonstrations.
As to flattening the top of the bottle stopper, a spindle gouge would be fine. It doesn't require as much clearance as a bowl gouge. Skew is not designed to make concave cuts.
The Amazon GC won't expire, so there is no rush to spend it. Join the Club, take a class and learn how to present the cutting edge gliding the bevel. As far as DVD goes, I would suggest the first couple by Jimmy Clewes. They have real good close up camera shots.

[Jamie Straw]

Thanks, Gordon. I know for sure that a large percentage of times when I've had problems, it's been due to poor sharpening technique. I'll take a look at the Clewes DVD's. I'm getting a feel for when a tool is deficient in its sharpening, the spindle gouge is giviing me the most grief (and getting shorter, and shorter....)

I'm pretty focused on the turning and what might be needed because once the horse-work starts back up tomorrow, I won't have the right mental energy, or relaxed time, to really think about it for awhile. One reason I'm attracted to turning is that I can work in small chunks of time (compared to doing "flat" woodworking), but the thinking/evaluating part has been hard for me when I'm juggling with that other life.

[David Walser]

Jamie,

If you have access to three different sizes of skews, a 1/4" and a 3/8" spindle gouge, a roughing spindle gouge, two different sized parting tools (one thin and one "regular"), several scrapers and a bowl gouge or too; you don't need any additional turning tools to complete the projects you've identified. You might need or want some specialized mandrels or bushings (depending on the types of bottle stoppers and other projects you turn), but that's about it.

As for DVDs, I highly recommend the following:


Ed Davidson's free tutorials: You can easily get lost for several hours watching and learning on Ed's excellent website. He currently has over 27 video tutorials available. In addition, he has several old-fashioned non-moving-picture tutorials. The videos tend to be ordered with the most recent on ones at the top of the list, so be sure to scroll down. He has several videos on bottle stoppers. He's constantly updating the website, so it pays to check back often. http://yoyospin.com/tutorials/
The "project" video series by Rex Burningham and Kip Christensen. There are currently four DVDs in the series. Rex and Kip take you through the making of 5 or 6 projects in each video. Most of these projects are the ones or similar to the ones you said you wanted to make. You'll see that their spindle turning tools are pretty much limited to the ones you already have. They don't spend a lot of time specifically teaching proper technique for using a skew or a spindle gouge. That's NOT the purpose of the videos. But, you can learn proper technique from seeing two pros in action. The videos are available from several sources, including Rex and Kip's own website: http://www.learningturning.com/site/page/pg4047-pn_Woodturning_Project_DVDs.html
Alan Lacer's videos, in particular his Son of Skew and Projects Along the Woodturning Trail videos. In the Son of Skew and Projects videos, Alan makes several projects that are the same as or similar to the ones you mentioned. Again, you'll see he makes the projects with very few tools other than a skew and gouge. His videos are available from several sources, including his own website: http://www.alanlacer.com/

Good luck!

[Dan Forman]

For learning how to use the skew, I would put Lacer's first video before the project one. In the first he gives you the techniques, in the second, he assumes you already know that goes directly to the projects.

Do you have a grinding jig like the Wolverine yet? That would be an important thing to have.

I find it easiest to use a bowl gouge to do the tops of bottle stoppers.

Bill Grumbines DVD "Turned Bowls Made Easy" is an excellent resource for learning to turn Bowls.

I agree with others that the best thing you could do is to find a local club to join and find a mentor. That will save you a lot of time and frustration.

Dan

[Mike Minto]

jamie, just a short response regarding brand here. I have had only positive experience with Sorby handled turning tools - stiff blades that keep a good edge and are easy to sharpen. My Crown tools, as well, have been great - the 5/8 ellsworth PM i have is my 'go-to'. Pinnacle, while i use a scraper, i find too flexible, especially in smaller diameters - as i've said before, not all HSS is the same. And Thompsons are outstanding, as well. Hope this opinion helps.

[Gordon Seto]

Jamie,

Without out sharp tool, you will
be pushing too hard. That may be the main source of your problem with spindle gouge. Pushing too hard, the spindle starts flexing, chattering.
There are only several basic rules in spindle turning.
Sharp tool
Anchor the tool on tool rest first, then heel on the turning spindle, lift the handle till the edge starts cutting and maintain the bevel gliding.
Cut with the grain, from large diameter to small diameter. Don't cut uphill.
Swing the tool into the direction of the cut.

I would suggest you practice on some 2x4. It is not that mainly because they are cheap. It is a lousy wood to turn. It will give you instantaneous feed back if you are not doing everything right.
The wood is likely to tear out and chip if you don't have sharp tool and gliding the bevel in the correct cutting direction. They don't response well to scraping. If you rubbing the bevel too hard and too slow, the wood would burn and because of the soft and hard alternating winter and summer growth annual rings, they are easy to get chattering if you are advancing the tool too fast. You will be rewarded with a smooth surface if you are doing everything right. You will have less problem when you are turning some decent wood.

Most Clubs have libraries for members to borrow for free. Sorry you can't pay the dues with Amazon Gift Cards, but that is the best value.

[Bernie Weishapl]

You've gotten some good advice Jamie. I will say that Lacer's first DVD on skews is by far the best I have seen. He takes you thru sharpening to about all the cuts you need with a skew and if you have troubles why. Bill Grumbines for bowls is about as good as it gets. You have about all the tools you will need to do what you are wanting to turn. You said some of the tools are your friends. I would get those tools for your arsenal and return the friends. By the way I do use a skew on the top of bottle stoppers but I also like a beading/parting tool also.

[Jake Helmboldt]

Specific questions I have:

Would the Sorby multi-tip shear scraper be a wise choice for this stage in woodturning?
What tool do I need for the following task: Flattening or making slightly concave the top of a bottle stopper -- where the divot from the live center is. I've been using a spindle gouge, very carefully, but it feels like there should be a better way (not a skew, I hope!)
Amazon seems to carry mostly Sorby and Crown. Any advice re: brand??
Related: Any opinions on the Crown Pro-PM line?
Is there a missing tool that jumps out as a must-have?
I have a Talon chuck with the standard jaws and screw option, plus a 4-spur center. As long as I keep projects within the size range, will those do what's needed?
This $$ isn't burning a hole in my pocket, I just want to use it wisely as it's the bulk of my turning budget for the next couple of months.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jamie, I suggest getting a couple tools that you are borrowing. That way you can experiment with grinding them to your liking; it can be very personal. A 1/2" bowl gouge (American sizing = 1/2" bar stock) is your best bet to start with.

Also get your own skew if you don't have a good one and practice. The skew can be a real @#$* to use, but it can't be beat for some applications and it is really satisfying when you learn to use it. I think a 3/4" is a nice size for a variety of uses.

You mention wheels, but if you are using the stock gray wheels then replace them, even if they are just generic wheels (white/blue/pink). That will make a difference in sharpening and subsequently turning.

I haven't used the multi-tip; been looking at it for undercutting closed forms and end grain boxes, but no experience with it. But it isn't a necessity so I'd focus on getting your primary tools that you are borrowing.

I have a pro-pm skew that is nice and holds an edge well. I believe the Pinnacle cryo tools at Woodcraft are made by crown but I'm not sure. I have their scraper that is pretty good. For a bowl gouge get a Thompson and make a handle for it as one of your first projects. You'll have one of the best gouges for half the price.

The Talon profiled jaws aren't the best if you want to leave a foot on your bowls; they crush the wood. You can get their smooth dovetail jaws as an option to avoid marking up the wood (and also make re-chucking more consistent.)

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I'll jump on the bandwagon that say you do have enough tools, but you do need to invest in a sharpening system of some sort. My story is that I used to hand sharpen, and I THOUGHT I had my tools razor sharp. Then I got a new Sorby Spindlemaster. (Don't buy one, it stays in the bottom of my drawer) Out of the box the Spindlemaster was way sharper than my hand sharpened tools. So that means my sharpening skills are, well, you can gather your own thoughts. So I got a Tormek. A sharp tool is a joy to use. For years, I turned with a dull tool. I thought they were sharp, but they weren't. Any sharpening system will make your turning much more productive and enjoyable. Of course, what is the "best" is a whole argument thread that has been beaten to death on this forum. There is no "best", just what you are comfortable with. Naturally, I'd reccomend the Tormek. Most people here like the Wolverine.

Sorry for the long story.

[Jamie Straw]

David (W.), thanks for the DVD and video recommendations. I've found several pretty good sites, but did not stumple upon Ed Davidson's site, will definitely check it out.

[Jamie Straw]

I agree with others that the best thing you could do is to find a local club to join and find a mentor. That will save you a lot of time and frustration.

Dan

Yep, they've finally set their January meeting date, and it's after I get back from visiting siblings in California. I'll be there! (Oh, and in response to your query, yes I have the Wolverine and a new 8" slow-speed grinder. Getting a grinder that works with the VeriGrind 2 accessory has made life much easier.)

[Jamie Straw]

jamie, just a short response regarding brand here. I have had only positive experience with Sorby handled turning tools - stiff blades that keep a good edge and are easy to sharpen. My Crown tools, as well, have been great - the 5/8 ellsworth PM i have is my 'go-to'. Pinnacle, while i use a scraper, i find too flexible, especially in smaller diameters - as i've said before, not all HSS is the same. And Thompsons are outstanding, as well. Hope this opinion helps.

Funny you should mention stiff v flexible blades. The 1/4" spindle gouge I picked up a couple weeks ago is very flexible -- it's a Pinnacle. I don't like it at all. I actually meant to get the Crown PM, but spaced, then figured it really didn't make much difference. Ooops.

[Jamie Straw]

I would suggest you practice on some 2x4. It is not that mainly because they are cheap. It is a lousy wood to turn. It will give you instantaneous feed back if you are not doing everything right.


Lot's of construction scrap to work on, I'll take your advice. Actually, yesterday I was feeling relieved to realize I could put away the bottle stopper parts and just practice for awhile!! There were a couple designs I wanted to make for gifts, but skills weren't quite up to it, so being able to just waste wood for awhile will be fun (and beneficial).

[Dave Rudy]

I can't believe I'm reading a thread where woodturners are saying that anyone ever has enough tools!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

Seriously, Jamie, let me echo what others have said. The issue at your stage is not more tools or even brands of tools, but learning to sharpen and use what you have already. Crown pro-pm are usually good value they are harder than Sorby M2 steel. Thompson (at 10v the hardest steel available) are the best if you want maximum time between sharpenings. But one is not likely to notice any difference in these types of steel unless the tools are sharp.

So get to the club and if you can afford to do so, take a live lesson with an experienced professional turner.

Also, the Raffan videos (two have been released in the last year or so) are IMHO the best to start with.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Mike Peace]

You said you were in pretty good shape for sharpening but it is not clear whether you have a sharpening jig setup like the Wolverivne and Veri-grind. If not, I think that is your main need.

I would not get more jaws until you understand why you need them. That said I use a smaller set of jaws a lot for doing small spindle type work on stock that is too small to fit in the #2 jaws, like ornaments, tool handles, and more. But if you aren't turning smaller items that need to be held in jaws so you can get to the end, than you may not benefit. This is an example where what someone needs really is a function of what they turn. I know a lot of turners that never have the need for smaller jaws.

[Thom Sturgill]

Jamie, while you have a good selection, I would recommend one larger spindle gouge, say 1/2". I have about 5 standard spindle gouges, each a different size and use them all depending on the scale of work. I also have two german or european spindle gouges that I use regularly for large coves as well as roughing. In fact I use them where many would use a skew, with far fewer catches. I also have one of the Ellsworth PM gouges and it is a go to gouge for much bowl work, but I have heard many horror stories about powdered metal fracturing. As I understand Doug Thompson's gouges (not available on Amazon) are also PM, but have not heard any stories of them fracturing (probably better QA as I understand Doug personnally sharpens them).

As to brands on Amazon, I see Penn State ( Benjamins Best, lowest price but good quality), Crown and Sorby. I can not see that much difference in the two. I have the sorby multi-tip and it is a good scraper, but you said you already have a few scrapers.

I would like to second (third, forth,?) the recommendation that a good grinder, wheels and jig are essentials, as are some training in how to set up and use them.

[Jamie Straw]

Hi, Thom. You bring up something I was planning to ask about -- different size spindle gouges. One of the projects to do is a peppermill for my husband. These obviously have much bigger rounds and such than the little goodies I've done so far. What's a good size gouge for, say, a 3"-3.5" round??

I'm all set with grinder and Wolverine jig. Still working on the learning curve, but getting better.

I'm not too interested in accumulating any more cryogenic tools -- I only picked up the Pinnacle because it was one of the two 1/4" spindle gouges they had in stock, and I needed it for a "now" project. HSS is fine with me, but if the price is relatively close, I'd like to try the PM.

I bought Benjamin's Best for my first tools, figuring that be the best way to get going sharpening-wise: low-cost, work just fine (we used them in class also), and I can forgive myself if I use up an entire skew just learning how to sharpen (especially when it's made out of a parting tool, even [I]less expensive!). The handles are a little short, and I had one tool come loose from it's handle -- perhaps I stressed it somehow, who knows.

[Jamie Straw]

I can't believe I'm reading a thread where woodturners are saying that anyone ever has enough tools!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol

Seriously, Jamie, let me echo what others have said. The issue at your stage is not more tools or even brands of tools, but learning to sharpen and use what you have already. Crown pro-pm are usually good value they are harder than Sorby M2 steel. Thompson (at 10v the hardest steel available) are the best if you want maximum time between sharpenings. But one is not likely to notice any difference in these types of steel unless the tools are sharp.

So get to the club and if you can afford to do so, take a live lesson with an experienced professional turner.

Also, the Raffan videos (two have been released in the last year or so) are IMHO the best to start with.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Thanks, Dave. I've been pretty saturated with tools for a long time now, a miracle, but it happens. I even have enough clamps!:eek:

I have Raffan's new version of Turning Wood, and his Turning Bowls. Great guy!

[Jamie Straw]

I'll jump on the bandwagon that say you do have enough tools, but you do need to invest in a sharpening system of some sort. My story is that I used to hand sharpen, and I THOUGHT I had my tools razor sharp. Then I got a new Sorby Spindlemaster. (Don't buy one, it stays in the bottom of my drawer) Out of the box the Spindlemaster was way sharper than my hand sharpened tools. So that means my sharpening skills are, well, you can gather your own thoughts. So I got a Tormek. A sharp tool is a joy to use. For years, I turned with a dull tool. I thought they were sharp, but they weren't. Any sharpening system will make your turning much more productive and enjoyable. Of course, what is the "best" is a whole argument thread that has been beaten to death on this forum. There is no "best", just what you are comfortable with. Naturally, I'd reccomend the Tormek. Most people here like the Wolverine.

Sorry for the long story.

I'd love a Tormek, but it's out of my price range for now. I'm pretty happy with the Wolverine, sure beats trying to learn free-hand! and it seems well made and pretty well thought-out. If I had it to do over again, I'd probably get the original VeriGrind for gouges, instead of the VG 2, which is bulky and kinda awkward, AFAIC. Biggest problem is knowing what I want the gouge to look like.

Well, the shop's warm now, time to go to work. It was 38 degrees when I started up the pellet stove, now it's at least 50! Thanks for the input.

[Curt Fuller]

I didn't read every post so I apologize if I'm repeating something already said. But I've found that it isn't the brand of tool that makes as much difference as it is the grind, particularly with gouges. I've found that a 1/2" bowl gouge is pretty universal but that having several that are ground with different shapes seems be very handy. And with time you'll learn to like a particular shape and use it most of the time. Same thing with spindle gouges, I have several 3/8" that are ground differently. And what I consider the perfect grind will probably be difficult for the next guy to make work. So I think it's a personal preference and experience combination you're working towards.

Now I'm going to endorse Doug Thompson's tools for the simple fact that they're such a good tool for the money. You can make you're own handles that fit your hands and size, they're good steel, and they come in different flute shapes so you can experiment with what you like best. It's my opinion that you pay a lot of money when you buy handled tools just for a piece of wood.

[Jamie Straw]

Reply to Jake: Thanks for all the suggestions, with specifics. I'm missing replies occasionally -- navigation gets a little confusing in these long threads. Yes, I've replaced the grinding wheels. The new course wheel sucks though, returning that and ordering a Norton.

Waiting for a horse to dry this afternoon, I pulled out the laptop and watched more of Turning Wood (new), especially sharpening, using the skew, and some bead/cove stuff. Had some time last night to read Raffan also (no time to turn though). All adding up to getting focused on some practice sessions!