I thought I had it all figured out - TS decision [Archive]

Victor Robinson

12-23-2009, 9:14 AM

After much deliberation, I had decided my first TS would be a portable - the Bosch 4100.

I was planning on pulling the trigger shortly after Christmas. The cost for one of these is around $600.

Now, after obsessively reading more and more, I can't help but wonder if this would be a bad choice. What I gain in portability I lose in accuracy, as many seem to report problems with non-dead-flat tables and out of square fences. The portability was important mainly because my "shop" is a two-car tandem garage that tends to house two cars most of the time - the ability to fold up the saw and tuck it away seemed vital. And it probably is. As for moving it from place to place, not to important - I anticipate it may have to be moved *once* and back when I help my folks with a deck project later in 2010. Basically, it's meant to be a weekend woodworking saw that needs to live in rather tight quarters.

But now I'm trying to talk myself into seeing if I can find the space to squeeze in a hybrid saw. This will probably require sacrificing some of the garage/shop storage I had planned. But the pros would be quieter operation (important - attached San Francisco houses suck in that respect), improved accuracy, and possibly a better investment. Cons would be losing some of the safety features of the Bosch (antikickback pawls) and of course, losing the portability. I never planned on ripping sheet goods with my saw anyways, so that's a non-issue. The fact that the Bosch can only take a 1/2" dado stack was also not a big deal for me as I was planning on just substituting the router when necessary. I'm looking at the Grizzly 0444, which has been discontinued and is offered at $589 including freight.

Whatever I buy will be used on 110V - just don't have the budget to wire the garage for 220V...electrical work around here costs an arm and a leg.

I need help. I think you're all going to tell me that if I can find the space for the Grizz...

scott spencer

12-23-2009, 9:18 AM

Bob Borzelleri

12-23-2009, 9:25 AM

I went the portable route and ended up selling to my neighbor within 2 months. Stability, accuracy, versatility; you name it. The only place where the portable shined was movability.

Unless you have to have a tool that you can toss around and be satisfied with barely adequate cuts, I'd go with something in the full size world.

Victor Robinson

12-23-2009, 9:30 AM

Zach England

12-23-2009, 9:30 AM

I had that Bosch as my first half-decent saw and I sold it after a few months. I regret having ever bought it. It is not bad for what it is--in fact I'd say it is an excellent portable saw, but no substitute for a full-size cabinet saw with an aftermarket miter gauge. I ended up buying a used Jet for slightly more than I paid for the Bosch. The difference in capability was a whole new world for me. I could never get the kind of accuracy on the Bosch that I get on the Jet. Really, the Bosch is a jobsite tool. It is excellent for trim work but does not make the cut for jointery.

Plus the Jet looks so much cooler.

James White

12-23-2009, 9:32 AM

Victor,

If I were in your shoes I would be calling every Home Depot within driving distance in order to find one of the Ridgid r4511. It is on sale for $499 and there may even still be a Ridgid rebate still going as well. There is a forum on the Ridgid web page if you would like to learn more about this saw and up to date info regarding price and availability.

James

Cory Hoehn

12-23-2009, 9:44 AM

I, too, have a two car garage, er shop, that has to do double duty. I had a Craftsman portable saw until a month or so ago. I sold it on Craig's list and bought a Ridgid 4511. I can't even begin to tell you the difference in stability and accuracy. I used a HF 20% off coupon at Home Depot (they honor competitor's coupons) and got it, an 8" dado stack, AND a planer for less than $800.

The built in mobile base is pretty good and it allows me to get the saw out of the way, even though it's nearly 500 pounds. It's not as portable as the craftsman or a Bosch 4100, but I can still get two cars in the garage and I've got a much better saw.

Good luck!

Jeff Monson

12-23-2009, 9:48 AM

Save yourself the headache of reselling the portable saw and buy a cabinet saw.

My 1st tablesaw purchase was going to be a portable dewalt, I was in my local ww store and a salesman asked to help me out, I told him my intentions and he talked me into a contractors saw instead. Best move I could have made at the time, 2 years later and I sold it to upgrade to a cabinet saw.

Brent Ring

12-23-2009, 12:19 PM

The full size saws have ALL the advantages except for portability. Since you're not actually slinging the saw in the back of a truck and moving it from site to site, many folks in your situation who get portables end up not really folding them down out of the way and wind up treating it more like a stationary saw.

I think the benefits of the bigger saw are well worth the extra space it occupies. Not that the Bosch won't cut well, but you'll get a lot more saw for the money from a full size stationary saw.

I purchased a Ridgid 2400TS and while it has built some fun furniture at my home, it has not been folded up - hardly ever, and I regret the money spent, when it could have been better spent on a hybrid or cabinet saw. I am now planning to purchase either a PM2000 or a SS hybrid. I wish I had asked more questions and done more research ahead of time. I might not get to have YET another woodworkers learning experience, with all the associated costs and headaches. You are wise to ask questions here and now first. The saw that should be at the bottom of your list should be the Ridgid 4511, and go up from there, IMHO!;)

Augusto Orosco

12-23-2009, 12:32 PM

I too have a two car garage and a Bosch 4000 (older model). While it has served me well, I can't wait to get a real cabinet saw.

1) It is loud, as you would expect from that kind of motor and no belts. My 3HP Grizzly jointer, on the other hand, purrs like a kitten. I would use my jointer anytime of the night; not so the saw.

2) I think it's accurate enough, but cabinet saws can do much better

3) One of my biggest complaints: The distance between the blade and the front of the table is too short. This makes it really tricky to properly square the wood against the fence for ripping. Anything longer than 2' requires a lot of care to start the cut and keep it straight. Haven't had a real kickback yet, but I had to stop the saw a few times because the piece was not being ripped straight (granted, some of this might be due to poor technique on my part, but life could me much easier with more space at the front).

4) The tires add some variability to the height. I have to keep them at the right pressure so the height of the saw remains constant and leveled. This might not sound like a biggie, but I have an unleveled floor and use rolling outfeed table. If the tires are not right and the table is in the wrong spot in the garage, the outfeed table ends up taller than the table (obviously not a good thing).

5) I don't fold it anymore. Even though the stand is great, I have found that the table can fit against the back wall and a car can still park comfortably (not a huge car, but even a mid size SUV could fit). This is why I believe I can make a cabinet saw work: Their footprint is not much bigger (unless you get them with extra ripping capacity... but you said you don't need it); and with a mobile base, I could move it just the same as I do now with the Bosch.

Which ever route you take, I'd suggest getting a good quality blade. It makes a big difference. I have a Freud combo blade and it does a great job.

Bob Borzelleri

12-23-2009, 12:34 PM

Can I check some of my assumptions with you guys?

1) The Grizzly would be quieter in operation? Again, attached SF houses. Not that I plan on using it in the dead of night...

2) I would be able to disassemble and move the thing once in a blue moon? My wife and I aren't terribly burly, and our "hauling" vehicle is merely a Rav.

Victor...

It's been several years since I bailed on the portable saw I started out with, but it seems to me that it was louder than my current Delta 34-444.

As for disassembling and moving a saw, there is no question that one of the portables will fill the bill and most, if not all quality contractor, hybrids and cabinets will be a pain, if not impossible to easily disassemble and put into a RAV.

You will need to prioritize your needs before making this decision. You can have portability or stable/accurate cuts; choose one.

...Bob

Cary Falk

12-23-2009, 12:43 PM

Ain't analysis paralysis fun? I started out with a Craftsman portable. I was/am working out of a 3 car garage where all 3 cars had to go back in. The portable was a joke, The table was Aluminum. The fence would not lock down square and universal motor was underpowered. I did uses it for 2 years until the motor died. From what I understand, the portable saws of today are of much better quality.

I moved up to a Delta contractor saw on a mobile base. I was able to tuck it away between the 2 garage doors. I did have to remove the motor each time to lessen it's footprint and to keep the cars from hitting it. The difference in accuracy and lack of flustration was huge. In all honesty, it did everything I needed it to do. Dust collection was a bit lacking and alignment was a pain when I titled the blade. This saw lasted me a couple of years.

I eventually succumbed to the evil forces:D of a couple of theses forums and purchased a 1970 Unisaw that I rebuilt from the ground up. It would have still been able to be tucked away but I decided that I wanted a 50" fence. I also decided that my truck would sit outside in return for better tools that I didn't have to tuck in every corner.

I'm not saying get a cabinet saw. Everybody's situation is different. You said you have a 220V limitation. An old Uni with a <2hp motor would be great if you could find one. Otherwise, I think the hybrid is the way to go for you. I think you will be happier in the long run. It is a shame about the 220V because you can get a GO1023 for about the price of a hybrid.

Just my $0.02.
Cary

Victor Robinson

12-23-2009, 1:05 PM

Thanks a million for all of your advice and input, guys. I really appreciate it.

Those of you with contractor or hybrid saws, would you mind measuring the footprint next time you're in the shop? I know I can pull dimensions off the website, but I'm more interested in "real world" footprint - including outfeed support and how much space you find you need to have around the saw to work comfortably. I need to figure out if I really have space for one of these or not.

I'll also look into the cost of 220V. The clothes dryer lives in the garage too and the breaker panel is all right there. I'm comfortable with *some* electrical work, but this would be too advanced methinks.

glenn bradley

12-23-2009, 1:05 PM

Analysis is indeed part of the fun. One of the joys of the available forums (some of them anyway), is the ability to learn from others experience. This means I have made many decisions without having to pay for the bad ones I might have made. My thanks once again to SMC and other fine knowledge sharing forums.

Some of this thread has a tone that indicates that the Bosch and other job site saws are poor; they're not. If I try to tow a 5th wheel with my Volkswagon and experience poor results, the VW is not poor, my application of it is improper. I don't need the best of everything but I don't expect the best performance of a given task by a tool that is not designed to provide it.

Portable saws make many, many, many concessions in order to be portable. The highlights of a good portable saw are lightweight, ease of setup and teardown and so forth. Noise, dust collection, power, accuracy and all that is somewhere down the list but, they are down the list. I would buy a tool for what you plan to do with it most of the time. This will make you happy most of the time and only make you less-than-happy when you try to move it around ;-)

One thing I will guarantee, if you try to find a saw that will be "all things" (just like a blade that will perform "all cuts") you will end up with a "beige" saw. By that I mean the saw will be many things to many people, bearable by many but not really desired by anyone.

Victor Robinson

12-23-2009, 1:17 PM

Analysis is indeed part of the fun. One of the joys of the available forums (some of them anyway), is the ability to learn from others experience. This means I have made many decisions without having to pay for the bad ones I might have made.

Some of this thread has a tone that indicates that the Bosch and other job site saws are poor; they're not. If I try to tow a 5th wheel with my Volkswagon and experience poor results, there is nothing wrong with the VW, just my application of it.

Portable saws make many, many, many concessions in order to be portable. I would buy a tool for what you plan to do with it most of the time. This will make you happy most of the time and only make you less-than-happy when you try to move it around ;-) One thing I will guarantee, if you try to find a saw that will be "all things" (just like a blade that will perform "all cuts") you will end up with a "beige" saw. By that I mean the saw will be many things to many people, bearable to many but not really good for anyone.

Thank you Glenn. You're a wise man. I figured out that accuracy and stability were most important to me - I want to be able to do joinery accurately. I want a fence that I know just works, not one I need to check every time I adjust. I want a dead-flat table. I figured if I was going to be paying $600 for a portable, it would be stupid not to consider larger saws because the portable was making me compromise on the *functional* aspect most important to me. Half of the portability appeal was to appease SWMBO, who is less than elated over my desire to use large, expensive tools that can remove appendages, even if they help produce furniture or jewelry chests or other things she may like.

Joe Zieger

12-23-2009, 5:03 PM

As one newbie to another, I started with a craftsman contractor, then got a rockwell (cut part of my finger off, cutting shims, yah I know stupid is as stupid does) after the finger episode I got a deta hybrid and found a 50" unifence to go with it, as I told the wife I could build our kitchen cabs with that, so I started with building some base cabs for the garage and this is the first time in my life I can take a square and put it anywhere on or in the cabinet and it's square, wow just about messed my self:eek:. i fought and strugled with the craftsman for years never again. Buy quality FIRST it pays for itself very quickly and no frustration.

cheers

Carroll Courtney

12-23-2009, 5:14 PM

At lease buying a Griz will give you some rm to move up to a better saw in the future,such as a PM,SS,Uni,Gen.:D Just my opinion---Carroll

Chris Harry

12-23-2009, 5:18 PM

I went thru this dilemma. Bought a TS2400 on Black Friday for a good deal.

Then they started clearancing the 3650/3660. Sold the TS2400 for the same price I paid, picked up the 3660 for about 50 bux more after coupon and clearance price. Then of course the Ultimate Power Tool sale "forced" me to return the 3660 (I was within my 90 days but the saw was built...HD took it back anyway), and bought the 4511.

The interesting thing is that I never once folded up the 2400 when I had it. I figured "hey portable has to be great for my small shop", but it took up only a little less space than a "real" table saw, because I never folded it. I never really needed portability, I just wanted a smaller footprint.

A little rearranging of my shop and I fit the 3660 and 4511 in without a problem. In fact the 4511 fits even better, because of the motor being inboard.

If I had to do it all over again, and pay full price for the 2410 or the Bosch, Id use the $$$ and buy a full size, and rearrange what I need to to make it fit.

-Chris

Dean Karavite

12-23-2009, 5:21 PM

Victor, I had the Bosch and now have a contractor saw. I built a lot of nice things with the Bosch, it was always dead on for me, but with a bigger saw there is no comparison, especially for joinery. My new saw is on a mobile base, but the table is about 60" by 27" - way too big to roll out the way for your cars (perhaps - many people have done amazing things with limited space - quite a few small workshop issues of the various magazines and books to give you ideas).

I'd hate to see you get the Bosch new or any portable because the investment is large enough where there is a very good chance you will regret it and wish you had spent it on a larger saw, but you will not be able to recuperate your investment when you go to sell it. That is what happened to me. I sold my Bosch for about $300 and it worked great. If you are going with a smaller saw, why not look for a used Bosch or other good portable and see how it works out?

One other thought. Have you thought about a good bandsaw? Small footprint, lots of versatility... It may just be me, because I am really obsessing for a new bandsaw.

Myk Rian

12-23-2009, 5:50 PM

I had a POS C-man and bought a Steel City Hybrid. Glad I did.
I have 1/2 of the garage and it sits by the door. I made the rest of the shop work around the saw.
Buy what you'll be happy with and don't look back.

Cary Falk

12-23-2009, 6:04 PM

Another thing that came to mind was make sure whatever saw you buy will accept aftermarket accessories. Does it have a standard miter slot, etc. My Craftsman did not. I don't know if the Ridgid, Bosch, etc protables do.

Rob Holcomb

12-23-2009, 6:21 PM

I have to agree with all of the posters on this topic. Any kind of contractor or cabinet saw will outshine a portable in all ways except portability. You have a Rav and the concern is being able to knock it down and transport it on rare occasions. Have you given any thought to borrowing a pickup truck or buying/renting a small utility trailer to transport a bigger saw so you wouldn't have to take anything apart? I had an old craftsman contractor saw that I would move from time to time and although it was heavy and not the easiest thing to put on my utility trailer, the extra 10 minutes of grunts and groans far outweighed the hours I would have spent taking it apart, re-assembling and making sure everything was ready for sawing. Just make sure if you use a trailer that it has a ramp. It helps immensely!

Bill ThompsonNM

12-23-2009, 7:15 PM

Get a hybrid or cabinet saw now--you won't regret it. When it comes time go build that deck you were talking about, rent a Bosch or buy a f
used portable saw --it sure sounds like the market should be flooded with them!
Actually I've built quite a few decks and I can't imagine using anything but my worm drive skilsaw--it's not furniture after all.

David Prince

12-23-2009, 7:58 PM

Based on your future plans and what you have available to you at this time, a contractor saw would meet all of your immediate goals. I think you should strongly consider it as an option. The footprint between a contractor, hybrid, and cabinet isn't really all that different unless you have the extended fence. The weight difference is "huge". A contractor saw could be lifted and transported easily. Not so once you upgrade. The noise issue is not an issue based on my past saws.

scott spencer

12-23-2009, 10:42 PM

A saw with a belt drive induction motor will be noticeably quieter than a direct drive with a universal motor.

A traditional contractor saw will have the largest footprint of a standard size "full size" saw because of the motor hanging out the back. A hybrid and cabinet saw will take up less space because the motor is housed inside the cabinet.

Paul Murphy

12-23-2009, 10:50 PM

I started with a Delta contractor's saw, 110V. I now have a Powermatic 66 with twice the power, but honestly I could still get by with the smaller Delta. The Delta was easy to sell, folks recognize it's value.

The Delta ran a full sized dado set when needed.

Truthfully the real "footprint" of a saw is defined by the work you want it to do. If you rip 8' boards and cut plywood in half, even a benchtop saw needs 16' in one direction and 8' in the other. Think about what size boards/sheets/panels you are likely to process, and that will define your fence and footprint.

Alan Schwabacher

12-23-2009, 11:20 PM

If you run the saws without cutting anything, the portable saw with universal motor may make a higher pitched and less pleasant sound than the other saws. But once you start cutting, that sound will be what you hear with either.

Get a mobile base for your saw, and you can easily move it between working and storage position. How much space it takes depends on what you mean. The saw itself is of similar size for all types, and is frequently supported by a stand or cabinet. Then there are wings on the sides of the top that stick out further, but the space under these is available for storage. In a pinch you could remove one or both wings to dramatically shrink the space required. You would not want to remove and replace them frequently, but it is reversible.

The rails for mounting the fence can be of various lengths. While many people prefer enormous ones that give you 52" to the right of the blade, you probably don't. (Notice that nominal rail lengths are not the full length, but the distance from the blade to the near edge of the fence when it's fully extended.) This would require much more space, and since you say you are not interested in sheet goods, is not what you want.

As mentioned, the contractor saw has a larger storage footprint than the hybrid or cabinet saw because of the motor hanging out the back, but it's not a lot. Whether it matters depends on how it fits into the space you have.

You don't need an outfeed table permanently attached. Some sort of roller stand or flip up table is useful, but need not take up storage space. The space needed for use is much larger than that for storage. Even large shops usually overlap the infeed and outfeed space for various machines that will not be used at the same time. That can almost certainly be taken by a parked car.

If you really don't have space for a tablesaw, and you plan on working with all solid wood and no sheet goods, the suggestion to consider a bandsaw instead (for now) is reasonable. It's got a much smaller footprint, is quieter, and in contrast to a portable tablesaw, will remain valuable if you do later get a tablesaw. It gives you different capabilities.

William M Johnson

12-24-2009, 9:39 AM

One more opinion.

I started out with the Ridgid contractor saw and moved to a PM66 (w/ slider and overarm blade guard/dust collector). The Ridgid is a great saw and I still own it. I have broken down 3/4" plywood by my self. A big key to it is the mobile base. It is light years better than either the Bosch or DeWalt. Rock solid.

I have had no problem with the fence being out of line. I have cut many dados with it (all in plywood for cabinets). I now only use it for Habitat for Humanity projects or if I get too much crap piled on the PM66.

Having said all of this I just pulled the trigger on the EZ system tracksaw. Pretty impressive. Something is going to have to go.

I bought the Ridgid for the portability reasons before I built my shop. Don't dismiss it.

Bill

Jason White

12-24-2009, 9:48 AM

If you have already have a dedicated 120-volt circuit with 12/2 (with ground) romex or BX/MC, you can convert it to 220-volts by simply swapping out the circuit breaker (from a single-pole to a 20-amp dual-pole) and replacing the outlet with a 3-prong 20 amp/220 volt outlet. If the breaker panel is nearby, it's a no-brainer. If electrical work scares you, go to Home Depot and purchase the book "wiring 1-2-3." Or call an electrician -- sounds like a $200-300 job at best.

Much cheaper and easier to do a quick wiring upgrade yourself than end up with a saw that you'll be less than satisfied with.

Jason

After much deliberation, I had decided my first TS would be a portable - the Bosch 4100.

I was planning on pulling the trigger shortly after Christmas. The cost for one of these is around $600.

Now, after obsessively reading more and more, I can't help but wonder if this would be a bad choice. What I gain in portability I lose in accuracy, as many seem to report problems with non-dead-flat tables and out of square fences. The portability was important mainly because my "shop" is a two-car tandem garage that tends to house two cars most of the time - the ability to fold up the saw and tuck it away seemed vital. And it probably is. As for moving it from place to place, not to important - I anticipate it may have to be moved *once* and back when I help my folks with a deck project later in 2010. Basically, it's meant to be a weekend woodworking saw that needs to live in rather tight quarters.

But now I'm trying to talk myself into seeing if I can find the space to squeeze in a hybrid saw. This will probably require sacrificing some of the garage/shop storage I had planned. But the pros would be quieter operation (important - attached San Francisco houses suck in that respect), improved accuracy, and possibly a better investment. Cons would be losing some of the safety features of the Bosch (antikickback pawls) and of course, losing the portability. I never planned on ripping sheet goods with my saw anyways, so that's a non-issue. The fact that the Bosch can only take a 1/2" dado stack was also not a big deal for me as I was planning on just substituting the router when necessary. I'm looking at the Grizzly 0444, which has been discontinued and is offered at $589 including freight.

Whatever I buy will be used on 110V - just don't have the budget to wire the garage for 220V...electrical work around here costs an arm and a leg.

I need help. I think you're all going to tell me that if I can find the space for the Grizz...

Victor Robinson

12-24-2009, 10:14 AM