Smooth Planing Scratches

[Walter Cleeson]

I am about at the end of my rope with this. I have been experimenting with my fairly recently acquired stash of Stanley planes. I have a #3, #4 and #5. I have lapped the soles, tuned as best I can and sharpened the blades. I have replaced the blades with Hocks.

Most of my practice has been on soft (cheap!) big box wood. I have watched and purchased videos on using and tuning planes. I have not had any personal hands-on instruction, training or even observation.

With all the being said, nothing I have tried has eliminated the predictable occurrence of scratches when I perform what should be the smoothing of a surface. It doesn't matter how thin the shavings are, what angle I plane at or what plane I use (mostly the #3 and #4).

One of the original blades on the #4 had some pretty significant camber on the corners and even that blade leaves scratches in the surface. They are wavy lines. I can't figure out exactly where they come from.

I call myself checking the depth of the blade for consistency and I am pretty sure the soles are flat.

I am out of ideas. I don't want to spend $200 - $300 on a new e LV or LN and still wind up with the same problems. If it's me and my lack of talent (highly likely!), no tool is going to help.

Is there anything I am missing? Is it time to ebay the whole lot of them and go back to sanding? I really enjoy planing and producing shavings. But the end result is less than satisfying.

Thanks.

-Walter

[Richard Magbanua]

any dings or scratches in the soles or the mouths? Can you take a picture of the scratches? Try rubbing the planes over the wood with the blades backed off and see if you still get scratches.

[Randy Klein]

My bet is in the sharpness of your iron. What "grit" do you sharpen to?

[Prashun Patel]

Is your blade laterally adjusted properly? If not, then it can leave 'tracks'. Are you cutting thoughout the width of yr blades - or in one corner?

If the problem is truly scratches - and not tracks, then I also think your blade just isn't honed to a high enough degree. If you get hurried with power sharpening, you can heat up and ruin the temper of the blade, which will cause it to develop a brittle edge. Sometimes it's so bad, you can SEE the brittle edge - even if yr sharpening up through the mirror polish grits. If that happens, you either need to regrind the blade or get a new one... DAMHIKT....

[Walter Cleeson]

any dings or scratches in the soles or the mouths? Can you take a picture of the scratches? Try rubbing the planes over the wood with the blades backed off and see if you still get scratches.

Richard, I had that same thought. I did back off the blade and ran the plane sole only across the surface. I didn't get any scratches that I could see, but for good measure I did run a file around the edges. It would seem unlikely that all three planes had the same problems, but hey, maybe I screwed them ALL up with my lapping technique (sandpaper on plate glass).:)

I may try to post some pics.

Thanks.

[Walter Cleeson]

My bet is in the sharpness of your iron. What "grit" do you sharpen to?

Randy I use a WS 3000 and go up to the 6000 paper on it. They shave hair off of my arm and I get pretty thin shavings.

I am curious why the sharpness or lack of would cause scratches? I actually get scratches with a new hock blade that I haven't sharpened.

[Walter Cleeson]

Is your blade laterally adjusted properly? If not, then it can leave 'tracks'. Are you cutting thoughout the width of yr blades - or in one corner?

If the problem is truly scratches - and not tracks, then I also think your blade just isn't honed to a high enough degree. If you get hurried with power sharpening, you can heat up and ruin the temper of the blade, which will cause it to develop a brittle edge. Sometimes it's so bad, you can SEE the brittle edge - even if yr sharpening up through the mirror polish grits. If that happens, you either need to regrind the blade or get a new one... DAMHIKT....

Shawn, they may very well be tracks, not scratches. I don't know the difference.I guess I need to post a pic or two.

I have made a valiant effort to set the depth uniformly with the lateral adjuster. I use the "rub the stick on the bottom to get consistent drag" method before I hit the wood. That's as precise as I know how. I can't say I always get a full width shaving, no matter how much I adjust while planing.

Another thing I have not been able to figure out from watching and reading is how hard I need to press down. I know how to vary the pressure from front to back, but should I really have to bear down for smoothing? After seeing that wise guy Ron Cosman push a plane across a board and get a shaving with just one hand on the tote, I just get more frustrated. :D

I sharpen to 25 degrees on the WS3000.This happens even on a new blade that I haven't touched, so even if I am overheating the blades when I sharpen, I have taken that out of the equation with a new blade.

[John Keeton]

Is it possible you have the mouth too tight and are piling up wood shards that are marring the surface? Are you waxing the plane?

[Walter Cleeson]

Sorry, but these were the best pictures I could get.

[Walter Cleeson]

Is it possible you have the mouth too tight and are piling up wood shards that are marring the surface? Are you waxing the plane?

John, I have tried closing the mouth down as best I could. It's a pain with an old Bailey with no frog adjustment screw in the back, but I have tried. I do wax the sole.

I will try and watch for the shards. That makes sense. Thanks.

[James Scheffler]

When I first started planing, with pine from one of the big box stores, I thought I was putting scratches in the wood. This had me tearing my hair out. After a while, I figured out that some of the "scratches" were actually natural defects in the wood. They showed up as wavy lines. Sometimes I could turn the board over and see a similar line in about the same place on the other side. Try running your fingernail lightly across the scratch and see if there is an indentation.

Some of the scratches were in fact just scratches. They were typically caused by a little chip getting caught in the mouth or by the lateral adjustment of the blade being a little off.

Good luck figuring this out!

Jim

[Michael Faurot]

Based on what I can discern from the pictures of the planed wood surfaces, I see various sets of parallel lines. Are those the area of complaint? If so, it looks like the same effect one would get with a scratch stock or beading tool, which leads me to think maybe there are some nicks in the blade.

How about posting some pictures of the blade edge, bottom of the plane, areas around the mouth both from the bottom and the top?

[Zach England]

The problem is your planes. Buy a LN and the problem will go away. :)

Do these occur at the edge of the iron? It could be that the iron has too "sharp" a corner.

I am pretty new to planes too, and I originally started using a WS 3000, but have since relegated it to stropping and I do the actual sharpening/honing with a Veritas honing guide. They have an accessory you can buy for it where the roller is tapered slightly toward the ends making a slightly rounded edge easy to obtain.

Seriously, when I defenestrated the worksharp my plane performance got much better and the sharpening actually now takes less time.

[Jim Koepke]

Walter,

Your profile does not show your location. You may be close to another Creeker who is willing to offer hands on help with this.

A few thoughts and questions on the problem.

Are the scratches being left at the edge of the blade?

When taking a thin shaving, is it one piece from side to side or does it come out in ribbons.

You may have the mouth set too tight. A tight mouth will tend to pick up splinters that will scratch the wood.

One problem with the cheap borg wood is the knots. These will put a nick in a blade just as bad as hitting a staple or nail.

Make sure you are planing with the grain. If you go against the grain, you will get tear out which may look like scratches. Try turning the board around.

My way of setting up a plane works for me. It may work for you. After a blade is sharpened and reinstalled, a piece of scrap wood is held on the bench. The plane is set on the wood and as it is being pushed along the length of the board the blade is slowly lowered. It may take a few attempts at this until a shaving emerges from the mouth. Stop adjusting at this time and see if the shaving is coming from the center or from one side or the other. Adjust the lateral lever as needed. On the Stanley, this is pushed to the side with the thicker shaving. Do not try to judge adjustment by looking at the blade to mouth position. Adjust by the results, the results are telling what is happening.

You should not have to put a lot of pressure on the plane to make shavings. If a lot of pressure is needed, you may have a concave sole.

jim

[Don Naples]

A good way to check the condition of the plane iron edge is to use a loupe (30X is better than 10x for this task). I use a pocket microscope that has an LED light. It is 60x to 100x and costs about $20. It really does a good job of showing flaws in the edges of tools and is very easy to use as the focus can be adjusted so you only have to hold it directly against the tool. You can also see if there are flaws in the plane sole that you can not see by eye. Looking at the size of the scratches in your board, I think these would be easy to see, but obviously not.

If you do have an plane iron edge problem, check the flatness of the back of the iron. I often see irons and chisels with dubbed backs. Use a sheet of fine abrasive placed on a reference flat surface and take a single swipe of the back of the iron. The scratches should reach the cutting edge. Often they don't, which can make sharpening to its sharpest achievable edge more difficult.

[Randy Klein]

Randy I use a WS 3000 and go up to the 6000 paper on it. They shave hair off of my arm and I get pretty thin shavings.

I am curious why the sharpness or lack of would cause scratches? I actually get scratches with a new hock blade that I haven't sharpened.

The scratches come from not having a smooth edge, which is slightly different than a sharp edge, although some may argue about that definition. An edge that is sharp, but not smooth, means you didn't spend enough time on each grit progression to work out the scratches from the previous grit. Shaving hair with an iron does not equate to smooth.

Are you doing microbevels or honing the entire bevel? I would go back and re-sharpen and spend what you may consider an inordinate of time on each grit to ensure you are done at that level. Your idea of sharpness is always changing.

What you may think is sharp now, you won't think is sharp a year from now.

[Chris S Anderson]

I took a sharpening class at Woodcraft, and the instructor would run his thumb nail across the bevel of the blade to feel for nooks or uneveness. I had a nick in one of mine, it must have been just a few microns, but it was making a tread in my curly maple that you could feel with your finger. The instructor was able to find the flaw when he ran his thumb over my blade.

[Prashun Patel]

Your idea of sharpness is always changing.
What you may think is sharp now, you won't think is sharp a year from now.

True, that!

And to answer yr question about how much push force to use - the thicker the cut, the harder the push. So, jointers and scrubs can require a lot of force. A smoother tuned to take a thin cut shouldn't require much force at all. I'd still use 2 hands just for stability, though.

Ginsu!

[Walter Cleeson]

When I first started planing, with pine from one of the big box stores, I thought I was putting scratches in the wood. This had me tearing my hair out. After a while, I figured out that some of the "scratches" were actually natural defects in the wood. They showed up as wavy lines. Sometimes I could turn the board over and see a similar line in about the same place on the other side. Try running your fingernail lightly across the scratch and see if there is an indentation.

Some of the scratches were in fact just scratches. They were typically caused by a little chip getting caught in the mouth or by the lateral adjustment of the blade being a little off.

Good luck figuring this out!

Jim

Jim, definitely scratches/ridges unfortunately. They are easy to feel. Thanks

[Walter Cleeson]

The problem is your planes. Buy a LN and the problem will go away. :)

Do these occur at the edge of the iron? It could be that the iron has too "sharp" a corner.

I am pretty new to planes too, and I originally started using a WS 3000, but have since relegated it to stropping and I do the actual sharpening/honing with a Veritas honing guide. They have an accessory you can buy for it where the roller is tapered slightly toward the ends making a slightly rounded edge easy to obtain.

Seriously, when I defenestrated the worksharp my plane performance got much better and the sharpening actually now takes less time.

I am not sure where they occur. I assumed it was the edge, but even with a cambered iron, I still get them.

I do have some waterstones and may resharpen one of the blades on those to see what happens.

[Walter Cleeson]

Walter,

Your profile does not show your location. You may be close to another Creeker who is willing to offer hands on help with this.

A few thoughts and questions on the problem.

Are the scratches being left at the edge of the blade?

When taking a thin shaving, is it one piece from side to side or does it come out in ribbons.

You may have the mouth set too tight. A tight mouth will tend to pick up splinters that will scratch the wood.

One problem with the cheap borg wood is the knots. These will put a nick in a blade just as bad as hitting a staple or nail.

Make sure you are planing with the grain. If you go against the grain, you will get tear out which may look like scratches. Try turning the board around.

My way of setting up a plane works for me. It may work for you. After a blade is sharpened and reinstalled, a piece of scrap wood is held on the bench. The plane is set on the wood and as it is being pushed along the length of the board the blade is slowly lowered. It may take a few attempts at this until a shaving emerges from the mouth. Stop adjusting at this time and see if the shaving is coming from the center or from one side or the other. Adjust the lateral lever as needed. On the Stanley, this is pushed to the side with the thicker shaving. Do not try to judge adjustment by looking at the blade to mouth position. Adjust by the results, the results are telling what is happening.

You should not have to put a lot of pressure on the plane to make shavings. If a lot of pressure is needed, you may have a concave sole.

jim

Jim, I am not sure if they come from the edge or not.

I do mostly get ribbons, but sometime wider shavings. Rarely consistent full width unless I go heavy. I have tried reversing the board.

When I first began planing, I used your method for blade adjustment. After having such bad luck, I tried running a stick across the blade. Neither has been that successful for me.

I have tried different mouth opening sizes too.

I do somethings feel like a need to press too hard. Maybe the soles are concave. What puzzles me is that it happens to some degree on all three planes. Is it possible all are concave? My straight edge doesn't seem to show that. But maybe my eyes are that bad. Could be!:(


Thanks for your feedback.

[Walter Cleeson]

A good way to check the condition of the plane iron edge is to use a loupe (30X is better than 10x for this task). I use a pocket microscope that has an LED light. It is 60x to 100x and costs about $20. It really does a good job of showing flaws in the edges of tools and is very easy to use as the focus can be adjusted so you only have to hold it directly against the tool. You can also see if there are flaws in the plane sole that you can not see by eye. Looking at the size of the scratches in your board, I think these would be easy to see, but obviously not.

If you do have an plane iron edge problem, check the flatness of the back of the iron. I often see irons and chisels with dubbed backs. Use a sheet of fine abrasive placed on a reference flat surface and take a single swipe of the back of the iron. The scratches should reach the cutting edge. Often they don't, which can make sharpening to its sharpest achievable edge more difficult.
]
Don't have a loupe handy, but I'll find something to zoom in. Thanks

[Walter Cleeson]

Chris and Shawn,

I am going to try manual sharpening to see if that helps. Maybe the brand new Hocks are not sharp enough either.

Thanks all!

[Sam Takeuchi]

Brand new blades don't come sharp. You really need to do prep work first to get satisfactory result of any kind.

[Randy Klein]

Brand new blades don't come sharp. You really need to do prep work first to get satisfactory result of any kind.

Also, are you sharpening both sides of the bevel, i.e. the back as well?

[Pam Niedermayer]

I could make a case for chatter causing these problems, but first would have to see/try the planes as chatter would be caused by the blade sticking too far out of the mouth. If this is the case, it in turn could be required to get bite with a dished sole.

Pam

[Mark Roderick]

I'll just offer my consolation. It's terrible when you're trying to learn something and can't figure out what you're doing wrong! I've been there many times myself.

If the blade was new and you're shaving hair off your arms, the blade is PLENTY sharp enough to plane pine smoothly. So that's not the problem. I'm assuming that you've lapped the back of the blade to the same fine grit.

Defects in the sole of the plane can lead to scratching, but those should then be noticeable when you rub the plane on the wood without a blade.

To answer your question, you push down hard. You can't push down too hard.

Do the "defects" you see come out with sandpaper? Can you feel them? Is it possible they're just the fine grain of the wood that your planing is revealing?

You'll figure it out. Sometimes it helps to just let it rest a few days and let your brain refresh.

[David Gendron]

Do you have a cambered Iron or sharpened straight across? How close to the cuting hedge is the chip bracker hedge? Is the chip braker applying even pressure across the blade(no gaps when looking with a light)?
Is the frog square to the mouth? Do I have other idea... No

[Walter Cleeson]

Well, thanks guys for all the help. It turns out that the problem was a rough edge. I checked with a magnifier and sure enough, all of my edges had nicks. This is most certainly from knots in the cheap wood as was suggested and all the blades I have probably blasted the knot once or twice. :mad:

I re-sharpened and flattened my blade starting with the 220 waterstone and got all the nicks out. No more tracks!:)

Sorry LN and LV, you will have to wait.

Thanks once again to one and all. I learn something from you guys every day. I am just quiet about it. (where is the lurker icon?)

-Walter

[Prashun Patel]

I think the only way to learn (and appreciate) how to use planes is to have those kinda frustrations - er - learning moments. I prefer to learn from YOUR frustrations rather than mine, so keep on truckin'!

[Walter Cleeson]

I think the only way to learn (and appreciate) how to use planes is to have those kinda frustrations - er - learning moments. I prefer to learn from YOUR frustrations rather than mine, so keep on truckin'!

Definitely learned that the hard way. Had to sharpen 6 blades. :(
BTW, you're welcome.:)

[Eric Brown]

I too have had strange results like yours when planing 2x4 pine.
It was almost like the board was compressing softer areas which would pop back up after the plane went across. I mostly eliminated this problem by getting my blades sharper (I use Shaptons) and not pressing down as hard.
Divide and conquer is one troubleshooting technique.
Try switching to another wood - preferably hardwood.
Poplar is a good choice for this as it has a fairly straight grain.
Keep trying! Good luck!
Eric

[Erik Manchester]

I believe that these scratch marks are from a blade that has zero camber, which makes it too easy to drag a corner and leave a scratch. If I forget to swap blades after shooting I can get these and once I replace the blade with a lightly cambered one they no longer occur.

[Josh Bowman]

any dings or scratches in the soles or the mouths? Can you take a picture of the scratches? Try rubbing the planes over the wood with the blades backed off and see if you still get scratches.
Walter,
Swartz refers to these as plane tracks. They are common and what I do is overlap my cuts or cut with a slight skew. Pat suggests rounding the edges of the blade. If you are using Hocks, the blade back will be flat and the bevel sharp. Try knocking off the extreme edges of the blade to create a slightly round shape. I to am new to the wonder of handtools and it looks like you may have done the same as I and aquired to many to fast. For others making the transistion from power only tool woodworking , I would suggest getting only one old stanley plane, tuning as you think is right and practicing with it. Since they are old look at the soles and insure any nicks are smoothed so as not to be the problem. I have even noted staining form my old planes as they are rubbed across the surface of clean wood, so use a wax candle to lube the sole. I do not as of yet have Hock blades but have gone though quite a learning curve trying to master these things with the original blades. Try what a friend of my suggested to me. Get a GOOD piece of cherry and plane it, see what the result is. Hand planes act different with different wood. I keep a clear piece of cherry, oak and pine to test out each plane. I try to master the plane and find the tool will act slightly different with each wood. I don't know what happened but one day I went from making lots of tracks to burnished wood. Jim K. is right....work your way along the board and lightly lower the blade just until it makes fuzz. Look at where the fuzz is coming out, left or right and adjust. When you make a lateral adjustment, you will start again at lowering the blade. For several months I kept a .002 thickness of cherry on my cube wall at work that a friend gave me from his plane. I changed nothing on my planes except my patiance. In time with practice, I to was making .002 shavings. Give it time, It's technique. With time you will be able to leave the sandpaper in the drawer and with confidence stain and finish the fine burnish left by your planes.
Josh

[Sam Takeuchi]

He wasn't talking about plane tracks. His blade had nicks. And no, even Hock blade needs to be sharpened or honed before touching the wood. Most of reputable replacement blades and tools even come with a note or instruction that says blades are sharp, but greatly benefits from honing. They may be sharp enough to make thick shavings or cut yourself with it, most of the time they are far from sharp enough to do smoothing cut. A lot of them do have tiny nicks here and there.

Also back of the blade may come flat, but it may not. Some blades do come with back absolutely flat, some don't.

Another thing of concern is that sharp doesn't mean the blade's edge is smooth. Like someone mentioned above, smoothness is something of importance. Good example is regular blade and toothed blade. My toothed blade is as sharp as any other, I can shave my arm with it, but edge isn't smooth along the width obviously. For normal blade, chipped and nicked blade can be sharp and microscopically serrated, too. Sharpest blade with chips and nicks will of course leave those marks, just as toothed blade would.

All in all, my advice is that don't think blades come ready when you first buy it. They don't. Even if manufacturer says blades are honed and ready to use, they aren't. Some blades come with filmy coating of some sort that covers the entire blade including the cutting edge. Initial sharpening will remove that. Don't forget to remove it from the back as well. Lastly, if you can see factory grind marks on bevel (or at least along the edge) and back (also along the edge), you don't even need to test to see if they are sharp or if they are ready. They aren't. Both back and bevel along the edge should be smooth and scratch or grinding mark free.

Some stones leave really tiny scratches even if you are at polishing stage. But if you have been sharpening properly, don't get too obsessed about those tiny scratch marks. They are visible, but you won't feel it on wood or affect blade in negative way. Good example is Shapton Pro #8000 and #12000. If you get too obsessed about these scratch marks and try to polish away, you'd be doing it until there is no stone left.

If you are interested to see how blade edge look like in micro/nanoscopic world, I'll show you something interesting. It's actually for Shapton Glass stones, but it's interesting nonethless. Before you see it, I have to tell you it's in Japanese, so I'll tell you what to look for.

Second and third page has properties for the each stone. Each rectangle represents a stone of certain grit number. There are two numbers in darker font. Grit number is expressed in #, grit particle size is expressed in µ. 2D pictures show scratch pattern and are taken using confocal laser microscope. Large pictures at bottom of the page 2 and 3 are 3D picture of scratches made by a certain grit stone, and which grit number is written under the picture. Pictures were taken using atomic force microscope. Size of each area is 30µm x 30µm OR 10µm x 10µm square, 40µm away from the cutting edge. Depth of scratches are expressed in nm. In case if you missed,
1µm = 0.001mm = 0.0000394" (last digit rounded up)
1nm = 0.000001mm = I didn't even try to convert it. Silly number of zeros.

Lastly, material used was Swedish steel and here is the stuff (http://www.shapton.co.jp/GlassSeries_2008_07_01_ver1.pdf)

Oh I forgot to add. There are duplicate grit numbers, but they are made for different tools/steels, so they aren't the same stones.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, I am not sure if they come from the edge or not.

I do mostly get ribbons, but sometime wider shavings. Rarely consistent full width unless I go heavy. I have tried reversing the board.

When I first began planing, I used your method for blade adjustment. After having such bad luck, I tried running a stick across the blade. Neither has been that successful for me.

I have tried different mouth opening sizes too.

I do somethings feel like a need to press too hard. Maybe the soles are concave. What puzzles me is that it happens to some degree on all three planes. Is it possible all are concave? My straight edge doesn't seem to show that. But maybe my eyes are that bad. Could be!:(


Thanks for your feedback.


Walter,

Glad you seem to have gotten a little further along with this.

My beginnings with hand planes was similar to yours. It seems there are all kinds of problems coming from every direction all at the same time.

It is easiest to take them one at a time.

Since all can not be tackled in the same sentence, let's start with the mouth/frog adjustment. There are many reasons to adjust a mouth tight or wide open. Until a plane is working well, it is likely best to set it with the mouth as open as can be with the blade being fully supported by the frog and not being lifted from the frog by the back edge of the mouth. Try to square the frog to the mouth's edge as it is being tightened into place. When my planes are being set up it is usually done with a piece of 1X pine planing on the 1" edge using the blade lowering method described earlier. The plane is moved so it is running centered on the board. The blade adjustment is turned slowly until a shaving first starts to appear. Usually this is more from one side of the blade. The depth adjustment is stopped at this point. At this point the adjustment is to make the shaving from the right side of the blade and the left side of the blade as equal as possible. If there is a lot of camber in the blade, then the goal if to center the camber as well as can be. With a full length shaving from both sides of the plane, after a while it is fairly easy to determine if one shaving is thicker than the other. This is what the lateral adjustment lever allows one to compensate. My preference is to set the plane up so the lever is fairly close to center. This may require some frog adjustment. I will have to look at the fettling thread in the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs sticky to see if there is much in that. Maybe it is time for a thread on hand plane set up for beginners. Seems a lot of people are becoming new plane users. Those thin little curls can be hypnotizing. For now though, just getting the lateral adjustment so the shaving is equal is what needs doing.

There are a few problems that can occur. If one side of the blade will cut and the other won't, it could be a blade that is not square. It could be a frog that is not square. It could be a frog that is leaning. A leaning frog could be from dirt, a frog that needs some attention of the main casting may need some work. Without more information of actually seeing the plane, it would be difficult to determine.

Next let us examine the "ribbons." This could be the cause of the ridges on your work. For me, ribbons appear when a blade is getting dull or has just hit a knot. They are often caused by a nick in the blade. The nick cause the blade to not be low enough to cut wood in that one very small place. No cut, no shaving. Sharp blade on either side of a nick or between a few nicks and voila, ribbons. Ribbons can also be caused by slivers of wood stuck in the mouth. Slivers in the mouth or under the blade will leave depressions on the surface being worked.

Flatness of plane soles can be tricky to see. Often it is easier to detect by what a plane is doing than with a straight edge unless it is more than a few thousands. Of course if the work is not being supported over the full length, it could be flexing and making one problem look like another.

A recent $1 block plane acquisition of mine had a concave sole from end to end. It was strange that it would cut OK until it got to the end of the board. Finally it was realized that towards the end there was less pressure being applied and the plane was flexing. If you have a good light source and a good straight edge you may be able to see light under the straight edge when looking at the light or a brightly lit light colored wall. Another way if you have a known flat surface is to mark the bottom of the plane with a felt tip marker. Then with some fine sand paper adhered to the flat surface give a rub or two and the high and low spots will be immediately evident. This should be done with the plane fully assembled and the blade retracted.

Yes, all three could be affected the same way. Especially if all three came from the same source. If a plane has been used for just smoothing edges narrower than the sole, the middle could become worn. When a plane is making very fine shavings, a little variation in the sole can make a world of difference.

Back to the mouth size. If you do want to set up a plane for final smoothing and super fine shavings, then you may want to have a tight mouth set on the plane. For most work though, this is not real necessary. My own set up currently has 3 #4 Bailey style planes and 1 #603 Bedrock plane. One can not take a shaving much over .001" without jamming. Of course, there are likely a lot of folks that will tell you some tales about my obsession with planes. Hey, I am retired and it keeps me from being idle and getting into trouble. That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Hope this helps, if you have more questions just ask.

jim

[Randy Bonella]

looks like a chunk of wood getting caught in the mouth and or just below the blade. I get that sometimes If I don't constantly keep the mouth cleaned out. Almost seems like I need to clear it on every pass when on soft woods. Only seems to happen on soft woods like Doug Fir, Hemlock or pine. Haven't had the problem on Maple.

[Josh Bowman]

He wasn't talking about plane tracks. His blade had nicks. And no, even Hock blade needs to be sharpened or honed before touching the wood. Most of reputable replacement blades and tools even come with a note or instruction that says blades are sharp, but greatly benefits from honing. They may be sharp enough to make thick shavings or cut yourself with it, most of the time they are far from sharp enough to do smoothing cut. A lot of them do have tiny nicks here and there.


Sam, I apologize....didn't see the additional page of posts and his solution. And I accept the coaching. However, Jim is 100% on and recognized what I think I saw as a beginner to hand planes. And I want to restate that thought for any beginners: Master one plane using good wood. Knotted or curly wood are advanced skills. At first I tried using cheap 2x6 pine and scrap oak and the results are inconsistent and confusing. A good friend insisted on me using a good clear piece of oak, cherry, walnut etc. to begin with. That way you can master the adjusting of the plane and not deal with other variables.
Humbly yours,
Josh

[Sam Takeuchi]

You don't need to apologize. We all learn something here :)

[Walter Cleeson]

Jim,

So much useful information! Thank you.

I had a much better experience in the shop today after applying what I learned just yesterday. I do realize I need to get better at sharpening for sure. But getting rid of those nicks in the edges of my blades made a drastic difference.

All of my planes came from different sources at different times. I have never lapped the sole of my #7, but the #3,#4 and #5 have all been lapped with sandpaper on glass. I used the felt marker trick to try to ensure I got good results.

I am still trying to figure out the subtleties of frog adjustment. My #4 has no screw adjuster, just the two top screws, so it is the most difficult. I have taken the time to fettle the planes by checking and filing the surfaces on the frogs and plane bodies.

I am not having a lot of luck getting a very tight mouth on the #4. Maybe the previous owner(s) filed it bigger. Even with a thicker blade and the frog all the way forward, I still have somewhere between a 1/16" and 1/8" opening. The #3 I can close up so tight I get no shavings.

All my lateral adjusters work a bit differently. Not function wise of course, but ease of use wise. One of them is sloppy loose, one is so hard to move it gives me abrupt adjustments and one is just right. All the better to learn I guess.

I might try your technique for setting the the blades. Probably better than me wailing away at the terrified pine board until I get it right.:)

Since I de-nicked the blades, I don't have much of a ribbon problem any longer.

I was able to get a cherry board awful pretty and smooth today, so I am happy. Josh and Eric you were right about using different wood. Much more satisfying that way.

Thank you Sam for the sharpening information. I need all the education I can get!

-Walter

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,

So much useful information! Thank you.

That is one of the main reasons so many folks like this forum. One day, you will be helping someone new.

- When one teaches, two learn.
- an old saying.


I had a much better experience in the shop today after applying what I learned just yesterday. I do realize I need to get better at sharpening for sure. But getting rid of those nicks in the edges of my blades made a drastic difference.

You will find your understanding of sharpening will change with time. A year from know you will wonder how you got anywhere without the abilities you will develop over the next year.


I am still trying to figure out the subtleties of frog adjustment. My #4 has no screw adjuster, just the two top screws, so it is the most difficult. I have taken the time to fettle the planes by checking and filing the surfaces on the frogs and plane bodies.

I am not having a lot of luck getting a very tight mouth on the #4. Maybe the previous owner(s) filed it bigger. Even with a thicker blade and the frog all the way forward, I still have somewhere between a 1/16" and 1/8" opening. The #3 I can close up so tight I get no shavings.

Frog adjusting is another of those things for which you will develop a feel.

The cutout for the mouths on your planes should be about the same size. If the mouth on the #4 is noticeably wider, then it may have been opened. A close look under good light should reveal if it has been filed.

Also, pictures help. You may have a mismatched frog and base.


All my lateral adjusters work a bit differently. Not function wise of course, but ease of use wise. One of them is sloppy loose, one is so hard to move it gives me abrupt adjustments and one is just right. All the better to learn I guess.

I am guessing this is without a blade in place. If the difference is only with the blade assembly and lever cap in place, then your lever cap screw may be too tight.


Since I de-nicked the blades, I don't have much of a ribbon problem any longer.
-Walter

See, you are already learning about edge condition and sharpness.

If you got 'em, ask 'em,

jim

[Sam Takeuchi]

Frog adjustment without adjustment screw can be done easily once you get the hang of it. What you can try is when you loosen frog screw, don't loosen them completely. Loosen them enough so that they'll hold the frog in place, but you can still wiggle it and nudge it with some force to move back and forth by hand. If it moves too easily, that's too loose. All this time, keep the blade, cap iron and lever cap in place, check for skew and mouth opening. You can try with plastic head hammer and give itty bitty taps to move it to the desired spot. You won't damage the frog, so don't worry. Once you find a good spot to park the frog, take the lever cap and blade/cap iron off carefully not to bump the frog. Tighten one side about half way, tighten the other one about the same amount, and then go back to the first screw, tighten it all the way, and finish with the second one.

[Walter Cleeson]

Jim,

I finally got the mouth tightened up on the #4. Just took a little more trial and error. I used Sam's suggestion and that helped. (Thanks Sam).

Yes, the lever adjuster is tight all by itself, lever cap or not. I tried oiling it, but not sure if there is anything else I can do. I don't want to break it by trying to remove it. I may try adjusting it with hammer taps like I have seen Schwarz do.

Thanks again!

-Walter

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,

I finally got the mouth tightened up on the #4. Just took a little more trial and error. I used Sam's suggestion and that helped. (Thanks Sam).

Yes, the lever adjuster is tight all by itself, lever cap or not. I tried oiling it, but not sure if there is anything else I can do. I don't want to break it by trying to remove it. I may try adjusting it with hammer taps like I have seen Schwarz do.

Thanks again!

-Walter

Yes, Sam was spot on with his description.

I am not sure if silicon oil is easy to find. I know gun smiths use some specialized products for freeing up sticky parts. Just a drop to soak in to the stiff parts can do a lot.

Not sure if you have looked through this yet:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1156007#poststop

That should take you to the post on removing the lever from the frog.

Not knowing your experience level or what tools you have at your disposal makes it difficult to give exact instructions on how to proceed. So take it slow and if you have questions ask them. I do not mind. Surely others have had or will have similar questions.

If need be, we could start a thread on lateral lever adjustment methods.

If you do proceed, be sure to use a pin punch that is a smaller diameter than the pin being driven. If you do not have a machinist vise, other methods of support for the frog while driving the pin out are possible. Just remember, you are not trying to drive a spike through hard wood, light taps are best. Sometime, the rivet has been overly peened. In some cases like this, just a few taps will free it up.

I have not seen the Schwarz adjusting method. Is it available on line?

Guess I could search for it.

Good luck and have fun,

jim

[Walter Cleeson]

Yes, Sam was spot on with his description.

I am not sure if silicon oil is easy to find. I know gun smiths use some specialized products for freeing up sticky parts. Just a drop to soak in to the stiff parts can do a lot.

Not sure if you have looked through this yet:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1156007#poststop

That should take you to the post on removing the lever from the frog.

Not knowing your experience level or what tools you have at your disposal makes it difficult to give exact instructions on how to proceed. So take it slow and if you have questions ask them. I do not mind. Surely others have had or will have similar questions.

If need be, we could start a thread on lateral lever adjustment methods.

If you do proceed, be sure to use a pin punch that is a smaller diameter than the pin being driven. If you do not have a machinist vise, other methods of support for the frog while driving the pin out are possible. Just remember, you are not trying to drive a spike through hard wood, light taps are best. Sometime, the rivet has been overly peened. In some cases like this, just a few taps will free it up.

I have not seen the Schwarz adjusting method. Is it available on line?

Guess I could search for it.

Good luck and have fun,

jim

Jim,

Thanks for the thread link. Cool stuff. I may give it a go.

I saw Schwarz just use light hammer taps on his smoothing plane blade for fine adjustments. This is on his Coarse, Medium, Fine DVD.

[Jim Koepke]

I saw Schwarz just use light hammer taps on his smoothing plane blade for fine adjustments. This is on his Coarse, Medium, Fine DVD.

Did his plane have a lateral adjuster? I do this with my planes that were made before the days of a lateral lever.

One or two of my levers are a bit stiff, most of them feel like they are about to fall off.

Some of the more recent planes have a different kind of rivet holding them in place that may be the cause. It could also be a former owner who thought it needed to be tight.

jim

[Walter Cleeson]

Did his plane have a lateral adjuster? I do this with my planes that were made before the days of a lateral lever.

One or two of my levers are a bit stiff, most of them feel like they are about to fall off.

Some of the more recent planes have a different kind of rivet holding them in place that may be the cause. It could also be a former owner who thought it needed to be tight.

jim

Yes it is a Lie-Nelson smoothing plane. He does the initial adjustment with the lever and just taps the blade with a small hammer for the last little bit.

I'll let you know if I make any progress with my adjuster.

Thanks much!

[Jim Koepke]

Yes it is a Lie-Nelson smoothing plane. He does the initial adjustment with the lever and just taps the blade with a small hammer for the last little bit.

I'll let you know if I make any progress with my adjuster.

Thanks much!

That does make a bit of sense. Sometimes lateral adjustments can be a bit tricky.

jim