Lie Nielsen straight handled dovetail saw

[Jim R Edwards]

Until now I have used a router and dovetail jig to cut dovetails. I want to learn to cut them by hand and I am in the market for a dovetail saw. I am contemplating buying a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw and I am wondering if there is much of a difference between the straight handled saw and the regular handled saw other than price? I see a lot of people using the straight handled saws to cut dovetails in the youtube videos.

[Adam Cherubini]

Straight handled dovetails saws, aka "Gents'" saws are cheap tools for occasional users. If you are intending to cut a few dts now and then, take advantage of the lower price. If you have a half dozen drawers to do, you will be holding that saw on and off for several hours or posibly an entire day.

With a Gents' saw handle, the effort of sawing is performed by the tightness of your grip. As your hand fatigues, your accuracy will go. Some guys with strong hands and superior woodworking skills can overcome this.

The pistol grip saws allow your to push the handle without squeezing it. It is easier to use for long periods of time.

Traditionally, Gents' saws have been tiny. And they make sense for that. If you have thin stock and aren't making jewelry boxes for a living, they are really good enough. The straight handle stays out of the way of the saw vise and they can make more sense for professional users. It takes me about 3-4 hours to dt a big carcass. In my shop that could be over 100 pins and 100 tails. I really prefer a pistol grip saw for that. That said I used a rown Gents' saw for many many years and got along fine with it.

Last I looked, I think the LN Gents saw was too large and too coarseely toothed. To make sense it should have the size and shape of a Gramercy dt, in my opinion. 20tpi, 6-8" long, lots of rake.

Adam

[Don Dorn]

Just anothr point of view - but probably due to personal preference. I have a Veritas dovetail saw and it works very well. I've used it enough that I've needed to sharpen it and I think it works better now than it did when I got it.

That said - I also have an inexpensive Crown gents saw and it didn't work worth anything when I got it. Using Frank Klauszs method of shapening, it is now a saw in which I have to be careful or it will go right past the marking gauge line simply by pushing it forward. In all his videos, Frank seems to use a gents saw and I can only assume it's due to comfort. Over time, I have come to the same conclusion and for some reason, keeping a straight kerf is easier for me with this saw. I do cut allot of dovetails between boxes and drawers and I reach for it it first.

You're right though about a large project like a carcas - I admit that I'd reach for the pistol grip under those circumstances. Different strokes for different folks I guess but I can understand your logic.

[Rick Erickson]

Jim, if you are just starting out I would recommend the pistol grip. This type of saw helps you build muscle memory and register vertical in the saw the same way every time. With the gents saw your grip could change every time you pick it up.

[lowell holmes]

Where might we find Frank Klausz's method of sharpening?:)

[John Coloccia]

Pistol grip is so much better for most people. Less fatigue, easier to index consistently. The Veritas saws are top notch, by the way. Don't let the funny look and low price fool you. They are top quality dovetail saws. I almost bought the LN's but found that I didn't like their grip very much. The Veritas was perfect.

[Larry Marshall]

I agree completely with Adam's analysis of the saw tooth arrangement and I suspect he's right with his comments regarding actually holding the tools. They make more sense than anything I've come up with to explain my feelings about the two approaches to handles.

What I know is that I have never been able to master cutting much of anything with straight-handled saws. This has prevented me from mastering Japanese pull saws. Being able to hold a pistol grip saw loosely while cutting provides me with so much more control that I'm a strong advocate of them, but it may simply be the result of my ill-wired brain or maybe it's what Adam said. I can only hope :-)

If money is an object, I'd second the view that the Lee Valley dovetail saw is the best value on the market. Personally I lean towards Wenzloff when it comes to backsaws of any kind but we live in an era of bounty when it comes to quality backsaws.

Cheers --- Larry

[Jim R Edwards]

Thanks for all the replys. The veritas saw was my first choice but ended up with a 50 dollar gift certificate to Lie Nielsen!

[Adam Cherubini]

Don,

Keep in mind that when Tage was acquiring tools, you couldn't buy a good western pistol grip saw. Lot's of woodworkers of this generation didn't have the luxury of high quality hand tools that we have today. So their tools of choice may not reflect their first choice of our tools. I think this is true of Japanese saws as well. 20 years ago, a Japanese saw was the only good saw you could buy new.

Adam

[James Scheffler]

In all his videos, Frank seems to use a gents saw and I can only assume it's due to comfort.

I went to a seminar about a year ago where Frank Klausz demonstrated cutting dovetails. I think he has trouble making up his mind! He used a pistol-grip dovetail saw (I think it was a LN, but I could be wrong). A couple months before that, he had an article in Popular Woodworking that advocated the use of bow saws, dovetailing included. In the seminar, he also showed how to use a bow saw to do the "3-minute" dovetails like many have seen in the on-line video. However, he said he used the pistol grip saw in his daily work.

He did talk some about his woodworking education. When he was starting out in post-war Europe, nails were a valuable and hard-to-find commodity. As a result, shipping crates were made using hand-cut dovetails. That's how he learned to do them so fast!

In any event, it was a great seminar and I learned a bunch....

Jim

[Michael Gibbons]

I have a semi custom one that I had Lie-Nielsen make with the thicker blade material that is on the pistol grip saw. I wish it had a more bulb type handle like other gent's saws,though.. Kinda like Frank Klause's.

[Don Dorn]

I went to a seminar about a year ago where Frank Klausz demonstrated cutting dovetails. I think he has trouble making up his mind! He used a pistol-grip dovetail saw (I think it was a LN, but I could be wrong). A couple months before that, he had an article in Popular Woodworking that advocated the use of bow saws, dovetailing included. In the seminar, he also showed how to use a bow saw to do the "3-minute" dovetails like many have seen in the on-line video. However, he said he used the pistol grip saw in his daily work.

He did talk some about his woodworking education. When he was starting out in post-war Europe, nails were a valuable and hard-to-find commodity. As a result, shipping crates were made using hand-cut dovetails. That's how he learned to do them so fast!

In any event, it was a great seminar and I learned a bunch....

Jim

There isn't many schools I'd really love to attend, but I really would like to go to one of Franks. You're right - now that I recollect, he does seem to use a variety of saws. I'll bet you did learn allot - I'd like to think he is a personable guy that offers good instruction.

Lowell - the video I got the information on his method of sharpening was one of Tautons "Hand Tools with Frank Klausz". That video was worth every penny to me.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I typically use Japanese saws, but had an opportunity to play with a LN straight handled dovetail saw in a tutoring situation at Homestead Heritage and loved it. It cut just as fast as my Japanese, and that was very fast indeed, cut was made in 3 strokes, no time at all really.

The Japanese saw I was using was the Pro Dozuki from LV, btw.

Pam

[lowell holmes]

Thanks Don. I have Frank's video on mortise and tenon and I've seen his video about dovetailing a drawer. I share your admiration of Frank.

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

Frank has mentioned before that he generally uses what I would call a frame saw when sawing 3/4" or thicker material, and a small backsaw for anything thinner. It's not impossible to do fine dovetails in small material with a frame saw, but it helps a lot to have a fine toothed blade and those are not always easy to find on a frame saw. It is easy to find small fine toothed blades for a bowsaw that are intended for sawing corners, but I don't like using them for the dovetails themselves (too much danger of some form of side-to-side travel).

[lowell holmes]

Don,
I got the video "Handtools with Frank Klausz and I have gleaned some goodies from it. I had already done most of the things to my saws he recommends.
However, one of the issues I had was with rake angle. I knew a zero rake angle is more agressive, but since none of my LN have a zero rake angle, I was hesitant to sharpen my other saws that way.
Now, I have sharpened two of my saws with the zero rake angle and I do like the results.
I think his method of removing excessive set is really slick.
I was taking set out of my saws by tapping on my saws alternately on each side. I found it to be tedious.

I never knew you could set the teeth with a screwdriver either.

Thanks for the tip.:)