Biscuit Jointery

[Buddy Greenoe]

I watch Norm quite often as I sure many do. One project he will use biscuits for edge gluing and sometimes he dose not. Is there some rule as to when you do or not or is it just( I think I will this time) Also what should the spacing be?

[Jim Kirkpatrick]

I worked at a small custom furniture shop and we stress tested 2 glued up panels, one with and one without biscuits. The one without biscuits proved stronger.
Biscuits are more about alignment. Use one every 12-18 inches if you like.

[Steve Griffin]

Interesting! I wouldn't have guess that.

I generally use them only if they are helpful for alignment. Such as when you have a whole bunch of narrow maple strips, or 1.5" nosing on plywood, or you have one last joint on a table which is too wide to go through a belt sander.

Don't forget the one of the oldest mistakes which is almost a mandatory rite of passage in ones woodworking career--putting a biscuit in a place that later shows after routing or cutting....

-Steve

[Harold Burrell]

Don't forget the one of the oldest mistakes which is almost a mandatory rite of passage in ones woodworking career--putting a biscuit in a place that later shows after routing or cutting....


Man, is that ever great to know!

All this time I thought I did this because I was stupid!

[Cody Colston]

I watch Norm quite often as I sure many do. One project he will use biscuits for edge gluing and sometimes he dose not. Is there some rule as to when you do or not or is it just( I think I will this time) Also what should the spacing be?

Norm was really high on biscuit joinery for a while but in the later episodes, he went away from it. One reason is because, on edge-glued panels, the glue used will swell the biscuits (an intended result) and if you sand the panel right away, there will be a depression there after the glue cures and shrinks back a bit. The other reason is that biscuits are just not necessary on long-grain glue-ups unless they are needed to help in alignment. If I were using them on a panel glue-up, I'd place biscuits every 8-10 inches.

They do have their place and are stronger than stub tenon & groove or cope and stick joinery. However, when those type joints are used, strength is not usually a primary concern, anyway.

My plate joiner will stay in the cabinet for months, come out for two or three applications and then go back in the cabinet. It's handy at times but there are long intervals when it's never used at all.

[Mike Rees]

Newbie question to be sure, but how do biscuits compare with pocket hole joinery? If biscuits are for alignment, don't you get the same thing with a pocket hole and face clamp setup?

I've got a Kreg jig under the tree this year - don't have a joiner. I'm a hobbyist so I'm trying to accumulate my first wave of tools that can do multi-purpose applications.

Thanks.

[Greg Sznajdruk]

Newbie question to be sure, but how do biscuits compare with pocket hole joinery? If biscuits are for alignment, don't you get the same thing with a pocket hole and face clamp setup?

I've got a Kreg jig under the tree this year - don't have a joiner. I'm a hobbyist so I'm trying to accumulate my first wave of tools that can do multi-purpose applications.

Thanks.

Pocket hole and biscuits are not necessarily interchangeable. Pocket screws are an excellent joining method, but they have to be used where the holes will not show. Face frames are a good example. Biscuits can be used for this application as well. Gluing up a table top it would be difficult to maintain alignment with pocket screws, where as the biscuits are a good choice for this application.

Rule of thumb if you can't clamp the matting surface the don't use pocket screws.

My .02

Greg

[Rod Sheridan]

I watch Norm quite often as I sure many do. One project he will use biscuits for edge gluing and sometimes he dose not. Is there some rule as to when you do or not or is it just( I think I will this time) Also what should the spacing be?

I gave up on biscuits for edge gluing, it adds error to the alignment unless you have a very good biscuit joiner, and are very careful in cutting the slots.

If I need alignment in a glue up, I run a glue joint cutter in the shaper using a power feeder. That presses any bows flat when it cuts the grooves so the alignment is perfect.

In most cases however, if you've properly jointed and planed your material, a light tap with your hand will result in better alignment during glue ups, than using a biscuit joiner.

Regards, Rod.

[Doug Carpenter]

Mike,

How do you know what Santa is bringing you, you're going to wind up on the naughty list if your not careful.;)

That being said you are going to love that thing! I have one and it comes in handy for alot of things. It's not for the purist who makes a cherry high boy or anything. But you can plan your projects so the holes don't show and it will come in handy. I can always turn to it if I have some tricky task ahead of me.

Have a good Christmas and try to act surprised. Something like this: :eek:

Doug

[Mike Rees]

Pocket hole and biscuits are not necessarily interchangeable. Pocket screws are an excellent joining method, but they have to be used where the holes will not show. Face frames are a good example. Biscuits can be used for this application as well. Gluing up a table top it would be difficult to maintain alignment with pocket screws, where as the biscuits are a good choice for this application.

Rule of thumb if you can't clamp the matting surface the don't use pocket screws.

My .02

Greg

Ah, glue up the table, join it w/ pocket screws, run the circular saw on the ends of everything to make it all nicey nice. Hey, I told the wife she was getting a 60" coffee table, so now its 57.5". :D

I'm probably going to get flamed for that one ....

[Mike Rees]

Mike,

How do you know what Santa is bringing you, you're going to wind up on the naughty list if your not careful.;)

That being said you are going to love that thing! I have one and it comes in handy for alot of things. It's not for the purist who makes a cherry high boy or anything. But you can plan your projects so the holes don't show and it will come in handy. I can always turn to it if I have some tricky task ahead of me.

Have a good Christmas and try to act surprised. Something like this: :eek:

Doug

Seeing as this is my first 'tool' christmas, the wifey punted on my gifts this year.

Once I get started, I am sure I will discover many tools I 'have' to have. Next year I can give her a list. This year I don't know what I need until I'm standing in sawdust scratching my head and wondering 'what next'?

[Harold Burrell]

...standing in sawdust scratching my head and wondering 'what next'?

Oh, man...that is sooooo me! :o

[Alan Wright]

Really?? I am constantly using my bisicut joiner to glue up panels. With longer boards, it seems to helps with the allignment. I just got done with a bookshelf that had 7 shelfs that ranged in length from 18 inches to about 30 (shelf was tapered). Some had 3 boards to glue up, some had two. In any event. it would have been farily simple to simply spread some glue on the edges and throw them in clamps. I, on the other hand, put about 150 biscuits (total) in them. It just seems like it would make for a stronger joint... Am I just wasting time with bisquits?? I make mission stype pieces, so I'm almost always working with QSWO. Is simple edge gluing going to stand up long term?? I'd love it is someone could convince me that I don't need to bother with bisqiuts.

thanks

Alan

[Don Jarvie]

I've always used biscuits and never had a problem. You would think the extra glue surface makes them a stronger joint.

[Brent Ring]

I have some seat blanks that I need to glue up for a set of dining room chairs that I am building. I am not going to use biscuits this time, but use some cauls to keep alignment, and plan on building some cauls following Mike Henderson's guidelines found at http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Cauls.htm

I have found that biscuits are not perfect in their alignment capabilities, especially in thicker (5/4 and thicker) wood.

just my .02

[Alan Wright]

Brent,

Just a note on Cauls. I like the link and think they look like they would work great. I, however, have a bunch that came from Pallets. If you can find an outfit that has large (maybe 10 foot length) you get some fantastic lumber. Look for a machinery manufacturer in your area, or a manufacturing facility that takes in larger stock on pallets.

The rails on the pallets are often made out of hardwoods like oak or cherry and they are often 3x4, or 4x4's It's a bit of a chore to tear them apart and get all the nails out and plain them down, but I've done it several times. I have several very heavy duty workbenches made from this wood. I also have several pieces I use as cauls. If they get beat up or too much glue on them I run them through the planer again and they are like new. I haven't paid a dime yet for this wood and it's been a god send in my shop.

[Rod Sheridan]

Really?? I am constantly using my bisicut joiner to glue up panels. With longer boards, it seems to helps with the allignment. I just got done with a bookshelf that had 7 shelfs that ranged in length from 18 inches to about 30 (shelf was tapered). Some had 3 boards to glue up, some had two. In any event. it would have been farily simple to simply spread some glue on the edges and throw them in clamps. I, on the other hand, put about 150 biscuits (total) in them. It just seems like it would make for a stronger joint... Am I just wasting time with bisquits?? I make mission stype pieces, so I'm almost always working with QSWO. Is simple edge gluing going to stand up long term?? I'd love it is someone could convince me that I don't need to bother with bisqiuts.

thanks

Alan

Hi Alan, I also make furniture primarily with QSWO since I mostly make Arts and Crafts pieces.

I've been making this style of furniture for 30 years, no biscuits, period.

I asked my FIL who is a retired masted English cabinet maker, and his take on biscuits is that they're useful for edge joining if you have non skilled people doing the glue up (such as a furniture factory) however that for a craftsman, they're not necessary, and a waste of time.

He did use "plate joiners" in some applications, however not in gluing up flat panels.

I have found that for perfect alignment, the shaper and a power feeder are ideal as the feeder forces everything flat as it goes through the glue joint cutter.

Anything else works less well than the hand alignment method for me.

As an aside, my daughter glued up her desktop last night, it's 28mm thick flat sawn red oak, she used the hand alignment method and a stack of Bessey K body clamps.

This morning when I checked it, the top is so flat that she won't need more than a cabinet scraper to complete it.

Regards, Rod.

[Brent Ring]

Brent,

Just a note on Cauls. I like the link and think they look like they would work great. I, however, have a bunch that came from Pallets. If you can find an outfit that has large (maybe 10 foot length) you get some fantastic lumber. Look for a machinery manufacturer in your area, or a manufacturing facility that takes in larger stock on pallets.

The rails on the pallets are often made out of hardwoods like oak or cherry and they are often 3x4, or 4x4's It's a bit of a chore to tear them apart and get all the nails out and plain them down, but I've done it several times. I have several very heavy duty workbenches made from this wood. I also have several pieces I use as cauls. If they get beat up or too much glue on them I run them through the planer again and they are like new. I haven't paid a dime yet for this wood and it's been a god send in my shop.

Alan,

Thanks for the material suggestion. I will take that into consideration. I currently am without a truck so it is a bit hard to collect the goodies like that when you run across them, though!

[Alan Wright]

Rod,

Thanks for the insight

Alan

[Lee Schierer]

Norm was really high on biscuit joinery for a while but in the later episodes, he went away from it. One reason is because, on edge-glued panels, the glue used will swell the biscuits (an intended result) and if you sand the panel right away, there will be a depression there after the glue cures and shrinks back a bit. The other reason is that biscuits are just not necessary on long-grain glue-ups unless they are needed to help in alignment.

He also admitted on at least one episode during his biscuit stage that he failed to note where the biscuits were and he cut into one, ruining the piece he was working on.

[Bill Arnold]

I use biscuits as an aligment aid on long panels but I quit saturating them in glue after hearing about the telegraphing issue. I make sure the slots are cut accurately at about 8" intervals. After applying glue to both edges of the joint, I place the dry biscuits in the slots with no additional glue.

[Rod Sheridan]

You're welcome Alan, I use Lee Valley 2002GF??? glue, it has a medium colour which is good with oak.........Rod.

[Noah Katz]

What keeps the pieces, which are nicely lubricated with glue, from sliding every which way?

If the answer is cauls, that seems like a lot more fussing than biscuits.


In most cases however, if you've properly jointed and planed your material, a light tap with your hand will result in better alignment during glue ups, than using a biscuit joiner. Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Noah, I don't use cauls for gluing up panels.

If your wood is jointed to 90 degrees, and you use good clamps, there isn't going to be any upward/downward bias to the clamping force.

This means that with a light tap of your hand, or a rubber mallet, the pieces will align properly.

As to sliding left/right, same issue with good clamps, the wood doesn't have any off balance forces imparted on it and it doesn't move around.

I haven't used any biscuits for panel glue ups in 30 years, except for some experiments to see if I wanted to use them, and the answer to that was no. They only added complexity and in-accuracy.

Regards, Rod.

[Jacob Mac]

I bought a biscuit jointer for the express purpose of assisting in glueups. Unfortunately, it only compounded my problems. It has sat unused in my shop ever since. Now, I use dowels when I need help on a glueup. It works much better for me. But, the more glueups I do, the less help I need.

[Stephen Edwards]

I have some seat blanks that I need to glue up for a set of dining room chairs that I am building. I am not going to use biscuits this time, but use some cauls to keep alignment, and plan on building some cauls following Mike Henderson's guidelines found at http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Cauls.htm

I have found that biscuits are not perfect in their alignment capabilities, especially in thicker (5/4 and thicker) wood.

just my .02

I made a bar top a couple of years ago that was 1 1/2" thick. I used biscuits for alignment, double stacked, one on top of the other. If you ever try this method, be sure to reference both slots off the same surface of the boards. In my case, I centered the slots 1/2" and 1" down from the top surface of the boards.

Honestly, I don't know if it added any strength (doubtful that it did) but it did help with the alignment.

[Erik Christensen]

then I switched to a festool domino - still had the same issue of having to be totally careful in cutting the slots/mortises or things would not align.

read the thread a few days ago on shop made cauls - did a couple of sets and glued up my first practice panel - IMO it was a much easier process with equal quality results

i doubt i will use anything but glue from now on in a panel glue up

[Phillip Bogle]

I guess it depends on the way each of us feels comfortable. I have tried every method mentioned and now I use my Dowelmax. I am never ever off even a tiny bit on alignment. The Dowelmax is so precise that it is like a manual CNC unit (how's that for an oxymoron). I built new window sash to replace the 1930's sash in my house. I used my Dowelmax in every joint. If I make a flat glueup like a table top I have used dowels (Dowelmax) and Titebond glue. My wife and her partner own a dressmaking shop, cutting patterns, and fabric all day. Leaning on the tables, and such has not made a difference or shown any signs of wear. After 2 years neither table shows any noticeable difference in the top.

I have a Kreg K4 jig and I have used it the same way. All the joints have held up and I am equally please with either joint. I use the pocket screws when the alignment isn't critical, and I need it fast. The pocket screw is about the fastest way out there. Though you do need additional gear or jigs to align the work.

If you haven't guessed I am not big on spending a lot of time cutting dovetails, or figuring mortise & tenon set ups.I want to get the project completed.

That is just my opinion and what I am comfortable with.
Phil

[Michael Drew]

Hi Noah, I don't use cauls for gluing up panels.

If your wood is jointed to 90 degrees, and you use good clamps, there isn't going to be any upward/downward bias to the clamping force.

This means that with a light tap of your hand, or a rubber mallet, the pieces will align properly.

As to sliding left/right, same issue with good clamps, the wood doesn't have any off balance forces imparted on it and it doesn't move around.

I haven't used any biscuits for panel glue ups in 30 years, except for some experiments to see if I wanted to use them, and the answer to that was no. They only added complexity and in-accuracy.

Regards, Rod.

Thanks for your comments. They give me hope, as I use biscuits but would like to get away from using them. I'll try the Lee Valley Glue you use too.