What do you use for glue joints?

[Art Davis]

I just received my copy of Fine Woodworking for February and finished reading the article by Bob Van Dyke in the "Fundamentals" section on "Creating an attractive tabletop."

I am even more confused now than ever, and am hoping you can help.

I've always used the jointer to get one true edge (that I thought was true, anyway) and one true face on each piece. I then used the table saw to rip the opposite edge.

Now here is what Van Dyke says about what to do after glueup:

"At this point, the top is still a little bigger than its finished size. To get to the final width, first re-joint one edge using a handplane or the jointer. Rip the top to width on the tablesaw and then joint or handplane the ripped edges to smooth them."

Doesn't this call into question the accuracy of using the tablesaw to rip a glue-line? And here I've invested in some pretty good blades to do that.

A bit further on, Van Dyke seems to contradict himself:

"If you used a jointer to prep the edges before the glue-up, cut off at least 1 in. from each end of the top. Doing so removes any snipe from the jointer that can weaken the very end of the glue joint."

Now earlier he has told me to rejoint both edges to true them up, now he tells me that snipe causes difficulties with the glue joints. If so, why doesn't the snipe occur on the finished tabletop?

So, my question: should I rely on the jointer for a true edge or should I trust my trusty table saw?

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

[doug faist]

Just the first of what I'm sure will be lots of comments.

My practice is to true one edge on the jointer and then rip a glue edge on the other. Works for me 95% of the time. In the instances where it's not quite perfect my trusty jointer plane takes care of any imperfections.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Doug

[David DeCristoforo]

I have been gluing up panels right off the saw for years. As long as you have a decent blade that makes a clean cut and your stock is straight, you should not need to get much more involved.

[Stephen Edwards]

I have been gluing up panels right off the saw for years. As long as you have a decent blade that makes a clean cut and your stock is straight, you should not need to get much more involved.


+1 for what he said. For years I would joint both edges on the joiner, even if it didn't need it. I certain that I got into that habit before I learned about high quality TS blades. Even after buying and using a high quality blade (Freud) that produces a glue line rip I was still in the habit of jointing that second cut.

After reading here on SMC about people not jointing the second rip of a board, I decided to give it a try. Guess what? Like David said, it works!

I do like the idea, and follow the practice now, of cutting an inch or two off each end before glue up, just in case there's any snipe on the ends.

Of course, one still leaves the glued up panel long enough to trim to final dimensions.

[Peter Quinn]

Read closely what Bob has written. You glue up the top, then rejoint one edge, rip to width, rejoint the ripped edge TO SMOOTH IT. That is, you are creating a surface that is easier to sand than a ripped edge. This makes perfect sense to me, and not just because I have taken classes with Bob at his school. Sounds like he is saying glue it up a little fat and clean up those show edges at the end. Leave yourself a little room for the uncertainties that wood contains.

Further, I have glued up large tops and counters using boards that were each jointed and ripped parallel after being flattened and planed, and to my amazement, the top was slightly tapered edge to edge over its length. Go figure? So Bob's method gives you one last chance to get those two edges parallel and smooth after glue up. Makes sense to me, but I haven't read the actual article yet.

OK, so I have read the article now, and everything I wrote above still makes sense to me. He is not talking about glue line rips or not, you are well past that point in the third instillation of this series. I believe if you check the first two articles in the series he suggested using sprung joints made with a hand plane. He is a big proponent of using hand planes. Either way how you choose to prepare boards for glue up is beside the point of this part of the article.

[Rich Neighbarger]

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. +1 to all above. :)

[Glen Butler]

He said "removes snipe cause by the jointer"??? I have heard of snipe on a planer which has happened to me on occasion. But snipe on a jointer. Never. I don't see it is even possible. On a planer the wood can get closer to the cutter because the pressure wheels. On a jointer, the metal bed just can't move.

Glue line rips are easily attainable on a table saw but it is absolutely important that the blade is running as perfect to parallel to the fence as it can be. You can rely on either for perfect joints as long as they are setup correctly.

What blade do others use for their glue line rips?

[Steve Mellott]

It depends on the quality of my saw cut. Usually there are some minor blade marks and I use the jointer to clean up the edge. Not sure if it is needed or not, but it gives me piece of mind and doesn't require much time or effort.

Steve

[Myk Rian]

Glue line rips are easily attainable on a table saw but it is absolutely important that the blade is running as perfect to parallel..
Let's make that perpendicular.


What blade do others use for their glue line rips?Freud glue line rip, on stock up to 1" thick.
I've never seen a need to joint after ripping the stock.

[Steve Jenkins]

If your outfeed table on the jointer is just a hair low you can get a straight joint but when the stock leaves the infeed table it will drop down and cause a bit of snipe. It is just a couple thousandths but can create problems. It's easy enough to prevent though.

[Chuck Isaacson]

Glue line rips are easily attainable on a table saw but it is absolutely important that the blade is running as perfect to parallel to the fence as it can be.


Let's make that perpendicular.

Actually he had that right with parallel..

CHuck

[Jim Kountz]

Back in the days before I had a premium saw running good blades I would always joint both edges before glue up but like David and others have said with the proper setup its not necessary usually.

[Glen Butler]

Let's make that perpendicular.

Freud glue line rip, on stock up to 1" thick.
I've never seen a need to joint after ripping the stock.


How do you rip would with your blade perpendicular to the fence?:confused:

[mike holden]

Art,
There is nothing wrong with gluing up a clean sawcut edge. There are always multiple ways to do anything.
If the method you use works fine for you, then that is all that is necessary.
If you want to learn other methods thats fine too, but if your glue joint gives you a good result, and the glue does not fail, that is all that is necessary.
Mike

[Lee Schierer]

On a well tuned saw you probably don't need a jointer. If your saw leaves burn marks on the edge, glue doesn't stick as well to the charred material. Also the burn is usually slightly indented from the rest of the surface. Like others, I successfully made glue ups with just a sawn edge for years before I acquired a jointer. I still occasionally glue up joints with just a sawn edge. None have ever failed that I am aware of.

If your jointer is set properly there isn't any snipe. Snipe is common with many planers and can be a problem in surface appearance and face joint gluing.

[glenn bradley]

First off, let's not bickah and argue about ooo killed ooo (Monty Python reference). All arguments for arguments sake aside; before I knew what a good rip cut was off a tablesaw and how to get one, edges needed attention after coming off my saw. I know many folks, feel that a hand tool must be used in some way shape or form for almost any operation even if you just pick one up and shake it at the material from across the room ;-).

That's fine; I use hand tools as well as their tailed cousins and enjoy both. Properly setup machines can yield excellent results that require no additional attention. Some things are, if not better, at least more satisfying to do by hand.

You will also find some folks in the dry-fit-as-it-is-to-fit camp and others in the sprung-joint camp where the panel edges should arch away from each other and need to be forced together while glued. We all have different ways of doing things. Learning the many ways folks do things from many sources will allow you to establish your way of doing them. Relax and have fun.

[Myk Rian]

Perpendicular to the table.

[Harold Burrell]

If your outfeed table on the jointer is just a hair low you can get a straight joint but when the stock leaves the infeed table it will drop down and cause a bit of snipe. It is just a couple thousandths but can create problems. It's easy enough to prevent though.

Oh, boy! HOW do I prevent this???

[george wilson]

To prevent snipe,plane your test piece. If it snipes,carefully raise the outfeed table a LITTLE bit,and repeat. Raise the table very carefully each time in SMALL increments till the snipe is gone. If you raise the out feed table too much,the jointer will plane your wood tapered. If you feel the wood bumping into the out feed table after it goes over the cutters,the out feed table is definitely too high.

It is also very possible that the blades may not be parallel to the tables ACROSS their width. When you get the planer to not snipe when the fence is fully to the right,it could snipe when the fence is near the left hand side of the table.

[Art Davis]

Read closely what Bob has written. You glue up the top, then rejoint one edge, rip to width, rejoint the ripped edge TO SMOOTH IT. That is, you are creating a surface that is easier to sand than a ripped edge. This makes perfect sense to me, and not just because I have taken classes with Bob at his school. Sounds like he is saying glue it up a little fat and clean up those show edges at the end. Leave yourself a little room for the uncertainties that wood contains.

Further, I have glued up large tops and counters using boards that were each jointed and ripped parallel after being flattened and planed, and to my amazement, the top was slightly tapered edge to edge over its length. Go figure? So Bob's method gives you one last chance to get those two edges parallel and smooth after glue up. Makes sense to me, but I haven't read the actual article yet.

OK, so I have read the article now, and everything I wrote above still makes sense to me. He is not talking about glue line rips or not, you are well past that point in the third instillation of this series. I believe if you check the first two articles in the series he suggested using sprung joints made with a hand plane. He is a big proponent of using hand planes. Either way how you choose to prepare boards for glue up is beside the point of this part of the article.


Peter,

Don't mean to be nasty or personal here---and have no intention of denigrating the author. I don't know him personally, and have no ax to grind. Also, as a beginner, I really can't call him to task for the recommendations he makes.

However, as a retired educator I CAN question his pedagogy and I think he has a pretty glaring problem with withat I have pointed out. As a beginner, I have every reason to ask why is it that if the jointer produces snipe on the individual pieces, then it does not produce snipe on the assembled board. Such snipe would be harder to take out than the minor roughness caused by my sawblade, I think.

[Dave Sepucha]

If snipe does occur when jointing (either prior to glue-up or on the assembled board) then trimming the length of the top as he mentions will remove the affected areas. The snipe will only be on the ends.

Maybe I'm missing something.

[Glen Butler]

Peter,

As a beginner, I have every reason to ask why is it that if the jointer produces snipe on the individual pieces, then it does not produce snipe on the assembled board. Such snipe would be harder to take out than the minor roughness caused by my sawblade, I think.

Art,

I was pointing out, that I think the author is wrong on a jointer producing snipe ever. It could only do that if the tool is not set up properly. i.e. the outfeed table is not even with the cutters. Noone knows everything, even if they are an expert in the field. I could give you countless examples, but that is not necessary. What is important is that you find what works for you with the resources that is given and at your disposal. Thank you creekers.

[David DeCristoforo]

"It could only do that if the tool is not set up properly. i.e. the outfeed table is not even with the cutters."

Totally accurate. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise! The top of your outfeed table must be tangent to the cutting circle. Also, if you are getting significant snipe, you are also getting a slight arc on the edge because the material is lifting off the outfeed table as the cut progresses. So the solution is simply to adjust the outfeed table. The easiest way to do this is to lay a steel ruler on edge with the end projecting out over the cutting head. Rotate the head until the knives hit the bottom edge of the ruler. Then move the outfeed table and rotate the cutter head until the knives just barely "kiss" the ruler but not enough to make it move. You should "hear" the contact rather than "see" it. After that, no more snipe. And no need to waste the end of every board you joint! Oh and BTW, make sure to unplug the jointer before getting your hands on the cutter head.

[Harold Burrell]

Oh and BTW, make sure to unplug the jointer before getting your hands on the cutter head.

Yeah, but...wouldn't you get a truer reading by letting the blades spin at normal operating speed???








:eek:
;)
:p

[David DeCristoforo]

"...wouldn't you get a truer reading by letting the blades spin at normal operating speed???"

Yes but you might also end up with FRS (Flying Ruler Syndrome)

[Brian Tymchak]

To prevent snipe,plane your test piece. If it snipes,carefully raise the outfeed table a LITTLE bit,and repeat. Raise the table very carefully each time in SMALL increments till the snipe is gone. If you raise the out feed table too much,the jointer will plane your wood tapered. If you feel the wood bumping into the out feed table after it goes over the cutters,the out feed table is definitely too high.


My Jet jointer came out of the factory with the outfeed table .016" lower than the knives at top dead center. It was the first jointer I'd ever owned and I sniped everything until I figured it out. I used a straight edge across the knives to the outfeed table and raised the table until the gap under the straight-edge disappeared. Have never had another problem since.

I remember reading somewhere that advocated having the outfeed table a few thousands lower than the knives at TDC, but I've never figured out why that would be a good thing...

Brian

[Bill White]

Glue line ripper here as well. Works for me, but then I also use biscuits for alignment.
Bill

[Glen Butler]

I have found there is a specific amount that the outfeed needs to be lower than the knives. But we are talking considerably less than a thousandth, which would not produce snipe by any means. My jointer is happiest when it pulls the straight edge for about an 1/8" before letting go of it. I adjusted my table today per David saying "you should just hear an audible kiss" and my cut came out convex. This could be because helical heads scallup ~0.001".

My manual shows a setup block with two lines on it. You set the block on the table with the first line at the edge of the table. Spin the blade. When the blade lets go of the block the second line should now be at the edge of the table.

[Peter Quinn]

Peter,

Don't mean to be nasty or personal here---and have no intention of denigrating the author. I don't know him personally, and have no ax to grind. Also, as a beginner, I really can't call him to task for the recommendations he makes.

However, as a retired educator I CAN question his pedagogy and I think he has a pretty glaring problem with withat I have pointed out. As a beginner, I have every reason to ask why is it that if the jointer produces snipe on the individual pieces, then it does not produce snipe on the assembled board. Such snipe would be harder to take out than the minor roughness caused by my sawblade, I think.

I didn't take your question to be nasty or personal, and I hope you didn't take my response that way either. It was meant as an honest answer to address your confusion. I mentioned having taken classes with Bob in the interest of full disclosure, not to present myself as an incensed student defending a teacher. My opinions were my own given a review of the articles in question. I strongly respect your right to question Bob and his pedagogy (I certainly do), and to form your own opinions that disagree with his, mine, or anybody else's.

So your core question was are glue line rips acceptable for joint preparation and or does the article series contradict that? I don't think the article addressed the validity of a glue line rip one way or the other. The article does seem to elucidate one man's method for preparing table tops that does not include glue line ripping. I can tell you I have done a lot of them without failure, some on boards as long as 16' where jointing was not an option.

It is my impression that you may have missed a bit of information in the second article that is leading to the confusion regarding the third. In the second, the author declares that jointer fences are imperfect and suggest using an in/out routine to cancel any error. He further describes a procedure for using the jointer to create sprung joints to strengthen them, and this technique itself can lead to some snipe that must later be removed. It can and IME usually will lead to a panel that is slightly out of square and must be corrected latter. Remove 1/64" from the center of each board, multiply that by the number of boards in a large top, and you have an issue. In the last installment the author seems to be merely outlining a procedure for truing one edge AFTER glue up and ripping the opposing edge parallel, then squaring the ends. As you will not be springing the edges at that point, there is less tendency to introduce snipe, and it is of little consequence. I see no contradiction in the procedure the author has outlined when taken as a whole.

As far as joined edges or ripped edges, neither is typically an acceptable finished surface in fine work, both must be addressed, I find it easier to sand or hand plane the marks from a lightly joined surface than a ripped one but opinions do vary. As far as snipe on the edge of a table, it is of little consequence to me anyway as it joins nothing and thus weakens nothing. Snipe at the ends of two glued boards creates a very wide glue line and an invitation for failure over the long run and is best removed.

IME few jointer fences are perfectly perpendicular to the jointer over there entire length, and few can be set or held perfect in any event. The error tends to be minor, but the cumulative affect of these errors over a multi board panel glue up can lead to significant problems. Simply jointing adjoining edges 180 degrees in relationship to each other naturally cancels this error by creating complimentary angles. How a glue line rip fits into that scheme I can't say, but I can say that I won't typically joint a ripped edge to a joined edge. Its either one or the other for me. I rip all adjoining edges, or I join each using the in/out method. Does this make any sense to anyone except me?

[Stephen Edwards]

First off, let's not bickah and argue about ooo killed ooo (Monty Python reference). All arguments for arguments sake aside; before I knew what a good rip cut was off a tablesaw and how to get one, edges needed attention after coming off my saw. I know many folks, feel that a hand tool must be used in some way shape or form for almost any operation even if you just pick one up and shake it at the material from across the room ;-).

That's fine; I use hand tools as well as their tailed cousins and enjoy both. Properly setup machines can yield excellent results that require no additional attention. Some things are, if not better, at least more satisfying to do by hand.

You will also find some folks in the dry-fit-as-it-is-to-fit camp and others in the sprung-joint camp where the panel edges should arch away from each other and need to be forced together while glued. We all have different ways of doing things. Learning the many ways folks do things from many sources will allow you to establish your way of doing them. Relax and have fun.

Yeah, what he said! This is an interesting and informative thread. And, I've learned a new word!

pedagogy:

The art or profession of teaching.
Preparatory training or instruction.

Not only do I learn multiple methods of performing a particular task, I also learn new words here at SMC!

Merry Christmas to All!