Oneway wheel balancing kit and 8" wheels

[Jamie Straw]

I got the Oneway wheel balancing kit last week, hoping it would help whatever inexpensive 8" grinder I ended up with (long saga, Delta sucks:() The balancing system requires 1" holes for insertion of the flange. I haven't looked around alot, but when picking up the slow-speed grinder at Woodcraft, I noticed that all but one of the 8" wheels they carried had 1-1/4" holes, not 1".

Have to decide whether to keep the balancing system. Does anyone out there have it, and an 8" grinder, and has found good wheels with 1" arbor holes? I lean toward Norton, but would consider other brands if they're half-way decent out of the box.

Thanks!

[Sean Troy]

I've been using the balancing kit for years on a Woodcraft 8" grinder and love it. I've never heard of 1 1/4 in. Arbor holes? I've also never seen wheels come without inserts to make them fit all arbors. Your best wheels you can order are the Norton K grade. More expensive but last a lot longer, better balanced and need dressing a lot less. Double check that arbor opening.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Jamie - I have been using the balancing system for a few years now and it does make a difference. Like Sean, I have not heard of 1 1/4" arbor holes. If you are looking for wheels - check with any of your major woodworking retailers as they have the 1" arbor as well as a variety of grits.

The one thing that I did end up doing with the balancing system that was different than their instructions - had to use some fender washers for additional weight. If I had purchased higher quality wheels - that may not have been necessary.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Have the oneway on my 8" woodcraft SS grinder with the original wheels. Fits no problem.

[Baxter Smith]

Thanks Bernie. When I got the same grinder a couple of weeks ago I was somewhat dissapointed by the wobble in the wheels and wondered if the balancing kit would fit. One of the many questions I have had!:) Aggravates me somewhat to buy something new then have to modify it to get it to work well.

[Jamie Straw]

Have the oneway on my 8" woodcraft SS grinder with the original wheels. Fits no problem.

When I get home, I'll take a look again, but I could have sworn the arbor hole was noticeably less than 1" when I looked at it. Granted, it was late at night.....:rolleyes:

[Jamie Straw]

Thanks Bernie. When I got the same grinder a couple of weeks ago I was somewhat dissapointed by the wobble in the wheels and wondered if the balancing kit would fit. One of the many questions I have had!:) Aggravates me somewhat to buy something new then have to modify it to get it to work well.

When I was trying out the Delta variable speed grinder, I balanced both of the wheels (not stock, aftermarket) I was trying on it. Did not eliminate wobble. Methinks because there can be other causes for wobble than the wheels themselves. Parts of the ginder than arent' perfect?

I'm beginning to understand why people pay Big Bucks to get a good sharpening system. Tight tolerances, quality design and materials, and top-notch quality control don't come at budget prices. If you take a look at the "Delta 8" VS Grinder" (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=127258) thread, you may be amazed at what people had to do to get that one to perform decently. Extemely small shoulder for the inside hub to ride on, said hub being less than wonderful in shape, seems to be alot of the problem. At least the Woodcraft model has a decent shoulder in there.

Good luck with yours, I'll post any magic tweaks if I discover them.

[Gordon Seto]

Jamie,

See whether you can still get this "poor man's Baldor".
http://www.amazon.com/DELTA-23-725-8-Inch-Industrial-Grinder/dp/B00004YBW0
This is no Baldor, but for less than $200. It is no where near the price of a 8" Baldor. This is a far better grinder than the Woodcraft. After powering off, the wheels still coast for a long time before they stop. I bought this to replace the Woodcraft grinder. The Delta came with one white wheel and one gray wheel.
This is very heavy duty, weights 100 pounds. The variable speed model is light duty as compared to this. It was reported that the VS model would get warm if you let it running for long time. Besides VS is a feature that is hardly useful in turning.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/Grinderflange004.jpg
On the left side are the flanges from the Woodcraft slow speed grinder; on the right are from the heavy duty Delta. The stamped flanges are not absolute flat and true.
IMO, The best value in grinding wheels are the Norton 3X "K" Grade wheels.
http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/10846
The "I" wheels are too soft for turning tools.
Most of the wheels has 1" arbor holes and have plastic bushings for using with smaller diameter shaft grinders. If those bushings are loose, you wheel would not run true. You can correct this by turning a tight fitting hard wood adapter to replace those bushings.
The only wheel (that I know of) that can't use the Oneway balancing kit is the Norton SG wheel that CSUSA carried. It has only 5/8" arbor hole. It is the most expensive grinding wheel. As explained by CSUSA, these wheels are so well made that balancing won't do any better. Yes, they run cooler, hold up well and don't need dressing as often. But not several times better than the Norton 3X.

[Dan Forman]

I have that Delta low speed industrial grinder, and it is a beast. Put new wheels on it and it and they will still wobble. It's not the grinder, it's the wheels that a not true. Not much that can be done about that - the wobble that is. I have the 3x wheels, which are great, but they still wobble.

The Oneway balancing outfit will help, but the wheels will still wobble some, because they are not shaped true to begin with, or the holes aren't cut true. The Oneway balancing system won't keep your tools from bouncing around on the wheel if they are out of round, and all of mine have been, at least when mounted with the supplied bushings or on the Oneway balancing thingies.

To keep your tools from bouncing around on the wheel, You need one of these. Geiger's Solutions Wheel Truing & Dressing Solution (http://www.geigerssolutions.com/trudress.html)

I just got mine a couple of days ago, and this is the first time in years my tools haven't bounced. This does a much better job than the Oneway diamond dresser, which I also have. There is too much play and not enough mass in that one to actually make the wheels round in my experience. The Geiger is a massive steel plate, machined to fit the a 3x5 platform like the Wolverine platform. It weighs 1.75 pounds! The diamond is set at an angle, and when you turn the screw to advance it, it rotates the diamond surface as well, so you keep the diamond cone shaped. The mass of the steel absorbs all vibration, so that the cutting action is firm, no bouncing around at all, and it makes the wheel round, rather than removing the top layer, but leaving the wheel out of round, like the hand held T shaped dressers do. Set up is a breeze, and it's very simple to operate. Takes just a few minutes to dress the first time, seconds from then on. Do I sound enthused?

I saw this a while ago, and put off ordering one because it is kind of spendy, but if you are a picky SOB like myself, you will appreciate it. My advice, keep your current grinder, and get the wheel dresser.

No connection to Geiger, just a happy customer. I plan on doing a review with pics soon.

Dan

[Ryan Baker]

Dan, that Geiger tool looks a lot like the one that Bill Grumbine was selling. Are they the same product?

I have been thinking about getting one of those lately for exactly the reasons you list. Maybe I will order one of those Geigers.

[Jamie Straw]

[snip]
To keep your tools from bouncing around on the wheel, You need one of these. Geiger's Solutions Wheel Truing & Dressing Solution (http://www.geigerssolutions.com/trudress.html)

I just got mine a couple of days ago, and this is the first time in years my tools haven't bounced. [snip]
Dan

Dan, I saw the Geiger's awhile back, thanks for the explanation on how it works better than other dressers. Question that comes to mind is, if a wheel wobbles (side to side), but it's dressed such that it is at least round, the fact that it wobbles isn't a problem?

I'm extremely close to being out of cash for this venture, at least for now, so I don't know if I can get that dresser or not. Might have to ask Santa!

[Jamie Straw]

Jamie,

See whether you can still get this "poor man's Baldor".
http://www.amazon.com/DELTA-23-725-8-Inch-Industrial-Grinder/dp/B00004YBW0


Thanks, Gordon. I looked around for it, but not much luck. The reviews concerned me too, as it seems another machine where if you get the right one (built on Tuesday, everyone's awake?) you're in luck, if not it's a bust.

I'm leaning toward putting a Baldor on my Craig's List "watch for" list and in the meantime limp along with the Woodcraft. thanks for the link to the Norton wheels too!

[Dan Forman]

Dan, that Geiger tool looks a lot like the one that Bill Grumbine was selling. Are they the same product?

I have been thinking about getting one of those lately for exactly the reasons you list. Maybe I will order one of those Geigers.

I couldn't find a picture on Bills site, but the description sounds a little different, in that Bill talks about two sides to fit different platforms. I don't know how heavy Bill's is, but Geiger's is really massive, which I think is important. Otherwise they sound like they work on the same principle.

Dan

[Dan Forman]

Dan, I saw the Geiger's awhile back, thanks for the explanation on how it works better than other dressers. Question that comes to mind is, if a wheel wobbles (side to side), but it's dressed such that it is at least round, the fact that it wobbles isn't a problem?

I'm extremely close to being out of cash for this venture, at least for now, so I don't know if I can get that dresser or not. Might have to ask Santa!

A wobble will probably still add a little vibration to th machine, but unless the wheels are so far out that they shake themselves apart, so long as the wheel is round, it won't affect sharpening. Like I said, I haven't found one yet that runs perfectly true. Even without being perfectly round, you will still be able to sharpen, it will just be annoying to have your tool bouncing around on the wheel. So don't get too freaked out, just put the Geiger on your list of things to get when you can.

Dan

[Gordon Seto]

I have the Oneway diamond dresser; it would get the wheel round. The down side is it is not convenient to use, and take time to set up. It ended up not being used as frequent as it should be. I also bought the single point diamond dresser from Bill Grumbine.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/557342e5.jpg
It is basically the same design as Geiger's. No doubt, this design is the better diamond dresser. I think it is an luxury item. A T handle style hand held dresser can also true up the wheel. One would have to anchor the dresser to the platform while using the dresser.

Any dresser won't be able to correct the side to side wobble.

I also have this $105 Norton SG wheel. It has 5/8" arbor, I can't use the Oneway balancer. It runs silky smooth out of the box. Don't know whether it was pure luck or quality control.

[John King]

It's important to distinguish between grinding wheel wobble and out of balance. The Wolverine Precision Balancing System by Oneway Manufacturing (http://www.oneway.ca/sharpening/balancing.htm (http://www.oneway.ca/sharpening/balancing.htm)) compensates for out of round wheels, wheel density and thickness side-to-side variation of the wheel.

Assuming the shafts on the grinder run true with near zero runout, wheel wobble is the result of a "warped" grinding wheel and is a manufacturing defect. Grinding wheel wobble cannot be corrected by a balancing system. The grinding wheel should be replaced by the vendor.

I have never used the Grumbine or the Geiger wheel dressing tools. But I have made a wheel dressing tool that works on the same principle, is very effective at truing up a grinding wheel and cost a fraction of the Grumbine and Geiger dressing tools. See attached photos.

The dressing tool that I use is made of wood with a 7/16” x 3” ¼ carat single point diamond dresser (http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/2315/nm/Single_Point_Diamond_Dressers_WT_Import_ (http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/2315/nm/Single_Point_Diamond_Dressers_WT_Import_)), an eye bolt to control movement of the diamond dresser and a nylon insert lock nut to hold the eye bolt at the desired depth. When the diamond dresser is extended ½” or so, the eye bolt is backed out of the jig and the diamond dresser is pressed back to near the front surface of the jig.

The wheel dressing jig is put on the flat tool rest of the grinder. With the grinder running, slide the jig from side-to-side on the flat tool rest. Adjust the diamond dresser with the eye bolt to achieve the desired contact with the grinding wheel. Works great!

[Jamie Straw]

Thanks, John, for the info and the demonstration of your shop-made dressing tool. That is definitely on my list of things to do after Christmas!

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Wobble does not have to be a warped wheel.
A warped wheel will cause wobble yes.
A bad flange that does not keep the wheel at a right angle on the shaft will cause also a wobble.
Stamped wheel flanges are a real cause of this problem, and the machined flanges of the Oneway Balancer does away with that problem.
If there is a warped wheel the Oneway balancer will not be able to rectify this, it does happen but most often it is the flanges that are at fault.

[Michael Gibbons]

Thanks, Gordon. I looked around for it, but not much luck. The reviews concerned me too, as it seems another machine where if you get the right one (built on Tuesday, everyone's awake?) you're in luck, if not it's a bust.

I'm leaning toward putting a Baldor on my Craig's List "watch for" list and in the meantime limp along with the Woodcraft. thanks for the link to the Norton wheels too!

Jamie, I posted in the general forum about this same subject. There are places in California and Utah that still has them according to their websites. Google Delta 23-725 8" grinder. I beleive one is a plumbers outlet of some sort. the reason I didn't buy from them is the shipping. About $160 to Michigan. I finally found one at the last place I checked here. Good Luck!

[Jamie Straw]

Hi, Michael, thanks for alerting me. I'm out of the race, though. First of all, I had to zip my wallet :rolleyes: , except for Amazon (gift cert). Also, the reviews on that grinder aren't consistent enough for me to take a chance on something heavy that has to be shipped. I'll make do with the cheap grinder I have, and start following Craig's List and any news about something decent coming from Delta/Jet/etc.

[Clint Baxter]

I picked up an 8" Jet grinder for myself after reading reviews on the Delta Variable speed, the Woodcraft slow speed, as well as a host of others out there. Decided I couldn't afford the Baldor, but found the price for the Jet to be doable. Had a bit of vibration when I first ran it up, but it didn't quite do a two step off the bench. It came with the cheap wheels so the first order of business was to get some good wheels. Picked up the 3X Norton K wheels and when I put them on the grinder, I had much more vibration than I had with the cheapies that came with the grinder. After more reading, concluded that the stamped washers were the most likely culprit. Ordered the Oneway balancing system and was able to balance the wheels along with installing the machined washer system.

End result - a super smooth grinder with nice heavy wheel guards and high quality grinding wheels. The Jet is going to run you more than the Woodcraft or Delta and does not operate at their slower speeds. It is, however, still less than half the price of the Baldor, even after outfitting it with new Norton wheels and the Oneway balancing system.

Good luck on whichever path you take.

Clint

[Don Geiger]

Dear Fellow Woodturners:

At the encouragement of a few of the users of my wheel dressers, I took a look through the threads posted about wheel dressers. As a result, I joined Sawmill Creek today!

There seems to be a little confusion out there about the models of Geiger Wheel Dressers. The one Grumbine sells is the original Geiger Dresser. It was designed primarily for the machinist's market. Machinist's mostly use narrow tool rests (if measured front to back). The original Geiger Dresser has two guides machined one on the top and one on the bottom. One is for tool rests up to 1" and the other for tool rests up to 2" (MAXIMUM!).

Because a majority of the woodturners in the world use very wide tool rests (example: Wolverine is 3" and Veritas about the same) I redesigned the Geiger Dresser in 2006 so it will work well on the wider tool rest. The 2006 model (photos attached), because it is much longer front to back, creates a fulcrum point very close to the wheel. This reduces vibration and does not allow the diamond to be dragged downward by the wheel. The shorter model is still available, but it is not recommended that you use it on the wider tool rests, such is provided with a Wolverine system, Veritas etc.

The 2006 model for the wide tool rest is available exclusively through me. It can be seen at my website - PM for address.

I call this product "Geiger's Wheel Truing and Dressing Solution" because it trues the wheels by making the circumference of the wheels truely concentric the axle of your grinder and is also removes metal particles embedded in the aggregate of the wheels. If you make your wheels concentric to the axle (as they are mounted on your grinder) it eliminates the need to balance the wheels with weights. Vibration in your grinder will be reduced dramatically and your tools, when applied to the surface of the wheel, will not bounce.

Thanks!

Don Geiger