Laying a Veneer Panel

[Mike Henderson]

I'm working on some cabinets for a client and document my work so the client can see that I'm making progress (since I'm very slow). One thing I have to do is make some veneered back panels for the cabinets (one upper cabinet, and one lower cabinet).

In doing the back for the bottom cabinet, I took progress pictures to document the process of veneering a flat panel. You can see it here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Cabinets.htm).

Other people may use a different process and, if so, I'd like to hear how you do it. This process works for me but it's slow and labor intensive. Also, I have a very small shop and no special tools for veneer, so I have to improvise.

Mike

[P.S. I do know that I could buy walnut faced plywood.]

[Jamie Buxton]

Mike --

There are probably a dozen good ways to skin this cat. I do pretty much like you do, except:

* I use a jointer plane to joint the edges of the veneer bundle. It should give straighter edges than the block plane. I also don't sand the edges of the bundle; they're clean enough to use as-is.

* I don't do your step of masking tape on what will be the glue side. I just veneer-tape the leaves together on the show side.

* I use non-perforated veneer tape. I find the preforated stuff squidges all over the place, or tears. Non-perforated is stronger. Perhaps that is why I can do without your masking tape step.

* I used to try to soak the veneer tape off, but found that too often the liquified glue would soak into the veneer and leave a stain. Now I just sand the tape off, figuring that I'm going to be sanding the veneer anyhow.

[Carroll Courtney]

Mike,Jamie,when ya'll purchase veneer how do you order it.The few times that I have purchase some they start out by asking "How many sq ft. do you want",(which I think that is all the info they will go by)and while I have a general ideal I do want to have book match, so that runs the sq ft up quite abit.So I tell them that around 6"wide by 6'long and 10-pieces.Their responce is "We'll try to come close"---Well I don't want to be difficult and don't want them to do something that is custom.So how do you guys order your veneer?Mike,is the panel that you done the tutorial on is it 1/4?Did you veneer just one side or both?If you did do one side,do you have to worry about the panel warping?The cabinet looks good Mike and Jamie,like Mikes love your website very nice work----Carroll

[Peter Quinn]

Nice demo Mike. I haven't veneered any panels, and we use prepared panels at work, so its great to see your method. Any problems building or using the Joe woodworker vacuum press? I'm considering making one this spring and wondered how they were?

[Don Kondra]

Hi Mike,

It wasn't mentioned in your progress write up but are you not going to veneer the back of the panel ? :D

One bit of advice I can offer..

You say-


If you apply too little glue, the veneer will have bubbles where it didn't stick to the substrate. And if you apply too much glue, the glue will collect under the veneer and cause bubbles.

Obviously applying enough glue is important but IMHO you have skipped an important step and that is using a top caul in the bag.

As is, you are relying on the bag alone to apply pressure to the laminate. The addition of a top caul will assure a completely flat result.

This is especially important when using any curly veneer. The glue will fill under the curls and force them against the caul resulting in a flatter panel. Much less sanding later....

Don't forget to place a piece of plastic between the veneer and the caul :eek:

Cheers, Don

[Mike Henderson]

Mike,Jamie,when ya'll purchase veneer how do you order it.The few times that I have purchase some they start out by asking "How many sq ft. do you want",(which I think that is all the info they will go by)and while I have a general ideal I do want to have book match, so that runs the sq ft up quite abit.So I tell them that around 6"wide by 6'long and 10-pieces.Their response is "We'll try to come close"---Well I don't want to be difficult and don't want them to do something that is custom.So how do you guys order your veneer?Mike,is the panel that you done the tutorial on is it 1/4?Did you veneer just one side or both?If you did do one side,do you have to worry about the panel warping?The cabinet looks good Mike and Jamie,like Mikes love your website very nice work----Carroll
When I order veneer, I specify what's important to me. For example, if I need veneer that's 8" wide or more, I specify that. There's no "We'll try to come close". If they don't have it 8" wide or wider, I don't want it. I mostly order from Certainly Wood and they have always honored my specifications.

The substrate for that panel is 1/4" MDF. It is veneered on both sides but I did the veneering one side at a time. Since I work alone, I find it difficult to put a panel in the bag with veneer on both sides. I tend to catch the veneer on the bottom, then I have to pull it back out and fix the tear. I haven't had any problems with warping doing it that way.


Nice demo Mike. I haven't veneered any panels, and we use prepared panels at work, so its great to see your method. Any problems building or using the Joe woodworker vacuum press? I'm considering making one this spring and wondered how they were?
I bought the pump on eBay but the rest of the components are Joe Woodworker. It's pretty easy to put the kit together. One thing I'd do on my pump is put the tanks upright instead of horizontal so that the plumbing on the end is protected better.


Hi Mike,

It wasn't mentioned in your progress write up but are you not going to veneer the back of the panel ? :D

One bit of advice I can offer..

You say-



Obviously applying enough glue is important but IMHO you have skipped an important step and that is using a top caul in the bag.

As is, you are relying on the bag alone to apply pressure to the laminate. The addition of a top caul will assure a completely flat result.

This is especially important when using any curly veneer. The glue will fill under the curls and force them against the caul resulting in a flatter panel. Much less sanding later....

Don't forget to place a piece of plastic between the veneer and the caul :eek:

Cheers, Don
I'm aware of the use of cauls but I don't usually use them for a couple of reasons.

1. You need to make the caul to fit the panel. If you use a platen on the bottom you can't have a lot of overhang of the caul (caul much bigger than the panel) because the bag will put a fair amount of pressure on the overhand and lever the middle of the caul upward, meaning you won't get good pressure in the middle. This pretty much means you have to make a caul for each panel which gives you a lot of pieces of MDF hanging around the shop.

2. When you use a caul, you can't see how the veneer is laying. That is, if there's any problems with the veneer (bubbles, overlapping seams, etc.) you won't know it until you take the panel out of the bag - and then it's too late to do anything about it.

I have a seam roller and while the bag is pulling down, I'm smoothing out the bag over the panel and then when the bag is pulled down, I use the seam roller to address issues through the bag. If I can't get the veneer to my satisfaction, I can pull the panel out and try to fix the problem before the glue sets.

I used to use cauls but once I tried the bare bag approach, I decided to go that way.

Mike

[Don Kondra]

I'm aware of the use of cauls but I don't usually use them for a couple of reasons.

1. You need to make the caul to fit the panel. If you use a platen on the bottom you can't have a lot of overhang of the caul (caul much bigger than the panel) because the bag will put a fair amount of pressure on the overhand and lever the middle of the caul upward, meaning you won't get good pressure in the middle. This pretty much means you have to make a caul for each panel which gives you a lot of pieces of MDF hanging around the shop.

Do not mean to be arguementive. Consider the cost of a sheet of 1/4" MDF is ~$10. The results are worth using it and the cauls just keep getting smaller and smaller :cool:

I also use it for jigs, etc. so it gets used.


2. When you use a caul, you can't see how the veneer is laying. That is, if there's any problems with the veneer (bubbles, overlapping seams, etc.) you won't know it until you take the panel out of the bag - and then it's too late to do anything about it.

You don't need to "see" the lamination. The tape assures there will be no overlapping seams. Place the veneer on the core after applying glue, lay on the plastic and then the caul. The caul will keep everything in place until you can get it in the bag. There will be NO bubbles with a caul and the proper application of glue.


I have a seam roller and while the bag is pulling down, I'm smoothing out the bag over the panel and then when the bag is pulled down, I use the seam roller to address issues through the bag. If I can't get the veneer to my satisfaction, I can pull the panel out and try to fix the problem before the glue sets.

With all due respect, the caul eliminates all that fussing...


I used to use cauls but once I tried the bare bag approach, I decided to go that way.

Mike

Okay, just thought others would find the additional info helpful.

Cheers, Don

[Mike Henderson]

I'll just add a comment that the technique you describe is the technique taught at Cerritos College Woodworking, where I take classes. It is a good technique and works well. I used it for a couple of years and would recommend it to other woodworkers.

I've also had success with the bare bag approach and have stuck with it for the past year or so. As you say, it is fussy in that I have to work the bag and veneer as it's being pulled down.

Mike

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

I'll second that cauls are mandatory. They pretty much eliminate the possibility of bubbles, as long as there's enough glue. You just throw it in the bag, and your done.

I've use anything I've had laying around, even 1/8" masonite. I've even taped tow pieces of masonite together to make larger cauls.

[Jeff Nolan]

Hi Mike,
This is pretty timely as I am doing some veneering work at the moment (although my joewoodworker system is acting strangely and not cycling... I thought it was the vacuum controller but don't know how to test it).

You approach is pretty much what I do although I do like to use a platen.

Do you use any breather mesh on the underside of the piece when it's in the bag?




I used to use cauls but once I tried the bare bag approach, I decided to go that way.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Hi Mike,
This is pretty timely as I am doing some veneering work at the moment (although my joewoodworker system is acting strangely and not cycling... I thought it was the vacuum controller but don't know how to test it).

You approach is pretty much what I do although I do like to use a platen.

Do you use any breather mesh on the underside of the piece when it's in the bag?
I had that problem of the pump not cycling and found it to be the controller. I adjusted the vacuum a couple of times (screw adjustment) and then it was okay. I actually have two vacuum pumps - both Joe Woodworker kits - and they both did exactly the same thing, and the fix was the same for both. I think the stuff inside that controller gets stuck.

I do have breather mesh under the panel to help evacuate the air. I have to roll up my bag in between uses so the platen would have to be inserted and removed each time, and stored between uses. I just leave the breather mesh in the bag when I roll it up. Some of the things I do are dictated by my very small shop and limited storage space.

Mike

[Thomas S Stockton]

Mike,
I do a fair amount of veneering and would second the recommendation of using a top and bottom caul.
I don't use veneer tape, I use either blue painters tape or delicate release tape. If I'm worried about veneer chips lifting I heat the tape with a hair dryer when pulling it up. I've had problems with the glue from veneer tape leaving residue that is imbedded into the veneer and won't come out, plus it is a pain to deal with.
I use a router and template bit to joint my veneers, fairly similar to what you do, but I find it faster.
Mikes description on how to order veneers is good I usually use 4 different sources depending on what I need my go to source is www.berkshireveneers.com folowed by www.certainlywood.com
www.wood-veneers.com or
www.theveneerstore.com
They are all good sources but Ben at Berkshire is a great person to deal with and the owner of B&B Rare woods (wood-veneers.com) is great to deal with also. Both have done lots to help me find what I needed when they didn't have it.
Tom

[Ed Leach]

Mike,
Thanks for the great information and pictures. I am new to veneer work and was wondering if 3/4" baltic birch could be used as a substrate for 1/42" cherry veneer? Also, have you ever made your own veneer by resawing down to 1/16" or so? If so, do you use the same technique for straightening edges prior to gluing?

[Chris Padilla]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=92396

Check out my tansu thread...fun stuff veneering....

[Van Huskey]

1. I also use cauls on the top, but would never tell someone you "HAVE" to do anything to get a good result.

2. I trim my veneer with a flush cut router bit using a jig very similar to yours except with more room for the router plate to sit. I make two passes one a "normal" cut to hog most of the excess off, move the veneer and out ~1/16" then a reverse or "climb" cut to finish it, although rarely needed I almost always hit it with the sanding block before unclamping

3. I pretty much exclusivly use dry powder urea glue instead of PVAs. Although your example is one I would consider using a PVA for if I was out of urea glue

4. For removing the tape I use a letter moistner (sponge on the end of a clear plastic toothpaste tube kinda thing) which works fine and keeps the water usage down and any potential problems from that

5. to return to #1 you wrote "As the panels get larger, they get much more difficult. It's harder to get the edges of the veneer straight, it's harder to handle a large panel of fragile veneer, and it's much more difficult to get a large panel into the bag by yourself. " a top caul taped in place with make these issues much less of a problem

[Alan Schwabacher]

I would have thought that without a top caul the veneer would break over the edge, which could cause damage that would need to be trimmed off. I suppose this is not a problem if your panel will be trimmed later anyway. Is there a lesser need to trim the panel afterward if you use a top caul?

[Mike Henderson]

5. to return to #1 you wrote "As the panels get larger, they get much more difficult. It's harder to get the edges of the veneer straight, it's harder to handle a large panel of fragile veneer, and it's much more difficult to get a large panel into the bag by yourself. " a top caul taped in place with make these issues much less of a problem
The problem I'm having is laying a large panel with fairly narrow veneer (let's say 3.5" trimmed - sometimes that's what you have). So let's say it takes ten or twelve pieces to cover a panel and those pieces are almost six feet long.

Further, let's say that when you trim your veneer, you are just a bit "off" and you flare one end of the veneer by 1/32" - example: your veneer pieces are 3.5" wide for most of the length but on one end, starting about in the middle and going to the end, the stack tapers by 1/32". So that end is 3.5" + 1/32" (it could alternately be 3.5" - 1/32").

I start laying the veneer from one side, moving to the other side. The first two pieces go together fine because I can "stretch (or compress)" the veneer by 1/32". But the third piece now has to be "stretched" by 2/32" (1/16"), etc. By the time I get to the twelfth piece, I'm trying to stretch the veneer by 11/32" or about a third of an inch. Obviously, the veneer won't stretch that much. I have to go back and carefully hand sand the edge of each piece of veneer where it's too wide to try to get it to fit together.

How do you cut your veneer stack of narrow veneer "exactly" the same width over maybe six feet? Narrow veneer, especially, is hard to get to lay straight in the shooting rig.

I've gotten to the point where I just won't use narrow veneer for big panels (if you only have four or five pieces and you're off by 1/32" you can make them fit) and I now try to work from the middle to both ends. Any other solutions?

Mike

[Van Huskey]

The problem I'm having is laying a large panel with fairly narrow veneer (let's say 3.5" trimmed - sometimes that's what you have). So let's say it takes ten or twelve pieces to cover a panel and those pieces are almost six feet long.

Further, let's say that when you trim your veneer, you are just a bit "off" and you flare one end of the veneer by 1/32" - example: your veneer pieces are 3.5" wide for most of the length but on one end, starting about in the middle and going to the end, the stack tapers by 1/32". So that end is 3.5" + 1/32" (it could alternately be 3.5" - 1/32").

I start laying the veneer from one side, moving to the other side. The first two pieces go together fine because I can "stretch (or compress)" the veneer by 1/32". But the third piece now has to be "stretched" by 2/32" (1/16"), etc. By the time I get to the twelfth piece, I'm trying to stretch the veneer by 11/32" or about a third of an inch. Obviously, the veneer won't stretch that much. I have to go back and carefully hand sand the edge of each piece of veneer where it's too wide to try to get it to fit together.

How do you cut your veneer stack of narrow veneer "exactly" the same width over maybe six feet? Narrow veneer, especially, is hard to get to lay straight in the shooting rig.

I've gotten to the point where I just won't use narrow veneer for big panels (if you only have four or five pieces and you're off by 1/32" you can make them fit) and I now try to work from the middle to both ends. Any other solutions?

Mike


I got ya know. Different problem than I thought you meant, rereading it was my comprehenson not your verbiage.

First, I must say I tend to avoid narrow veneers for a wide panel, given I am a hobbyist and all my work is either for me or being gifted I do not have to please a client or deal with a timeline so if the ideal flitch is not available I just change tack or wait.

I have two suggestions, one try bowing the beam of the shooting rig (like a glue caul) so it reduces the movement of the veneer within the stack. I did not see your beam without pressure so it may be bowed, it just doesn't look like it under pressure. Also, try the router instead of the plane, though I am not sure the latter will help I think you will like the efficiency. A Colt is excellent here. In a worst case senario where I had to use a LOT of long thin strips I would whip up purpose sized platen and beam and rout both sides without ever unclamping, this might be a little extreme but I can't see it being off enough to be an issue unless you are using over 20 strips especially if you work from the middle as you suggest.


Good luck and you have some really nice veneer work on your site, big fan of the sand shaded fans!

[Don Kondra]

On all but the most difficult veneers, I just run the stack through the jointer using a sacrifical board to hold the stack tight against the fence.

Cheers, Don

[Mike Henderson]

I don't have a power jointer in my small shop. However, I have cut a stack of veneer on the table saw after making a sandwich as you describe. I use 1/4" MDF and shoot pins through the MDF and the veneer to hold it together. The small holes from the pins are never noticed.

Mike