Finally, a shop!

[Matt Walton]

It's been a while, but after some slightly strange occurrences, I finally get a shop. It's not going to be very big, the outside has to be 16x16, so the inside will probably end up around 15x15, but it should work. It will be built inside a hangar, I will get A/C and heat, and best of all, it won't leak! The tool location right now is not much better than sitting outside. About a month and a half ago, I got home, went to check on the tools (it had been raining), and they were sitting in at least an inch of water, so I called my dad, and we had to make an emergency evacuation to higher ground. This will be much better. Tomorrow I will try to get some pictures of the tool's current homes, the higher ground, and the site of the future shop.
I'm excited!

[Mike Cruz]

Congrats, Matt. Have fun designing the new shop! Get those pics taken and uploaded...

[Matt Walton]

Thanks, I'll have some questions on the way, which at the moment, is lighting. I know there have been some threads, so I might try to find some of those. My dad and I were wondering about recessed florescent strips. What do you think?

[Mike Cruz]

How high is your ceiling? Will you have an open ceiling (rafters showing) or finished (flat ceiing)? If open, you might want to hang them from the rafters so you can take advantage of the space between them to flip boards around. If flat/finished, definitely recessed to give you as much space as possible.

Remember that even if you have 10 feet ceilings, if you flip an 8 foot board end over end, you are only clearing the floor and ceiling by 1 foot. So, if you aren't paying attention, you could whack the lights (or anything else) pretty easily.

[Matt Walton]

10 foot finished. that's kind of why I was thinking the recessed lights, to give me more room. kind of like this:http://img.archiexpo.com/images_ae/photo-g/ceiling-mounted-fluorescent-luminaire-160180.jpg

[Mike Cruz]

Yup, recessed is your best bet in my opinion.

Now, you can never have too much lighting. So what I would reccommend, is to kind of "over-do" it, but put the lights on multiple switches. By that I mean that in a 15 x 15 shop, put 2 rows of 6' lights with each row having 5 fixtures (start by having the fixtures on the ends of the rows 1 foot from the wall, and spacing the remaining 3 fixtures evenly apart in each row). The two fixtures on the ends and the one in the middle (in a given row) are on one switch (call those the "odd" fixtures). The ones between them are on another switch (call those the "even" fixtures). So your shop would have 4 switches.

The advantage of doing it this way is that you can conserve electricity when you want/need to by only having as much light as you need. But when you want/need a LOT of light, you have it. Believe me, to have when you need is WAY better than to find out later that you didn't have enough.

When my brother and I were working out my shop, on paper, what I did looked, well, fine. When we had it all wired in, and lit up, MAN, it looked like the sun was IN my shop. Then, as all the equipment got in, all of a sudden, things started sucking up the light. I had thought we TOTALLY overdid it. But now, I almost alway use all the lights, unless it is really sunny out.

[Matt Walton]

But now, I almost alway use all the lights, unless it is really sunny out.
Yeah, and I don't think I will have windows except in the doors.

[Matt Walton]

Here are some pics of the hangar, which would make nearly anybody jealous to think about all that space. It's not so great on the inside, as you will see.

[Mike Cruz]

Matt, you HAVE to lobby for more than 16 x16!!!!!!!!! You've just GOT to!!!!!! That building is HUGE, dude.

[Matt Walton]

This is my current work space. See the bike in the last pic? I took the first two pictures from the top of the building, right next to the bike.

[Matt Walton]

But remember how I said it's a hangar? that means that we have to be able to fit two airplanes at any given time. usually it's a Cessna 185, and a Cessna 150 (converted to a taildragger).

[Matt Walton]

oh, and there's a hangar office and a train room. http://northtexasnarrowgauge.com/
that's my dad's layout website.

[Clancy Courtney]

This is too much!

[Matt Walton]

too much in what way?

Anyways, Here is where my dad and I moved it to when my area flooded.
Now even more tools are over there because we needed to clear my area to put my dad's 8'x3' workbench in it, since we are clearing the corner area out to have it started. They deliver the stuff Monday, and start Tuesday, so we need to get that whole corner cleared out.

[Matt Walton]

The first three pictures are where the shop is going to be. We are going to try to keep the parts washer very close to where it is, because the 55 gallon drum of mineral spirits is pretty close to full, AKA very heavy. The last two pictures are what the building will look like on the outside, except mine will have no windows.
I just found out yesterday that the doors will be opening inwards. It's rotten, I know.

[Leigh Betsch]

Go with sliding doors. Saves space and you can make your own.

[Matt Walton]

how would I do that?

[Leigh Betsch]

I'll take a pic of a sliding door I have in my shop tomorrow. No big deal just slides like a small barn door. Then you wont have a problem with the space a door takes up when it swings in or out.

[Matt Walton]

Well, we started the shop today. My dad wanted me helping builders (both very good friends), just to learn about it a little bit, and I figured that I would just be fetching supplies. Boy I was wrong! I just about did the first whole wall myself. They constructed the outer rectangle while I was cutting boards to length, and then I used a nailer to nail the studs in place while they held them. then I used a different pneumatic nailer/super duper stapler to fasten the OSB in place. That thing's scary! There is nearly no resistance to the trigger, and it's one of the kinds where you can just hold it down and hit where you want to shoot, and I only started to get pretty good at fastening the OSB by the third wall.
The pictures were taken pretty late in the build, as you can see, there are already two walls up in the first picture,and we were about to raise the third one, we were just waiting for help on the opposite side to keep from it tipping over too far.
The second picture is the third wall waiting to be raised.
The third picture is everybody leaning up against the wall to keep it from falling over.
Fourth is (from left to right) my brother, my dad's friend, and my dad (hiding behind the ladder) helping from the opposite side.
Fifth is us watching Butch nail the frame together. I'm in the green shirt with the ponytail.
Last is three walls up. Beginning to take shape.
We will probably complete the fourth wall (with a hole for the door in it) and the ceiling (I guess) tomorrow.

[Mike Cruz]

Lookin' good, Matt. Keep us up to date with the progress...

[Mitchell Andrus]

But remember how I said it's a hangar? that means that we have to be able to fit two airplanes at any given time. usually it's a Cessna 185, and a Cessna 150 (converted to a taildragger).

A 150 converted? I've never seen one. How did that get certified? Factory kit?

My son is at UND Aerospace and will get a Dragger endorsement next semester (choppers next year care of our Uncle Sam)... They have a Decathalon. Yipee... upside-down without getting yelled at.
.

[Mitchell Andrus]

That layout is sweet. Give kudos to your dad for me.
.

[George Bregar]

I don't know about recessed, it reduces light being emitted horizontally and the lenses reduce light in general. If you go this route more sources will be required.

[Matt Walton]

A 150 converted? I've never seen one. How did that get certified? Factory kit?
It just looks like a 140, or a 180/185 from far away. I'm not sure how it got certified, our mechanic who does the annuals did it, so I guess he got it certified or something. That layout room would be a great shop, but it's come too far for that.
we are not going to go with recessed, but probably with an acrylic shield to keep dust out. I will have some more pictures later tonight.

[Matt Walton]

it was an STC conversion.

[Matt Walton]

We got a lot done today.
First off, the last wall was completed, with a hole for the door of course. putting the OSB on was a bit more complicated, as we built the wall outside of the building, so first we raised the wall, and once they had that nailed in place, we tacked the OSB on, which was a little harder, since it was standing up, but not too bad.
After that, we got the rafters up, and once they had those nailed in, they put an OSB sheet up top, and I stapled it in. After that, one of the contractors ("Butch") and I got up there as the other one (Adam) hoisted the sheets to us, and we put them in place, and once they were all up there, we stapled them all in place.
We also started to get the siding on, but it got too high for me to reach it, so they will return Monday with scaffolding to finish the job, but they got started on the other side too.
First three pics are just the frame sitting on the ground.
Fourth,Fifth, and Sixth are the top part of the door frame.
Seventh is Adam putting up the first board on the outside, and Eighth is the wall with all the OSB on it.

Oh yeah, I also got to use the foundation gun (BANG!).
What would you guys recommend for lights? We are going to use 4' fixtures, but my dad and I were wondering what y'all would recommend as far as 3x3 with 4-light fixtures, 3x4 with 2-light fixtures etc.

[Matt Walton]

The first one is simply a shot from the inside with the fourth wall in place.
Second, Third, and Fourth is just the rafters from different angles, the last of which has the first sheet in place.
Fifth and Sixth is most of the siding in place (done for today).
Seventh and Eighth are shots from the inside with the roof stapled down.
It's getting darker in there. :rolleyes:
I was wanting to get a shot from the top, maybe I will do that tomorrow, as there is a strip that needs to be stapled over a crack to keep the rats/mice out, so I need to go up there anyway.

[Mike Cruz]

Moving right along, Matt. Looks great.

[Leigh Betsch]

What have you decided to do for a door? Sorry I haven' gotten you a pic of my sliding door yet, just can't seem to remember to take the camera out to the shop. And now I have to crawl over a snowbank to get there!
Looking good. Next comes the electrical!

[Matt Walton]

Thanks Mike!
Leigh: We are just going with double doors that open inward. My dad does not like sliding doors, he says the ones that slide on the exterior cannot get a good seal (as we will have heating and cooling), and if the ones that slide inside the wall ever get off the tracks, you have to rip the whole wall out to get to them.

[Leigh Betsch]

Yep he's right they don't seal very well. The ones I have are in buildings that are not heated or cooled. If you are trying to keep your shop a different temp than the hanger they probably aren't the best. And I wouldn't use the inside the wall doors either. So you are stuck trying to plan your shop layout to work around the doors swings.

[Matt Walton]

Yeah, they could open outwards if it weren't for those darn airplane wings.

[Matt Walton]

So, as you can see, we are getting pretty close to the point where we need lights, so we need to know what to get. Any suggestions? We are going to use 4' light fixtures.

[John A Walker]

But remember how I said it's a hangar? that means that we have to be able to fit two airplanes at any given time. usually it's a Cessna 185, and a Cessna 150 (converted to a taildragger).

Does it come with a 'Sat-Nav' or a site map!!!

Nice workspace


John

[Matt Walton]

Sorry for not posting for a while, but the electrician came Tuesday and Wednesday, and they are almost done. I took some pictures, but it's just a bunch of wires and pvc pipe (and a breaker box). But if you want, I can put some pictures up. Wednesday, they put the light switches in, as well as hang a couple of light bulbs, just to light it up a little bit. As soon as the insulation and drywall are installed, the electrician will hang the lights for "free".

[Matt Walton]

They have all the insulation and sheetrock in there, and the ceiling is textured. They also got the doors in, and since they were using a propane heater, as you walk in the room, you wonder if it's really the best idea, as they kept it sealed up to keep the heat in (aka the gas).
Coming along nicely...

[Matt Walton]

Here is a bunch of pictures to supplement what I've been talking about.

Picture 1: Just the switch box, not much to look at, but oh well.
Picture 2: The wall is wired up, with 3 110 outlets on each wall, and 1 220 outlet on each wall, not including the door wall.
Picture 3: The ceiling wired up to accommodate the light fixtures.
Picture 4: Just a piece of pipe that the wires are running through.
Picture 5: The breaker box and insulation installed.
Picture 6: Sheetrock partially hung, with respect given to the wires "if we don't get the wires through, the electricians will make some big ugly holes to find them"
Picture 7: It's basically finished from the outside, just need the cover plate for the switches, and some touchup work done on the door.
Picture 8: the temporary light bulbs to provide some light.

Today they got the lights installed, there are some problems with the outlet hole being too big for the cover plate, and a crack in the sheetrock seam, but overall very nice, and extremely bright. I'll try to get some pics of that tomorrow.
Oh yeah, the A/C was also hooked up, but doesn't work quite right, so the AC man will come sometime to figure out what's wrong.

[Art Mulder]

Looks like a quick build. There's something fun about a blank slate that you can work with, starting fresh inside the shop...
Also the whole building-within-a-building idea is interesting.

But I don't understand why you built four walls instead of just two? Your shop is shoved right into the corner of the hanger, so why didn't you just use the two outside hanger walls and insulate them? For one thing, that'd give you the option of putting in a window.

...art

[Matt Walton]

You know, I never really thought about it, but I asked my dad, and he had a few reasons why.
1. It would just sort of be more trouble than it's worth, as in it would be really hard to join the wood walls to the metal walls, what with the pipe and all.
2. As air is the best insulator, having the air cushion will help energy costs, since the metal gets really hot in the summer.
3. And as for the windows, my dad just figured less windows=more space to hang stuff.

And, my opinion to go along with #3, that would be two less walls with studs on them, ergo only two walls to hang on.
Am I crazy for needing that much wall space?

We were going to have windows in the doors, but he decided against it, which kind of disappoints me, but oh well.

[Mitchell Andrus]

And, my opinion to go along with #3, that would be two less walls with studs on them, ergo only two walls to hang on.
Am I crazy for needing that much wall space?



Nope, you'll find that you still won't have enough wall. Hanging stuff on the wall gets it off the floor.
.

[Matt Walton]

It's always good to know you're not crazy. :D

[Martin Shupe]

Matt,

This is a very timely thread for me.

I am hoping to start my hangar/shop building later this spring.

I read about the 4 walls. Did you attach the two corner walls to the steel in some way? I ask because I am wondering about how to do this, or even if it needs to be done. I was planning on windows, but now I am not so sure. More wall space is very appealing to me.

Are you going to put in a wooden floor? or leave it concrete?

I am thinking about a 20 by 40 foot shop in the back 1/3 of a 60 by 60 metal hangar. I am concerned that 20 might be a little narrow, so I am considering pushing out part of the hangar wall about 10 more feet so it would be 30 by 40. I am going to make the ceiling 12' tall, allowing some room under the ceiling for dust collection and lights. I will have a storage area on top of my shop, accessible from the hangar.

I need to talk to the hangar contractor about my ideas, and to get a better idea of the price, to see if my dream is bigger than my wallet.

Your 150 is probably a "Texas taildragger" STC conversion.

Are you are Northwest Regional?

[Matt Walton]

The walls are only connected to themselves.
We are going to go with polished concrete.
And the narrowness of your shop: not to complain, but mine is only ~15x15 on the inside, so I would think that 20' would be plenty big, but (up to a certain extent) the more space the better I always thought. Windows would be nice I would think, but something to keep in mind is that windows are for light, and depending on the design, there might not be much of that in the hangar. Ours is basically really thick sheet metal, so we have some translucent material in some places to act as skylights, so that does let some light in.
I don't think that it's a "true" Texas Taildragger. I hear those are really squirrely on the ground.
We are at Stagecoach Hills. Where are you?

Edit: What I meant by my dimensions was that 15' is not huge, but it seems like it will be sufficient, so I would think that 20' would be fine. But again, the more space the better IMHO.

[Keith Weber]

And I thought that I was the only one building a hangar shop! My shop is going to be 12'x49' on the back wall of a 50'x60' hangar. Unfortunately, I could only afford 8'2" in height because I have plans for the space above, but it's still better than the 7'4" that I have in my present basement shop. I'm just leaving the concrete/epoxy on the floor, since I'm tight on height. It'll also make it easier to roll heavy stuff in/out of the shop.

Matt,

I'm enjoying the progress shots. If it were me, I'd reconsider the window thing -- if not for the light, then just so you don't feel like you're locked in a square box. You wouldn't loose that much wall space with one or maybe two small windows. For lighting, I'm planning on using the 2'x4' fluorescent T8 4-light trays to be flush in a drop ceiling. I used them in my basement shop, and they give off lots of light and disperses it a little better than can lights IMO. How big is the hangar?

Martin,

Twenty feet in width is plenty IMO, since you have the length. If you want to rip 12' boards, then you need about 25 feet of length to cover your infeed and outfeed of your table saw. If you only had 25 feet of length, your table saw, mitre saw, planer and jointer would all be battling for a spot in the middle of your shop. Since you have 40 feet of length, you have the flexibility in placing these machines. I used SketchUp to figure out that I could get away with 11'5" in width, which would allow me to have permanently-placed machines along both of the long walls, some machines on wheels in the middle, and still leave me enough room to walk/work between the tools. Any narrower than that, and I wouldn't be able to put tools in the middle. I'd love to have 20' of width, but you have to remember that a hangar is a hangar. If you use up too much of the space, then it looses its function/value as a hangar, and you end up with an over-priced workshop on an airport that you might have a hard time selling in the future.

[Matt Walton]

It's much too late for windows at this point, the walls already have sheetrock, the lights are hung, and the doors are in. I would like windows in the doors, but it's too late for that. We are using the light fixtures used in the FWW magazine light article. As soon as the walls are retextured (they were retaped today) we will have the floor polished; to quote my dad "you don't have to worry about anything peeling up, because there is nothing to peel up" (it was a decision between epoxy & polishing).
I believe it's 50x60, so now it's basically like a T-hangar.

[Martin Shupe]

I am in Pecan Plantation, which is south of Granbury.

My shop will be in the back 1/3 of the hangar. The hangar will be 60 by 60, so I will still have 40' of clearance in front of the shop for an airplane.

Yes, resale value is important, but once I have my shop, I will probably live in this house until I die. My wife will have to worry about resale, I doubt I will.

The shop will be against the wall that faces the front of my property. That is the wall where I am considering windows. I will put translucent "skylight" panels in the ceiling of the hangar, but I realize that windows that open towards the hangar are of little value.

If I put windows in, they will start at 8' and go to 11' or so. That way people cannot look into the shop, and the walls will be mostly clear below that level, but the windows will still provide light.

I will have to talk to the builder(s) about the window/wall interface. At first I will not be able to afford it, but I would like to air condition the shop eventually, so I want to plan for that and install good insulation.

I need to get serious about my plans if I am going to get this going this spring.

[Matt Walton]

Hey, that's neat! My aunt and uncle live there!
That's a good idea for the windows. I noticed that in an earlier post you said you will have storage up top, so I was wondering how you plan to get up there.
Here's what my dad has to say about the conversion: "It’s not a Texas Taildragger conversion. The Texas Taildragger used the main gear from the 150/152 which is entirely too low and the wrong shape for a taildragger and they are horrible on the ground. This conversion is an STC from David Lowe in Kentucky which uses Cessna 140 parts. The early 150’s were just 140 fuselages anyway."

[Matt Walton]

Well, the walls are painted, the floor is polished, the A/C is hooked up, that can only mean one thing:
TIME TO MOVE IN!!
I know it's pretty close to move in time, but I was wondering if anybody could give me layout tips.
139790
What I have to go in there is:
Contractor TS - 3' 6" x 4' 9" (center middle)
Rikon 14" Bandsaw - 2' 2" x 1' 9" (center left)
Workbench - 2'x4' I plan to expand/make a new one at about 3'x6' (top middle-right)
Paint Booth - 2'x3' (top right)
Router Table - 2'x2' 6" (center right)
Combo Belt Sander - 1'x1' 6" (center-lower right)
Floor Standing Drill Press - 2'x1' (lower right)
Wall Mount Pegboard cabinet 2'x1' (top middle-left)
Possibly other 3'x6' workbench (lower left)
We also plan to get the quintessential beginner's DC: Harbor Freight 2HP (top left)

Is this a ridiculous layout (probably)? Is it perfect (very probably not)? what needs improvement?
I also plan to get a benchtop planer (DW735)
And, I plan to make something like this
139794
http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip010518sn.html

Any other ideas?
Also, is there any tool that is very not safe to put on casters? Our bandsaw said to bolt it to the ground, but is that just to keep the lawyers away? do you recommend a caster?

[Art Mulder]

Is this a ridiculous layout (probably)? Is it perfect (very probably not)? what needs improvement?
I also plan to get a benchtop planer (DW735)
And, I plan to make something like this
139794
http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip010518sn.html

Matt,

Even with a decent DC, my shop still gets dusty. Therefore, I really do not like open shelves and other such dust collectors. So I would NOT build that power-tool caddy that you show. Instead I put my ROS + drills into drawers below my workbench. They're nicely out of sight, and closed away from the dust.

In your shop you probably are going to want to be careful with how you use your space. I wonder if you might consider taking that 3x6 assembly table in the lower left, and putting it on the back of the saw as an outfeed table. Then incorporate your routertable into this overall unit also. Now instead of three separate tools, you have one unit that is smaller than the three items separately, and is a compact use of space. The downside is that you probably can't use the TS at the same time you have something going together on the assembly table. That's just a suggestion for you to think about.

No jointer?

[Paul Snowden]

Where is your wood storage?

[Joe Wiliams]

Personal opinion here.... I don't like having my back to the door when operating tools, especially the table saw. Two reasons: I don't want someone coming up behind me and if there were to be a kickback incident I'd rather have it hit a nearby wall than go out into the open where someone could be standing or walking by.

[Matt Walton]

Well, the router table is already built, so there's nothing we can do about that, and as for the other bench, I just found out that he doesn't want it in there, so that point is null.
So, do you think I could put doors on the shelves to keep the dust out, or just abandon the idea altogether? I am fairly tall (~6'), so I would like most stuff easily accessible. Should I make some simple cabinets to put stuff in?
Where should I have my wood storage?
So, just turn the saw around 180 degrees?

[Matt Walton]

Well, my uncle called my dad today asking if he should get the DW735 for $270 or whatever it is, so now I have another tool to find a place for. :)
I was thinking about building the "Flip Top Tool Stand" from a book that I got with ShopNotes, and I was planning on putting the planer on one side, and the Ryobi belt sander on the other, but the planer is about 100 lbs. so I hear, so I'm just a bit worried that it would be too unbalanced. what do you guys do for your benchtop planer? do you just put it on your workbench?

[Art Mulder]

Matt, a fliptop stand works fine.

I built a fliptop stand (http://www.wordsnwood.com/2007/p.fliptop/) 2-3 years ago for myh dw735 and still use it. I even started out with nothing on the other side of the planer, and it still worked fine, even with that weight.

[Matt Walton]

OK, great!
I will build that as soon as I finish my mom's knife block from popular woodworking. We had a friend plane it down for us, but it is inaccurate, to say the least.
Which brings me to another question: does the DW735 work right out of the box, or do you have to tune it up first?

[Matt Walton]

Well, the planer came Monday, so I put it on a metal stand we have and put it into the shop. We also took the bandsaw off the base and moved it in, as it was slightly too tall to move in under the doorway when also on the dolly. I'm kind of worried, because I would like to have it on casters, but I don't think you can put them on at this point, can you? And if it was possible, would that be okay? Because in the manual, Rikon said to bolt it to the floor, but on their FAQ on their website, they recommended a caster. Huh?:confused:

[Matt Walton]

...but on their FAQ on their website, they recommended a caster. Huh?:confused:
Which also appears to be discontinued.

[Matt Walton]

Well, I moved in (partially) Friday, and have some pics of the it at the moment, but I'm not sure I like the layout. I'm not sure what, it's just something.
The cabinet looking thing is a pegboard storage cabinet, and will be mounted on the wall. From the door, the TS outfeed is to your left. I have already decided that the bandsaw is in the wrong place, it's right in the way of the tablesaw, and I plan to get most everything on casters, the planer and bench sander will be on a flip top tool stand, and the drill press is in the near right corner (from the door). My dad gave me the bookcase, as we were clearing out the other office, and had that left over, so I took it. I have been mulling over a retrofit to add doors to it to keep the sawdust out.
Here's what I was thinking:
Route two dadoes, one behind the other, on top of each shelf (where you could see it, top of shelf, bottom of shelf space), and attach a piece of wood to the bottom of the shelf (top of shelf space), adding one sliding door, gluing another piece like the first one, adding the next shelf, and then finishing it off with a piece on the front to keep it from falling out.
Did any of that make sense?
But while I was typing this message, I thought about tambour doors, which WWJ did a tambour type door by gluing slats of wood onto a piece of heavy cloth.

Question? Suggestions (please)?

[Mike Cruz]

Looking good, Matt. Now get some dust in that place would ya?! Looks like an operating room...

[Matt Walton]

Speaking of which, is it imperative that I have dust collection right away before I start sawing? Or should I start by buying a good respirator?

[Matt Walton]

This good enough fer ya?!