With recent thread now looking for a decent RAS.

[Glen Butler]

I have been thinking an RAS would be nice if only for rough cutting materials because I get bored waiting for the miter saw to spool up when I am rough cutting cabinet door parts. I heard the older craftsman's were alright. So hear are a few links to some for sale in my area. I have never used one so input would be appreciated.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=9008883&cat=&lpid=

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=8982109&cat=&lpid=

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=8837724&cat=&lpid=1

Is there any was to make this a single phase?
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=8821682&cat=&lpid=1

This one looks like a winner.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=8823992&cat=&lpid=1

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=8689798&cat=&lpid=2

[Greg Wittler]

Is there any was to make this a single phase?
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=8821682&cat=&lpid=1

you can get a phase converter, but that could cost more than the saw.

[Chip Lindley]

kslcom. seems to be down tonight. Can't connect.

But, A static phase converter on a large RAS still gives 2/3 horsepower. Very economical to power up a big machine that will still have plenty of power for any homeshop job.

If more 3ph. machines are contemplated in your woodworking future, a rotary converter is still pretty economical, considering how cheaply many industrial-grade machines can be had. Many shun them for the very fact that they can't be run on house current.

I've used a 5hp Arco Roto-Phase for years to power any 3ph. machine up to 5hp. Now that I have a 7.5hp Rockwell RAS I upgraded to a 7.5hp RPC for a few hundred more.

I like the Delta/Rockwell RAS's because the track rods can be rotated (or replaced) for a brand new bearing surface. Saws with bearing rollers running in machined tracks in a cast iron arm are prone to wear that can only be repaired by expensive re-machining of the tracks. The Delta 12" RAS is a nice machine! IF only the arm was a bit longer! *sighs* But you won't go wrong with a big 3-5hp Rockwell/Delta if it is solid. Good Luck RAS Hunting!

[Mike Heidrick]

Any derration needed when it comes to sizing a RPC?

[Chip Lindley]

Mike, some brands of RPC are hyped! The Arco models are honestly rated. A 5hp Model A will run any 5hp motor. One must check the specs of any given RPC to see if it will actually start the largest 3ph. motor you contemplate. Some give their output in amps. Others use KVA. Here's a neat page for calculating KVA and HP if it doesn't come easy to you. http://www.tvss.net/train/tools/08.htm

[Bob Aquino]

I have been thinking an RAS would be nice if only for rough cutting materials because I get bored waiting for the miter saw to spool up when I am rough cutting cabinet door parts. I heard the older craftsman's were alright. So hear are a few links to some for sale in my area. I have never used one so input would be appreciated.


You heard wrong about the old craftsmen saws. Stick with either an old (pre 60's vintage) Dewalt with a solid cast iron arm like an mbf/mbc or ge model or one of the older Delta turret style saws. The 900 series deltas were the lightweight models, similar to the mbf/mbc saws. If you find a early Dewalt or Delta and it says it has a 2 hp motor in it, it will make that HP. Don't hold your breath with a sears or monkey ward saw.

That one Dewalt you reference is huge. It will weigh over 500 lbs. Not quite in the same league as the other sears machines. Stick with something 12" or less, more likely 10" and you should be fine.

[William Schmitz]

That gold craftsman with the oval arm may be good. I recall doing research on these serveral years ago and those were old enough to be good. To get some differentiation between the old craftsmans you will need to look out on the internet specific to those saws. There are plenty of people who are into them and can help you out.

My first recommendation, however, is in sync with the group here - an old DeWalt or Delta. Actually, with Delta the later models with turret are fine too. Delta still makes a fine 12 inch that can be readily found used for around 400 to 600.

I have a DeWalt GWI, which is the 10 inch model from the late 1950s. You will soon see that with the old DeWalts, the small - 8 or 9 inch - and monster - 14, 16, 18 inch - models are readily available, but the 10 and 12 are much harder to find. The one you liked is enormous. It looks like regular RAS is the pics, but you will find it is twice as large in real life.

Plan to get the Mr. Sawdust book and spend a few evenings setting up your old DeWalt RAS. Then you good to go for several years.

[Mike Reinholtz]

Another option to the rotary phase converter is using a VFD (variable frequency drive). I recently did a big change up of tools in my garage when I came across a closing cabinet shop and ended up with 3 phase unisaw, shaper, and RAS. All are mid to late 1950s and needed quite a bit of work. While I do have a rpc, I also use a VFD on the shaper table for speed adjustment. On the RAS you probably wouldn't want to slow it down, but the added benefit of the VFD is they also make single phase power into 3 phase without the loss a static converter has. Just leave it at full speed and there is no need for anything else. They are also extremely efficient. Here is a link to the one I use (2 hp) and many of the folks at owwm.org referred me to.

http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/it.A/id.196/.f good for 2hp
http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/it.A/id.198/.f good for 3hp.

All you have to run is single phase 220V to them and program.

[Glen Butler]

That one Dewalt you reference is huge.

Is that a problem? My CMS sticks out from the wall three feet with my cutting table. Looks like this Dewalt is about 3 foot 6 judging by the door in the background. The bigger issue to me would be having to buy a phase converter

Seems whatever the case that old craftsman for $50 (labels "this one looks like a winner" above) is better than nothing, as long as it runs.

I just want something that will stay on and I can just hack up would to managabel lengths. When making 100 cabinet doors and 60 drawers fronts at a time, the miter saw gets cumbersome.

[Neal Clayton]

i have used newer craftsman/delta 10" saws and to be honest, they barely outperform a good miter saw. i'm trying to replace a 10" delta now, that i've wasted too much on parts for and don't intend to waste a dollar more on.

if you really want a RAS, wait on a good deal on an older 12" or larger one. since there's not much demand for these types of saws anymore very few companies still make them. so short of spending thousands on an OMGA, northfield, or Original Saw Co. model, an old dewalt or rockwell is your best bet. and if you're limited to a 10", i'd stay with 1960s or older dewalts exclusively.

[Dave Cav]

i have used newer craftsman/delta 10" saws and to be honest, they barely outperform a good miter saw. i'm trying to replace a 10" delta now, that i've wasted too much on parts for and don't intend to waste a dollar more on.

if you really want a RAS, wait on a good deal on an older 12" or larger one. since there's not much demand for these types of saws anymore very few companies still make them. so short of spending thousands on an OMGA, northfield, or Original Saw Co. model, an old dewalt or rockwell is your best bet. and if you're limited to a 10", i'd stay with 1960s or older dewalts exclusively.

About eight or nine years ago I bought (new) one of the Delta 10" RAS. While it was an improvement over the '70s vintage Wards Power Kraft, it still wasn't much of a saw. I recently gave it away after I got a 12" Delta.

[Neal Clayton]

based on the other thread i'm gonna go take a look at that guy's old unipoint and if it's in good shape i'll be giving one away myself.

new small RASs just aren't worth the hassle. i got the delta i have for very little, but so far i'm in for a motor (which has also developed arbor wobble like the old one did) and have blown a brand new switch.

that's delta's last chance to squeeze parts money out of me, never again.

[Peter Quinn]

Mike, some brands of RPC are hyped! The Arco models are honestly rated. A 5hp Model A will run any 5hp motor. One must check the specs of any given RPC to see if it will actually start the largest 3ph. motor you contemplate. Some give their output in amps. Others use KVA. Here's a neat page for calculating KVA and HP if it doesn't come easy to you. http://www.tvss.net/train/tools/08.htm

Not sure I'm with you there Chip about the "Hype" or the "Honesty" in the RPC ratings. I'n my recent search I found a few companies claim "Our 5HP phase convertor will start and run ANY 5HP motor" Well sure, because they are using a 10HP slave motor. Its more a matter of semantics than honesty. Some companies list the convertor based on the unit it will run, some based on the size of the slave motor that powers it. Either way a given unit will produce a given KW or amp load at 3PH and start a given load. Some must be derated, others have done the derating for you, but you wind up in the same place.

I called Gentec rotary, and I can tell you when you buy something from them (which I did) they honestly want to set you up with a unit that will power your equipment appropriately. I'm sure ARCO is the same. Gentec convertors are named based on the HP of the slave motor, not the output of the RPC it self. No 5HP 3PH slave is going to power a hard start 5HP 3P load. Looking closely at the ARCO specs I can't seem to find information about the actual generator motors separate from the units, just the claim that "our motors are bigger..." which is vague and probably means "Our 5HP convertors have a 10HP slave so they can run 5HP motors". That's probably a less confusing way to operate but not in my mind inherently more honest.

[Kent A Bathurst]

In for a penny.........

Here's what you need: 16" 5hp 1phSuper Duty from Original Saw:

http://www.originalsaw.com/images/SuperDutySm.jpg (http://www.originalsaw.com/1622superduty.html#)

[Richard Dragin]

In general.....

Craftsman RAS saws suck. Anyone interested in a RAs should be looking for an older Dewalt with the heavy cast arm. You should also join the Yahoo group "Radial Arm Saws" to interact with like minded individuals who have bought and overhauled saws.

I've been offered several Craftsman saws for free and turned them all down. I love my 925 and I use newer CMS's at work all the time. They are not as accurate, versatile or quiet like my Dewalt.

[Sean Nagle]

What is the better choice, a Dewalt MBF or 7790? Both are in working order and prices seems very reasonable for either. The MBF could be used as is with possibly repacking the track bearings but could stand an overall refurbishment. The 7790 is the gray version and looks to be in very good condition.

[Richard Dragin]

MBF with the rounded arm is the better choice. Be careful about the bearings in the arm though.... it may actually be the ways which are worn and are not cost effective to repair. The way to tell is to clean and adjust the bearings and see if you have the same resistance the entire length of the arm. If it's sloppy in the middle you have worn ways.

Since most saws were for home use worn out arms are rare and usually a lot of DW40 will get it smoothed out.

[Sean Nagle]

Richard, thanks for the tip to assess the condition of the ways. Makes sense.

[Glen Butler]

In for a penny.........

Here's what you need: 16" 5hp 1phSuper Duty from Original Saw:

http://www.originalsaw.com/images/SuperDutySm.jpg (http://www.originalsaw.com/1622superduty.html#)

Darn, if I only had 8 grand sitting around.

[Rick Potter]

I have had an MBF and a 7790. I kept the 7790.

Rick Potter

[Joshua Layne]

so bummed - I was the second caller (and no consolation prize) on a FREE CL Dewalt MBF in really good shape - just needed a new power cord.

because all the talk here the last couple days has me thinking I need one now too :P

[Sean Nagle]

I have had an MBF and a 7790. I kept the 7790.

Rick Potter

Rick, what made you keep the 7790 over the MBF? Do you mind sharing details?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Darn, if I only had 8 grand sitting around.

Hey - take the long view - there will be interesting battles at the reading of wills for many generations.

[Rick Potter]

Sean,

It has been a long time now, but as I remember there were several reasons.

1. The 7790 had more power.

2. The 7790 had the safety guards for the blade (the horseshoes).

3. Even after rebuilding the MBF, I could not see where there was any advantage over the 7790.

I had looked for an MBF, and found one in decent shape for $200. It ran good, but seemed to lack power. It had a switch for 120/240V, but it ran the same on either position. I planned to go through it, because everyone said it was the one to have, but my 7790 is so good, I decided it was a waste of time. This is my opinion, for my use. Your mileage may vary.

Lemme explain why my 7790 was so good. A friend bought it brand new, and used it for well less than a year, then parked it in a corner of the garage. One day we were visiting and I saw it. When I asked him why he didn't use it, he said he tried it for a while and it wouldn't hold a setting, he hated it, and do I want to buy it?

Well, I paid him $300 for it maybe 15 years ago or more, It is a mid 70's model, that was almost unused. When I got it home, I started to set it up, and found that ALL the settings were off, and they were tightened only finger tight. I went through and set everything right, and have had ZERO proplems with it. It even went through a move without major readjusting, only took a couple minutes to check it out again.

I use it almost as much as the TS, only do crosscuts on it, build cabinets with it, and it has the best dust collection of any major tool I have. I made a new table for it with a sacrificial insert, and I have not changed the insert in at least 6 years. Doesn't need it.

By the way, I also found a 10" pivot head Delta RAS. I did fix this one up, and it worked great. I still kept the 7790 over it.

Now, carefull reading of the OWWM site, shows that the 7700 series DeWalts in later years trimmed down the amount of cast iron in the arm. You can tell these because the arm is flatter.

Rick Potter

PS: This is the short version of my RAS oddysey. I went through half a dozen before falling in love with the 7790.

[Richard Dragin]

Rick,
Glad you're happy with the 7790, I love my 925 for many of the same reasons PLUS it has the cool red knobs. I'd like to see what you've done about the dust collection you mentioned because I am about to do a box behind the saw for that purpose.