Neander chair seat question - what joinery?

[Brian Kent]

I am planning a Maloof inspired chair with the Charles Brock plans. Much of it uses power tools (as did Sam) and much is by hand.

My question is about the coopered seat. There are 5 boards that make the seat. Each is 8/4 22" long and 4-1/2" across. They are glued side to side, then carved deeply so that for the most part there is about 1" deep by 22" long of long-gran glue joint.

Charles Brock used a Festool Domino.
I don't have one and I don't have $750 floating around.
Shawn Patel (Creeker) made his with Dowelmax.
I don't have one and I don't have $400 floating around.

The dominos or dowels help with alignment while clamping a coopered seat, and they are supposed to add strength. I agree with the alignment purpose and I don't think they will hurt the strength.

So… I am planning to do a mortise and floating tenon - about 3 tenons, 1" across and 1" into each board. I've used my Ray Isles chisels before with success.

Finally the question: What would you use? Is there a better choice for aligning and supporting the chair seat boards? (They need to support my 200 lb. body for a couple of hours a day for 30 years, then do the same for my offspring).

Brian

[Tom Winship]

Brian, I have built 3 chairs after Robert Hensarling's scheme (2 cherry and 1 mesquite). Used large biscuits and Titebond. No problems so far with my 250 lbs. (1 year).

[David Gendron]

I guess you could simply use hard wood dowels like oak would be my choice! Make them 3/8 x 2" and put 3 or 4 in each joint and I think you will be ok and even could put a few more pound on and still be ok( you never know, if that chaire is too comfy you might pass more time sitting in it...)

[Prashun Patel]

Brian-
Do you have a biscuit joiner? I think that's the easiest and sufficient.

Remember that if you cut yr own tenons, you have to mill the mortise on the beveled boards perpendicular to the bevel. On tools like the dowelmax and mortisepal, that can be an issue... A biscuit joiner makes that easy.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by a "coopered seat". The Maloof rockers had a flat seat and the sitting part is then sculpted into the flat seat. I've done several seats like that and I just glue the boards together, the excavate the seat. I've never had an inkling of a problem - the glue is actually stronger than the wood.

One problem with any kind of "thing" stuck between the boards is that if you're not careful, you can cut into one of the "things" when you're excavating, and that will ruin the seat.

And to excavate, I use a large chisel, maybe a 5/30, to rough out the shape, then use a chairmaker's plane to take out the chisel marks, then sand afterwards.

BTW, Sam used to cut the rough shape before he glued up the boards, but I never had the nerve to do that. And Sam just glued the boards together, to the best of my knowledge. I certainly never saw anything (like dowels) and he never mentioned using anything in the glue up.

Brian, you live somewhat close to me. If you want to see what I do, bring your seat by and I'll show you how I sculpt a seat. I'm certainly not an expert but I've made a number of sculpted seats.

Mike

[Brian Kent]

Shawn, I do not have a biscuit joiner and would rather not invest another $200-ish.

Dowels are OK, but my last try at making a guide was not spectacular, to say the least. I have a much better drill press now so that should go better.

Mike, I would like to see your chairs. I have wanted to meet you through the carving classes but this would be great.

I went to "A Day in the Shop of Sam Maloof" last spring. He was already pretty ill but one of "The Boys" led a great seminar. Here are some pictures of how they put the boards together with a 3° angle to give greater depth. Boards number 1 and 5 and parallel to number 3.

Brian

[David Gendron]

Brian, I think it safe to go the glue only route! Like Mike said, the glue is stonger than the wood! Some time simple is the way to go at things!

[Brian Kent]

Thanks guys.

I think I will use Sam's method and just go with glue.

This was a neander question but the main thread about this project is Shawn Patel's thread in General Woodworking called "Maloof Inspired Rocker Plans".

Brian

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks for the info on how Sam made his seats. I visited his place several times and he talked with us about his chairs but I didn't remember that the seat was coopered that way. Either he didn't mention it or I didn't hear it. Thanks for posting those pictures - I'll use that next time I make a chair.

Mike

[Oh, let me make it clear that the rockers I've made have not been "Maloof" style rockers - but they do have sculpted seats.]

[Brian Kent]

Mike,

Is a chairmakers plane the same as a compass plane?

Brian

[Jon van der Linden]

Brian, you might want to check out the Maloof video on the "woodworking channel." It's from a presentation done over a two day period a few years ago.

http://www.woodworkingchannel.com/dolphin/vidego_video_library.php

Sam does talk about how he uses a drill press for to dowel the seat, but it will take some hunting to find that exact section.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike,

Is a chairmakers plane the same as a compass plane?

Brian
Sorry for not replying earlier, Brian, but I didn't see your question.

I suppose different people call things different names. To me, a compass plane only curves in one direction (like the Stanley 113 plane), while a chairmaker's plane curves in two directions. Some people call a plane that only curves in one direction a "circular plane" but I call them a "compass plane". Let's see what other people say.

The pictures show a small chairmaker's plane I have. It's about 6" from tip to tail. It's made by St. James Bay Tool Company. While it works, it has something I don't like. I wish Lie Nielsen would make a chairmaker's plane. I contacted them about it but the response wasn't strong. I never tried Lee Valley - I guess I should.

Mike

[Brian Kent]

Got it, Mike. Not a bad price either.

It might be fun to make one out of a wooden plane.

Frankly, the idea of using scorps and planes is much more attractive than a Kutzall on an angle grinder.

Jon, that is a wonderful video series. I look forward to soaking it all in, as well as finding the part about the drill press on seats.

Brian

[Mike Henderson]

I did make a wooden chairmaker's plane, larger than the one from St James Bay. See attached pixs. It works okay but it's probably too large so I could only use it for roughing. Now, I tend to use a carving gouge for the roughing, then use the brass plane to smooth prior to sanding.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

The pictures show a small chairmaker's plane I have. It's about 6" from tip to tail. It's made by St. James Bay Tool Company. While it works, it has something I don't like. I wish Lie Nielsen would make a chairmaker's plane. I contacted them about it but the response wasn't strong. I never tried Lee Valley - I guess I should.

Mike

Mike,

I think Lie Nielsen does make what you have, it is just called a Convex Sole Block Plane. The Stanley #100-1/2 was billed as a model makers plane.

What is that the St. JBTCo model has that you don't like?


From the LN web site:

Convex Sole Block Plane

This curved sole low angle block plane is perfect for all sorts of hollowing jobs, chair seats, moldings, model making, etc. The radius across the width of the sole is 3 inches (7.62cm), from end to end the radius is 27 inches (68.58cm). The sole is 3 1/2 inches (8.89cm) long and the overall length with the squirrel tail handle is 5 inches (12.7cm). The 1/8 inch (3.17mm) thick A-2 steel blade is 7/8 inches (2.22cm) wide. Ductile Iron body, bronze cap. Weight 8 oz.


From what is on the various sites, the St.JBCo. plane is patterned on the Stanley and the LN plane has a different geometry.

I had a plane kind of like a coffin smoother that had a sole that was convex. It was cracked and in bad shape. Since it was a family heirloom, my brother with some of the other heirlooms from the carpenter ancestors of or family is holding on to them.

jim

[lowell holmes]

Japan Woodworker have wooden convex bottom planes at a very reasonable price. I have the spoon bottom plane. It works great.
Dunbar's travisher works quite well also.
I have a custom travisher a friend made for me that is a more shallow curve than Dunbar's that is my goto tool for the fine smoothing on a contoured seat.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hey Mike, I'll be happy to disagree with you on the naming.:D In the east a compass plane is curved in both directions and is used for carving out chair seats. Crown Plane who makes them refers to them as a compass plane as does Mike Dunbar for his Windsor chair classes. A plane like the Stanley 113 or the 20 I've always refered to as a circular plane. I'll bet that we both can find literature that supports our views. To me it's just another case of the confusing names often given to tools.

[Sean Hughto]

Forgive me if I misunderstand the question, but I don't think you need anything. If the boards are well jointed and you use cauls to keep things in line (though if you have a plane, any minor deviations can be planed out after the glue-up), those edge joints are going to be as strong as the wood. The dowels and biquits and what not are just belts and suspenders. If you really want something else, you could add splines or tongue and groove the edges, but it's really unnecessary.

[Brian Kent]

I guess I should check - is there any problem in using a scorp or travisher or chair plane on Padauk with a janka hardness of 1725?

I have no problems with flat planes and spokeshaves on Padauk. No tear-out issues.

[Sean Hughto]

I've used Padauk on a few projects, and never thought of it as too hard to work with hand tools, but then again, I've never found any wood that I thought was too hard to work with hand tools. The only thing hardness effects is relative speed and size of the bites you can take. I've carved knobs with a knife out of lignum vitae, ebony, blood wood, and pink ivory, for example. It just takes a bit more patience.

[Jeff Wittrock]

You might consider just using a spline to help with alignment and maybe add a little strength? You could route the slot with a plane, router, tablesaw, etc. Not sure if you want the spline to show, or not, so you could just stop short of the front and back if not. Actually, I think a contrasting spline visible on the front would look pretty cool :).

I am currently working on a chair with a coopered and sculpted seat. I am very low budget at the moment, so the seat is made of a bunch of 3/4" thick x 1-3/4" wide strips on edge to give what looks like a quartersawn top surface and ~1-1/4" finished thickness (plus ~1" of coopering). In my case I just glued them up with a makeshift jig to hold them to the curve I wanted and did not use splines or dowels (with the 3/4" width it would have taken a big bag of dowels :().

Hope to see progress on your chair. Chairs are an awful lot of fun to make and I love to see pictures of others.

-Jeff

[Mike Henderson]

Mike,

I think Lie Nielsen does make what you have, it is just called a Convex Sole Block Plane. The Stanley #100-1/2 was billed as a model makers plane.

What is that the St. JBTCo model has that you don't like?

jim
Jim - that LN covex sole plane is too small - it's smaller than the SJB plane.

The thing I don't like about the SJB plane is the way the lever cap fits to the iron. There's a small "cup" that is not captured in any way but is necessary for the plane to work. If you don't have that cup, the screw on the lever cap is too short to tighten the cap to the iron. In other words, if you lose the cup, you can't use the plane. See the pictures.

One day, when I'm taking the blade out to sharpen it, I'm going to drop that cup in some sawdust pile and never find it again.

I just consider it very poor design. A simple thing would have been to make the screw longer and do away with that cup.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I guess I should check - is there any problem in using a scorp or travisher or chair plane on Padauk with a janka hardness of 1725?

I have no problems with flat planes and spokeshaves on Padauk. No tear-out issues.
Some of the more experienced people could give better advice, but scorps and travishers were used on fairly soft wood, as far as I know. I don't know how they'd do on hard wood.

And maybe it's just me, but I find them hard to sharpen.

Everybody has their own preferences, but that's why I wound up with a large gouge (maybe a 5/30) and a chairmaker's plane.

Mike

[Richard Magbanua]

If that's what a coopered seat looks like then I've gotten pretty good at making coopered panels! I would just glue it up with the intentions of making it flat... it would then turn out coopered, no problem! :D

[lowell holmes]

Travishers work fine on white oak, cherry, walnut, and maple. All a travisher is is a curved spoke shave. You work cross grain or diagonally with them.
It takes a sharp tool and a fine shaving. The Japanese spoon bottom plane set for a fine shaving does real well across the grain as well.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim - that LN covex sole plane is too small - it's smaller than the SJB plane.

The thing I don't like about the SJB plane is the way the lever cap fits to the iron. There's a small "cup" that is not captured in any way but is necessary for the plane to work. If you don't have that cup, the screw on the lever cap is too short to tighten the cap to the iron. In other words, if you lose the cup, you can't use the plane. See the pictures.

One day, when I'm taking the blade out to sharpen it, I'm going to drop that cup in some sawdust pile and never find it again.

I just consider it very poor design. A simple thing would have been to make the screw longer and do away with that cup.

Mike

Mike,

Thanks for the clarification. That cup looks like an after thought when someone in purchasing bought a ton of the wrong screws.

Rube Goldberg would have loved it.

jim

[Brian Kent]

My thinking is that if I return the angle grinder (LOUD) and don't buy the Kutzall donut grinder, then I would have about $150 to work with for a scorp, chair plane or whatever. One Barr scorp would pretty much take the money and I would risk making a chair plane.

Other options -
E-bay (not in the mood for that much hit and miss)
Buy used from a Creeker,
A perfect stranger walks up to me on the street with a gift-box of scorps and travishers,
Buy other brands like two-cherries…

Brian

[Sean Hughto]

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-ISCORP&Category_Code=TPSP


http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/compassplane.aspx

[Mike Henderson]

My thinking is that if I return the angle grinder (LOUD) and don't buy the Kutzall donut grinder, then I would have about $150 to work with for a scorp, chair plane or whatever. One Barr scorp would pretty much take the money and I would risk making a chair plane.

Other options -
E-bay (not in the mood for that much hit and miss)
Buy used from a Creeker,
A perfect stranger walks up to me on the street with a gift-box of scorps and travishers,
Buy other brands like two-cherries…

Brian
You can borrow that charimaker's plane of mine. I'll send it to you if you're not coming this way. If you like it you can buy your own.

Mike

[Brian Kent]

Fantastic Mike.

I would be happy to come out there when the time comes.

Brian

[Prashun Patel]

Brian-
May I ask why yr shy about the Kutzall? If it's bkz you PREFER to go Neander for philosophical reasons, then by all means, go for it. But if yr decision is at all based on a fear of using the grinder or reluctance to buy that specialty wheel, let me offer this:

The kutzall is extremely easy to control.
The price of the roughing hand tools will be comparable to the $140 for power tools. Besides, I have a cheap $30 HF grinder that worked just fine. No need to drive a Makita truck through this.
You will need a compass plane or cabinet scrapers or a ROS regardless of yr choice of roughing tools.

IMHO, the smoothing and the roughing are two different tasks entirely.

[Brian Kent]

Since I am sitting in my chair not doing woodworking, waiting for the router bits that I need before glue-up, which comes before seat shaping…

I am just trying to figure out for the same cost which kind of woodworking I want to do. Since I thoroughly enjoy hand tools and eschew* noise and dust, I am just thinking through what skill I would most like to learn. I know it would be equally easy to just buy the Kutzall and use it with the grinder.

Bottom line, I like wood shavings better than sawdust in my coffee.

Brian

*(I have been waiting 30 years to find a good time to use the word "eschew".)

[David Keller NC]

Brian - I have the two cherries scorp. Aside from needing a fair amount of work when I first got it (the bevel is ground too steeply and is not sharp), the tool is correctly shaped - that is, it's got a tight curve on the sides and a relatively flat bottom. Circular scorps aren't too good for this purpose - the smaller radius leaves a lot of clean-up with planes, shaves, and travishers.

From the standpoint of Maloof's seats, I will simply offer that not all of his seats were made with smallish, coopered boards. An awful lot of the ones pictured in his book certainly appear to be a solid plank.

This, by the way, is how I would go if I were doing one of these, and I would do it out of walnut (his material of choice other than the brazilian rosewood examples he made for his family). You can get walnut in big sizes easily, and it works very well with hand tools.