??? about making mini hollowing tools.???

[Dan Forman]

I want to hollow out some of those Christmas ornaments with the icicle finials. I got a few 1/4" hex keys, long leg 5" and short leg 1". I have the handle made for the first one, with a hole about 2 1/4" drilled to accept the key.

Questions are:
Total length of bit projecting forward from handle
Angle to bend key?
Length of bent part of key?
What shape to grind the business end?
Anything else I might need to know?

Pictures would be very helpful.

Thanks as always,

Dan

[Nathan Hawkes]

Dan, I've used hex keys a couple times for undercutting rims and on a few hollow forms, as I don't have an offset side cut scraper for that sort of work. I may not be tremendously helpful (don't have any pics handy), but I have a couple things I'd tell you that I wish I had known....



I used a large pair of vise-grip pliers to hold the key (This is NOT recommended--they will move on you and catch!!, as the contact surface between pliers jaws and hex key is very small--usually two points of contact one on top, one on bottom). In other words, spend the time to make a simple handle, and glue it in! you don't even need to sand or finish the handle if you don't want to make the time. Just make sure its in there securely.

Also....for whatever reason, be it the small size, the content of the metal, whatever; I've found hex keys to be quite "grabby" while grinding, both with white al-ox wheels and the gray carborundum ones. I ground off the top hexagonal face flat to approximately the middle, in order to even up the future cutting edge. Keep a good hold on the key, as it might get thrown across the shop by the grinder....... I find them pretty easy to sharpen with either a diamond hone or a slipstone, just filing on the bevel. Make sure when you're grinding that you quench it often, and don't push it into the grinder--if it gets too hot it'll lose its temper & not hold an edge.

My $0.02

FWIW, I think these type of homemade tools are truly invaluable for small and detailed work. There aren't a lot of specialized tools like these manufactured, and they are so easy to make anyway.

[Jeff Nicol]

Dan, If you look for my post on turning deer antler it shows some pictures of the tools I make and use. Here is a link to my gallery on my website that has the same pics.

http://woodennicol.com/galleries.html#bn-photocenter-1-1-73155411/56378/1/128127/

You can use just about anything to make a tool out of as the metal is harder than the wood. Concrete nails, drill rod, dental tools, old screwdrivers and anything you can form or bend to reach where you want to reach will work. Just experiment with what you have on hand.

Jeff

[Dennis Ford]

Try making it like the attached sketch if you have a torch to heat the steel. Put about 1-1/2" of the steel into the handle.

[Ryan Baker]

If you torch bend it, you are going to lose the temper (unless you are planning to retemper it). Swan necks are nice, but you don't really need it usually. The best shape depends a lot on what you are making (size, shape, amount of undercut, etc.). For my tools made from allen wrenches, I leave the L bend the way it is, but cut down the short arm to half or less of its length. If you leave that much overhang, you will have a very hard time counteracting the rotational forces. Grind the top almost-half of the key flat (as mentioned) at the tip. Then I grind it to a round tip at about 80 degrees. You need a couple inches into the handle, but enough still sticking out to be useable. The long wrenches are useful for this. Combine a tool like this with a straight tool and you can do a lot of small shapes. I like to make my mini straight tools from screwdrivers. Find one you like with a comfortable handle, appropriate size and length shaft (I like to start with Phillips), cut off just the tip and regrind it as above. The vanadium steel holds an edge quite a while.

Miniatures seem to require a lot of tools (to be small enough to fit without being too small so as to chatter ... different shapes to fit different designs). You will get good at making them out of anything and everything you have laying around. I often find myself trolling the hardware stores in search of a decent piece of steel in a commonly available item that can be reborn into a tool.

[Dan Forman]

I tried to bend one of the 1/4" Allen wrenches, and couldn't budge it. Think I'll try Ryan's approach. On the other hand, I have some 1/4" drill rod that I could bend, am going to try to harden and temper with he butane torch. I did complete a 1/4" round skew from a HSS steel tool blank, and that works great. Pictures to come when I have the others finished. Thanks to everyone for their input.

Dan

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Dan don't be too concerned about loosing the temper out of a alan wrench, it will still be pretty hard, you can also dip just the tip into oil or even water.
The thing to remember here is that you remove so little wood that a common nail would do (just have to sharpen it more often:))
I've used all kinds of steel and yes some of it does loose it edge quite fast, my best small tools are made from screwdriver tips, the long ones are 6" and I've ben getting them in a 10 pac for $10.--, those tips are very good steel, long concrete nails work fine also.
I did take a couple of pictures a few years ago when asked about the small tools, the pic's show the pieces I use, (nails and copper pipe ferrules, and the screw driver bits, also other pieces of steel I got from equipment and old sewing and typewriting and machines and printers etc. :) :)

[John Keeton]

Leo, what you need are just a couple more tools!!:D I think you proved that nearly anything will work!

This doesn't have anything to do with the hollowing tools, but I had purchased the mini tool set from PSI and used the skew and gouge on some Christmas ornaments - worked well.

Looks like a trip to the pawn shop would produce a bunch of old screwdrivers for near nothing, and give one a lot of opportunities.

[Dan Forman]

Leo---That's quite a collection you have there. The one with the chuck on it is my favorite.

I cut half the tip off of the allen wrench, and that's now in it's handle, and I just finished a handle for a mini round nose scraper that I'll make out of another 1/4" HSS steel blank. I got a chance to use the mini skew again, and it gives great control in tight spaces. I'll have pics up tomorrow afternoon. After all of these tools, it will be good to get back into ornaments.

Dan

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Leo, what you need are just a couple more tools!!:D I think you proved that nearly anything will work!

This doesn't have anything to do with the hollowing tools, but I had purchased the mini tool set from PSI and used the skew and gouge on some Christmas ornaments - worked well.

Looks like a trip to the pawn shop would produce a bunch of old screwdrivers for near nothing, and give one a lot of opportunities.

John the nice thing with making your own tools is, if it doesn't work as you hoped for, you can make just another one, and no high priced tools to order and wait for, or trips to the store, rather than enjoying making things, either metal or wood :).
Yes surplus or pawn shops, Sally Ann and the like can be good places to acquire some low cost materials ;) :)

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Leo---That's quite a collection you have there. The one with the chuck on it is my favorite.

I cut half the tip off of the allen wrench, and that's now in it's handle, and I just finished a handle for a mini round nose scraper that I'll make out of another 1/4" HSS steel blank. I got a chance to use the mini skew again, and it gives great control in tight spaces. I'll have pics up tomorrow afternoon. After all of these tools, it will be good to get back into ornaments.

Dan

Dan the handle with the chuck idea was a dud, the idea was to be able exchange the tool-bits (the ones in front of the handle) and also the chuck, the exchanging worked fine, but the tool-bits didn't feel solid and were indeed able to move, so the tool-bits all got their own handles and the chuck is seldom used in there, but still can be :) ;)

[Dan Forman]

I wondered about that, but it's still a cool idea. I imagine the balance might make it feel a bit ungainly too.

Dan

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I wondered about that, but it's still a cool idea. I imagine the balance might make it feel a bit ungainly too.

Dan

I don't know about the balance part Dan, it is after-all still only a relatively small handle, I do like a handle like that for hollowing, as you can lay your hand overtop and the handle under your lower arm, I feel that I have better control with a slightly longer handle, it was the metal driver insert that had just too much play to make it feel right to me, works fine for holding the chuck though :D

[Dan Forman]

Leo--- I was thinking maybe the metal chuck would unbalance it in the front end, thinking of the heft of my Jacobs chuck, but I guess that's a hand drill chuck, now that I look more carefully at it. Still a fine example of thinking outside the box.

Dan

[Dan Forman]

Well, here's what I ended up with.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l279/T-Caster/P1020393.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l279/T-Caster/P1020395.jpg

Handles are way shorter than I usually do, look a little clubby, but there is a lot of meat there to hang on to. Woods are sycamore, elm, and ash respectively. The tip of the round nose is shaped like a bowl gouge, but flat on top. I have a ways to go in developing technique for the allen wrench tool, it gets pretty hard to control when extended very far into the ball. I may have to trim the head down a little so that it takes smaller bites. May do some experimenting with the shape of the longer scraper too. Hope to spend some more time with them tomorrow.

Dan

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Dan nice work, almost too pretty ;-))
For the hook tool, I would make another one for farther in, with a swan-neck shape, this one is nice for undercutting the collar and close-by hollowing, with a swan-neck the rotational forces are non-existing if the cutting tip is in-line with the tool shaft, and a little longer handle on it wouldn't hurt for that one either :-)

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Oh that is a very small 1/4" chuck for a 9.6v battery powered Makita screw gun, a very handy chuck to have

[John Keeton]

Dan, you did a great job on those tools!! Where did you get the HSS 1/4" stock?

[Greg Ketell]

The problem I had was that the tool rest on my Jet mini-lathe is so soft that the allen wrench would dig into the tool rest whenever I had a snag. And due to my neophyte turning abilities I would snag a lot while hollowing the globe. Now I use round "tool stock" only.

I hope that the PM tool rest is a little harder so it won't be so susceptible to dings.


Oh, I saw a post recently where the person used a worn out jointer/plainer knife as a blank for a round-nosed scraper. I just happen to have three blades waiting to be changed so I have a plan.... Thought that might be an idea for you guys too.

GK

[Nathan Hawkes]

Dan, you did a great job on those tools!! Where did you get the HSS 1/4" stock?


You can find it at most machinists' sites; www.use-enco.com (http://www.use-enco.com) www.mcmastercarr.com (http://www.mcmastercarr.com) and www.mscdirect.com (http://www.mscdirect.com) . Its sold as drill stock, or drill blanks. Also, tool steel is available and a little cheaper than hss, and not a huge amount different in hardness, is availble from the same suppliers. I don't honestly know a lot about tempering them though. They're sold as oil and water hardening--depending on which one you should quench the hot tools in during the tempering process.

[Dan Forman]

John---The blanks I used are called "HSS round tool bit" Enco # 383-7015
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INLMKD?SIITEM001=383-7015&SIQTY001=&SIFEET001=&SIPQTY001=&x=12&y=6&SICOUNT=1&SIPGM=INSRHM

These are already hardened, so nothing more to do. Can't bend them though. They have other sizes, but the 1/4" is the only one in 8" length. Might as well buy a bunch, because the shipping will get you otherwise.

Greg---I've got tool rests with hardened steel rods affixed to the top to prevent such things. Robust makes very nice rests in various lengths and two different profiles, available through CSUSA and others.

Leo---I'll make another one with the bent shaft - maybe I can bend a 3/16".

Dan

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Yes I've made those also, it is hard to drill through the planer blades though, even with carbide bits.

[Ryan Baker]

Dan,
Nice work. Those tools look really good (a lot like mine). A longer handle will help somewhat with the allen tool getting grabby when reaching in a bit -- but that is the nature of a bent tool like that. You have to take it slow. (The longer handle gives more leverage when the tool is hanging out -- that's why it helps.)

Building a tool for deeper cuts is a good idea. I agree with Leo that a deeper tool should be a swan neck design, or the forces will be very hard to control. You can bend up your own swan tool, but I would recommend that you use something like O1 drill rod and then temper it. Cheap steel of 1/4" or so diameter is really easy to bend, and can bend in use. It also won't hold an edge for long. Drill rod is easy to harden/temper. And once you get used to that, you will be making all sorts of tools.