Slot Mortiser

[Paul Canaris]

Well, I have been looking at slot mortiser. Laguna, Felder etc. I got a MUCH better than expected end of year bonus (no I'm not Banker :).) I assume no one would think I could go wrong in terms of accuracy and durability if I were to purchase one of these? It is a Griggio TRCN with tilting table.

[David DeCristoforo]

If you are looking for someone to tell you not to buy it, I'm afraid I can't help....

[Steve Rowe]

Looks like a nice unit. The only thing that would concern me about the Griggio is the availability of parts in the US. Do they have a distributor in the US?

I have the Laguna LMB200. It is a good machine made in Bulgaria but its price is about the same as a Felder. With close to the same price, I would opt for the Felder. That just wasn't the case at the time I bought the machine.

Congrats,
Steve

[Wes Grass]

Just a random comment, since I've never used one of these things. Just now thought of it looking at the picture. And I don't know if it's good or bad, considering I've long thought it'd be wonderful to have one of these.

They just seem backwards to me. You either have to walk around the thing to load a piece, and then back to operate the controls and change adjustments, or reach over it to operate the handle ... with your *left* hand.

That's just not natural to me. The add on mortising tables they have for the jointer/planers has the workpiece and controls where they should be. Like almost every other machine tool; stand in front of it, load a piece, and reach up with your right hand to pull the lever. All there right up front, adjustments and all.

I suppose if you're putting a door on the thing this is the only way you'll be able to operate it. But it sure looks like a bad compromise you've got to make when doing small stuff.

Comments from those who actually use them appreciated.

[Paul Canaris]

Appreciate the comments Steve.

Yes there is a US distributor, and I have dealt with Griggio in the past directly, helpful as I recall (I own a Griggio planer).

My reluctance with the Laguna to date is based on two things:
1. I own a Knapp slider (GREAT machine); but with Knapp no longer in business I am concerned that if I ever need a part I would be screwed. At the time I bought the Knapp they seemed like a real solid company.

2. Based on concern number one, I figure of the four companies I have looked at, Griggio, Felder, Laguna or Stomana (the Bulgarian Firm that makes the LBM 200) that Griggio is the least likely to go under at some point.

Laguna claims that the LBM 200 is likely to have less deflection of the work piece (as regards longer pieces) as the table trunion (tilting function) on the Griggio TRCN is borrowed from their line of band saws as opposed to the fixed Stoma table. They just may be correct. Also, I am largely considering Griggio due to their reputation which is very very good.
The Felder unit seems nice, but there were some negatives on the FOG site (these issues may have been resolved through design changes??) and by the time you add on what you need they get into the range of the Griggio and I'm not sure there as solid a machine.
Steve, I would like to know more about the LMB 200 as I have not ruled it out by any means".
So essentially the issue is "once bit, twice shy:
I am hoping someone on the site either owns the Griggio or knows someone who does or can ease my concerns about the Stoma.

[Paul Canaris]

I owned a combo at one time that used an add on mortise table and found it fairly easy to use; so that is my only experience as well. So I can't say if the operator orientation of the Griggio would be awkward or not.

[Steve Rowe]

Appreciate the comments Steve.

Yes there is a US distributor, and I have dealt with Griggio in the past directly, helpful as I recall (I own a Griggio planer).

My reluctance with the Laguna to date is based on two things:
1. I own a Knapp slider (GREAT machine); but with Knapp no longer in business I am concerned that if I ever need a part I would be screwed. At the time I bought the Knapp they seemed like a real solid company.

2. Based on concern number one, I figure of the four companies I have looked at, Griggio, Felder, Laguna or Stomana (the Bulgarian Firm that makes the LBM 200) that Griggio is the least likely to go under at some point.

Laguna claims that the LBM 200 is likely to have less deflection of the work piece (as regards longer pieces) as the table trunion (tilting function) on the Griggio TRCN is borrowed from their line of band saws as opposed to the fixed Stoma table. They just may be correct. Also, I am largely considering Griggio due to their reputation which is very very good.
The Felder unit seems nice, but there were some negatives on the FOG site (these issues may have been resolved through design changes??) and by the time you add on what you need they get into the range of the Griggio and I'm not sure there as solid a machine.
Steve, I would like to know more about the LMB 200 as I have not ruled it out by any means".
So essentially the issue is "once bit, twice shy:
I am hoping someone on the site either owns the Griggio or knows someone who does or can ease my concerns about the Stoma.
Paul,
As far as the LMB200 goes, I offer the following observations based on over 3 years experience with the machine:

The table is indeed fixed and quite stable. It is ground very smooth which looks pretty but can allow your workpiece to slip if you don't crank down on the clamps enough. I think the grind that you see on the Felder, Martin, Minimax machines much better for this application.
Overall, I would classify the machine as not all that well refined but fully functional.
The machine does come well outfitted with accessories including the mobility kit, 2 clamps, tilt head, and dowelling fixture (with 4 different centers). The mobility kit is IMO useless and somewhat dangerous. I has 2 rods that stick way out front. You pick up on the front of the machine (a backbreaker) and you had better have locked the moving head or it goes flying backward. I removed the mobility kit and installed Zambus casters.
The tilt head doesn't have an index lock at 0 which is a real pain when you want to return to zero. Who wants mortises that are not parallel to the faces. Also, when you tilt the head, your joystick is lifting the weight of the motor uphill and keeping it from falling going downhill. Not real easy to control IMO.
I hated the stop adjustments for the head. It was threaded rod with two locknuts. It is slow to move to the correct position. I modified it by removing the threaded rod and replacing it with 5/8" drill rod and split stop collars as stops.
The movement of the head in the vertical direction works very well.
The sliding motion front to rear and side to side is very smooth.
I have used the Felder mortiser at Kelly Mehler's school. Knowing what I know now, I would opt for the Felder over the Laguna machine. If Griggio is available in the US, it would certainly be in the mix as well. Could you let us know who the distributor is? I don't have an immediate need for another machine but would like to keep them in mind.

Hope this helps and good luck with your decision.
Steve

[Rick Fisher]

Ackhurst Machinery sells Griggio in Canada. I dont know if they are in the USA or not.. They are in Canada..

[Paul Canaris]

Could you let us know who the distributor is? I don't have an immediate need for another machine but would like to keep them in mind.

Hope this helps and good luck with your decision.
Steve[/QUOTE]

Thanks Steve

J & G Machinery

919-776-8341 Ph
919-775-3667 Fx
www.jgmachinery.com (http://www.jgmachinery.com/)
andy.shook@jgmachinery.com (andy.shook@jgmachinery.com)

[Frank Drew]

They just seem backwards to me. You either have to walk around the thing to load a piece, and then back to operate the controls and change adjustments, or reach over it to operate the handle ... with your *left* hand.



Paul,

From everything I've heard, Griggio makes good equipment, but the possibly awkward design that Wes notes is also the first thing that I thought looking at the picture.

I guess you're supposed to operate the Griggio from the table side, reaching back for the joy stick control with your left hand if that wouldn't be too much of a stretch; IMO it would have made more sense, though, to have made the height adjusting wheel accessible from the same side (the table side), although once the height is set that should be it and you shouldn't have to go back around the machine to do anything else.

All that said, I love slot mortisers and consider them a vast improvement on hollow chisel mortisers. I had another Italian machine, the CM-72-TG; they occasionally pop up on used equipment lists, so keep your eye our for one if you pass on the Griggio.

Is there any way you can test drive this machine before ordering?

[Mike Heidrick]

Is there any way you can test drive this machine before ordering?

IWF in 2010 will be the best place to test drive all of these and work a deal.

Does the Felder head tilt?

I like the fixed table design as a large door could be setup with nice additional support tables if needed.

The amount I mortise only made the Platnium Laguna even close to realistic. That being said I am MUCH happerier with that than one that bolted to my jointer. Adding my sub table has made working with smaller pieces much easier when it comes to repeatability on it.

[Paul Canaris]

Is there any way you can test drive this machine before ordering?[/QUOTE]

I would need to find someone who owned one; or if your a really nice guy you could buy one so i could try it out :D :D

[Paul Canaris]

IWF in 2010 will be the best place to test drive all of these and work a deal.

:) I'll have to look on line to see when that comes up.....

Does the Felder head tilt?

:) No, one of the drawbacks of the unit compared to some others...

[Jeff Duncan]

You may want to take a look at the Bini also, very well made machine for I think less than the Griggio. If that's the same machine I was looking at I believe it was a couple thousand more than the Bini, which was about $5k. The Laguna's and Felder's have been discussed on here in the past, let's just say the comments didn't make me want to give them my money.
As for the adjustments, for the most part you really only adjust the height at the start of a project and it stays the same throughout a given job, so that being in the back wouldn't be a real problem.
My local distributor in the US is Atlantic Machinery out of New Jersey. They carry a lot of Euro equipment including the Bini and Griggio lines.
They're great machines and can really pay for themselves depending on what you do. If you can afford the Griggio I'd say go for it. If you were going for the Laguna or Felder based on price, I'd say check out a better quality used machine instead. Again, that's based on what I read here and on other forums in the past, not personal experience.

good luck,
JeffD

[Ben Abate]

Paul,

No, Felder's head does not tilt! The older models did but about 2004 or 05 they discontinued the tilting head for some reason. I did know at one time why they discontinued that aspect of the FD 250. I purchased an 06 model and really like it. Solid as could be but I would have liked the tilt head for doing louvers and such. Anyway, I always heard Griggio was the cats meow but I guess Steve is a better person to judge since he has one. Felder's movement is very smooth, the machine runs fine, I have the 3 hp one. Indexing is fine also. Felder is having their Christmas specials so you may get a deal. I've tried to see if Felder would order a tilt mechanism for me when I order mine but they said they were no longer in stock. I really think the sales person that took over Jesse's territory at that time was too lazy to check. Just my personal opinion. He wasn't too warm and fuzzy delivering someone else's commission.

Hope this helps
Ben




IWF in 2010 will be the best place to test drive all of these and work a deal.

:) I'll have to look on line to see when that comes up.....

Does the Felder head tilt?

:) No, one of the drawbacks of the unit compared to some others...

[Paul Canaris]

My local distributor in the US is Atlantic Machinery out of New Jersey. They carry a lot of Euro equipment including the Bini and Griggio lines.

Jeff I googled them and could not come up with a number, do you have one?

[Scott Stafford]

Just remember... IMHO if you buy a Laguna, you better not need any customer service or support!

Scott in Montana

[Peter Quinn]

This one sort of looks like the Laguna but for a bit less money (uhh, a bit less mark up?) http://www.andreoumachinery.com/slot_mortisers.htm

They are also a Griggio dealer, the shop where I work bought a Griggio slider from them last spring. They are in Jersey.

If the Atlantic Machinery Co in question is the same one I am thinking of they are NOT in New Jersey, they are in fact right down the road from me in Connecticut. They sell Bini and Paoloni brands among others.

http://www.atlanticmach.com/standard/misc.html

Might be worth a look.

I have a Laguna Platinum (the first one based on the Rojek), and it works well enough for the money. Its a bit stiff in terms of the tables mechanism, but accurate enough for precise work. Seems well below the level of machine you are considering. In any event, it shares a similar geometry to the Griggio in terms of control placement. I clamp my material to the table, step to the side with the control bar and mortise away with full view of the bit and work. This is a good thing. I don't like the design of some of the machines that put the controls out front but force you to work blind. For some quick things I prefer to mill my first piece of each series to eye, then set the stops to that.

At work I use a Bridgeport milling machine to mortise stiles for passage doors. I can clamp an 1 3/4" X 5 1/2" X 8'0" stile in the vise to hog 3" deep mortises for the top rail with the full weight of the stile cantilevering off the table, no deflection, dead on accurate. It would be nice to have a slot mortiser with the build quality of a Bridgeport , don't know who makes one. Come to think of it it would be nice to have a Bridgeport in my home shop.:rolleyes:

[Joe Calhoon]

The Griggio TRC is a good mid range slot mortiser if you get all the options. My cousin in Italy has one in his door shop for odd jobs and happy with it. The Panhans 116 would be worth looking at and also the Hofmann LB 760. The Hofmann is probably more money and not sure if any dealers in the US. Slot mortisers are simple machines but dealer support is always nice.

Good, but hard to find used are 1990 era and later German made Kolle and Panhans mortisers.

I’ve owned a few slot mortisers and have some opinions about what makes them accurate and versatile especially if you do this for a living. –

Smooth precise movement of the head with bearings instead of dovetail ways.
Single joystick.
Precise up and down head movement with mechanical digital readout for repeatability.
Pay attention to how the width and depth of mortise adjusts, the lower end machines are frustrating in this area for accuracy and repeatability.
Left and right table stops that can be adjusted for accuracy.
A spaced bar for dowel drilling.
2 speeds or a VFD.

Hope this helps.

Joe Calhoon

[Paul Canaris]

Good practical advise, thanks Joe.

[Jeff Duncan]

My local distributor in the US is Atlantic Machinery out of New Jersey. They carry a lot of Euro equipment including the Bini and Griggio lines.

Jeff I googled them and could not come up with a number, do you have one?

Oops, there's another example of my memory playing tricks on me. Not sure why I thought they were in Jersey, but hey, I was only a couple states away;)
Anyway if you spend some time googling slot mortisers you can find a fair amount of info in addition to what's been covered here already, and I believe you should also be able to find the machines Atlantic carries. That's how I found them last year.
good luck,
JeffD