Pocket Hole Joinery Flush Problem(s)

[Don Brubaker]

Been using pocket hole joinery for awhile and every time I use it I seem to have a problem with the pieces flushing out on the face. Yes, I use the Kreg clamps - both the 90° in the drilled pocket hole and regular for holding it flat to the surface ..... but ....... always seems to be a variable result with more times than not the face being slightly offset on one side of the joint from the other due to the screws at an angle in the pocket. Perhaps I need to REALLY crank down on the clamps?
Any others having similar problems ...... or solutions. I know this is a very popular method, and I do love it, but am frustrated with the seeming lack of repeatable accuracy and flush face joints if I don't pay REAL CLOSE attention to each and every joint (which should be done anyway!).
Feedback, comments, ideas greatly appreciated!

[Mike Heidrick]

Using pocket hole specific screws?

[Bob Carreiro]

Are you clamping the material flush before screwing?
To me, if it's flush at clamp-up, it'll be flush when the clamps are removed.
Post the fix when you get it.
Bob

[Joe Scharle]

The clamps do need to be able to resist any torguing action of the screw. IOW, clamp the #@%$ out of it!

[Kev Godwin]

I had a similar thing happen a few years ago when I didn't clamp tight enough. I was getting a little side drift due to the rings in the wood slightly moving the screw upon entry into the other piece. It only happened to me on wood with distinct growth rings. By clamping tighter, I didn't have it ever happen again.

If you need to Kreg screw 2 pieces that are different thicknesses, you can use a number of playing cards as shims to make the pieces the same thickness for clamping.
Kev

[Jamie Buxton]

Yeah, they do that. My theory is that the two pieces aren't quite tight together when you drive the screw in, so when it tightens up, it drags one piece sideways. One solution is to be very careful you have them clamped together, and make sure you have them clamped at 90 degrees. Another solution is to use something which refuses to let the pieces shift -- a dado or the like. You can even clamp another piece of wood on temporarily.

[glenn bradley]

To Mike's question; most folks reporting this problem are using the wrong screws. The un-threaded part of the shaft on your pocket hole screw should pass through the joint just prior to the head making contact and torque being applied.

134830

If the threads pass through the joint as torque is applied, the joint will skew.

[Mark Rios]

I've used the Kreg Master kit for 4 years or so now, mostly for making face frames for kitchen and bath remodel jobs. I too found this problem early on. After some trial and error I've found a procedure that does in fact eliminate the movement, for me anyway.

After applying the glue I align the joint as I want it and then clamp directly over the joint. I use the Kreg Premium face clamp pictured below.

134845 I align the center of the round faces with the joint and I do use quite a bit of pressure. Not so much that it makes it hard to remove the clamp or for it to dent the wood but pressure just short of that.

Then I use a Bessey K body clamp and clamp from the ends. (In other words, if the Premium clamp is putting pressure on the "Y" axis then the Bessey is clamping on the "X" axis, if that makes sense.)

Yes, it a little PIA, but it does guarantee that my joint is flush.

Also, depending on the width of the material and how many screws I use, I will align the clamp closer to the screw that I'm putting in and then move the clamp over to try to maximize the pressure.


hth

[Karl Brogger]

Kreg jig holes are at a pretty steep angle.

Best thing that I did was actually clamping both piece, with one clamp, down to something flat. I'd throw a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" down and work off of one edge.
I think most of the clamp pressure needs to be placed on the piece that is getting screwed into, not the piece the screw goes through. The piece that is getting screwed wants to lift up. I use a pnuematic clamp and a Castle machine (http://www.castleusa.com/pocket_joinery.html) for putting faceframes together, I'm about positive that the pnuematic clamp isn't putting as much pressure on the joint as the vise-grip style clamps I used to use.

Most of the time you will not get perfectly flush joints, or it really isn't worth the time messing with it to get it perfect when its just a sander away from being flat.

Also, how deep are you setting the stop on the bit, and how long of a screw are you using? You typically don't need more than 11/16" of the screw sticking out of the piece with the pocket cut in it. Unless you're using a softer wood, (alder, poplar, pine, etc.), the fine thread screws seem to work the best.

[Thomas Pender]

+1 - it is always a matter of force, but the K body clamps seem to do it for me. I still get an unsatisfactory result once in a while, but far fewer than I used to.

[David Werkheiser]

You may be drilling too deep, I was complaining to a Kreg rep at a show about the same problem and he said that the depth stop wasn't set right. He said to drill a pocket and saw it length wise, there should be a 1/8" (thickness of a nickle) of undrilled wood left. I made this change and it helped.
DaveW

[Don Brubaker]

Yes, using all Kreg stuff - screws, clamps, etc.

Though clamping does seem to be the key, clamping the *($$%%% out of the pieces sometimes brings another adverse effect of marring, though on the back side usually.

The biggest issue seems to be when the screw goes in the pocket hole, even though securely clamped, the angled driving of the screw inevitably "wants" to "unflush" the two pieces and has a fair amount of force due to the angle.

Granted, 85% or so of the time it works fine. Just seems like I don't trust the joint to come out flush without having to spend an inordinate time worrying and checking it three times.
Probably exaggerating a bit. But it is causing me to wonder if this is "the best" system for high quality cabinets. It is fast (not taking into consideration the "issue") and rarely do I have to check for squareness.

Thanks for the feedback so far.
Appreciate more.

Wondering if there are any professional cabinet makers out there that have some "secrets"?

[Don Brubaker]

Well, unless Kreg is telling me the wrong screws to use, I'm using the ones they recommend, so that shouldn't be the problem. Can't speak to the issue of threaded and unthreaded portion, except again, using all of Kreg's spec's for drilling and screwing.
Just seems to be an inherent "flaw" in this system making it somewhat less than "fool proof" (not sure if I'm the fool though!!!)


To Mike's question; most folks reporting this problem are using the wrong screws. The un-threaded part of the shaft on your pocket hole screw should pass through the joint just prior to the head making contact and torque being applied.

134830

If the threads pass through the joint as torque is applied, the joint will skew.

[frank shic]

the pocket holes that are routed by either a porter cable pocket hole cutter or steve clardy's invention produces far less creepage. make sure the two pieces are the same thickness btw. i use the kreg when dead-on accuracy isn't absolutely necessary.

[Karl Brogger]

Wondering if there are any professional cabinet makers out there that have some "secrets"?

Yeah, don't use a Kreg jig.

Don, I don't know your circumstances, but if you're doing this professionally start saving your pennies for a Castle Machine. They're made somewhere in California, and right now around here they're selling for about $1500 used. Which is a bit more than half of what they are new. Kreg jigs are a bit of cruel joke compared to the better systems, with that said I went three years in my shop using one. It took a long time for me to get to the point that I could justify the Castle machine, but it didn't take long at all to pay for itself. Don't bother with their assembly table, there's much better options out there for less money on the used market. Unique, and Ritter have some excellent tables. I paid $1100 for a used 5'x12' table last year, they're about $7500 new.


I don't agree with setting the depth so there is only and 1/8" of material remaining. Not arguing that is what the Kreg-rep said, but that doesn't leave much for the screw to "clamp" with, especially on end grain. Any screw much longer than an inch will also start giving you splitting issues when close to the end of the piece also.

[Jamie Buxton]

..Yeah, don't use a Kreg jig...

Would you or Frank expound on this a bit? The Kreg jig just bores a hole. As far as I understand, the bigger machines bore a similar hole, but do it faster. What am I missing here? How is the hole different with them?

[Karl Brogger]

Would you or Frank expound on this a bit? The Kreg jig just bores a hole. As far as I understand, the bigger machines bore a similar hole, but do it faster. What am I missing here? How is the hole different with them?

unless you're drilling really deep, which I don't think is a good idea, the pilot hole is not completely drill through. That means that the screw is going to be biting on both pieces, when all it needs to do is pull the two together.

The Ritter boring tub is the only other full sized machine that I've used. It uses a similar action and bit as the Kreg jig, but semi automated. Really painful to use as the clamp comes up from the bottom and you have to adjust a stop for different thickness material. I have not used the smaller Porter Cable model. I'm not sure how the pocket is made with those, but I "think" its a similar action as the Castle, but you have to actuate it manually by hand.

The pocket, and the pilot hole look nothing alike what the Kreg jig produces with a Castle machine. The Castle cuts the slot with a straight router bit, then drills the pilot hole from the opposite edge. Gives you a super low angle. That's the key. And they are unbelievably faster than doing it manually with a drill. You can adjust every facet of it too, from the depth of the pocket, to how far it traveles, and the depth of the pilot hole. Castle's are pretty much the industry standard, at least around here.

[Josiah Bartlett]

I like to use a center punch through the drilled holes into the other piece after clamping to positively locate where the screws start. This seems to help a lot, along with making sure there isn't any leftover blowout between the clamped pieces.

[Roger Jensen]

The one thing that has helped me is to keep the angle of the screw as shallow as possible. Use the longest square driver your have (I am using the 5-6 inch one from the master kit) and keep it and your driver as close to the face frame as possible. It seems to have less tendency to shift the other piece out of alignment.

Roger

[Ken Higginbotham]

Next time I clamp face frames I think I'm going to add tape to the clamp face about half way across on opposing sides to shim the frame into alignment... :confused:

[frank shic]

the big porter cable pocket cutters show up on craigslist every once in a while while the smaller single router pocket cutters show up on ebay quite often. steve clardy is a frequent contributor and makes a pretty good machine that's BYOR (bring your own router). you will have a much easier time flushing the joints up with the standard kreg clamps.

[Chip Lindley]

I hate to say it in this thread, but I've never experienced ANY mis-alignment because I clamp both pieces very securely before screwing together. I've never used a Kreg jig. I suffered along with cheap-o single or double drill guides and a nice 3/8" Kreg pockethole bit for quite a few years.

Then I stepped up to a Porter Cable 552 machine, which routes both the 3/8 slot and drills pilot hole in the end grain piece. Auger-point FF screws drill their own hole into the long-grain piece. Porter Cable pocket holes are a a more gentle angle than Kreg jig produces, and less chance for vertical misalignment.

Now pardon as I digress: The Big Boys use a 4x8 pneumatic clamping table (Castle, Kreg, Ritter, etc.) for FF construction. Considering their hi prices, these are really lo-tek except for the travelling arm and pneumatic clamps. All have a tubular steel frame, and smooth, non-stick melamine table mounted at a steep angle. Odd that none of the industrial tables have any horizontal clamping; only vertical!

Go the big boys one better, and use wooden *cams* with steel center pins, inserted into the peg holes to exert end-to-end pressure on the joint(s). A movable track (stolen from the industrial versions) provide downward pressure over the joints. (Jorgensen veneer press screws?) Bottom and side edges would mount solid wood or metal straight-edges exactly square to each other.

At the home shop level, a 3'x6' table of 1/4" pegboard (2 layers) over a torsion-box frame would suffice. Hinge it to the wall for flat storage! Or, put it on a heavy-duty pivoting frame (like those mobile black boards) and flip to the other side as a panel clamping table!!

It's all in my head (and my doodle notebook)! A trip to the junkyard for some used angle iron and I'll be in business!

[Jason Hallowell]

I've not been impressed with the Kreg jigs I've used so far, but as this is a hobby for me, I can't justify anything more expensive. I've found that I can get good results by using a parrellel clamp on the ends like Mark describes. I also use two face clamps, one on each side.

FWIW, I have a cheap pocket hole jig from HF that I like better than my Kreg. I also find that the face clamps from HF are easier to use than the Kreg ones (and less than half the price too).

[Jim Foster]

I've always used biscuits and biscuit slots coupled with my Kreg jig as a way to get better alignment when attaching a frame to a cabinet side or panel. I have not used it for something that has to be dead on accurate though.


Been using pocket hole joinery for awhile and every time I use it I seem to have a problem with the pieces flushing out on the face. Yes, I use the Kreg clamps - both the 90° in the drilled pocket hole and regular for holding it flat to the surface ..... but ....... always seems to be a variable result with more times than not the face being slightly offset on one side of the joint from the other due to the screws at an angle in the pocket. Perhaps I need to REALLY crank down on the clamps?
Any others having similar problems ...... or solutions. I know this is a very popular method, and I do love it, but am frustrated with the seeming lack of repeatable accuracy and flush face joints if I don't pay REAL CLOSE attention to each and every joint (which should be done anyway!).
Feedback, comments, ideas greatly appreciated!

[David Kreuzberg]

When I make face frames with the Kreg, I start with 7/8" thick stock, join all pieces and then run the entire face frame (26" or narrower) through the double drum sander, down to 3/4" thick. Works slicker 'n snot!

On larger face frames, the offset is never so great that it can't be touched up with the random orbital sander, and I've been using hickory for my kitchen cabinets. Just clamp tightly and run in the screw slowly.

kreuzie

[Don Brubaker]

David,
Interesting take on this. A drum sander is on my "christmas list"!
How are you finding the Hickory to work with? I'm doing my first set "quicky" set of cabinets in oak right now with the Hickory already purchased for the "real" ones in the laundry room. I love the Hickory and the pocket system ... just seems to be "finicky" ..... the Hickory seems to be a bit "nasty" to work with, primarily due to the coarse grain.



When I make face frames with the Kreg, I start with 7/8" thick stock, join all pieces and then run the entire face frame (26" or narrower) through the double drum sander, down to 3/4" thick. Works slicker 'n snot!

On larger face frames, the offset is never so great that it can't be touched up with the random orbital sander, and I've been using hickory for my kitchen cabinets. Just clamp tightly and run in the screw slowly.

kreuzie

[Bob Carreiro]

Hi Don,
Here's another thought: Since the hole in the drilled peice doesn't go completely through, it could be (big question mark here) the "pushed out" wood fibers are "pushing" against the screw tip as it engages the joining peice. To correct this, drill completly through the peice so that when the screw engages the joining peice, the tip will have nothing in its way as it begins to burrow its way in.
Good luck,
Bob

[Don Brubaker]

Bob,
This is a very interesting concept. Still have the angle issue wanting to push it out of flush, but there is definitely more wood it is pushing on that is "aiding and abetting"!

Wondering why Kreg didn't make the drill do this, though perhaps the obvious reason is that the bit is made for multiple application sizes.
I'm going to experiment with this.
Maybe you've come up with a winner!



Hi Don,
Here's another thought: Since the hole in the drilled peice doesn't go completely through, it could be (big question mark here) the "pushed out" wood fibers are "pushing" against the screw tip as it engages the joining peice. To correct this, drill completly through the peice so that when the screw engages the joining peice, the tip will have nothing in its way as it begins to burrow its way in.
Good luck,
Bob

[Joe Chritz]

My fix for this problem was to use a clamp to clamp the pieces flush (usually to the assembly table) and an additional clamp to clamp the pieces together. Picture on Bessey clamp standing upright clamping the pieces down to the table and another flat to clamp them left to right.

I was getting some shift because the piece would push away just a fuzz before the screw started.

Joe

[Mike Heidrick]

So I have a ton of the Kreg stuff and have been VERY happy with it. I use a Kreg Foreman mostly and I adjust the bit to just come through the wood and clear that hole. I do the same with my K3. I use the Kreg Clamp table as well and I get perfect flush 90 degree joints. There is really nothing to that clamp table that clamping the pieces together and on the same plane cannot get you.

Try drilling through with the bit just clearing the hole.

[David Kreuzberg]

David,
Interesting take on this. A drum sander is on my "christmas list"!
How are you finding the Hickory to work with? I'm doing my first set "quicky" set of cabinets in oak right now with the Hickory already purchased for the "real" ones in the laundry room. I love the Hickory and the pocket system ... just seems to be "finicky" ..... the Hickory seems to be a bit "nasty" to work with, primarily due to the coarse grain.


Don-

Sorry I'm so late responding- apparently I didn't receive notification of your post.

Hickory is not bad to work- just be sure you have sharp tooling. I'm making my kitchen cabinets with it- natural with no stain and a couple coats of Fabulon polyurethane.

Did Santa bring your drum sander? If he did, try making a face frame a little thick, then use the sander to achieve finished thickness. You'll be amazed!

Dave