Update to Li-Ion drill review

[Cliff Holmes]

It was pointed out to me that the Dewalt drill didn't seem to be the right shape. In fact, it turns out that Lowes *had* shipped the wrong drill to me, they look identical except for the battery shape. I now have the correct drill, plus another that wasn't available when I did the original review, so I'll run these two new drill though the same tests and update the article in a couple days.

[Cliff Holmes]

The revised review is up. The new Dewalt L-Ion was terribly disappointing, the Ryobi was surprisingly good, and I still can't figure out which drill I want.
(http://www.thewoodnerd.com/reviews/li-drills.html)

[Dan Friedrichs]

Very interesting, Cliff. I think your concerns about the Makita's longevity/warranty are misplaced, though. I recall a few discussions in this board where cordless tool brands were being discussed, and no one had ever had a Makita die.

[Kevin Barnett]

Cliff,
I think that an inclusion of the Hitachi 18v Lion drill would be an interesting addition to the panel. Right now it's running $199 at Lowes.com. It includes two 3 amp/hour batteries and a ten year warranty on the drill.

It's even uglier than the Ryobi though...

[Cliff Holmes]

It's even uglier than the Ryobi though...

Honestly, that's why I didn't include it. The point of the whole exercise was to find a new drill for me. And I can't imagine looking at that Hitachi day after day. It reminds me of the bottom of an athletic shoe.

[John Coloccia]

I have an older Hitachi I bought a few years ago. It replaced my old Porter Cable. I would say at least give the Hitachi another look. I know it's ugly, but they make a nice drill. It took a little while to get used to mine.

My current favorite is the big Milwaukee hammer drill. A buddy of mine has their cordless hammer drill. It's not light but it's by far the most well balanced, most comfortable drill I have ever used, corded/cordless/WHATEVER. Seriously. I've been secretly hoping my Hitachi will just up and die so I can justify buying the Milwaukee.

[Kevin Groenke]

Cliff,

Thanks for the excellent review, a very nice mix of objective information and subjective impressions. I have a Makita set on my xmas list.

I too would really like to see a Hitachi included (also a Panasonic - though they don't really have a comparable unit do they: $$$, 14.4v - but 3ah).

-kg

[Cliff Holmes]

I have a Makita set on my xmas list

My local Home Depot had the set on sale for $199, not sure if that's national or how long. Same price as the drill alone, oddly enough ...

[Mike Rees]

I'm sorry you felt that way about the DCD760. At 1.1 amp hours on the little battery, DeWalt clearly is not going for long usage between charges. At ~30 minutes to charge the battery, they probably figured it wasn't a big deal. Also, the target audience for that class drill will not be running it (or any of them for that matter) in the way you tested.

The compact segment is really intended for users whose primary usage is fastening applications first and drilling second. People that buy a compact drill are probably not going to be lagging large screws or running the drill full bore to failure or running so many holes in a row that the whole assembly gets hot. Your testing scenarios are more in-line with a full size premium cordless drill than a compact.

That being said I returned my DCD760KL. I wanted longer run-time and more heft in my had. The DCD960KL is the XRP version of the drill you tested complete with all metal transmission, 3 speeds, etc. I love the thing, I really do. I upgraded because I only wanted one drill in my collection. If I were going to have two drills, the compact DCD760 would be my choice for hanging blinds, or other light duty tasks.

[Cliff Holmes]

I think your concerns about the Makita's longevity/warranty are misplaced

It's become somewhat confusing. A couple people wrote insisting that the warranty is actually three years. And, sure enough, the box says that. Makita's website says their tools are covered for three years, although there's nothing specific to this tool.

However, the warranty in the owner's manual clearly says it's just one year. I've updated the review to note this and include a scan of the actual owner's manual.

[Cliff Holmes]

My local Home Depot had the set on sale for $199

I was in HD last night, the set is no longer on sale. After some more experience with the impact driver this morning, however, I no longer think it's really worth the extra $60.

[Dave Gaul]

I have the Makita in the review, got it about 4 years ago refurb from cpo. Coudn't be happier with it! The two original 1.5ah batteries are still going strong. About 2 years ago I purchased an extra 3.0ah battery to extend run time/minimize down time for those heavy use times... works pretty well!
About 6 months ago, I bought the big-brother hammer drill version (green and black one), the big-brother impact driver, and the recip saw and two battery kit.... I know have quite the cordless tool system going! I have 5 batteries to use with all these tools! I love being able to use two drills at once, or two drills + impact driver for heavy use moments...

Anyway, probably gave more info than needed for the topic.

I absolutely love my Makita cordless tools, and I don't think you'll go wrong with them!

[Jerome Hanby]

I've got that one, and you are right, it is ugly! But it's the best drill I've ever owned. Not a huge distinction as my only others have been B&D and Dewalt. I've got a Ryobi 18v Combo that I got stuck with on a bait and switch rebate deal, The battery compatibility with the existing tools was intriguing...


Cliff,
I think that an inclusion of the Hitachi 18v Lion drill would be an interesting addition to the panel. Right now it's running $199 at Lowes.com. It includes two 3 amp/hour batteries and a ten year warranty on the drill.

It's even uglier than the Ryobi though...

[Eric DeSilva]

I understand what you are trying to do here. But, frankly, after reading your review, I got stuck on this little sentence: "I would simply buy one of each and check them out head-to-head, the winner doesn't get returned." As a consumer, I'd be pretty bummed out to buy one of your returns and find out you were running it on a hex bit chucked up in a lathe. And, yes, maybe your returns do not get sold as "new," but that means that my cost--as a consumer--goes up because you've just returned eight drills and the retailer is taking a hit.

You are also posting a review on a website. Maybe this doesn't enter into your thinking, but what you have done--acquire a bunch of drills for the purpose of creating a review that will drive traffic to your website--seems to me to exacerbate the issue. It strikes me that the ethical thing to do here is to buy the drills, conduct your reviews, and then sell them second hand. The cost involved becomes your cost for the fact that you now have content for your website.

[Harry Hagan]

Kudos on your comments, Eric. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

[Cliff Holmes]

Eric, I understand what you're saying but I have to respectfully disagree with your imputation of my motives. I didn't decide to create content and then scheme a way to get some stuff to review. I need a new piece of equipment and checked out the alternatives, then decided to share the results. And I seriously doubt that a few minutes turning a load roughly equivalent to a driving a deck screw is doing any damage whatsoever to the drills. Increased cost? A fraction of a cent, maybe.

I would, however, like to thank you for not engaging in hysterical, foaming-at-the-mouth accusations like some others.

[Eric DeSilva]

I actually agree that unbiased reviews are a benefit. But, I think you are discounting the impact of buying and returning items. I don't believe this is a pennies issue.

Just from passing though big box stores and seeing the discounts on opened items, you are probably talking about the retail store taking a 30% hit. In the realm of $150+ drills, that is probably close to a $50 hit per drill, and you plan on returning 7 drills? Isn't that $350 the retailer has to make up somewhere?

[Cliff Holmes]

Well, remember that I'm going to be keeping one drill, but yes, there will be six drills that I purchased, found I didn't like, and returned.

But, keep in mind that those drills are spread out among three different vendors whose 2008 profits were $5.2 billion. Which is why I said that if I increased your annual cost on things you buy, it's a fraction of a cent. I don't think there are hordes of people doing this. If anything, by giving an honest, completely (as best I can) unbiased review of these drills, I could be reducing the number of returns by others.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that's why I did this or that I have some noble higher calling. I did this because I had the chance and I like espousing my opinions :)

[Rick Prosser]

It is so nice to see a civil, respectful disagreement thread. :)
Hope it continues.

[Jerome Hanby]

This vigorous testing before returning the rejected items may be more than the retailers have in mind when they enacted their no questions asked return policies. The end result may be increased prices for everyone. So I guess pointing that out isn't that big a deal.

But, I see many posts on the Creek about getting good deals off of Amazon that include the phrase "no tax, no shipping". I never see anyone hop on their soapbox about the state in which the buyer resides being cheated out of sales tax. Doesn't that also have the same type of effect on everyone that resides in that state? That shortfall has to be made up by some other revenue or reduced expenditures. Possibly not all states are the same, but in Alabama those purchases are supposed to be reported and the state sales tax paid on them. I'm not claiming that anyone actually reports those purchases, but I see little difference in the situations.

I think in both cases it's just part of the way things are. You get to pay a little more for your tools and in return you don't get stuck with one that turns out to be crap. Or you duck the sales tax but you get return hassles and maybe a few more potholes that don't get fixed.

Now if you get one from the big box store, put it though the ringer to make sure you like it, return it for a refund, then buy it from Amazon for less money and no tax or shipping...well, have you considered a career in politics:D.

[Eric DeSilva]

I never see anyone hop on their soapbox about the state in which the buyer resides being cheated out of sales tax. Doesn't that also have the same type of effect on everyone that resides in that state?

There's no tax on internet sales because Congress exempted internet sales from attempts by the states to tax it. Not really much of a debate.

[Eric DeSilva]

But, keep in mind that those drills are spread out among three different vendors whose 2008 profits were $5.2 billion.

The amount those companies made doesn't really change the ethical issue in my mind. If you wouldn't do it to the mom & pop store down the street, I can't see morally justifying doing it to any other store either. So size doesn't really enter into it in my mind.

Yes, not everyone is doing it. But, if you are popularizing the concept of buying seven drills, playing with them, and then returning six of them, are you not encouraging broader adoption of that as a consumer strategy? That does affect my costs. Even worse, it could cause more difficulty for ordinary purchasers to use return policies as they were intended.

Seems to me the answer is either to do what Consumer Reports does--which is buying review samples--or asking the manufacturers for review samples. If they tell you "yes," then you have the moral high ground. If they tell you "no," then it is pretty obvious that doing an end run around it by using store return policies is unauthorized.

[Cliff Holmes]

The amount those companies made doesn't really change the ethical issue in my mind.

And I wasn't addressing that issue. I was addressing your contention that I was significantly increasing your prices.

Was it what they intended? No. Is it ethically pure? No. Am I Consumer Reports or aspire to be? No. Do I feel like you're making a big deal out of almost nothing? Yes.

At this point, we're just talking past each other. I see no need to do anything other than agree that we disagree.

[Jerome Hanby]

I believe what you are talking about is the exemption of Internet companies from collecting sales taxes for sales to states where they have no nexus. I'm sure various states have different laws, but in Alabama, the tax form has a slot for amount spent on Internet sales for which no sales tax was collected. Technically that tax is a use tax, but it's collected at Alabama's state sales tax rate. Other states, YMMV

Just FYI, 3 of the first 4 google results for "do i have to pay sales tax on Internet purchases" cover this topic.


There's no tax on internet sales because Congress exempted internet sales from attempts by the states to tax it. Not really much of a debate.

[Dan Friedrichs]

If you wouldn't do it to the mom & pop store down the street, I can't see morally justifying doing it to any other store either. So size doesn't really enter into it in my mind.



+1. I feel bad returning items to a local hardware store, because I know the owners are hard-working people and returns (that are not in immediately re-stockable condition) cut into their profits. How are the big stores any different?


I agree with Eric. When I read your review, I thought you got them as testers for free. Buying 7 drills, playing with them in order to make content for your website (even if you don't make any revenue from it), then returning the ones you don't like is not ethical behavior, IMHO.

[Frank Warta]

Sales tax is a state issue not a federal issue and so it is up to your state how they deal with sales tax related to online purchases. Most states require that if an item is shipped and received in the same state that the reseller collect sales tax, even if the purchase is made online or over the phone. However most states also require you as a taxpayer to report and pay sales tax on items purchased online from out of state sellers as well.

Living in California there is a exemption for the first $800 spent in a foreign country and "hand-carried" into the state in any 30 day period. Everything else is supposed to be reported and paid for on your state income tax statement.

I know I may be picking nits but it's becoming a bigger issue with states like New York now requiring all sellers regardless of location to charge and pay New York state sales tax on any items shipped to New York.

Here's a sample from our Board of Equalization, there is less clear text on the state's Franchise Tax Board website, but the end result is the same. Since storage is equated to use, sales tax is owed once you receive the item.

"A member of the general public who owes use tax. You buy a backpacking tent over the Internet from a company in Wyoming. The seller ships the tent to your home and does not charge you California tax. You owe use tax as soon as you use or store the tent in California." ~ http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/pub112.pdf

For what it's worth that isn't really my issue. I can kind of see both sides of the returns issue, having worked retail for a number of years. As a sales person it's generally hard to sell open boxed items, even with a discount. It's probably worth mentioning though that an item that looks new with a box that is basically undamaged will simply be repacked and put back on the shelf. Acknowledging that many states have regulations that attempt to control this process, but many retailers will simply ignore them. Items that are returned in a less then pristine condition are often simply sent back to the manufacturer which of course does have a long term affect on cost.

If "everyone" did this it would inevitably lead to higher prices, but since most people don't the direct impact of something like this really is pretty limited. Both manufactures and retails generally have enough margin to "eat" a reasonable discount on a given item without actually realizing a loss on the sale. They may not make much if any net profit but they probably can still afford to pay for the cubic foot the item was renting awaiting sale and of course the various hands that put it there. So again if everyone used this practice, especially without at least attempting to share their impressions of the process, I would probably be more concerned. Most people though are far too lazy to go to this much trouble, and would gladly glean some meaningful insight from this kind of review. So that when they make their one and only purchase it's more likely to be what they really wanted.

I think I would feel more strongly if the OP's website appeared to be ad supported in anyway. Since it doesn't I'm personally willing to call this a gray area and give him the benefit of the doubt and simply classify him as an overzealous consumer.

Finally for what it's worth, I would strongly suggest that the OP contact these companies in the future if he intends to do other such reviews, many of them have a dedicated fleet of tools available for demo, and while they may not provide the new-in-the-box experience, the impact is already calculated into the cost of the tools and he may even have the chance to get more meaningful answers to questions like the one about the Ryobi battery charging inconsistencies, what the Makita warranty really is, etc, by developing meaningful relationships with the vendors.

Sorry this was so long, I can be a bit wordy.

[Wayne Hendrix]

Very interesting, Cliff. I think your concerns about the Makita's longevity/warranty are misplaced, though. I recall a few discussions in this board where cordless tool brands were being discussed, and no one had ever had a Makita die.

Three of my friends/family/co-workers have the exact Makita drill in the review. Two of them died in under a year with minimal use.

[Ted Calver]

Wayne...friends or drills?? :)

[Eric DeSilva]

Sorry, using shorthand. If there is a nexus, then a state can force an e-retailer to collect sales tax. States can collect use taxes, but the issue was (I thought) limited to places that effectively advertised that they didn't charge state taxes, which is generally permitted absent a nexus. Your own liability as a purchaser to cough up use taxes to your state is an entirely different matter. Then again, I'm in Virginia, where we have personal property taxes, so we pay for just owning things.

[Harry Hagan]

Cliff,

Unfortunately, your cavalier attitude toward “borrowing” tools from retailers so that you can benefit from their use without paying is not at all uncommon.

Several years ago when I learned that a neighbor managed a local “box store” I told her that I don’t “loan out” my tools and wondered why her company felt compelled to do so. She agreed that it was not a good idea but that it was indeed her company’s policy. She also stated that it did have a significant impact on operating costs due to not only the cost of processing the initial sale but the additional costs of: Processing return of the merchandise, Restocking and/or discounting the used product, Dealing with manufacturer representatives, Customer dissatisfaction with opened merchandise, etc.

In essence, she said; “It is considered theft because we are required to hire additional personnel to deal with the problem and those costs are passed on to the consumer.”

The next time you think about “borrowing a tool”; we would prefer you rent it from the Tool Rental department.

This has nothing to do with taxes but rather the accuracy of one's moral compass

[Wayne Hendrix]

Wayne...friends or drills?? :)

LOL uh one of each.

[Darrell Bade]

Another thought.

A lot of big name tools have a tag on them that says something like "Try it for 30 days and no questions asked if not satisfied".

I think Bosch is one that has a tag similar to this. How can you determine if you are not satisfied unless you use it?

[Mike Rees]

Another thought.

A lot of big name tools have a tag on them that says something like "Try it for 30 days and no questions asked if not satisfied".

I think Bosch is one that has a tag similar to this. How can you determine if you are not satisfied unless you use it?

DeWalt has that for 90 days - but I think you have to deal with DeWalt to get your money back.

[Kent Cartwright]

I purchased the Makita drill that was reviewed, just as I started a hardwood floor project. I really like the power and torque of the drill, and the speed of the recharge. I did not like the sound I heard when I accidently bumped the clutch control, as it sounds like the clutch may be composed mainly of plastic. I have been extra careful making sure I don't bump that, but I won't be surprised if one day I try to switch the drill from forward to reverse and find the gears stripped. I have the receipt and box safely stored away when/if that happens.

I certaintly hope that is not the case, and i was not able to find reported cases of this being a problem. This is just my opinion, based on my use of the tool.

[Jeremy Wilcox]

i have to agree that purchasing 7 drills to come up with one after testing/using them is a bit on the downward side of morality. But as long as you can sleep at night...whatever. I also would like to comment on the fact that it really isnt a complete review if you choose to leave out a drill on "LOOKS". The hitachi products are TOP of the Line. I bought the lithium Ion 18V hammer/drill driver and impact driver combo for $290 from amazon and i didnt even use/test before i bought i do however own a hitachi 18ga. brad nailer and love it and thats why i went with the hitachi 18V combo. I also personally feel if you choose to leave out a tool that IS QUALITY because of the color scheme ....then you deserve to find dissatisfaction and run through and waste your time on finding somthing to "meet your needs".

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001196NUK/ref=oss_T15_product

[Mike Rees]

i have to agree that purchasing 7 drills to come up with one after testing/using them is a bit on the downward side of morality. But as long as you can sleep at night...whatever. I also would like to comment on the fact that it really isnt a complete review if you choose to leave out a drill on "LOOKS". The hitachi products are TOP of the Line. I bought the lithium Ion 18V hammer/drill driver and impact driver combo for $290 from amazon and i didnt even use/test before i bought i do however own a hitachi 18ga. brad nailer and love it and thats why i went with the hitachi 18V combo. I also personally feel if you choose to leave out a tool that IS QUALITY because of the color scheme ....then you deserve to find dissatisfaction and run through and waste your time on finding somthing to "meet your needs".

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001196NUK/ref=oss_T15_product

No offense, but they DO like like DeWalts that sorta turned into the Incredible Hulk or something ....

Whatever though. If you have a power tool and YOU like it thats all that really matters.

[Richard Dragin]

I have the Makita impact driver, unfortunately Home Depot came out with the combo for it and the drill just after I go the impact. I think you can still get the combo and I believe it's the best value around. I and my co-workers use them (impact and drill) daily along with a few others. The Makita is the hands down winner and I don't see them breaking at all. I do know one guy with the Ryobi and so far he thinks it's great.

[Cliff Holmes]

I wasn't all that impressed with the impact driver. It's really loud and slow. And, surprisingly, it didn't drive the lag screws any further than the drill did.

When HD had the combo on sale for the same price as the drill alone, it was a no-brainer. Now that it's gone back up to +$60, personally, I'd pass.

[James Carmichael]

Another thought.
A lot of big name tools have a tag on them that says something like "Try it for 30 days and no questions asked if not satisfied".
I think Bosch is one that has a tag similar to this. How can you determine if you are not satisfied unless you use it?

True, but any warranty requires good faith on the part of the buyer. I don't think buying a drill knowing it will almost certainly be returned qualifies.

Until reading Harry's comments, the idea of someone "borrowing" a tool never occurred to me, but: I recently stumbled on a recon tool outlet stacked to the ceiling with brand-new-looking Ryobi, Ridgid, John Deere, Homelite, and other tools. Everything I looked at was discounted at least 30% (some up to 50%). All looked absolutely new and most were current (not discontinued) models. Only 1 or 2 stationary tools were obvious demo units. So I wonder if these were all borrowed?

Reminds me of a thread on another forum a few years back: the OP had bought a Delta planer on sale from Lowes, which sat in the box for a while. Then, a higher-end model went on closeout. He returns first purchase, which Lowes accepts (though they didn't have to), buys the nicer one. When he opens the box, there's a Harbor Freight tool inside. Our tool hunter heads back to Lowes to discover they had none of the sale models left and could only offer a refund, which led to his indignant post about how sorry Lowes was. Everyone on the forum seemed to think he was owed a planer at closeout price (frankly, I thought he got what he deserved), because Lowes had failed to open the returned item to verify its contents. In fact, Lowes had been ripped off because they had accepted returns on unopened items, just as the bargain-hunting nimrod had done.

I love a bargain as much as the next person, but the sense of entitlement some folks display toward the big boxes is staggering.