Sawstop brake activated

[mreza Salav]

I'm the new owner of an industrial Sawstop (it's about 2 years old and in very good conditions). Picked it up a few weeks ago (after watching the using market for a long time) and have been setting it up lately.
Built an outfeed table and was about done that decided to install a brand new zero clearance insert.

Installed the insert and checked the distance of the blade to brake and also check to see if the insert is secure. Good!
Started the saw and started raising the blade. Soon after the blade cut through the insert and tip of the blades appeared BAAANGG!!
I knew what has happened, the brake activated and toasted my $110 blade :mad::mad::mad::mad:
So after having a bad day this should happen to cost me over $200.

Started inspecting what went wrong and realized that the riving knife had hit the blade. But it was secure in its place?!
Well when I was raising the blade it was pushed down into the blade.

The sawstop manual doesn't say a damn thing about this possibility.
They even have a picture with the riving knife in the section that talks about installing the insert.
I know, after the fact it's easy to guess what has gone wrong but beforehand...?!

Have written to sawstop to mention this should be added to their manual.

Ok, thanks for letting me vent here and I hope you don't make the same mistake!!:mad::mad:

BTW, is it ok to use the blade now that it has 3 carbide teeth missing?!

[John Coloccia]

So what we all want to know is how's the riving knife? Seriously, did it dig into the knife at all? I have a SS too, by the way. You're going to LOVE it.

[Glen Butler]

Sorry to hear about your mishap. Not only is the blade damaged but you have to replace the brake. How much does that run?

A good blade might be worth the repair. Having any blade stop instantly in a hunk of aluminum, is surely hard on the blade though.

A quality grinding shop should spin the blade before any work is done to check for trueness. Only then should they proceed brazing on new teeth and sharpening. They should be able to tell you upfront exactly what it will cost and if it is even feasible.

[mreza Salav]

the riving knife had just touched the blade (it took me a while to figure out this was the cause). No damage on the riving knife at all.
Here is the blade. Three (out of the 4) teeth in the marked area are missing.

134688

[Carl Babel]

I too have an industrial SS. I don't remember reading any cautions about riving knife/new ZCI, but I haven't read every page of the manual.

I have heard nothing but good things about the SS customer service department. If I were you, I would contact them and describe what happened. Maybe in the interest of keeping their manuals "best in class" (which I think they are), they will add an appropriate warning and reward you with a new brake cartridge.

As for the blade, I have heard from several people that they have had blades repaired and are happy with the results. A fellow woodworker in my town has a service that he raves about; I will try to get their information for you.

After my (hopefully) helpful reply, maybe now I can safely say what first came to my mind:
You sure did get a tough "brake"! :)

(Hope I am neither offending you nor risking my karma :eek:)

[David DeCristoforo]

I don't see how it would be possible to raise a blade up through a blank ZCI with the riving knife in place on any saw. At some point the knife is going to hit the uncut portion of the ZCI. At that point, if you continue to crank the blade up, it does not seem unreasonable to expect the knife to be pushed into the blade. Obviously, it was not tight enough even though it seemed to be "secure in it's place" or it would not have been pushed into the blade. It's a drag that your blade got hosed and on any other saw your damage would have been limited to that although the knife would have probably gotten chewed up as well.. Maybe the manual should have said something about this (but I'll bet they did not anticipate that anyone would try to raise the blade through an uncut piece with the knife in place.) Since there seems to be a reasonable argument that there should have been, maybe you can get them to cut you a deal on the new brake.

[mreza Salav]

I'll see if I find a good shop to get the blade repaired (o.w. it's junk).


I don't see how it would be possible to raise a blade up through a blank ZCI with the riving knife in place on any saw. At some point the knife is going to hit the uncut portion of the ZCI. At that point, if you continue to crank the blade up, it does not seem unreasonable to expect the knife to be pushed into the blade. Obviously, it was not tight enough even though it seemed to be "secure in it's place" or it would not have been pushed into the blade. It's a drag that your blade got hosed and on any other saw your damage would have been limited to that although the knife would have probably gotten chewed up as well.. Maybe the manual should have said something about this (but I'll bet they did not anticipate that anyone would try to raise the blade through an uncut piece with the knife in place.) Since there seems to be a reasonable argument that there should have been, maybe you can get them to cut you a deal on the new brake.

You are right David, that now it is clear why it happened and that it would happen with any saw.
What I am saying is that there should be a sticker on the new insert (which is a Sawstop blank insert) or in the manual to remind the user (who might be someone who is using a new insert with a saw that has a riving knife for the first time) that *Remove the riving knife**.

I have written to Sawstop about this. I noticed a couple of (smaller) errors in their manual and wrote to them. They thanked me and have corrected the manual on their webpage. I am hoping they find my argument about this warning reasonable too.

[Matt Armstrong]

What I am saying is that there should be a sticker on the new insert (which is a Sawstop blank insert) or in the manual to remind the user (who might be someone who is using a new insert with a saw that has a riving knife for the first time) that *Remove the riving knife**.


http://www.phidong.com/images/smiles/ugh.gif

[Tom Grant]

I thought i was the only one dumb enough to do that!

It took me a couple days to see the silver lining in this cloud. You now have a very impressive blade/brake cartridge to hang on the wall. You can wave your arms and ramble on and on trying to explain to visitors how this cool saw has an air bag like thing...
But hand em' a saw blade impaled into a blown brake and they say "wow!".

[Brian Penning]

I'm surprised that there was enough force to move the riving knife down onto the blade.
At the very least I think you would've found the elevation wheel getting more difficult to move, no?
Regarding the blade, get an estimate cause in my case(http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=116369) (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=116369) it was a $100+ to get my WWII mailed, repaired and returned to me. If I had of known that I'd of told them to keep it.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

What we have here is one of those invaluable lessons of life. One of which I'm sure will stick in the back of your mind. or at least I hope it does.

I propose you take this, print it out and tape it to a nice location in your shop in which you will see daily.

http://neverbetter.com/images/c_think_first.gif

The laws of cause and effect are not always as nice to you than this circumstance has proven. Not having the foresight to realize that a riving knife will not magically cut itself through a brand new ZCI is not only perplexing but a disturbing lack of forward thinking.

I'm hoping that you mount the blade on the wall as a constant reminder. After all, it may not be a blade that's damaged next time... Sawstop or not, nothing is infallible and there are other tools in the workshop which can bite twice as hard as a table saw could.

[Paul Ryan]

If it makes you or anyone else feel better, I am pretty sure in the PCS manuel there is a warning about not trying to cut and ZCI with the riving knife in place. It stinks you are out the $$ on the blade and brake, but as others have said it is a good conversation piece. At least you know your brake works. I am convinced if and when the time and arises that my brake needs to activate I will have the only saw that the brake doesn't work on. But I am not about to test it. If some one wants to send me a brake for free I would, I got plenty of cheap junk blades to wreck, but dont have $70 burning a hole in my pocket. You are going to love that saw.

[Lee Schierer]

That looks like a Freud blade. You can send the blade to a Freud authorized shop and they can repair the teeth if the roots are not damaged. Some saw sharpening shops can also replace teeth. Weigh that cost against the cost of new blade.

I have to agree with David that raising a riving knife through a ZCI would seem to be a problem to start with and probably would have resulted in significant blade damage on any saw not just a sawstop saw.

It must have gotten hard to crank the blade up higher at some point prior to the brake activation.

[Don Morris]

Granted an experienced woodworker would never have tried to raise a blade with riving knife up through a blank ZCI. What about a newbie? It would seem to me that Sawstop should anticipate new users would be buying their machine too, and this might be a potential danger for someone not used to making ZCI's. I'm reminded of being a Beta tester for a computer manual. On the first page there were terms that a new computer user wouldn't have had a clue about. The writers "assumed" a level of understanding beyond what they should have. Then on page three they "assumed" everyone had read page one and remembered every word on page one.
Writing manuals is more involved...or should be than you might otherwise think.

[Phil Thien]

I think a sticker on top of new inserts with a "STOP! Remove riving knife for initial plunge" makes a lot of sense. One of those east to remove stickers that doesn't leave residue behind.

[Bill Huber]

Granted an experienced woodworker would never have tried to raise a blade with riving knife up through a blank ZCI. What about a newbie? It would seem to me that Sawstop should anticipate new users would be buying their machine too, and this might be a potential danger for someone not used to making ZCI's. I'm reminded of being a Beta tester for a computer manual. On the first page there were terms that a new computer user wouldn't have had a clue about. The writers "assumed" a level of understanding beyond what they should have. Then on page three they "assumed" everyone had read page one and remembered every word on page one.
Writing manuals is more involved...or should be than you might otherwise think.

I don't agree, there has to be a point were the user takes the responsibility to use a product safely. It is kind of like there are no warnings on the light socket to not put your finger in it and I will guarantee that everyone that has will not do it again, I know I won't.

I hate it that he lost a blade and the brake but that was one of those lessons learned and on this one it just cost him a little money and no one was hurt.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Let me get this straight: The OP did something stupid, something that would have been dangerous and just as destructive on ANY OTHER SAW, and the majority here seems to think SawStop owes him a new cartridge?

I appreciate the OP sharing the story, but to suggest that this is a case of anything other than "temporary user stupidity" is shirking the most primitive responsibilities that come with the use of dangerous equipment.

The more "warnings" are added to manuals, the less likely people are to read them. It's a slippery slope between adding "Don't leave the riving knife installed when there's not a hole for it to go through" and adding "Don't use your saw in the bathtub". Because both of those statements should make any intelligent reader go, "Duh!!"

(Please don't take my comments as rude or expecting perfection from anyone - we all make mistakes, but mistakes require an appropriate response. If I cut through my new miter gauge, I don't start demanding the manufacturer put a "Warning: Don't cut this part!" sticker on the miter gauge - I admit that I did something stupid and learn from the mistake. I don't see how this SawStop situation is any different...)

[John Coloccia]

It's easy to sit hear and criticize, put down and poke fun, but raw statistics tell the true story. Incidents like this aren't limited to the newcomer or the scatterbrained. In fact, it's often the experienced pro that makes the stupid mistake.

I'm a private pilot, and we have a checklist of pneumonic for everything we do. Why? Because when a million things are going on, or when you're just distracted, it's easy to forget little details like lowering the landing gear. The checklist isn't an instruction manual. It's literally a checklist.... ("Did you do this?", Check.."Did you do that", Oh shoot....forget to drain the gas). There's no reason why a manufacturer shouldn't include checklists for operations you don't perform everyday. A "Set bandsaw wheels coplanar" checklist, for example, would be GREAT. Here's all the tools you need, here's what to do, here's all the bolts that have to get retightened when you're done. Oh, I guess I'm the only one who's ever left something snugged up instead of properly torqued. :eek:

I worked in aerospace for some time, and believe me when I tell you that we knew the equipment WAY better than you'll ever know any piece of equipment you bought for your shop. We should....we typically designed and built the stupid thing, every part...everything. When you're using the equipment for real, every time you touch it...and I mean every time....you go with a checklist. Every time. Period. Don't care who you are...don't care that you drew the part, machined it yourself and bolted it on. "Where's your procedure?". No? Come back when you're prepared. It's not that there was a lack of trust, and it's not that we're stupid. It's just much too easy to forget something. You sneeze. You drop a screw. "Oh, where was I?". Good question.

On the SawStop, if the blade is retracted (as I normally keep mine, mainly to protect the blade), the riving knife can't be seen. When you pull off the insert, it's really not obvious that the knife is attached unless you look down into the cabinet. It would be very easy to remove an insert, stick a new one on and do exactly what the OP did. I'm sure it's happened many times to many different people.

My wife made me a tiny little stop sign that I keep tacked to the wall. It's cute. I look at it a lot. It works....makes me stop and think. I still screw up. DOH! :rolleyes:

[Chris Nolin]

Mreza, I thank you for posting this and exposing yourself to the potential for embarrassment. I just purchased a used original ICS as well, but am still getting it tuned up, so I haven't cut anything with it yet. I also bought a new zero clearance insert for it, and though I haven't taken it out of the box, I assumed there must be a cut-out for the riving knife, because the beat-up insert currently installed has a cut-out that looks factory-made. So, thanks again for posting because (never having owned a saw with a riving knife before) I might have made the exact same mistake you did. You may have saved me $200!

[Scott Hildenbrand]

Everyone makes mistakes.. It's just when the responsibility of those mistakes gets pushed onto someone else for the lack of a sticker which should otherwise be common sense. That bothers me..

But then, I'm sure there are already warnings on some tools that their blades spin at a high rate of speed.

At any rate... I trust, lesson learned.

BTW, I've almost done the same thing myself, so don't feel that I'm thinking I'm infallible. Everyone does things that are stupid when they don't stop and think.

In a woodshop, there is no room for not stopping to think.

[Walt Caza]

Hi Mo,
Sorry for your mishap.
You found out the hard way, that you cannot plunge cut on a
tablesaw with riving knife in place.

I learned this same lesson in January of 2007 from longtime Creekers Per Swenson and his Dad.
Here is a link to that ole thread: (link)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=50168

Per mentioned at that time, that the otherwise excellent SawStop manual
did Not warn of this potential error.
Thanks for again warning others,
be well,
Walt

ps I know you have met my pal Gary Zimmel out that way,
and I know your woodworking is outstanding!

[mreza Salav]

Thanks to all (including those who blamed me).
I didn't expect the riving knife would cut through the ZCI (if you think I expected it then you think I am more stupid than I'd like to be).
Had I thought carefully about it *beforehand* then I'd have definitely removed it.
The funny thing is if I had the blade guard instead of the riving knife I would have to remove it (eventhough there was a cut pre-made in the ZCI blank by sawstop to let the guard through and that's exactly where the riving knife would go through too). After the fact, I looked again into the manual and the page that talks about installing the ZCI (may not be a brand new one though) it has a picture with the riving knife installed. So at the very least they can say *remember to remove this when installing a blank ZCI*.

Is it a stupid mistake? yes, especially in the hindsight. The reason I posted it here is to remind everyone else this simple thing that I bet many seasoned woodworkers can easily forget.

We all know every manual is full of stupid warnings like "don't touch the running blade" (well in the case of sawstop that wouldn't be too dangerous ;)) but I strongly believe having a sticker on the ZCI or a note on the page of manual that talks about ZCI to remind the user **Remember to remomve the riving knife when installing a new ZCI** would save many the griefe and won't be the most stupid warning of the manual or a stupid warning on the ZCI.

Walt: thanks for the comment. I know Gary and I was following the thread on the morris chair you were building a while ago (too). Good job.

[Bruce Page]

Granted an experienced woodworker would never have tried to raise a blade with riving knife up through a blank ZCI. What about a newbie? It would seem to me that Sawstop should anticipate new users would be buying their machine too, and this might be a potential danger for someone not used to making ZCI's. I'm reminded of being a Beta tester for a computer manual. On the first page there were terms that a new computer user wouldn't have had a clue about. The writers "assumed" a level of understanding beyond what they should have. Then on page three they "assumed" everyone had read page one and remembered every word on page one.
Writing manuals is more involved...or should be than you might otherwise think.

Good point and I do agree. I think we all have had brain fart moments, I know I have. While it is impossible to cover every contingency in a operating procedure or service manual, manufactures should make every effort to do so.
On the other hand, if this had happened to me I would not expect Saw Stop to replace the brake & blade, free of charge.

[John Coloccia]

Everyone makes mistakes.. It's just when the responsibility of those mistakes gets pushed onto someone else for the lack of a sticker which should otherwise be common sense. That bothers me..

But then, I'm sure there are already warnings on some tools that their blades spin at a high rate of speed.

At any rate... I trust, lesson learned.

BTW, I've almost done the same thing myself, so don't feel that I'm thinking I'm infallible. Everyone does things that are stupid when they don't stop and think.

In a woodshop, there is no room for not stopping to think.

I liked your little "Think First" graphic by the way. I printed it out and stuck it in the lab at work, right next to the long line of blown up and charred components we have taped to the bench. LOL. Who said engineering can't be exciting?

And no, SS shouldn't pay for the brake. That brake probably saved the blade and the riving knife from serious damage, plus whatever else would have gotten damaged by a mangled blade and flying debris. I'd say it did it's job and the damage will probably end up being the same or cheaper than it would have otherwise :D That's one way of looking at it, anyway.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Mreza - sorry to hear of your issue with your SS. A general question for you or for others....in watching the video on the SS site of the brake cartridge firing, it looks like there are some junk 'pieces' that also go flying off - like the teeth from your bade. Possibly also pieces from the aluminum brake. So - what about those pieces? should you be worried about cleaning (vacuuming) out the inside of the cabinet so these pieces don't fly around and trigger a a false firing?

[Tom Grant]

Oh yeah, it got harder to crank. :o
I had clearly overdosed on stupid pills that morning.

[Glenn Clabo]

Been there...done that.
The brain says DON"T FORCE IT!...
just before you go looking for the broom to sweep up the mess.

[David Prince]

Is it truely possible or absolutely necessary to come up with a manual that covers every possible contingency? I don't usually read the manual as it is. If I screw up, I will blame myself! We all make dumb mistakes. We just want to make sure we always walk away with two eyes, two arms, two legs, 10 fingers, and all of our bodily fluids intact!!!:eek:

[mreza Salav]

Mreza - sorry to hear of your issue with your SS. A general question for you or for others....in watching the video on the SS site of the brake cartridge firing, it looks like there are some junk 'pieces' that also go flying off - like the teeth from your bade. Possibly also pieces from the aluminum brake. So - what about those pieces? should you be worried about cleaning (vacuuming) out the inside of the cabinet so these pieces don't fly around and trigger a a false firing?

Don't know if there are any debris. The carbide teeth are mostly stuck in the brake.

For others: it didn't become any hard to crank the blade up (none that I notice).
I see (as per Walt link) that I'm not the first to make this mistake (it seems Per, a pro woodworker) has had the same mis-fortune.
I still insist a small sticker on the ZCI (as a reminder) is all it takes to save these people from this.

[Jerome Hanby]

In a world where we are compelled to have warnings on Preparation H to indicate that it should not be used orally, a warning about the riving knife isn't that unreasonable...


I don't see how it would be possible to raise a blade up through a blank ZCI with the riving knife in place on any saw.

[John Coloccia]

In a world where we are compelled to have warnings on Preparation H to indicate that it should not be used orally, a warning about the riving knife isn't that unreasonable...

I'm trying to imagine what bizaare turn of events precipitated that warning. On the other hand, I don't want to know..

[brian c miller]

I am not a complete noob but I agree that there probably should be a blurb on the ZCI about the riving knife. Even on a standard ZCI there are a few warning and instructions.... heck even my new Ridge TS2000 came with instructions saying you shouldn't start the saw if the blade was not able to turn freely (AKA about to contact some surface).


Should that be implied knowledge or explicated stated...:confused:

[brian c miller]

Here's the except form the Grizzly ZCI

Disconnect saw from power source before fitting or removing insert.
• Always wear eye protection.
• Be sure blade is NOT in contact with insert before switching on.
• Do not attempt to tilt the arbor while the blade is in the insert! The blade will bind, causing severe damage
and possible injury! For beveled cuts, a separate, dedicated insert must be prepared. Pre-set the angle
and then proceed as instructed below.
• Insert must be securely clamped down with a board before plunging blade up through it to cut kerf.
• If using blade stabilizers, check clearance before raising blade.


Would it really be that big of a deal to add something...

[Jeff Monson]

Simple things like this are sometimes easily overlooked, thanks for posting this as a helpful reminder of things to look out for.

I needed a zero insert for my pm2000 and called my local dealer, he said he had 2 in stock and they were 80 dollars each, I couldnt believe the price, so I went down to the store and low and behold it had the slot cut in it for the riving knife.

[Roger Jensen]

Were you attempting to use the solid ZCI with a standard blade and riving knife? Maybe I'm missing something.

I don't think SawStop ever intended the solid ZCI to be used with that blade. The solid ZCI is for the dado blade, which is used without the riving knife. They have a dedicated, (narrow groove, not zero clearance) insert for use with the blade and riving knive. I don't know how you could ever get the slot long enough for the riving knife, even if it didn't fire.

Sorry you lost your blade and brake. I've had it happen twice, first when I got my Kreg fence too close, the second when I put the same Kreg fence in wrong slot and ran it across the blade. Pilot error in both cases. One blade and fired brake on the wall is enough...

Roger

[Mike Cruz]

If I may, I would like to place a warning on this Forum:

WARNING:
Calling people stupid for mistakes they made when they are big enough to post them is what keeps people from sharing in their errors. Sharing in their errors is what helps the rest of us from making the same mistakes. Regardless of how stupid someone's actions may have been, ridiculing them usually doesn't help the situation.

That said, maybe Sawstop should include an extra stop with every saw...knowing that most people are going to make a stupid mistake. Oops, I mean, error because of not thinking things through.

Seriously, I didn't get the idea that the OP thought that Sawstop should give him a new brake or blade. Just that they should put a warning on the ZCI.

I could be nasty and say that's what you get for using a riving knife, but I'll refrain because whether or not I think they are necessary or helpful is irrelevant. YOU want to use one (for whatever your reasons: safety, usefullness, everyone else is doing it,...whatever) so you have the right and who is to say you shouldn't. Certainly not me. But I also won't call you an idiot for what what obviously a lapse in judgement. Sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees. You were excited about the new gadget and got some tunnel vision. If this were a friend that were installing it on his TS and you were a bystander, I would bet money you would have tapped him on the shoulder right before he hit the power button and said something like, "Um, what are you doing?" or "I wouldn't reccommend that".

Thanks for the post. It is an eye opener for all of us to not rush and take our time.

[Steve Rowe]

I don't agree, there has to be a point were the user takes the responsibility to use a product safely. It is kind of like there are no warnings on the light socket to not put your finger in it and I will guarantee that everyone that has will not do it again, I know I won't.

I hate it that he lost a blade and the brake but that was one of those lessons learned and on this one it just cost him a little money and no one was hurt.

Ditto on Bill's comment, it should be obvious without instructions in the manual on a sticker on the ZCI. Riving knives don't cut their own slots no matter how hard you try. If manufacturers included warning labels or instructions on everything that could possibly be done to actuate the brake, the list could never be all inclusive. While I don't have a Sawstop, I suspect the instruction manual does not tell you to not cut hotdogs, meat, vegetables, or most other things other than wood.

That isn't to say we all haven't done something in the shop due to a loss of mind event in the past. Several years ago, I cut through a $279 aluminum crosscut fence on a Felder by mispositioning it on the slider. It was my fault and not the manufacturer for not specifying that I should not do that in the instruction manual. Make the mistake once, move on and don't repeat.

[Phil Thien]

Seriously, I didn't get the idea that the OP thought that Sawstop should give him a new brake or blade. Just that they should put a warning on the ZCI.


+1.

(1) It is clear (from this thread) that other SawStop owners have made the same mistake.

(2) I would guess (imagine) that SawStop mis-fires (those caused by reasons other than the blade coming in contact w/ skin) substantially outnumber real fires. Especially if you count hot dogs. :D

(3) I would guess (again, just IMHO) that as far as mis-fires go, leaving the RK in place when plunging the insert account for a substantial portion (if not majority) of those mis-fires. Especially if you exclude hot dogs. :D

(5) A 5-cent sticker would fix that for about 95% of the users (some guys you just can't help).

[Myk Rian]

We don't need warnings to protect ourselves from every conceivable mishap.
There is such a thing as common sense, and a manufacturer shouldn't have to pay because someone didn't use it.

[Cody Colston]

Normally I'd say that at some point the end user has to be responsible for their actions and that it's unreasonable for instructions to forsee every possible event that might lead to an incident with the equipment.

However, since lawyers are primarily responsible for the ridiculous warning labels required on products (don't eat the Preparation H), and the inventor/owner fo Sawstop is a lawyer, I think it would only be poetic justice to hold them responsible for the lack of a warning about removing the riving knife before raising the blade through a ZCI.

[Keith Christopher]

Thanks for the heads up to any future owners. while I don't see why this would not be an addition. It seems a reasonable enough request. It would seem an easy mistake someone could make. I think alerting them to this is a good thing to do and hopefully the company decides to remind us. In the excitement of a new tool sometimes we're too eager to get it up and running to stop and think. But I am glad there is a place like this for folks to share a mishap (glad no one was hurt) and let our community know.

[David DeCristoforo]

I would like to add to this that my comments were not intended to make the OP feel "stupid" but rather to point out that his oversight was exacerbated by the fact that he was using a SawStop. On any other machine, there would not be a $200 brake to replace. The damage to the blade is regretful but, in this instance, the SS might have prevented further damage and possible injury by triggering the brake. It seems to me that it did exactly what it was designed to do even though, fortunately, human flesh was not directly involved.

It is true that we cannot caution or be cautioned about every possible potential for injury or damage, especially if you factor in the reality that most of them have not been discovered yet! But most reputable manufacturers will not have a problem amending their operating instructions to include something like this that might be obvious to someone with more experience but maybe not to those with less. After all, "experience" can be defined as simply having been at it long enough to discover a large number of the known possible pitfalls. Many owner's manuals include instructions like "be sure to tighten the arbor nut" when it should be apparent to anyone with "common sense".

[Stephen Edwards]

If I may, I would like to place a warning on this Forum:

WARNING:
Calling people stupid for mistakes they made when they are big enough to post them is what keeps people from sharing in their errors. Sharing in their errors is what helps the rest of us from making the same mistakes. Regardless of how stupid someone's actions may have been, ridiculing them usually doesn't help the situation.

That said, maybe Sawstop should include an extra stop with every saw...knowing that most people are going to make a stupid mistake. Oops, I mean, error because of not thinking things through.

Seriously, I didn't get the idea that the OP thought that Sawstop should give him a new brake or blade. Just that they should put a warning on the ZCI.

I could be nasty and say that's what you get for using a riving knife, but I'll refrain because whether or not I think they are necessary or helpful is irrelevant. YOU want to use one (for whatever your reasons: safety, usefullness, everyone else is doing it,...whatever) so you have the right and who is to say you shouldn't. Certainly not me. But I also won't call you an idiot for what what obviously a lapse in judgement. Sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees. You were excited about the new gadget and got some tunnel vision. If this were a friend that were installing it on his TS and you were a bystander, I would bet money you would have tapped him on the shoulder right before he hit the power button and said something like, "Um, what are you doing?" or "I wouldn't reccommend that".

Thanks for the post. It is an eye opener for all of us to not rush and take our time.

My sentiments, exactly. The guy made a mistake, figured out what happened, owned up to it and shared his experience and thoughts with others. Perhaps his having posted his error will help someone else to avoid the same mistake.

Seems to me that his biggest gripe was the lack of a warning label. There's nothing unreasonable about his wish that there be a warning label. It's also perfectly reasonable for others to disagree with the need for one.

However, in my opinion, it is not polite to use such terms as "stupid" when referring to another person's mistakes, on this forum. It serves no useful purpose. It's OK for me to refer to my mistakes as being stupid. It's not OK for me to refer to another person's mistake as being stupid.

[Glen Blanchard]

On any other machine, there would not be a $200 brake to replace.

I'd just like to point out that (unless the cost of SS brakes has drastically increased) the actual cost of a brake cartridge is more like $60 - $80. If a $100 blade needs to be replaced along WITH the brake, THEN it approaches $200. The brake by itself though is nowhere near that expensive.

Just setting the record straight for those who might have thought $200 was exorbitant.

[David DeCristoforo]

Thanx for clarifying Glen. I just tossed the "$200" out there without having any real idea about what a replacement brake cartridge costs.

[mreza Salav]

- To all of you who think such a mistake will not happen to you: good for you!

- I didn't ask Sawstop to give me a brake cartridge, only asked to update their manual. But now that I go through the manual more carefully and look at the ZCI blank I feel their manual in this regard is much worse than I thought initially (I explain why below).

For those of you who have not looked at the manual of Sawstop here are the relevant parts about ZCI.
There is only one page about how to install the original (facotry cut) ZCI.
In that they have the following picture:

134755

It clearly shows that to install the *original* ZCI (which has the blade kerf pre-cut) the riving knife is in place. Then on a different page it talks about how to adjust a ZCI and shows what seems to be a blank ZCI in the picture without talking at all about how to install a new one. There they have the following photo:

134756

What is more interesting is what they say about their ZCI:

Standard Inserts for 10" Blades

- Precision machined from a high-quality, ultra strong phenolic core material that is covered on top and bottom with a low-friction, wear-resistant melamine surface
- Positioning screws and lock-down screws ensure a solid and precise fit in the table
- Pre-formed clearance slots for SawStop blade guard and riving knife
- Dual metal wear plates for anti-kickback pawls

For the record here is the picture of the new ZCI i was going to install:

134757

As you can see the ZCI blank of SS *does* have a pre-cut slot for blade guard/riving knife and it is a big cut. And as they say (quoted above) this is for the blade guard and riving knife but how on earth I'm supposed to guess that although this cut is made in the factory it is not big enough to clear the riving knife?! Given that there is nowhere no mention of *Although we have made this big cut for the riving knife/blade guard you need to remove the riving knife if you are installing a NEW ZCI*. and that their photos all along have the riving knife in place, I find it not out of line if someone forgets or even ignores to double check if the riving knife is really clear or not.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...how on earth I'm supposed to guess that although this cut is made in the factory it is not big enough to clear the riving knife?! "

Well now... that is a point, isn't it... But if you look at the illustration you can see that the RI is still going to be in the way. I'm not saying that to criticize you. Just to agree that the instructions do imply that the blade could be raised with the RI in place when it obviously can not.

[Roger Jensen]

This doesn't look like either of my SS ZCIs. I have both the pre-cut ZCI that comes with the saw, and the ZCI blank for dado blades. Did you get this from SS? If so, it must be an old model.

Roger

[Scott Hildenbrand]

"...how on earth I'm supposed to guess that although this cut is made in the factory it is not big enough to clear the riving knife?! "

That is indeed deceptive looking to those who do not realize how differently riving knives work vs. splitter. The issue is that the riving knives follow closely to the blade throughout the lift movement.

At this point I'm trying to recall if any other saws which have a riving knife have any warnings on the blank ZCI's.. I know that some DO have warnings, but not sure what they pertain to.. Most likely making sure the blade is clear of the fence when the blade is plunged through.

Chock it up to a learning experience and a greater understanding of how riving knives work. It's the riving knifes GREATEST feature that got ya into trouble.. It stays close with the blade, always.. ;)

So... What warning stickers has everyone seen on blade inserts? Quite honestly a note about removing the riving knife isn't that off track or absurd. It's not like people are chewing on the insert.


I did scan through the manual to see what it does say about ZCIs and the information is indeed badly lacking. It does tell you however never to install your blade in backwards because the break may not stop it from chopping your hand off.. Why would you ever install a blade backwards? :\

[mreza Salav]

This doesn't look like either of my SS ZCIs. I have both the pre-cut ZCI that comes with the saw, and the ZCI blank for dado blades. Did you get this from SS? If so, it must be an old model.

Roger

This is the standard ZCI from SS. I have flipped it over maybe you recognize it:

134759

[Harold Burrell]

In a world where we are compelled to have warnings on Preparation H to indicate that it should not be used orally...

ummm...it's not??? :eek:

[Karl Brogger]

Congradulations, you learned something the best way possible, the hard way.

Being a natural born idiot, I find that this trully is the only way to make thing stick. Its a method that has taught me many things.

-That sliding down pavement at high speed hurts.
-That 24oz long handle waffle face hammers will literally explode flesh when you miss that 6" ring shank barn nail.
-That screws don't disappear when going into material, they actually go through it. Works for nails pnuematic nails too. I'm still not sure about the hand driven nails.
-Band saws cut flesh really well, as do chisels. Come to think of it, so do coping saws.
-When testing the hardness of standing trees, its best not to use an ATV and your helmeted head.
-etc........

We all do stupid stuff. If you feel stupid, that's a good thing. If you don't, it means you didn't learn a damn thing, and that you are in fact stupid. But the more dumb things you do, and the more dumb you feel, the more diligent you are about thinking before acting, and that's pretty smart.

[Harold Burrell]

Thank you for posting this. I could very possibly (even probably) done the very same thing.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

ummm...it's not??? :eek:


Nope... But it does make a mean wrinkle cream. :p

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Well, Mreza, I for one, would like to thank you for posting. I was originally thinking how could you have thought the riving knife didn't need to be taken off. With those pics, I can now see how one can assume that the riving knife would pass through the slot that is there. One can forget that the riving knife hangs over the blade, and only with forethought, you can say, "OH, the knife will hit the insert". I can forsee that I could have made the same mistake. And for those of you who think that the height adjustment would get harder, the SS has a shock lift that makes moving that 5 horse easy as pie. I can also see that if the riving knife did hit the insert, the shock lift would help enough to not make turning the handle very hard.

Thanks for posting, and sorry for your very costly lesson. Please keep posting. Never mind the many posters who type, how can you be that stupid, then think that they may hurt other peoples feelings for no good reason.

Your SS didn't come with 2 10" brakes? Mine had a spare. HOPE to never ever use one.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

Congradulations, you learned something the best way possible, the hard way.

That's not my favorite way, but I've surely done it enough myself.. In fact, 5 out of 6 in your list I've done myself..

- Bandsaws also cut bone well, too.
- Pocket knives cut tendons well when used wrong.
- Plexiglas makes a really great formed splint for above injury.
- If you smack yourself in the thumb more than twice with a hammer, expect to do it continuous thereafter.


We all do stupid stuff. If you feel stupid, that's a good thing. If you don't, it means you didn't learn a damn thing, and that you are in fact stupid.

Sadly enough I know several people who fall into that. Typically for 99.9% of the things that happen to them they always say "It's not my fault. I didn't do it"

Ah well.

[george wilson]

2 quick points: 1; If you have the blade lowered it wouldn't be possible to see a warning sticker on the riving knife,perhaps. 2; My pharmacist told me I'd be surprised at how many people take suppositories orally!!!

If you are going to use dangerous machines,you must have a mechanical aptitude,or you could get hurt or damage something. Machines just do not forgive mistakes. The riving knife obviously was nearly over the top of the blade.

[James Biddle]

Am I assuming correctly that you had a board clamped to the table top that prevented the riving knife from simply pushing the ZCI up, and therefore moved the riving knife into the blade?

[John Coloccia]

The ZCI is captured.

[Mike Cruz]

I think he is lobbying for a warning on the zero clearance insert, not on the riving knife...but a good point if a warning were to be put on the knife itself.

[John Callahan]

- To all of you who think such a mistake will not happen to you: good for you!

I'm not one of them ........... I went to the same "the hard way" school Karl did. If you think it won't happen to you, you've probably greatly increased the chances that it will. Should it have happened?-no ....... but by posting about about it you've saved others from the same fate.

[Al Willits]

Congradulations, you learned something the best way possible, the hard way.

Being a natural born idiot, I find that this trully is the only way to make thing stick. Its a method that has taught me many things.

-That sliding down pavement at high speed hurts.
-That 24oz long handle waffle face hammers will literally explode flesh when you miss that 6" ring shank barn nail.
-That screws don't disappear when going into material, they actually go through it. Works for nails pnuematic nails too. I'm still not sure about the hand driven nails.
-Band saws cut flesh really well, as do chisels. Come to think of it, so do coping saws.
-When testing the hardness of standing trees, its best not to use an ATV and your helmeted head.
-etc........

We all do stupid stuff. If you feel stupid, that's a good thing. If you don't, it means you didn't learn a damn thing, and that you are in fact stupid. But the more dumb things you do, and the more dumb you feel, the more diligent you are about thinking before acting, and that's pretty smart.


I'd add, joiner knifes can cut like crazy even when the units off.
Wiped out my band aid supply on that one.


I agree with no manufacture can add enough warnings to cover everything, a bit of common sense is in order along with maybe a learning curve.

Be responsible for your actions.

I find no fault with him wanting the manufacture to add a warning and I'd assuming the manufacture will, especially if its just a add to for a online manual.
Printed manuals may be a different deal though, how many times has this happened versus how much $ to change a printed copy?


I think "blame" might be taken as a bit harsh, and I think having a brain fart would work well.

Thanks for posting this and hopefully it will help keep the rest of more aware of what we're doing.

Al

[Harold Burrell]

Not that this will add much to the discussion, but...there is something that I want to say.

I for one could very easily see myself having done the very same thing here. Sorry...but I can see why and how he did this.

That said...I can also understand why he would be peeved. I would be too. I would be upset with SawStop for not warning me. I would be upset with the saw (because the built in safety feature is supposedly there to protect me...not itself). And I would be upset with me...for not seeing this coming.

Compound all of that with the expense.

Bottomline...I would have been ticked.

And I would like to think that I could come here and vent a little. And not be told I was stupid (since I would have already figured that out). Not be told that SawStop would not pay to fix it (Especially if I never mentioned that in my OP). And not be told that my idea of a warning label of some sort was unnecessary (methinks SawStop could and should decide that. Suggestions are just that..."suggestions").

Anyway...just my $.02...

[Rick Prosser]

I am glad for the posting. I have not unpacked my SS yet, and I hope I don't make some other mistake (stupid or otherwise), but I will remember (keep repeating....remember to remove knife...) if I need to add a ZCI in the future.

Just last night I turned on the lathe with the wrench in the chuck. That was just stupid on my part - no warning label required:D (btw - no damage)

[Roger Jensen]

My mistake. I now realize the one that ships with the saw has been pre-cut. I had assumed all of their ZCIs for the 10 inch saw were pre-cut, and you were working with the other ZCI for dado blades.

Days after the fact the issue is now clear. :o Please accept my apologies...

Roger

[mreza Salav]

Am I assuming correctly that you had a board clamped to the table top that prevented the riving knife from simply pushing the ZCI up, and therefore moved the riving knife into the blade?

The SS ZCI is different from others. Even the blank can be installed into place and it is held in place with a screw (no need to clamp anything).

[David DeCristoforo]

FWIW, I sent a link to this thread to Steven Gass. Maybe he will have something to contribute...

[Kevin Groenke]

We've had the same thing happen once or twice when raising the blade through stock to make blind cuts.

Since the riving knife is always there and almost never in the way, it's quite easy to forget to remove it when necessary. The trick is realizing what is causing the resistance when raising the blade and STOPPING before the riving knife gets pushed into the blade.

I agree that a sticker on in uncut zci would be a simple remedy and would probably save a few cartridges. I think SS owes us all a spare cartridge for sharing the idea with them. A note/warning in the manual probably wouldn't be much help as we don't all look in the manual every time we do something. If you think about what you're doing, it's obvious that it's not going to work.

I personally hope SS gives Mreza a replacement cartridge just for sharing his story and bringing attention to SS again.

-kg

[Brian Penning]

On another forum Sawstop is in fact trying to contact mreza. A nice post too I might add.
I'll let mreza(what's the name mean anyway?) post it.

[Howard Lesiuk]

I have been a member and dedicated lurker here for a couple of years now. I consider myself fortunate to have benefitted from the collective wisdom and experience of the many other members who post here. There are clearly quite a number of very skilled and experienced woodworkers who post. I have been reluctant to post thus far as I have seldom felt I had much useful to contribute ("...better to remain silent and be thought ignorant than speak and remove all doubt..."). I have tried to return some value to the forum by being a contributor and store customer. This thread has finally drawn me out.

I have just purchased a Sawstop PCS (and, yes, I guess that statement does technically constitute a stealth gloat) and will take delivery in one week. As I read the original post, it was immediately apparent to me that I would have been very likely to have repeated the mistake described and suffered the consequent psychological and financial penalties. Fortunately, having read about this unfortunate incident, there is now essentially no chance that this will happen to me. I am very grateful to mreza Salav for sharing this - thank you very much.

Cheers,
Howard Lesiuk

[mreza Salav]

Well I got a response form sawstop.
Since this post might get lost in the other replies I started a new thread
explaining it:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1280263#post1280263

[Glen Butler]

We don't need warnings to protect ourselves from every conceivable mishap.
There is such a thing as common sense, and a manufacturer shouldn't have to pay because someone didn't use it.

The manufacturer never pays. We pay. It doesn't cost the manufacturer more without it costing us more. They aren't going let anything affect their bottom line. If we want a sticker, we should get the sticker. Shoot my $50 zero clearance insert now costs $50.05.

I imagine that most of the time a manufacture adds a warning label or something to the manual it is because it would cost them more not to do so. i.e. Legal Fees, lawsuits, government mandates and associated fines.

[Kevin Groenke]

How about a non-conductive riving knife? We use phenolic sheet for throat plates and the like, it's incredibly tough stuff (re-entry capsules for space flight are made of it). Polycarbonate might even do the trick.

They might require occasional replacement, but they wouldn't trigger the brake mechanism if they hit the blade for some reason.

Then again, the thought of a failed riving knife being kicked back is rather terrifying.... maybe not.

-kg

[M. A. Espinoza]

I don't visit too often but I stumbled on this thread.

Same thing happened to me and I am a woodworker by trade so its not exclusive to newbies. Happened towards the end of the day and I felt pretty close to how Harold did.

Ticked that I missed anticipating the problem and that that little sticker would have prevented it (an idiot sticker). I don't think I'm an idiot but I am capable of momentary lapses. Pretty much the reason I have the Sawstop, I'm careful but realize a lapse is possible. I've seen it happen to woodworkers and they weren't stupid.

Because in all my previous experience I had cut ZCI's on saws without shark fin riving knives I wasn't conditioned to the issue. After the brake activation I am certain I wouldn't repeat the mistake.

But I couldn't help but think that if it were something I produced and could see an easy mistake my customer could make I would place a reminder label to help keep them from making the error (if I couldn't design it out of the product).

It didn't cost me any blood so I wasn't going to make a Federal case out of it but its interesting to see how many people take the stance of "if you're stupid enough to have a car crash..."

Mistakes happen, doesn't mean their idiots. Pointing out that a simple sticker would have saved a lot of grief doesn't make that person someone that absolves themselves of all personal responsibility as some seem to imply.




Not that this will add much to the discussion, but...there is something that I want to say.

I for one could very easily see myself having done the very same thing here. Sorry...but I can see why and how he did this.

That said...I can also understand why he would be peeved. I would be too. I would be upset with SawStop for not warning me. I would be upset with the saw (because the built in safety feature is supposedly there to protect me...not itself). And I would be upset with me...for not seeing this coming.

Compound all of that with the expense.

Bottomline...I would have been ticked.

And I would like to think that I could come here and vent a little. And not be told I was stupid (since I would have already figured that out). Not be told that SawStop would not pay to fix it (Especially if I never mentioned that in my OP). And not be told that my idea of a warning label of some sort was unnecessary (methinks SawStop could and should decide that. Suggestions are just that..."suggestions").

Anyway...just my $.02...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The tone of some of the posts here gets under my skin.

The only person who won't make a mistake now and then is somebody who isn't doing anything.

It takes a lot of courage to go public admitting your mistake so others might benefit from your less than stellar exprience.

Everybody who makes a mistake IS NOT an idiot. I've seen some really stupid mistakes performed by some really intellignent, well educated persons.

Often, companies will absorb from their profit, the minor expense of placing a label or other cheap change on something because it is a matter of customer satisfaction which could have an effect on future sales or may eliminate the possiblity of a future lawsuit. To say that the cost will passed on to the consumer is unproven speculation.

People of all experience levels can make mistakes....beginners and pros...

Lighten up.....Learn from his experience so the mistake is not repeated in your shop.