Lithium Battery Problem

[Jim Rimmer]

A while back I bought a Ryobi drill with a full size and a compact battery with charger (18V). It was a good deal since it was cheaper than just buying a battery and charger. I can't remember how long I've had it but probably a year or less and it hasn't had a lot of use. Now, all of a sudden the full size battery is kaput. I put it in the charger, it charges, and then I put it in a tool and it dies immediately (it will turn a drill for a few seconds). I've thought about taking it back to the borg and see if they will replace it but I don't know how long I've had it - I just know I haven't had it long enough to expect it to die.

Anyone else had a problem with Lithium batteries? I'm leary of lithium so is there anything to be done at home that is not dangerous?

[Mike Rees]

Lithium Ion batteries have a TREMENDOUS amount of positives when it compares to Nicad. They have NO memory effect, you can charge them as you please, and they output constant power. Plus they are exceptionally light.

The one downside is you cannot let them go down to 0 charge. This will effectively kill the battery.

Now, before anybody asks why their 'Brand X' tool w/ lithium batteries goes strong than dies but they can still recharge the battery? Higher end tools like the DeWalt Nano line have circuitry built into the battery that monitors the cells - when they get close to bottoming out the circuit cuts off the juice so you don't inadvertantly do the one thing you just can't do to a lithium ion battery - let it go to '0'.

It won't die immediatly, but if you let it go you have sent it well on its way to premature failure.

That, or maybe you just got a bad battery. ;)

[Bob DeViney]

I got six Makita 18v Lithium-Ion batteries in Aug 2006 (along with the tools). I later added two more batteries. Used them every day for seven months, rebuilding homes damaged by Katrina on the Mississippi gulf coast. They've been to Mexico twice for three months at a time, getting a lot more daily use. Only the drill and impact driver get much use at home. One battery died after 2½ years, the second a few months later. The rest are still going strong nearly 40 months later. My prejudice is that any defective product will fail quickly with heavy use, but if a tool gets used lightly for a long time, you're really left wondering whether it's eventual failure is an anomaly or not. Maybe some others with Ryobi cordless tools will respond to your post.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

So is it better to just leave the batteries on a charging base than to leave them laying in the box?

Typically I have one in the drill and one in the charger so I can just run a rotation.. One dies, I swap it out for the fresh charge.. But then, this is with a 24v Nicad setup that I'd had for years.. Batteries are just getting to the point to where they don't hold quite as much charge as they did.

At any rate, was considering shelling out some $$$ to upgrade, but think I'll hold off for now.

[Jim Rimmer]

Typically I have one in the drill and one in the charger so I can just run a rotation.. One dies, I swap it out for the fresh charge..

This is what I do with my Lithiums. So I guessing I got a bad one and with no receipt and no proof of how long I've had it, I guess I'm pretty much out one battery. :(

[David Christopher]

Jim, I have 2 craftsman 19.2 lion batteries ( 2 years ) and I wouldnt have anything else....you must have got a bad one..dont give on the lion batteries, they are the best

[Mike Rees]

Actually its best to store a lithium ion battery at around 40% charge - keeping in mind the battery will lose charge at a rate of 5% per month that would mean you'd need to charge every 7 months or so before you hit 0.

Also, lithium ion batteries actually benefit from being stored in colder temperatures as the max charge the battery can take stays close to the original level the colder the temperature gets - all battery capacities degrade with time but Lithiums can delay the process a great deal by not storing them fully charged and in a warm environment. My basement is about 58 degrees right now, and I store them down there.

So, what does that mean to the layman who has no sophisticated battery charge measuring tools? Well, I don't have any of those tools either so I shoot for the best I can do. I charge them up, put them in the basement where its cold, and recharge them every 6 months if I'm not doing any project work.

Lithium batteries SHOULD last in the 3-4 year range, 5-7 for DeWalt Nanos.

Hope this helps somebody.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I have had a Ridgid 12volt LI drill for a little over a year now (16 months.) The second set of batteries are dying now. But with Ridgid's 3 year guarantee, and "Life Time Service Agreement," new batteries are just a matter of dropping drill, batteries, and charger at local service center and get new batteries. Takes about 2 weeks. I use this drill daily. The circuitry prevents battery from going below 40% charge. Drill just stops in it's tracks when that point is reached.

[Glen Butler]

The worst thing you can do for any battery is not use it. You should not blame the store for getting a bad battery. Don't take this harshly but, You killed it.

NiCad's are the most stable when it come to rebounding from neglect. They generally have less mAh and higher internal resistance and therefore less power than NiMh

NiMh need to be used regularly for them to stay at peak performance. They don't react well to being deep cycled, but they have a very low internal resistance and are found in more powerful drills. They usually have higher mAh's which means you can drill more and charge less often.

Li-Po and Li-Ion technology has come a long way and has far surpassed NiMh for power. But they do require some care. If they drop below 3.0V per cell, or if they are stored at a full charge 4.2V per cell they deteriorate. A lot of stupid people out there say to store them fully charged, don't believe them. Sorry I cannot place my source right now but I have spent hours reading technical data on Li-po technology. Like Mike said 40% even 50% of available mAh's is OK for storage. Basically they should be stored at 3.7V per cell.

[Lance Norris]

The Ryobi Li-ion batteries have a date code on the bottom. Its a letter and a 4 digit number. The number is year and week of manufacture. They also have protection circuitry to prevent low voltage cell failure. HTH

[Jim Rimmer]

The Ryobi Li-ion batteries have a date code on the bottom. Its a letter and a 4 digit number. The number is year and week of manufacture. They also have protection circuitry to prevent low voltage cell failure. HTH
Thanks, Lance. I'll check the date code on mine and maybe have a chance at the borg.

[Mike Wilkins]

I am beginning to wonder about the hype surrounding the LI batteries. I have a 18V Milwaukee and the batteries are dying. They will not hold a full charge for more than a few minutes, and stall easily. Got it new about 1 1/2 years ago. Despite the advantages (weight) I am thinking about going back to the old-fashioned NiCad units. My Dewalt 14 volt impact driver is older than the Milwaukee unit and it is still going strong. Maybe I should just go truly cordless and start using a bit and brace. Be a good workout.

[Mike Rees]

Just because it says Lithium Ion doesn't mean its formulated the same. I've been very disappointed with many of the cordless tools that Milwaukee is pushing out lately. So many so fast, no a lot of R&D going into them.

I've read nothing but good things about the DeWalt Nanos, and those that I know that use them daily in the field really appreciate the purchase.

[Jim Rimmer]

I haven't looked at the DeWalt Nanos but it brings up a question: If they will fit into another brand tool, is it OK to use them? I don't even know if they will fit.

[Mike Rees]

I haven't looked at the DeWalt Nanos but it brings up a question: If they will fit into another brand tool, is it OK to use them? I don't even know if they will fit.

Nope - the batteries should never be interchanged between manufacturers.

One of the big reasons I chose DeWalt besides for the Nano batteries is the interchangeability between there 18V tools going all the way back to 1996. That says a awful lot about the way the company views its products and its customers.

DeWalt/Bosch/Makita is like Ford/Chevy/Dodge. You will find diehards in any camp and each camp has something that is particularly better than the other. In my opinion, from a battery tech perspective, nothing beats the Nano formulation. The others adopted their battery tech from laptop formulations - DeWalt took longer getting into the fold because they went after a technology specifically for high draw applications.

[Glen Butler]

Problem with a lot of batteries these days is the fast charge. They make batteries that can be safely fast charged, but safe to you and safe to the battery are two different stories. Just because a battery can be safely fast charged without blowing up on you, does not mean it will last a long time.

[bill mullin]

I am beginning to wonder about the hype surrounding the LI batteries. I have a 18V Milwaukee and the batteries are dying. They will not hold a full charge for more than a few minutes, and stall easily. Got it new about 1 1/2 years ago. Despite the advantages (weight) I am thinking about going back to the old-fashioned NiCad units. My Dewalt 14 volt impact driver is older than the Milwaukee unit and it is still going strong. Maybe I should just go truly cordless and start using a bit and brace. Be a good workout.

The hype surrounding lithium batteries is all about light weight. Volts is volts and amps is amps; lithium offers both in a much lighter, albeit more expensive package.

I own and use regularly 5 battery drills, none of them lithium. So I have no experience with them. The reason for that is, I do have quite a bit of experience with lithium batts. in---model airplanes! Lithium has made it possible to power any size model with a comparable weight to power as any fuel power, and made it possible to make incredibly small models, some just a few grams in weight. But I have learned over a few years that lithium batteries are fragile, in terms of over charging and over discharging, and short life cycles.

I was in the market to buy a new drill a couple of years ago, and my dealer talked me out of a lithium. He said he was having a lot of returns on batteries, and didn't recommend them for hard use.

Having said that, the good news is that they are getting better all the time. New chemistries, like the nano-phosphates, offer faster charging and better discharge rates than previous ones.

As an example, the early lithium batteries were meant to be charged at a 1C rate. That means, if the capacity (amps) is, say, 2 amps, then it had to be charged at a maximum of 2 amp/hrs., so it could be charged in one hour. If they were charged at a higher rate, battery life was severely compromised, and could over heat and explode. I have seen new ones that can be charged at 5C. So the same 2 amp battery can be charged in 12 minutes!

I think lithium, right now, is a trade-off between light weight and longevity, but soon they will be the best choice.