Any advice on bowl shapes?

[Baxter Smith]

I am hoping for any constructive criticism on how to improve the shape of some bowls I am doing for Christmas presents. I know that this is subjective to some extent, but judging by the work I have seen on here, there are some very accomplished "eyes" out there!

I am somewhat controlled by the shape of the rough outs I am using (may be the least of my limitations) but I think I am starting to get to the point where I can change the shape a little.

Bowl 1 - just trying to survive
Bowl 2 - trying to smooth the inside and outside before I ran out of wood
Bowl 3 - 3rd times not always a charm
Bowl 4 - same deal as 2 but cut the foot down a little and trying to figure out why I keep running out of wood at the back of the mouth
Bowl 5 - almost ran out-then broke out the rest

After lining up and studying all 5 bowls it finally occurred to me that the angle of cut inwards from the tip of the beak was going to determine if I would have any bark left at the back of the mouth. That was a light bulb moment! Low wattage but at least its on.

Bowl 6 - hey that worked! and removed the foot
Bowl 7 - it even worked twice and changed the shape of the bottom a little

I have thought about trying a curved line straight to the table next, or removing all the bark and tring to go with a perimeter of just sapwood. I still have some to do so any suggestions or even just a bowl number for what you like or don't bother to repeat would be fine.

Thanks for your time,

Baxter

[Dennis Ford]

By doing several of the same design with slightly different shapes and studying the results, you are well on your way to answering your own question.

"shapes_015" is my favorite by far, my only suggestion is that the foot could be a little shorter and/or slightly curved. Some of the others look you fell into the trap of trying to make the bowl hold a large volume. I usually turn natural edge bowls to final thickness while wet, eliminates one restriction on shape and yields a better chance of keeping the bark. You may or may not like the distortion from that method.

[alex carey]

Aesthetically it looks better if both wings are the same size, that means you have to adjust it in the beginning so it ends up that way. Looks like you started doing that on the last two bowls.

Form is always tough, especially when you first start out, if I am doing a new type of piece I generally look at everyone's else's similar work and see what I think looks good and doesn't look good and go from there.

[charlie knighton]

look in some antique pottery books, you need different styles (could be me) for people to look at, if all are the same style and same wood....

[Richard Madison]

Big improvement to get to the last two Baxter. Just one more thing to try. Continue the curvature of the sides all the way to the bottom, and then radius the bottom edge into the bottom of the piece. The radius at the bottom edge will give the piece "lift" without use of a foot. Try one and see what you think. Might not like it, but you never know.

[Keith Harrell]

I'm to much of a beginner to offer suggestions but I like the last one with a smaller or not so tall foot.
One thing that hit me this week was that I was making the tenon(foot) to big because it was wet wood and I thought I needed a bigger foot to hold the piece. This seemed to create the beginner U shaped bowls because I always made the curve radius to fit the the big foot size. I make smaller tenons and try to make the radius go beyond the foot. Work is still in progress on this.
Thanks for taking the pictures and letting us see your progress. I learned something today from it.

[David E Keller]

I'm not an expert, but you asked... I don't like bowls with feet for the most part. At least, I don't like traditional feet because they remind me of the tenon used to hollow the bowl.

Your last two forms are more appealing to me, but personally, I would like to see a more narrow foot... something that tapers down considerably smaller. That would visually elevate the bowl.

The other thing that stands out to me, especially in the first five, it the loss of the curve near the rim of the form. You have a curve at the bottom and then relatively straight sides near the rim. There's nothing wrong with that, but I generally prefer a more continuous curvature.

I struggle with form every time I turn something. Really, once you learn how to use the tools, most everything else is form. Beautiful wood with a "perfect" finish but an unappealing form is worse than average wood, no finish, and a "perfect" form. That's my two cents.

Thanks for posting, and keep up the good work.

[Wally Dickerman]

The first piece has the best form of all. Mostly because it has the best continuing curve from top to bottom. The curve on the last ones disappear as they go toward the top. Just flattens out. A curved surface is more appealing to the eye than a flat one. The feet on the last couple are too wide. The 1/3 rule is a good one to improve form.

The next time that you try one of this type NE bowl I suggest that you make the foot just a little taller and make it a dovetail foot. Goes well with this kind of vessel. The curve will be just a little bit longer which would add to it's appeal. You can even make the sides of the foot curve inward just a little. Often it's the little things that "make" a piece.

Wally

[Thom Sturgill]

Mike Mahoney shows a method of evening the sides of natural edged bowls in his DVD Bowl Basics. Most like the even appearance, though I have gotten good response to one where the highest point is placed to the back and the sides are nearly even and the front is the lowest point. I set it to be viewed from the lowest point forward so the viewer sees both the inside and outside. Not particularly practical as a working bowl, but then neither is bark!

Try to make the foot as small as you can, and keep your curves smooth and continuous. A little thin CA glue along the edge of the bark as soon as you finish shaping the outside will help keep it on, but will show with some woods (maple). Alternatively apply some sealer and let it soak in to stabilize the area. Cutting from the outside towards the center at the bark will help too, Think about pushing the bark down, not lifting it up. Mike shows that in his DVD too.

[Thomas Canfield]

I suggest you try using a jam chuck with rubber shelf lining to mount the turned bowl using the tail stock with live center. You can then remove the tenon or change its shape leaving only a small section to remove with chisel and sand the stem. You can end up with a rounded bottom or flat with raised center. The jam chuck only needs a contour surface for the rubber to fit and not be a force fit. I finished 4 bowls today ranging from 7" to 10" with a 6" MDF piece with tap to fit drive, going with a rounded or flat bottom and recess in center. Removing the tenon and sanding the bottom took about 15 min per bowl. I used a bowl gouge to remove the majority of the tenon and then used a spindle gouge to shape the recess and take stem down to about 1/4". A word of caution - reduce speed and lower speed as the stem diameter gets smaller or too much pressure can crack the bottom if it is thin.

[Baxter Smith]

Thank you all very much for your responses! I have been checking back in during the day to read and reread what you had to say but wanted to wait until the end of the day to reply. I have 18 minutes left to do that! I doubt I will make it.

I should add that I just finished watching 4 straight hours of the Bill Grumbine bowl turning DVD's that arrived today. Steve Schlumpf's reccomendation when I first asked a question about turning these live edge bowls in a similar post was to wait until I watched the DVD's to start. If you ever read this Steve, you were right! But I still had a lot of fun playing this weekend!:) Now back to your comments.!

Dennis - I know what you mean about the volume of the bowls. They do suffer from "paunchiness". I don't know if that exists but I get your point. Many of the roughed out bowls I am turning are very much like that to begin with. Only after getting to the last couple of bowls and not particularly liking some of the previous ones did I get up the nerve to try and change things. The one I did first and the one you liked probably just happened to be roughed out more along those lines.


Alex - I understand your thinking about the balanced wings. That was also mentioned in the DVD I just watched. I didn't try to balance the last two! The roughout just came that way. I have just been putting the tailstock into the existing hole. There are a couple left that are slightly uneven. I may try to move the center slightly to better line thetips up. The roughouts are only about a half inch thick at the top to maybe 3/4 at the base so I don't know how much wiggle room I have but I may give it a shot!

Charlie - I know there wasn't much variation. Especially when I lined them up like I did! Somewhat boring but I guess that says something about my need to ask the question I did!:) The reason for the same wood was because they all came from the same tree. A butternut my father planted then later cut. They were roughed out almost 20 years ago by a close family friend whose lathe I am now attempting to turn them on. You are right about the pottery and classic styles. These haven't quite made it to the timeless category!

Richard - I will give your suggestion a try if I understand it correctly. Only one smooth curve from the top, like a stretched out like a C, where you can't see where the flat bottom starts?

Keith - I preferred the shorter foot as well. I'm glad you learned something too!

David - I kept the foot to begin with because I was attempting to copy one partly finished/or perhaps a rejected one of the man that originally did these. I think that with the right shape, a smaller lower foot would be more pleasing, for the others its probaly better without. I can see your point about lack of curvature at the top. I will try to adjust that if I can.

Wally - I agree about the fat base of the last two. Never thought of a taller dovetail shape foot. More like a flower vase perhaps?

Just a clarification my use of the term foot". The outside shape was turned with a friction drive and the base in a livecenter. They all had a turned tenon that I used to hold them with when I turned the inside with a Nova chuck. I am referring to that tenon as the foot. Sometimes I turned it smaller, sometimes I made it shorter, and in the last two I just turned it off. So in those cases, I don't really think of it as having the foot/tenon left. I am lacking when it comes to terminology about bowls. Among other things! If I leave that tenon or foot as I am calling it at the moment, should it meet the bowl at a right angle or curve into it when finishing it off? Unless I try the taller dovetail look.

Thom - Interesting point about the alignment of front and back for display purposes. I have been lucky with this bark as it seems to have a very good grip and its not too thick. I was pushing in when working on the inside but know I was pushing the bark out on the outside. Should both be an inward cut? I tried to frequently sharpen whenever I got around the edge and it was getting thin.

Thomas - Judging by what you were describing, that is the way I was doing it. The first few had a tenon that was left at a lot more than 1/4 of an inch to chisel off! I could just visualize about 4 hours of work spinning off into space. A lot of that time was spent trying to sand those spinning wings both inside and out. Needless to say I didn't get too far too fast! I had to laugh when I saw Bill Grumbine take his off the lathe to sand the wings. After the first 4 or 5 bowls I got tired of the extra hour or so stopped the lathe and went through the grits by hand. 80, 120,150,220,400,800. Think I even threw 600 in there until I ran of that one.

I want to thank all of you again for your time and advice. I will try and post some pictures of it being put to use over the next few days.

Baxter

And if anyone has posted a comment during the last hour plus, thanks to you too!

[Bob Hallowell]

I think you are doing just fine, I myself don't like seeing the tennon. I either remove it or hollow out the center of the tennon and then carve feet on the bottom which would look nice on these bowls.

Bob

[Roger Wilson]

I am hoping for any constructive criticism on how to improve the shape of some bowls I am doing for Christmas presents.


This may not help you this minute but Richard Raffan has an older book with a number of pattern outlines and discussion of shape etc. Very good little book.


Turned-Bowl Design (Paperback)


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51khvfSLgzL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[Steve Schlumpf]

Baxter - I'm sure you have noticed that the one common theme with regards to form is that of the continuous curve. That really leaves a lot up to the turner as far as interpretation - which is a good thing! You probably have also noticed that with 10 turners making suggestions - you now have 15 different directions in which to go!

You are just starting out turning - so, play a little! Find out if you like your bowls with a foot, without, high sided or low and wide. It's all good and it's all learning! Heck, Wally has been turning more than any three of us put together and I bet he still likes to vary the curves on his bowls and hollow forms! How boring it would all be if we all did the same thing!

Have fun with your experimentation! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with next!