Something you might not know...

[Harold Burrell]

After rereading another thread where somebody was kind of "scolded" for asking a question and not googling it himself, it got me to thinking (as well as a little soul-searching, if you will...)

I wonder if you all know just how cool this place is. I know...everybody seems to enjoy themselves here...exchanging ideas, getting advice on tools etc, sharing info and pics on our projects. It is just oh so cool to have a place like this where folks can "mingle" that have the same interest and passions.

It is also nice to be able to go some place where my "tool lust" is understood...:o

I know...you all know these things...that's why you keep coming back.

But...what you might not know...or you might have forgotten...is this:

I wonder if you know just how invaluable this place is to us newbies. I never had a "wood shop" in school. My dad passed away when I was a kid. Good grief...I'm 50 now and I've never built anything in my life until these last couple of years.

A couple of years ago, my son-in-law took me out and bought me a circular saw and a miter saw (both Ryobi's). I built my wife a larger window sill in the kitchen. It was basically a board...with a finish.

She loved it.

And I was hooked.

I built her a vegetable bin. I built somebody in my church a chimney cupboard. I made my daughter a breadbox. And...I recently made my wife a HUGE oak dresser.

I know that everybody here knows the thrill and pride you feel when you present that "thing" (whatever it is) that you have spent hundreds of hours on to "whoever" and see their faces light up and hear them say "thank you".

Man...it doesn't get much better than that...

But you also know what it's like to stand back yourself and say..."I built that." (I hope I never get over that feeling.)

But...seriously...I can never take all of the credit. Much of it goes to you here. All of you.

Thank you for taking the time out of your busy lives to teach us...to motivate us...to inspire us...and even to answer our stupid questions. I honestly don't think I could do this with out you.

Oh...and...one more thing...

I'm going to let you experienced guys in on a little of what goes on in the mind of a newbie (well, this newbie anyway...)

Have you ever walked into a room full of really smart, experienced guys talking about something that you so very much want to learn more about??? And all these guys a caught up in various conversations and they barely notice you've come in...yet you so want to be part of the conversation...so you ask them something simple (to the smart guys anyway) since it is all you know to ask?

Sure...you could have gone home and looked it up yourself...but you just wanted to be part of the "conversation".

Well...that's kind of the way I feel here sometimes.

And so I want to thank you all for your patience with me (and others) when we ask "less than brilliant" questions. :o

Ahem...this is getting a tad too "mushy" here...think I'll make some sawdust.

[Brian Kent]

Yes, yes, and yes to all that you said.

Almost always when we ask simple questions, we do get help without "scolding" here. This is my woodshop class.

Brian

[Gary Muto]

I couldn't agree more or have said it any better. I just used this site to help me make a decision on a dado set. It was fun and informative. I didn't and would not have posted that question at any other site.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Wonderfully said, Harold. I couldn't agree more fully...

[Aaron Berk]

Well said.

I'm still a new kid on the block too. Although I'm barely 30 yrs I too never had a shop class, and even though my Dad was extremely handy (even had woodwork featured in popular mechanics) I had an older brother who was Dads boy. So I'm 100% self taught.

I've seen the comments that you hint of Harold, and I too am a bit amazed at the brashness of some.
But like a drug I keep coming back here.
The kindness of many far out weighs the harshness of the few.

What you said was a good piece.

Aaron

[Bill Arnold]

Excellent post, Harold!

I have a fair amount of experience but come to this and other forums to get answers to my questions and to help where I can. I think we sometimes steer a newbie to the archives because there's such a wealth of information already available.

[Dennis McGarry]

Here Here!

Couldnt have said it better myself, Here is a copy of a reponse I made on another forum dealing with basicly the same thing...

The problem with the search function here or anywhere is its process for searching.

They underlying methods are not geared for the avg joe, but more tech savvy users. Hench the billion dollar search engine wars.. :)

It isn't so much as using the search but knowing how to phrase the question or search terms to get the best results.

Using something general like ca and bushings will get you to the answer but you will have to read through a wealth of other posts as well. True there might be some great info them but more often then not, one does not have the time to read that much hoping for a answer.

We are woodworkers and pen makers not tech gurus, (well most anyway :) )

I like seeing new questions on the same topic, more often then not someone might have had a newer solution to the problem then a old post will give. Keeps the board fresh and fluid.

I do search myself and have a complete set of bookmarks for posts that may come in handy at a later time

[Keith Outten]

Don't be alarmed by the occasional brash remark here. The majority of the woodworkers here are friendly and will go out of their way to help anyone who asks for assistance.

We do have new people who register here every day and it often takes them a little while to get used to the friendly atmosphere and adjust to our Community. Most get the picture pretty quick, some get a little help adjusting from our Moderators and there is a very small group that I have to show them the door. Unfriendly people aren't welcome here, there are plenty of unfriendly places for them to gather.

It's true the built-in search utility here leaves a lot to be desired. The good news is that it will be improved, possibly the upcoming vBullietin version 4 will be better, we shall see.
We try to keep up with all of the threads and posts here the best we can, but the Members of this Community could help us by posting in the proper places which really makes a difference to those who use our archives. Creating time sensitive threads in the General Woodworking Forum is one area that is abused and causes problems. Three years from now when you are searching for information about a particular tool or technique you probably would appreciate not having to wade through pages of threads about woodworking events from 2007 and announcements about meetings that happened long ago.
.

[Harold Burrell]

Don't be alarmed by the occasional brash remark here. The majority of the woodworkers here are friendly and will go out of their way to help anyone who asks for assistance.

We do have new people who register here every day and it often takes them a little while to get used to the friendly atmosphere and adjust to our Community. Most get the picture pretty quick, some get a little help adjusting from our Moderators and there is a very small group that I have to show them the door. Unfriendly people aren't welcome here, there are plenty of unfriendly places for them to gather.
.

Oh, I for one don't really take offense to the occassional "brash remark". I realize that sometimes (as in, often) posts can be misread when it comes to supposed and presumed intent. I also realize that people do indeed have "bad days".

And...to be quite honest with you...I realize that I do indeed need to be "scolded" from time to time. Or reminded, if you will, to look stuff up on my own.

But, it is just so much more fun to hang with the guys at SMC.

Thanks, Keith, for all you do here.

[Gary Herrmann]

Excellent post, Harrold. Well said and well timed for the season.

[Keith Christopher]

Harold,

True words have not been spoken. I've been a member here for almost 6 YEARS and I've been wood working for my whole life and I still get amazed by what there is to learn and the creativity of the folks here. I've been on other msg boards but this is the one I stuck with. such a range of expertise. I personally enjoy helping with ideas where I can and this is the place that allows that to happen. Great folks and excellent moderators/owners. But truly the most heated debates I've seen here always end up being over safety. And I think that's a good thing.

Wishing everyone a safe and happy holiday season, in and out of the shop.

Keith

[Eric Sayre]

This is an excellent point, Harold, and thank you for bringing it up.

I want to bring up a point that I have noticed since belonging to this forum:

I belong to (and visit) many other forums, most of which are not related to woodworking. The brashness and impatience within the woodworking community, however, is relatively nonexistent when compared to the general internet public. It happens, but rarely.

That is what gives this forum such strength in character. The strong characters! This is the company I like to keep!

-Eric

[Brian Kent]

Ironically, when I google my woodworking questions, Sawmill Creek ends up in many of the search results.

[Dan Forman]

Harold---Great post. I found myself in a similar situation a few years ago, starting up cold, have found this site to be my most valuable reference. I suspect that there are many of us in basically the same boat. Hey, who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

I've asked my share of questions (as the helpful folks in the turning forum can attest), and have also spent lots of time searching, and learned lots both ways. I also try to answer those of others when I can.

In my experience, most of the references to the search function are phrased as simple reminders that the function exists, rather than scolding the questioner. As such, it can be as valuable a response as giving the answer, especially when the appropriate search terms are suggested.

As Dennis pointed out, sometimes the subject doesn't lend itself very well to a search, such as three letter words or abbreviations, which "search" doesn't recognize, or very general terms which would bring up a flood of non-relevant topics. I wonder how many times the question has been asked here "what is BLO?" The answer: boiled linseed oil.

I don't know which post you referred to, or what was in the mind of the responder, but would suggest that there are always more than one way of looking at a situation, and in my better moments, I try to find the one that gives the benefit of the doubt to the "other". Maybe he didn't know the answer himself, or knew that someone else had given a better, more concise answer than he could, but didn't have time to search for it himself and provide a link for you. Or maybe is just one of those folks who thinks it's better to teach a man to fish. In any of those scenarios, he was trying to be helpful. Of course on the other hand, he might just be an ornery curmudgeon, but at least here, they are very few. :D

Regardless, you post is an excellent reminder to the grizzled veterans of the site about what it's like to first discover this hobby and this site, and finding your place in each.

Dan

[James G. McQueen]

I,ve been coming on to the site for about a month now and truly enjoy reading the question and answers. I own a small specialty lumber company and serve my local COMMUNITY. Community being the key. I love dealing with most of the people coming in to the shop( The odd one is unpleasant to deal with but few and far between). I can relate to the community atmosphere and it makes my business much more enjoyable. My customers may not realize it but they have been my teachers. They have taught me many tricks and made me the go to guy when people need to find answers. After 15 years I still have a a great passion for woodworking. Community has helped me drive this passion and made me what I am today. I wish I could thank them all.

The only silly question is the one not asked. When you ask a Question
remember that you are not necessarily the only looking for the answer. Keep them rolling because none of us knows everything and there is no end to learning. If your forgetful ( like I am occasionally) it's nice to be reminded of something that may have been misplaced in your memory.

You gotta love the saw dust and slivers! Take care everyone.

[Bob Borzelleri]

This "look it up yourself" (or words to that effect) response is a pretty common phenomenon on virtually every forum I frequent. While I think that many of those responses come from folks who honestly think they need to inform the OP of the usefulness of the search function or perhaps that closely guarded secret, Google, it's a fact of life that some folks sometimes succumb to the "Gotcha" opportunities that every so often crop up in life.

I think there is never a justification for anyone to tell someone to "look it up" on a forum that deals with something as complex as how or what to do in the world of woodworking and here's why; things change.

Being no stranger to the search functions and Google, I would point out that what they search out is what has been said in the past. Yes, it might be in the immediate past as in yesterday or this morning, but nonetheless, it's from the past and maybe the folks who weighed in on the subject back then didn't cover something that might be important for the particular aspect of the issue that someone might be told to search it out yourself.

I make it a point to never "school" someone on something that I think they already know anyway. I take it for granted that what they have done to date to gather information has left them wanting more info and, if I have it available, I offer it.

And, Harold's point about wanting to be a part of the conversation is really the primary reason why those who feel obligated to "scold" might be better served by telling what they know about the issue or simply moving right along.

[John Coloccia]

If I wanted to read about it, I'd use Google, or buy a book. I come here to talk woodworking with people from all around the world, most of whom I would never have an opportunity to interact with otherwise. If I start a thread on a topic that someone's already talked about, well that's the way it goes. *I* haven't talked about it and I want to. It's really as simple as that. I don't think the goal of the creek is to become woodworking Wiki. :D

[David Prince]

Some people probably just need to remember what it was like being young. We all had questions when we were kids. If you have kids, think of their questions. Are you going to always scold them or use their questions as an opportunity to teach? I am not trying to say that SMC posters are kids, but woodworking is a learning and growing process. One which we never reach true "old age" because there is always new things to learn. We may became "seasoned" and have some experience under our belts, but we can always learn. A new woodworker doesn't have the "seasoning" under his or her belt. If you answer your kid's question in the wrong way, it could cause them to steer away from that subject in the future. I would hate to see someone turn away from woodworking because they were made to feel stupid for asking a question. Ask your questions! If someone uses a harsh tone, blow them off and learn from those that really want to help and share their experience. Teaching is "sharing your experience". (even if you didn't think you were a teacher)

[Peter Quinn]

Nice post Harold. Nice place here too, I agree. Some of the boards on the net are shockingly abrasive and abusive. If I wanted that type of treatment I could go to a family reunion!:D

I must admit that on a few occasions I have responded to a post with some suggestions for search terms. Typically in these cases either I don't have the time or mental focus to try to express in fresh words what I know has been covered better else where, and the topic is a question more of fact or research and I am genuinely trying to point the OP in a direction for pursuing that research. I can remember an advisor in grad school pushing students in new directions by recommend search terms or key books on a given subject rather than espousing his own feelings on a given subject. It has its place.

I have seen some posts that basically amount to what looks to me like an angry "Why don't you go look it up and stop wasting my time". That seems vastly inappropriate to me, silence would be a better response, and now that I'm thinking about it I hope none of my posts have been interpreted that way as it was certainly never my intention.

Anyway thanks for your heart warming post.

[Mike Cruz]

On that note, I am more likely to jump to the defence of someone who is getting given a hard time than I would be to get upset about someone making a direct stab at me. And I have taken some stabs... I usually just PM the person with a Wassup With That... and get on with my day. I love this community. And security here is the only thing that will make you comfortable sharing your thoughts and experiences. I'm glad to be a part of it. I felt welcome the first day I joined.

I'll take this opportunity to appologize for taking that a little too far lately when one of our Creek brothers was taking some blows. I should have handled it better. Not publicly. a

[Paul Saffold]

Very, very well said, Harold. This is the shop class I never had. I'm amazed and thankful to all those who share their knowledge and experience so freely and patiently. Paul

[John Keeton]

Great thread, and I appreciate Harold's initiative in starting it! There is a gold mine of experience and knowledge in this community, and nearly everyone I have dealt with here has been genuine and supportive.

I would comment on the search function. As Keith noted, it is helpful, but not the best. When I need to search SMC, I use a Google advanced search and search only the domain sawmillcreek.org. It is a much quicker and easier process to find what you need.

[Jim Koepke]

Great post Harold.

I know I am guilty of suggesting people use the search, mostly only to those named Luke. I guess it is kind of a Star Wars thing that makes me laugh.

I too owe a lot of knowledge to the folks here and try to keep my patience with the "new" question that has been asked a thousand times. In those cases, I feel it is best to try to answer the questions as others did when it was me asking the same question for the thousandth time.

As long as we can learn, we are still alive.

jim

[Roger Pozzi]

Very well put Harold!!
I remember reading the "Google" post you mentioned and thought about it the same way you did.
Google is the reason I ended up here in the first place. I Googled my question and the greatest number of suggested sites was this forum.
So, I cut out the middleman and joined this forum for the most accurate and up-to-date information available on the web.
Thanks for your post reminding everyone just why this is such a great site.

[Philip Johnson]

Great post Harold....and if everyone used the search and found what they were looking for there would be no new posts and no reason to get up in the morning and run over turn then puter on and see whats new. I always feel if you can,t add something positive to a post just move along to the next one.

Phil

[Mike Cruz]

That is exactly how I found the Creek... and why I joined. Every time I Googled something about woodworking or equipment, SMC came up. Love this place.

[Byron Trantham]

Kudos Harold!

I have been using Sawmill Creek for years. Yep its my "go to" source for both dumb and not so dumb questions. Once in awhile I get to actually contribute something worthwhile. :D That's when I really feel good. None of the grouches out there bother me. I think that for the most part, typing a question or asking a question sometimes gets lost in the true meaning of the question or answer.

[Al Willits]

Good post, Telling someone to google something is inviting disaster.
Things I've learnt from being online....

Its ok to cut a 4x8 sheet of plywood on a table saw with out a fence or guide if your careful. (something every newbie should try at least once)

Gas powered chain saws are ok to use with out ear protection if you run them in short spurts instead of one long time.

Reloading specs on a certain caliber of pistol are ok for starting points, adding 15 to 25% is common in hunting loads.

Jumering safety devices on your furnace are ok to just get ya by till ya can afford repairs.

List goes on....

Until a bit of web savy is gained and the realization there are some real nut cases on the web, the newbie is kinda wandering around hopelessly lost.

imho telling a newbie or anybody to go look at the web and adding a web site to start at, would help the most.

This forum is pretty good about stuff like that, some have people who get darn right hostile and the mods let it go.

Al

[Don Morris]

I used to go between several woodworking forums. But after a short while, Sawmillcreek is the only one I look at. At least in my case, no one has ever been unkind to me. Just the opposite, even when it's obvious I don't know the subject very well. Thank you Creekers for just being great people. I support Sawmillcreek through a modest donation because of the great help you guys and gals freely give. Which reminds me. It's end of the year coming up, and time to donate again. If I recommend a "search", usually, I've done a search using the wording myself first because I know the search function isn't perfect, but sometimes very helpful. Whenever I make a mistake and tell my LOML, the first thing she says is "Did you ask the guys on Sawmillcreek about that before you started...". Thanks for giving me help before, and bailing me out afterwards without being harsh about it.

[Bill White]

Years ago (and in a far away land), an old guy told me sompin' I've never forgotten. He said, "Son, remember that you can always learn somethin' from every person you meet".
I've tried to live by that, and I've tried to share what little I know whith those who ask.
Bill