How Much Neanderthal Is Too Much?

[Jared McMahon]

As very brief background, I'm a beginning woodworker doing work in my garage, which has very limited power. After a while of back and forth with my home owners association about improving my garage, I figured bah, fooey on this, I'll just go pure hand tools. And this is what I've begun to do, and I've had limited yet encouraging results so far.

However, I've started to come across tasks that, to abuse a quote, are "a lot like working." Some things I try come out beautifully, some things just create a rough crooked line and a lot of sweat. Some of this is definitely lack of practice, good technique, well-maintained tools, and the right tool for the right job, all of which I'm actively working on. But I wanted to ask where y'all draw the line in terms of neander'ing. How many people actually work entirely unplugged? And what tasks make you say "Oh god no, I'd never do that with just hand tools!" ?

[Michael Faurot]

For me, it depends on the size/scale of the project. The smaller it is, then the majority (or all) of it will be done with hand tools. For larger projects, I will use my powered planer to dimension rough lumber and a table saw for ripping, and then switch over to hand tools.

So lately, I do a lot of smaller projects. ;)

[Mike Henderson]

IMO, the grunt work of hand tools is stock preparation. If you're doing a large project, it will take a lot of time and sweat to get your stock prepared for the project.

So I use power tools for stock preparation. I'll even take my wood to another shop to do the preparation since I don't have a jointer and only have a 13" planer in my shop. Then, I'll rip the wood on my table saw.

Once I have all the stock prepared, I'll generally do most of the joinery with hand tools. It's mostly precise work and not sweat, and it's enjoyable.

Mike

[Don Morris]

Jared,

First, know that I was in this forum because I had asked a question of the pros here because I'm not a "absolutely 100% true" Neander. I love to see shavings you can read through, but it's a mix. I don't do hand made dove tails. My machined dove tails come out beautifully and usually when I'm doing them, I need to do so many that it's faster. When I pick up a handplane, I pick it up because to set up a machine would have taken me longer, and so on. Sometimes a handmade feature looks more classic, professional, high end, and I like that. i.e. pinned joints with different colored woods. I recently bought a rather high end piece of furniture: "Stickley". Guess what...after looking at some of the joinery, there were some joints made by the pocket hole technique. Some of the other joints were the classic hand made joints. It depends...if I'm doing a grandson desk for posterity...classic technique and hopefully he'll appreciate it someday. Simple bird stand for the yard...circular saw and screws. At my age, rather advanced, I haven't got time to spare diddling around learning techniques that a well tuned machine can get me to with ease. But as I said...I love the smell of thin shavings, and there is that sense of satisfaction that a time honored tradition brings. Thus for me...it depends.

[harry strasil]

I go completely Neander for demos, and use almost all woody planes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/HNM1.jpg

but in my basement shop its about half and half, stock prep is by a shopmade tablesaw and a delta 12" lunchbox planer. I use a router in one side of my tablesaw table. But all dovetails are handcut. I work out of another tool chest with transitional planes in the basement shop.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/Bbox02.jpg

I am currently making 20 barrister bookcase doors 23 by 14.25 for my dining room library along one wall out of 100+ yr old pine shelving from a clothing store basement. There will be a 47 inch alcove in the center that will be a place to store the 70 by 40 gateleg shaker style fold up table made out of the same material.

[David Gendron]

Jared, I started a year ago 100% neander, thinking that sooner than later i would move to a bigger shop and have a lot of $$$ to buy all the corded tools to do all the work... So it's been over a year now and I did move to a bigger shop( from a 10x10 to 12x12 room in the basement) but no gorded tools appeared over night and I'm glad. I've been anjoying every seconds of my time in the shop and on top of that I wish to kind of make a living out of it. I will be having a piece in a gallery in January for a Fine woodworking exibit in my area... And working on two comissions in the meen time!
So IMO, it's up to you to decide where you will draw your line! I think as long as you have fun and it doesn't become "work" then you are doing fine!

[Jim Koepke]

Jared,

Welcome to the Creek.

In my shop, there are only a few electron twirling tools, band saw, lathe, power drill and drill press. There is also a router that I have not used in close to two years.

My current main project is making pencil cases for a half dozen grandchildren. It is a bit of work to use a plow plane to make the interior, but it is also an enjoyment and good exercise. When they are done, there will be pictures of them and the progression of making them. Nothing fancy, but the only power tool used will be my wimpy 10 inch band saw to rip the 1X12 down to 1X5.

jim

[Bruce Haugen]

I hate homeowners' associations, and I'm cantankerous enough that I'd never live where I had to abide by my neighbors' rules. That being said, we all do to some degree, so you learn to do what you can within those limits.

A line I picked up in your post says, "some things just create a rough crooked line and a lot of sweat." I've never learned a thing from something I was able to do right the first time. The best lessons are those that are taught by the need to overcome a problem. You learn to cut better, plane straighter and squarer, measure more accurately and design more efficiently. The true beauty of a total handtool approach is that you can do it any time, day or night, neighbors can go to heck. It might take more time, but if it allows you to live within the limits imposed on you, then it does. At least you get to make stuff, which is the most important thing. And some day, you can open your garage doors and someone will gawk and exclaim "you made that by hand?" and it will all be worth it.

When it comes time to pick up power tools, you'll have a much better foundation to use them, having gained valuable skills from hand tools first.

BTW, the quietest (IMHO) power tool you can get is a bandsaw, which you could probably use without your neighbors knowing at all. It's not called a neanderbuddy for nothing.

Bruce

[Richard Magbanua]

Jared,
You've got some great responses so far; this is typical of the 'creek.
As for myself, I started my woodworking ten years ago. I had not intended on building furniture but needed to save money on home improvement projects in my first house. This began my confidence in making things with power tools, cheap ones at least. Enter Norm Abram. He showed me, and millions of other interested people, that you could indeed build anything as long as you had the right tool for the job. That started my love affair with tools which continues today.
I am for the moment a hybrid woodworker. Enter Chris Schwarz. I freely use power tools to dimension lumber, moving to hand tools for most joinery. I have dimensioned stock by hand and intend on increasing that as I gain experience -and a jointer plane. But for me and my situation -involved dad, attentive husband, full time career -I only get a couple hours here and there to woodwork. Because of that, machines are still very good friends of mine. I think of them as my apprentices.
It does seem that I am moving toward more and more toward neanderism. But at this point I am not sure if that is because of a need to understand and master it, or if it is because of change in principle or some type of lifestyle statement. I do know that I really enjoy certain aspects of hand tool work very much. Hand sawing (got a thing for back saws right now), hand planes of course and sharp chisels -give me a lot of personal satisfaction. But I still Love my table saw and have no plans on getting rid of it! And, as long as I have home improvements on the list, I'll never get rid of my miter saw. I did start blogging about my projects and concentrate a lot on hand tools, but I feel there is a greater need for that information to be presented out there.
I guess I feel that regardless of your location in the power-neander scale, the finished product in terms of craftsmanship and design should be the ultimate goal. My interesting find is that hand tools are an integral part of that.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Jared,

I do it 100% with hand tools. From rough sawn stock from the lumber yard to finished project. But I enjoy performing every step along the way with hand tools.

To answer your question, "How Much Neanderthal Is Too Much?"

When it's no longer fun for you anymore, it's too much.

[Sean Hughto]

I agree about the bandsaw. If you are going to get any power tool, that's the one. A 14" with a riser block to give it 12" of resaw capcity is a pretty good minimum spec (taller resaw capacity would always be nice).

Resawing and ripping are the two operations that would get particularly old on any project of decent size. A bandsaw can do both.

The other thing many dislike is flattening/truing/ and thicknessing boards with hand planes alone. This, while slower without electrons, and a decent workout, I personally have come to enjoy.

[Richard Magbanua]

Jared,

I do it 100% with hand tools. From rough sawn stock from the lumber yard to finished project. But I enjoy performing every step along the way with hand tools.

To answer your question, "How Much Neanderthal Is Too Much?"

When it's no longer fun for you anymore, it's too much.

That is definitely great advice Robert! I agree. It should be enjoyable and rewarding on some level.

Looking back at the few times I've hand-flattend panels, it was actually the drudgery of using and listening to the planer while in a cold barn that led me to the warmth of the cottage workshop and quiet peace of hand planed shavings. Along with great music and a good beer it was a lot of fun!

(don't worry, with me beer and power tools never mix!)

[Zach England]

I go completely Neander for demos, and use almost all woody planes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/HNM1.jpg

but in my basement shop its about half and half, stock prep is by a shopmade tablesaw and a delta 12" lunchbox planer. I use a router in one side of my tablesaw table. But all dovetails are handcut. I work out of another tool chest with transitional planes in the basement shop.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/Bbox02.jpg

I am currently making 20 barrister bookcase doors 23 by 14.25 for my dining room library along one wall out of 100+ yr old pine shelving from a clothing store basement. There will be a 47 inch alcove in the center that will be a place to store the 70 by 40 gateleg shaker style fold up table made out of the same material.

"shop-made tablesaw"? WTF? How does one "make" a table saw? Can you post a picture of this contraption? I'd love to know more about it.

[Zach England]

As very brief background, I'm a beginning woodworker doing work in my garage, which has very limited power. After a while of back and forth with my home owners association about improving my garage, I figured bah, fooey on this, I'll just go pure hand tools. And this is what I've begun to do, and I've had limited yet encouraging results so far.

However, I've started to come across tasks that, to abuse a quote, are "a lot like working." Some things I try come out beautifully, some things just create a rough crooked line and a lot of sweat. Some of this is definitely lack of practice, good technique, well-maintained tools, and the right tool for the right job, all of which I'm actively working on. But I wanted to ask where y'all draw the line in terms of neander'ing. How many people actually work entirely unplugged? And what tasks make you say "Oh god no, I'd never do that with just hand tools!" ?

What kind of HOA doesn't let you alter the electrical system of your own home?

[Mike Henderson]

Some areas have restrictions that you must be able to put at least one car in your garage at night. I've never heard of CC&Rs that limit what you can do inside your house. All of the restrictions have to do with things that would affect your neighbors, such as noise, dust, dirt, and visual eyesores, such as parking commercial trucks or campers in the neighborhood, etc.

But maybe his area is different.

Mike

[And for those people who dislike HOAs. Remember that someone agrees to the CC&Rs when they buy the property. If you don't like the CC&Rs, don't buy the property. And if you do buy the property, abide by the CC&Rs.]

[Zach England]

It's good I don't live in a HOA. They probably would not like that I keep chickens on less than 1/10 acre.

[Don C Peterson]

"shop-made tablesaw"? WTF? How does one "make" a table saw? Can you post a picture of this contraption? I'd love to know more about it.

LOL, if you knew Jr. you wouldn't be so shocked...

[Zach England]

LOL, if you knew Jr. you wouldn't be so shocked...

I saw in a woodworking book these contraptions that were apparently sold in the 70s in which you mounted a circular saw upside down to make a table saw. They looked frighteningly unsafe.

[Jared McMahon]

Thanks all for providing me with some context and opinions, it's helpful. I'm definitely going to push ahead doing as much as I can with hand tools but having a bandsaw for dimensioning sounds really appealing. Even my current circuit could safely handle something like a Grizzly G0555. It's fast becoming clear that I need a real workbench, and the idea of doing a bunch of 6' rip cuts becomes a lot more palatable with a few electrons helping me out.

As to my HOA, I actually live in a townhome, with 5 units per stand-alone building. The utilities come into the building and get distributed to the units from there, so while I have my own breaker panel, any changes I make could impact things upstream. They have finally (after 4 months) approved my request to make a few changes, but now I have to get quotes from electricians and pray it's affordable. If I can throw a similar amount of cash into a saw that'll cover my needs, I may just wave off on the electrical work, at least for now.

One last note: my wife's office (sanctuary?) is directly over the garage, so I'm highly motivated to choose power tools that are relatively quiet. :D Sounds like a bandsaw fits the bill.

[Jim Koepke]

The true beauty of a total handtool approach is that you can do it any time, day or night, neighbors can go to heck.

Have you ever tried hand cutting deep mortises in oak at 2:00 am without the neighbors knowing?

jim

[Chris Friesen]

A bandsaw goes nicely with hand tools. Need to taper a leg? Draw a line on the leg, freehand it on the bandsaw, smooth it with a plane.

One of the things to consider is that the method of working with pure hand tools is different.

1) There's no need to "four-square" your stock. Cut your panels to exact length and width after glue-up. Often aprons and panels don't need to be any specific exact thickness, so where possible you can just use whatever thickness the stock cleans up to be. Nobody will ever care if your table aprons are 7/8" instead of 3/4". The thickness of drawer bottoms doesn't really matter, within reason.

2) The insides of chests of drawers and the undersides of tables generally don't need to be smooth-planed.

3) Also, there's nothing gained by milling all your stock all at once, like there is with power tools. So you can mill a board, cut the joinery, fit it in place, then go on to the next board. This works different muscle groups so that you don't tire as fast.

[David Gendron]

+1 on Chris F. Post. And like others said, the band saw would be the first power tool to come in my shop... If I ever change my mind and go "ibrid".

[Ken Martin]

In my small space in the garage while I have a cordless drill the only corded tool is my lectric lathe.

[Don Dorn]

I just bought my first plough plane (Record 044) but admit that I'm wondering if I've taken this neander thing a bit too far. You have to admit that putting grooves in a panel with a tablesaw is short work, precisce and you can set it to just the right width for the panel you are using.

Trying to strike a balance here, but it sure is nice to hear nothing but the music and wood slicing. Even though they are very handy, I've grown to despise the whine of a router. I'm going to try and raise a panel with a new rabbit plane - mostly just to say that I've done it. The slope is definately slippery.

[Nathan Talbert]

I suppose one could go as far as to not even use hand tools that were made by powered machines. That rules out anything from LN and LV:rolleyes:. Thus you would become a true pre-historic neanderthal man using sticks and stones.
There really is no way to define "neandering". I'd prefer to be called one who enjoys producing well made things that reflect my personality through the use of tools that force me to use my own sweat and energy. I think you could call that....uhhmmmm...... art?

[Larry Marshall]

I suppose one could go as far as to not even use hand tools that were made by powered machines.

This who are adovcates of wooden hand planes will point out that when the demand for lots of tools drove handplane making towards an industrialized production model, the quality dropped off considerably. While not surprising, it speaks to your comment :-)



There really is no way to define "neandering". I'd prefer to be called one who enjoys producing well made things that reflect my personality through the use of tools that force me to use my own sweat and energy. I think you could call that....uhhmmmm...... art?

The terms "galoot" and "neanderthal" were perjorative terms from a period of time when using anything BUT power tools was seen as backward and innappropriate. Those of us who were driven from the mainstream by table saw thumping people calling us that, simply adopted the term(s) to describe ourselves. But now that the woodworking world has become more enlightened with respect to the need for hand tools in any shop, plugged or unplugged, it seems to me that the terms should be "unplugged", which is the term people are using to replace those old names.

Cheers --- Larry

[Matt Evans]

Have you ever tried hand cutting deep mortises in oak at 2:00 am without the neighbors knowing?

jim


Yes. And believe me, they know!

I don't worry about it too much, but I try to keep even the hand tool work to a minimum after 11pm-midnight.

[Richard Magbanua]

Have you ever tried hand cutting deep mortises in oak at 2:00 am without the neighbors knowing?

jim

It is funny that hand tool use is synonymous with quiet. When my son wants to watch cartoons in the cottage workshop with me he gets mad when I saw or bang on the chisels. He complains it's too loud!

[harry strasil]

Have you ever tried hand cutting deep mortises in oak at 2:00 am without the neighbors knowing?

jim

It's easy Jim, even Ma sleeping directly above my shop doesn't know I'm doing it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/footmorticer004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/footmorticer.jpg

Ooops, I hope guided Hand Guided applies. LOL

[harry strasil]

I have even toyed with the idea of using it to clean the bulk of dovetails out, but haven't tried it yet, and maybe even using it for making hand cut box joints.

[Zach England]

Real neanderthal tools come from the pre-bronze age. All these kids with their metal...

[David Gendron]

What about the wood we use... Should it be arvested with hand tools, i meen no gas or steam engine? An axe, and xc saws, one or two horses and of course a pit saw!! If only I had a wood lot!!

[Randy Klein]

What about the wood we use... Should it be arvested with hand tools, i meen no gas or steam engine? An axe, and xc saws, one or two horses and of course a pit saw!! If only I had a wood lot!!


But of course no machine made harnesses on the horses nor can you feed the horses any food that was handled by machinery...

[David Gendron]

And how do you get to the wood lot??? I think there is a comunity caled Amish thet live prety much that way!