How to choose between a #4 and #4 1/2 ?

[Tom Jones III]

I've been slowly learning and adding to my plane collection and I am ready to purchase a good smoother. I'm currently using an Anant #4 that after infinite labor does an acceptable job but is not a joy to use.

My main question is how do I choose between a #4 and a #4 1/2?

I'd also appreciate any suggestions for what brand to choose, but I'm leaning heavily towards LN because of my experience with their block plane and shoulder plane. There is no used market to speak of where I live so that is not much of an option and after my experience rebuilding the Anant I'm ready to buy a handplane that is ready to use.

[Jeff Willard]

I've always found a 4 1/2 to be slightly unwieldy. I much prefer the size of a #4. If I saw myself smoothing a lot of larger pieces, I'd choose a 4 1/2, otherwise, I'd stick with the 4. YMMV.
Can't go wrong with Lie-Nielsen. I just added a sixth to the stable.
One thing you might want to consider is interchangability among the irons. Do you currently use, or plan on any other plane purchases? The 4 and 5 use a common iron. The 4 1/2, 6, and 7 use the same iron. I find having extra irons on hand to be a plus, but $40-$50 a pop for irons is significant.

[Prashun Patel]

You can't go wrong with either.

The choice between 4 and 4 1/2 is largely based on your hand size. The 4 will be slightly more versatily in tighter spots. The 4 1/2's are a little harder to come by, so if you buy used, you'll probably pay a little more.

You might consider the bevel up smoothers from Veritas (or LN). They're in the same league as the LN 'normals', but have a slightly different feel and some say are better in switchier grain. I love mine...

[Matthew Dworman]

I've always found a 4 1/2 to be slightly unwieldy.

My experience is otherwise. I find the added weight of the 4 1/2 helpful. For me it's the 4 1/2 hands down - I own both, but if I could only keep 1, it would definitely be the 4 1/2.

Pros:
Added weight - 1.5 lbs more than the 4. more mass= less work. Inertia and gravity are your friends
Blade width - 3/8" wider - extra width means fewer passes

Cons:
none

This is my take - others will surely disagree. If you have the opportunity to try them for yourself, you will know for sure.
I see that LN will be in Austin, TX Jan 8 & 9. If you can make it to that, you can test drive all the toys....


Best regards,
Matthew

[Robert Rozaieski]

I like a shorter, smaller plane for a smoother. There's less need for flatness when you use a shorter plane. With the longer smoother, it will tend to ride the high spots more so it will require more planing to get the entire surface smooth. When you are taking super thin shavings with a smoother, it can make a difference. I now use wooden smoothers that are all about 8" long, but when I used metal planes, my #3 was my favorite, even more than my #4. If you are choosing between the #4 and the #4½, my choice would be the #4.

[Prashun Patel]

Not to sound like a broken record here, but the Veritas BU Smoother has more mass than a typical #4, and is a little wider.

[Tom Jones III]

I think I see the consensus of the group, I need to buy all 3! I had not considered the BU smoother, it might be a good option for me since I work mainly with walnut and sometimes the grain can get tricky.

[Matt Stiegler]

My main question is how do I choose between a #4 and a #4 1/2?

There's no consensus on this. For example, the authors of two of the leading books on handplanes, Hack and Schwarz, disagree, Hack preferring larger and Schwarz smaller. I think the only way to really know which you prefer is to use both for a while and decide. That said, some often-mentioned reasons to get a #4 1/2 are:


more mass, so you have to press down less
for work on larger projects like tables or dressers
if you have bigger hands
to have blades that are interchangeable with a #7 jointer and #5 1/2 jack

And some reasons to get a #4 are:


faster because shorter sole doesn't do as much flattening
to work on medium to small projects
you got smaller hands
much easier to find, and less expensive, used

My own two cents on this is that the big hands/small hands thing is overrated and shouldn't be a factor. For me, I'd get a 4 1/2 if I wanted one smoother to use instead of a ROS after power tool dimensioning, but I'd get a #4 if I envisioned more hand tool work. But as Shawn said, a bevel up smoother (LV BUS or LAS) is worth a serious look too.

There are lots of other threads discussing this, including here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13921) and here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=121676).


I'd also appreciate any suggestions for what brand to choose, but I'm leaning heavily towards LN because of my experience with their block plane and shoulder plane.

You can't go wrong with LN or LV here. I've seen a couple very respected sources say that folks generally regard LN's BD planes as superior and LV's BU planes as superior. The handles on LV planes are less canted, which might make them less comfortable on a lower bench and more comfortable on a higher bench.


There is no used market to speak of where I live so that is not much of an option and after my experience rebuilding the Anant I'm ready to buy a handplane that is ready to use.

Fair enough, although there are excellent, reputable sources for used planes online (Walt at Brass City is one among several) that are far, far less of a crapshoot then ebay or cheapies. If buying used Stanleys, many suggest focusing on types 9 or 10 through 13 or 15.

[Steve Hamlin]

I have both, and as already stated, the choice is all down to personal preference and perhaps the size of both you and the work. What you're used to will be a big factor. I started with just a number 7 jointer, and so naturally gravitate to the 4 1/2 size (in my case a Clfton 4 1/2 or Record CS88.) I like the heft and stability as well as the width of cut. My 4 gets used more as a teeny try plane.
If going for new, neither LN nor Veritas nor Clifton will be found wanting, and all three companies (and their principle agents) offer great customer support.
(I'm a Brit, and so like racing green paint, so my choice was fixed before I was properly domesticated.)

[Jeff Willard]

I have the 62 and 164. Good choices, and would add a lot of versatility to your arsenal.

[jerry nazard]

The 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 have some high profile users and thus a bit of attached celebrity mystique. When I acquired my 4 1/2 (Millers Falls), I thought that it would become my "go to" plane for smoothing. After the initial excitement died down, I found myself using it less and less. For most jobs, a #4 is what I want: however, I find myself reaching for a #3 almost as often (see Bob's earlier post). Just my .02.

[scott spencer]

I think I see the consensus of the group, I need to buy all 3! I had not considered the BU smoother, it might be a good option for me since I work mainly with walnut and sometimes the grain can get tricky.

As the old saying goes...."When in doubt, buy all three"! :D

I like the heft and feel of my 4-1/2 so I tend to reach for that more than my 4.

[Mick David]

I just faced the same decision and, after attending a L-N event, picked up the Lee Valley #4. I have the LN low-angle jack already, so I wanted to get something with a shorter sole. Plus, the size of the #4 felt better to me.

I went with the LV largely due to positive reviews and the fact that it's $100 less than the comparable LN.

[Jeff Willard]

I find myself reaching for a #3 almost as often...

I really like a #3 also, but since that wasn't part of the OP's query, I didn't address it. But now that it's been brought up, I'm as likely to pick up a 3 as I am a 4.

It's fun spending other peoples money!:D

[Jim Koepke]

If you can manage or afford to "buy all three" that would by my suggestion. But then, my collection of old Stanley/Bailey style planes was put together over a few years.

Not sure if this translates into an answer but there are two type 6 and one type 9 #4s plus one Bedrock #604 in my shop. There is only one #4-1/2. One of the type 6 #4s is set with an almost too closed mouth. With a well honed blade, this can take super thin shavings off a board without regard to grain direction. With many boards the difference in the finish can be felt more than it can be seen.

My 4-1/2 seems to get a little better when ever a bit more time is spent fettling on it. It is a type 6 and though in good condition when it was bought, it was not in good shape. The sole was not flat, and could still use another hour or two of work. When a wide board is being smoothed, it is usually the go to user. Since there is only one of these in my shop, it is set with a medium mouth.

The tight mouthed #4 was set up that way recently to compare with the Bedrock with a very tight mouth. The jury is still out, but since there is no hurry on my part, they all get to stay for now.

If you can wait to attend the tool event in Austin, TX you will be amazed at what gems of information and ideas you can pick up. You will also be able see how the planes feel to you.

So my final 2¢ on this is... drum roll please... Buy the new #4-1/2 from LN and then troll ebay for an early #4 or two. Over time, you may even find that a #3 or even the smaller bench planes have a place in your arsenal.

jim

[Richard Niemiec]

My best advice is to get yourself a fettled vintage Stanley #4, much less of an investment while you use and get used to using it (maybe add a Hock iron, or then again, not), then consider the upgrade to a #4 1/2, as there's nothing you can do with a #4 1/2 that you can't do with a #4, and an old Stanley in good shape will run rings around an Anant, and in my experience be 95% of a LN or LV (not that I am dissing either, I own several LN and LV planes, but not a #4, or a #3 for that matter, from these fine companies). Bevel up smoothers that are vintage are very pricey due to collectors so I consider LN and LV the only reasonable source for these. I can only imagine what you've been going through with the Anant. Oh, and learn how to sharpen irons, well.

[Richard Niemiec]

I There is no used market to speak of where I live so that is not much of an option and after my experience rebuilding the Anant I'm ready to buy a handplane that is ready to use.

Oh, forgot to add you should watch the classifieds below, and the swap and sell over on WoodNet; plenty of planes for sale by reputable folk who have given the tools a once-over in both from time to time; its slow now likely due to the holidays.

[Tom Jones III]

One of the best parts of my experience with the Anant is that it forced me to learn more about how the hand plane works so that I could beat it into submission. It also forced me to become good at sharpening! I'm very happy I started with that b/c it really forced me to learn.

[Brian Kent]

Last year I asked people what is the "The Best Smooth Plane You Have Ever Used"?
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=85673

You should probably buy one of each of the planes listed and then make your choice.

Here is a compilation of responses:

We now have a list of 41 "Best Smooth Planes You Have Ever Used" with about 36 planes or variations of planes included!

Bridge City CT-12
Coffin
Coffin
Clark and Williams York Pitch
ECE 711
ECE Primus
HNT Gordon
HNT Gordon - T1 HSS blade
Japanese Plane
Japanese Plane
Japanese Plane - Shop=made with help of Inomoto-san
Japanese Plane - Yamamoto 120mm
Krenov
Krenov-made smoother
Lee Valley Bevel Up Smoother
Lee Valley Bevel Up Smoother
Lee Valley Bevel Up Smoother
Lee Valley Veritas Low Angle Smoother
Lie-Nielsen #4
Lie-Nielsen 4-1/2
Lie-Nielsen 64 Low Angle Jack - 36° iron
Light Woodie
Marcou Infill
Marcou S15
Mathieson Infill
Millers Falls #14
Mujingfang
Norris A5 Infill
Norris A5 style Infill - Shop-made
Norris Infill
Ron Brese
Ron Brese Kit
Sauer and Steiner Infill
Shepherd Infill kit - Shop-made
St James Bay Infill Kit
Stanley Bedrock 603 - refinished
Stanley #4 type 7 with Lie-Nielsen .125 blade
Stanley with Hock Blade
Stanley#3 Infill Smoother
Steve Knight Padouk Coffin
Wards Master #4

"The best plane is one you have learned and tuned to it's max."
Steve Knight

[Tony Zaffuto]

Lots of sound advice already, but I'll put in my two cents anyways!

I have a lot of smoothers (planes in general), and the order of choice (for smoothers) is my Clifton #3 , then my LN #4 with a high angle frog OR my LV BUS (for which I have a regular and high angle blade, plus a toothed blade, which is used far more than I ever thought).

Why the #3 first? Don't really know, except maybe it fits my hand better?

[Hank Knight]

Tom,

As others have said, I think the answer to your question is strictly a matter of personal perference. I'll give you my experience for what it's worth.

I didn't own a 4 1/2 until about a year ago. My favorite smoother was a 604 bedrock that I had tuned and upgraded the blade and chipbreaker. It's a wonderful plane and it was my favorite smoother. Then I got involved in a project that required smoothing some large surfaces of very curly cherry. Never one to miss a chance to buy a new tool, I siezed the opportunity and ordered a LN 4 1/2 with a York pitch (50 degree) frog. I was, and continue to be, very impressed with the plane, and it is now my dedicated smoother of choice.

I still use my 604 a lot. It is a very versitile tool. I use it for small smoothing tasks and for all those many, many occasions where just one or two swipes with a sharp plane are all that needed to put things right. I don't pull out my 4 1/2 unless the job calls for serious smoothing of large surfaces. That's where the 4 1/2 shines.

Since you don't already own a high quality #4, I think Richard's advice above is excellent: Start with a good #4 and, when you're ready, add a 4 1/2 later. The #4 will do everything a 4 1/2 will do and you'll use it a lot where you wouldn't ordinarily pull out the great big 4 1/2. The #4 is a very versitle plane - that's why there are so many of them in the wild. When you get around to adding the 4 1/2, you will enjoy the larger plane, and I don't think you'll find that it is superfluous or that it duplicates the #4.

I don't agree with the idea that hand size should dictate your choice. My hands are small and I don't find any particular advantage or disadvantage in using either plane because of my small hands. As for bevel-up vs. bevel-down, I think that's a matter pf personal preference also. I own a LN bevel up smoother. I seldom use it - not because it's a bad plane, it's not -but because I just prefer the traditional bevel down smoothers. I have nothing against bevel up planes. In fact my bevel up jack has become my favorite plane of all, and I have no doubt that those who prefer bevel up smoothers get excellent performance from them. Again, its a personal preference thing.

It's your choice. Go with your gut. You'll be happy with with your choice, whatever it is.

My $.02

Hank

[jerry nazard]

Tom,

This blog from Chris Schwarz just showed up in my mailbox. Check it out:
http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Vintage+Planes+That+Are+Better+Than+New.aspx

-Jerry

[Larry Marshall]

Seems to me that you need to answer the "what will I use it for" question and analyze it carefully. You said you were looking for a smoother. Will that be its only function? Lots of people like 4 1/2s and more weight because they use these planes for things besides smoothing and use sandpaper for what some call smoothing with a plane. If it's true smoothing that you're after, I'm on the side of those who believe that smaller/lighter are very beneficial. I use a #3 myself for this purpose. By contrast, if you expect to face boards with the plane, the 4 1/2, or maybe even a 5 1/2 might be more appropriate.

Cheers --- Larry

[Jim R Edwards]

I say get both!

[Zach England]

here are a Stanley 4 and LN 4 1/2 side-by-side for comparison. The LN has a higher angle frog, which gives a bit more room between the tote and top of the blade.