Advice on fixing a mistake

[Jerry Strojny]

Well, today I did it. I cut the plywood side panels out of the tall dresser I am building for my daughter.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020476.jpg

Long story short, I hated how the finish looked on the plywood when compared to the solid wood. Cherry. I should have checked this before I even cut the plywood because the other side "matches" much better. Lesson learned. Always try the finish FIRST.

Anyway, now that the panels are gone, I need to figure out a good way of getting new ones in.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020484.jpg

If I route out the "inside" portion of the rails and legs, I can only do it on 3 sides...not on the front legs, the drawer dividers are mortised into the them. How do I work around that? Do I need to? Am I describing it in a way that makes sense?

Any ideas out there? I really could use another set of eyes on this problem. Here are some close-ups of the grooves (at the corners) Don't know if it will help, but it can't hurt.

Bottom front
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020480.jpg


Top at back
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020482.jpg

Thanks,
Jerry

[Keith Christopher]

I'd give routing the inside removing one side of the dado and using pocket screws in the plywood to secure it in place. Once assembled it will hide the pocket screws and you're good to go. might need some hand tooling where you can't get a router in but I think by looking at it you should be able to get 80% of it with a straight bit.

[John Thompson]

The simple way IMO would be to rabbet the inside but.. as you stated, you have yourself between a rock and a hard place with those drawer dividers tenoned into the front. In this case I would remove the side strectchers and re-group from there. You would have to mortise again and make new stretchers but... it gives you the option of using the groove that already exist.

Good luck as it is going to require a bit of patience and careful thought.

[Jamie Buxton]

How 'bout this...

You don't make any changes to the existing frame. You add what looks like a rail in the middle of the existing opening, but it goes in last. You make upper and lower panels from 1/4" plywood. You install them by bending them and snapping them into the dadoes on the stiles, then you slide them up and down to get them into the dadoes on the existing rails. It may help to make these panels a little narrower than usual. The new middle rail goes in after the panels, covering the gap between them. One end of the rail can fit into the dado in one stile. The other end of the rail can fasten to the stile with two pocket screws. Or you can use pocket screws at both ends.

[keith ouellette]

jerry;

first off let me say that your are a way better man than I am because I would never attempt trying to fix this problem. I would have probably said oh well to the finish. (My finishing skills are horrible so I'm used to disappointment)

Now my idea:

If you take a router with a flat bottom bit and make a jig so that the router sits on the jig and the jig sits on the legs of the dresser you can rout away all the wood on the bottom rail down level with the dado. it should rout it pretty flat. The jig would need some stops to keep the bit from hitting the legs of the dress and keeping the cut square.

slide the new panel in

Then resaw a piece of cherry to fit on top of the "thinned" rail and lamiate it on.

I can see it all in my head but I'm not sure If I explained it fully. If you like the idea and want any clarification feel free to ask.

WARNING: I've never done anything like that before.

[Jerry Strojny]

I like it Kieth. I was stumbling on how to route the bottom rail...Rails of course. I will take a closer look at this possibility tonight.

Believe me Kieth, it wasn't easy to start cutting. I had just finished fitting all the drawers...
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020470.jpg

But in the end, I think it will be worth it. To me it would have really ruined the piece. This is one of MY best projects to date, I didn't want it looking ugly because of stupid plywood. Maybe next time I'll go all solid wood. (If I win the lottery.)

I hate the finishing stage too. I know it may seem weird, but this dresser will be finished in amber shelac. We have a 70 years old house and the amber shelac matches most all trim in her bedroom so very nicely. I'm pretty sure that is what they probably used 70 years ago. After this is fixed I need to find some cherry knobs.

This is still in the brainstorming phase, so if there are any other ideas I'd be more than glad to hear.

Thanks all, Jerry

[Jerry Strojny]

How 'bout this...

You don't make any changes to the existing frame. You add what looks like a rail in the middle of the existing opening, but it goes in last. You make upper and lower panels from 1/4" plywood. You install them by bending them and snapping them into the dadoes on the stiles, then you slide them up and down to get them into the dadoes on the existing rails. It may help to make these panels a little narrower than usual. The new middle rail goes in after the panels, covering the gap between them. One end of the rail can fit into the dado in one stile. The other end of the rail can fasten to the stile with two pocket screws. Or you can use pocket screws at both ends.

I thought about something like this too. I would just need to figure out a way for the drawer slides to attach to the panels. They were screwed into the 3/4" ply before. I could always thicken up the 1/4" with a layer of 1/2". This is also doable.

Keep 'em coming...

[John Thompson]

I thought about something like this too. I would just need to figure out a way for the drawer slides to attach to the panels. They were screwed into the 3/4" ply before. I could always thicken up the 1/4" with a layer of 1/2". This is also doable.

Keep 'em coming...

I must be a bit confused on this one Jerry. You removed ply as you didn't like the look of it finished but... you consider using ply in the panels from how I interupt it... Have I missed something here by not reading or mis-interpretation of what you are asking?..... :confused:

Regards...

[Jerry Strojny]

Sorry for the confusion John. I didn't like the side of the plywood that was facing out. The other side was much better, but had some funky inclusions that made me not want to use it. In the end, I should have gotten a different piece of cherry ply.

Maybe I should really look at how much it would cost to make those solid...It may not be as bad as I am assuming.

[John Thompson]

I read you Lima-Charlie (loud and clear) now Jerry...

Again.... good luck!

[Don Jarvie]

Try this. Rout out the back dado so it becomes a rabbit on the inside of the top, bottom and back. Leave the front as is since the stretchers are mortised in.

Cut you side panels to size and drop them in and slide them in the front dado. If you can't slide them in you may need to take a bit off the backside of the panel that goes in the front.

The idea is the panel will drop into the top and bottom and when you push it into the front the back will drop in.

Just rip a few pieces to replace the cut out dado to hold the panel in.

Based on the pictures this should work. You may have to do a little hand chielsing by the back middle strecher.

[Jerry Strojny]

In this case I would remove the side strectchers and re-group from there. You would have to mortise again and make new stretchers but... it gives you the option of using the groove that already exist.

I am looking at a variation of this option as my favorite so far. I am thinking of just removing the top rail. Then route the last 3/8" of an inch groove all the way through to the top of the leg. Reroute the deeper mortise for the rail. And then slide in the panel and top rail. As I type this I see a problem. Being that the rail is longer than the width of the panel, will I be able to "separate" the legs far enough without ruining the glue joint at the bottom rail to slide it in the mortise?

Should I just cut the top AND bottom rails and just do it with a little less worry. A little more destructive but maybe the safest method.


Good luck as it is going to require a bit of patience and careful thought.

Yes, and I am ready to do it right this time.

I also ran the numbers for solid cherry panels. About $30 per panel. I should have done it out of solid to begin with. Not worth all this crazy worring about it in the beginning, and now fixing it. The new panels will be solid cherry.

[Jamie Buxton]

... The new panels will be solid cherry...

And the drawer slides will mount to the panels, like they did before? Because the panels are solid wood, they'll be floating, right? So are your drawer slides going to be floating too? Or will you now need some other way to mount the slides?

[Robert Meyer]

Did you consider veneering some nice figured cherry onto the side panels?

[Jerry Strojny]

And the drawer slides will mount to the panels, like they did before? Because the panels are solid wood, they'll be floating, right? So are your drawer slides going to be floating too? Or will you now need some other way to mount the slides?

Yes the panels will be floating. But so were the plywood panels originally. The drawer slides are just screwed onto the panel. All I plan on doing is elogating the screw hole at the back of the slide.

And as far as veneering...thought about it briefly, but decided it was work I am not comfortable with at my present skill level. The panels are cut up into pieces now anyway. So I'll save veneering for another project.

[Jerome Hanby]

Did you consider veneering some nice figured cherry onto the side panels?

That's what I was thinking. Gluing it on to the panels you had installed after the finish was already on probably wouldn't have worked too spiffy, so you'd still be at the point you are now.

How about adding some flat metal hardware to hold the new panel's back on two adjacent sides (top and left, bottom and right, whatever) and letting the new panel slide into the other two sides and attach to the hardware. You could make some "hinge mortises" on the panel if space on the inside was tight. Then install some delicate molding inside the panel's frame to hide the "fix".

P.S.
Thanks for posting this. This is exactly the kind of thing I would have done. I'm going to take your "test the finish first" wisdom to heart.

[Lee Schierer]

Here's my thought on the side panels. Cut the stretcher top and bottom at the back of the dresser with the thinnest smoothest cutting blade you have to remove the back assembly from the rest of the frame assembly. Then route new loose tenons in the rails and stiles for reassembly purposes. Make your panel and slide it into place into the front portion of the dresser. Then put the back on using the newly made loose tenons. Your dresser will end up slightly (one saw kerf) less deep than it started out and no one but you (and the 10,000 SMC members) will know you didn't make it that way.

For your slide supports, make some poplar slats and use pocket screws to attach them inside the front face frame and to the inside of the back legs. Attach your runners to the slats. Since the grain will be running the same direction as your rails you won't have to worry about expansion and your side panels can remain free to float.

[Mike Henderson]

Did you consider veneering some nice figured cherry onto the side panels?
That would be my suggestion, also. In my experience, veneer finishes pretty much just like solid wood. I've mixed veneer and solid wood in a project and you can't tell the difference.

Mike

[John Harden]

Jerry, my advice would be to just cut out the lower rail. This would allow you easy access to install the new panel. Then, fashion and install a new lower rail.

Easy.

Regards,

John

[Kent A Bathurst]

Try this. Rout out the back dado so it becomes a rabbit on the inside of the top, bottom and back. Leave the front as is since the stretchers are mortised in.

Cut you side panels to size and drop them in and slide them in the front dado. If you can't slide them in you may need to take a bit off the backside of the panel that goes in the front.

The idea is the panel will drop into the top and bottom and when you push it into the front the back will drop in.

Just rip a few pieces to replace the cut out dado to hold the panel in.

Based on the pictures this should work. You may have to do a little hand chielsing by the back middle strecher.


+1 - remove the wood where it will never be seen (inside bottom and inside back) with router-chisel-whatever, drop the panel in place, and screw in a couple cleats to hold it. Only one person will ever know, and in about 19 years, he will have forgotten all about it. Any tape-measure-size holes in the shop window? Woulda been in mine, for sure.

[David DeCristoforo]

Holy cow! So many ideas. But if it was me I would figure it like this. Most of the work done so far is in the legs, face and back frames. The end rails represent a minimum of work compared to the rest of the piece (and nice looking work it is too). So I'd just cut out the rails, re-route the grooves in those areas of the legs and make new rails. I really think this would involve less work than many of the very clever ideas that have been presented and would ultimately yield the cleanest "end" result.

[Peter Quinn]

My first though was just what David said. Blow those top and bottom side rails out and start over. Simple enough to remortise with a plunge router, etc. You still have a finished front and rear assembly, and there is very little to the sides worth saving. I would not even consider getting tricky with the rabbit bits.

My other though is have you considered using a panel molding design? No routing, no chisels, no hacking. just glue plywood splines into the existing grooves to act as the backer for the panel mold. Glue strips to the inside edge of this (blind side) using secondary wood of your choice. Fit your panels, solid or plywood, lay then in, and add your panel molding, either glued to the plywood splines, or nailed, or both. It achieves a slightly different look but requires no major modification of the other wise beautiful case.

If you were planning to run mechanical slides you can still do this with most slides even with floating panels by getting clips that hang off the back. Just make sure your back is solid enough to handle the weight.

[Matthew Hills]

My initial thought was to cut out the back of the groove, giving yourself a deep rabbett that you could place your replacement panel in to. Follow up with filler strips, similar to how you'd trim out a glass panel in a cabinet door.

The suggestion to cut out the top rail would also be worth considering. I'd plan on recutting the mortise/tenon joint into a cross between a stub tenon and a bridle joint (to avoid needing to spread structure to slip it in). This should glue up into a strong joint -- you could even draw and peg it if you want some additional locking. (How is the top being fastened?)

http://www.iverswoodshop.com/Articles/Wood%20Joints/Mortise/Support%20Files/image013.jpghttp://www.2by6.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/stub_tenon_joint.jpg

And all I have to say is... be careful with that router!
My routing seems to go awry unless I have the perfect router setup/fixture.

Matt

[Adam Carl]

I would cut out the top or bottom rail on each side. Sand down what was left after it was cut and recut the groove extending it to the end of the board. Make the solid wood panels, slide them in and then slide in new bottom (or top) rail, basically a stub tenon.

[Jerry Strojny]

Well, I decided to cut out the rails, make new panels, and new rails.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020496.jpg

I thought I'd share the process of the fix. Comments are welcome.


Here is what was left after cutting.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020493.jpg

And after setting up some rails for the router to sit on, the remaining part of the rail was trimmed.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020508.jpg

Trimmed flush.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020514.jpg

Here are the new panels during the glue-up. Not thrilled with the color and grain matching of the pieces, but around here cherry is pretty hard to get any wider than about 4-5 inches. I consinder my self lucky to get an 18" wide panel out of 4 boards.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020497.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020498.jpg

Here is were my human nature came screaming to the front. I cut one of the brand new panels 1/2" short in width. For cripes sake! It's 17 3/4" you goofball! The second one was cut correctly.
I've always believed that what makes a great woodworker is how well the mistakes are addressed. Now, I'm trying to say I good by any means...I'm just trying to justify my continual screw ups. And this is a bit theraputic to air out ones flaws.
So, to fix this one, I decided to glue on the cut-offs from the glue up. Since one of them was not enough to make up the 1/2", I glued them to both sides. Then I will cut the panel again, leaving only 1/4" of each. The panel sits in a 3/8" groove, so they should be fully seated in the grooves and not visible. Here are some close ups of the new glue up.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020506.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u317/ElGuapoLego/Tall%20Dresser/P1020507.jpg

That's as far as I have gotten so far. Hopefully this weekend I will get the rest of the work done on the panels and route out the mortises in the legs. The new rails are complete.

Happy woodworking.

[Jerry Strojny]

Well, I didn't get as much done as hoped this past weekend, but I did get the "oops" panel cut down to size, and the mortises done in the legs. Now is a matter a dry fitting a few more times to tweak all the rabbits on the panels and tenons on the rails.
Overall it seems to have been a good choice to "fix" the dresser this way. I wish it wasn't taking so much time, but it should look much better than what is would have without the fix.
Since the dresser is partially glued up, it was interesting doing the mortises this time. The front and back frame assemblies are all one. So moving around a 5' by 4' frame on a small table drill press table was not easy. I have a knock-off Shopsmith (5-in-1) with the mortises attachment. My wife had to help hold up the other end the frame assembly as I worked the mortising action at the area with the mortise to be cut. Tedious, but we eventually got there.
I also finally got my Veritas shoulder plane setup....what took me so long. It made quick work of refining the rabbit on the panels. It's my new favorite tool.

Thanks for all the opinions on which way to proceed. Soon I'll see if I made the right choice.