Couple of question on your history of laser engraving

[Peter Marks]

Hi everyone,

for a little research i am interested in a couple of things and hope some of you might be able to help me.

a) since when..

did laser engraving become a possibility for a wider audience of 'little' end-users as well as for the bigger industry players?

b) since when..

1. for how long is laser-engraving a possible business opportunity/how long are some of you using a flatbed engraver (even privately, not as business) from one of the bigger companies (epilog, uls, trotec, etc.)?

2. how much wattage did your earlier models use? did they have a focus-system/possibility?

the sources i read approx. date that even before 2000 laser engraving with e.g. a 25W unit on a diversity of materials has been possible - correct?

c) what materials..

what kind of materials do/did you engrave? the 'usual' possible suspects: stone, wood, acrylic, even paper?

Thats it for starters,
any answers are greatly appreciated!

Thanks + Kind regards, Peter

[James Stokes]

I really do not think your post has relevance to anything. All of that information is easily available using google.

[Peter Marks]

Hi James,

i somehow doubt that google will show me any relevant information for how long some of you (the users) are working with a laser engraver, with what wattage and on which materials you engraved when you started.

Thanks anyway, Peter

[Scott Shepherd]

Hi Peter, welcome to the Creek!

I think there are plenty of people willing to help you with your information if you can clarify what you're after. Every so often someone joins the forum and tries to do market research on us unsuspecting laser users. Essentially, they are using this forum to gain free market research, which some people would prefer to stay away from.

If you could tell us a little more about your curiosity with the topic and what you plan to do with the information, I'm sure someone may be willing to help out.

[Peter Marks]

Thanks Scott,

i can see your point now. Especially since it is my first post.

In order to clarify some points: i am not doing any market reasearch at all, neither am i a salesman who intends to use the gained 'information' in any commercial way.

I am looking to buy and use a laser myself.

I am also trying to establish a timeline - being interested in the development of CO2 laser engraving on different kinds of materials for a particular reason.

The reason being a patent that might, if proven effective, eat away at possibilities concerning methods of engraving certain materials.

Best

[Dee Gallo]

The reason being a patent that might, if proven effective, eat away at possibilities concerning methods of engraving certain materials.

Best

Peter, that sounds mighty ominous. We Creekers tend to be rather open and free thinkers who don't enjoy the idea of someone trying to control what we can or cannot engrave or cut. There are many posts on the subject of engraving bricks, for example, if you'd care to search them.

Please speak plainly if you wish to get help in a specific area.

~ dee

[Michael Hunter]

Best to assume that EVERY use of a laser is covered by one or more patents!

Luckily for us, the laser inventors/developers (Synrad, Coherent etc.) own many of the most basic patents (cutting/engraving wood, plastic etc.) and appear to act as though purchase of a laser tube (any make) is sufficient to "licence" its use on the common materials.

The most commonly seen "problems" with patents are when wanting to engrave bricks/tiles (especially for "donation walls" etc.) or denim material. It seems unlikely that these patents would stand in court, but us one-man-bands can't afford the cost of testing this.


PS. Be aware that should you want to patent a laser-associated process yourself, you would find a very large number of people on the Creek, Engraving Etc. and other fora (forumses) who would claim prior use on just about use you could think of.

[Lee DeRaud]

Well, I guess Peter did ask one easily-answered question:
a) since when..

did laser engraving become a possibility for a wider audience of 'little' end-users as well as for the bigger industry players?Gotta believe the short answer to that one is "Versalaser" (google for intro date etc). Might not have been a first in terms of any specific feature, but it certainly seems to be the first instance of a laser engraver aggressively marketed to a "general audience".

[Rodne Gold]

Welcome to the Forum
Odd first post , I must say , couched in cottonwool and vaguery??

As others have said , you can glean the info via your free access to this forum and from just asking your local laser supplier/rep for these answers..

[Peter Marks]

posted at wrong position. sorry. reply down below.

[Peter Marks]

post from above which has been posted at wrong pos.



Peter, that sounds mighty ominous.

It is. Fortunately not for any of you i think. It concerns the european union 'only'.


Luckily for us, the laser inventors/developers (Synrad, Coherent etc.) own many of the most basic patents (cutting/engraving wood, plastic etc.) and appear to act as though purchase of a laser tube (any make) is sufficient to "licence" its use on the common materials.
Common in this case could mean: certain plastics, woods, paper?


PS. Be aware that should you want to patent a laser-associated process yourself, you would find a very large number of people on the Creek, Engraving Etc. and other fora (forumses) who would claim prior use on just about use you could think of.
I myself do not at all want to do such a thing! The opposite, i was hoping that, if neccessary, people actually would state that they claim prior use.


"Versalaser".. seems to be the first instance of a laser engraver aggressively marketed to a "general audience".

Thank you. Got the basic timeline now. Versalaser appeared 2002, but even as soon as 1997 ULS sent a 25W CO2 laser into the market.


Welcome to the Forum
Odd first post , I must say , couched in cottonwool and vaguery??

As others have said , you can glean the info via your free access to this forum and from just asking your local laser supplier/rep for these answers..

1) Yes, not yet, but well, yes.
2) Thanks!

[Scott Shepherd]

Way prior to 1997, more like 1987, well 88 to be accurate. Info is available here :

http://ulsinc.com/english/home/profile/history_pop_fwd.html

[James Stokes]

I think lasers started showing up in engraving shops about 1995. My first one I bought in 2000. You can check with Epilog or Universal for their exact date they started marketing their lasers. They were both selling tabletop lasers around 2000. I would agree the first big drop in price was around 2002.

[Dan Hintz]

I see history of laser use or popularity of certain materials to be irrelevant to a patent. The process is either patentable or its not, and it's not really in our best interest to give you marketing-based information to help you secure a patent that could potentially reduce our future audience. That's all I have to say on the subject (for the moment)...

[Joe Pelonio]

I wouldn't worry about patents on what materials can be cut or engraved with a CO2 laser. That's like trying to patent using a hammer to flatten a tin can rather than driving in a nail.

At this point with lasers in use daily at sign/engraving shops for a good 20 years, i doubt that there's much left that hasn't been tried, including some unsafe materials. Besides the variety of plastic, wood, and paper products, I myself have done plant leaves, vegetables, cookies and other various foods,
ice, fabrics, and have even seen pictures of engraving on human skin (don't try this at home).

[Mark Winlund]

I would like to inform the group that I have the patent (pending!) on the flat blade screwdriver, with a sub-patent on the phillips screwdriver. To avoid trouble and massive lawsuits, please forward 5 cents per use of the above mentioned implements. For a very reasonable fee, I will license the use of these inventions... contact my attorneys, Dewey, cheatum, and Howe.

Mark

[AL Ursich]

I have a Laser engraver I bought off of eBay in June 2001 from Lasersnow. They had 9 feedbacks then and have over 90 now with 100% positive.

The unit came from Utah to the east coast. SO in afterthought.... It was a foolish waste of money.... It was broken and I thought I could fix it.... The Laser was Toast and never got it to work. It sits in my storage room, the Motion worked. Sold the laser unit with others I had last year.

It did teach me about lasers and I have the books and paperwork on it....
Two excellent books with lots of diagrams and procedures.

The applied Laser Technology (ALT) Laser Model ALT 2010 was purchased in June 1989 for about $28,700.00 by Mr. Michael Robak in Canton, MI.

"Applied Laser Technology, 7707 East Acoma, Scottsdale, AZ 85260"

Did this develop into Universal?

The paperwork has notes that with the package is a article from "THE ENGRAVERS JOURNAL" that discusses adding color to wood using LMI's System. I bet a search of this magazine from the late 80's will have a play by play of the introduction of the Laser answering many of your questions...

The paperwork dated June 28, 1989 said, "The Laser will also need to be refilled every two or three years at a cost of $600.00 per refill.

In the operation and maintenance manual vol 1 Rev 1 dated Sept 89 it tells you the drivers emulate the HP7475 B size Plotter.

In the Maintenance Procedures Vol 1 Rev 1 Dated June 1990 "Preliminary" it has a spec sheet list the max engraving speed of 16.5"/second with a max resolution of 0.0005" and a Beam Diameter of 0.007".

This Laser and documentation is available to a good home.... Any History of Laser Engraving Museums out there?

I went on to buy 3 more working lasers like the last picture and eventually traded them in for 2 Epilog Lasers. The ALT looks much like the pictured lasers with the brown sides.

AL

[Peter Marks]

I see history of laser use or popularity of certain materials to be irrelevant to a patent.

If a process/method is not new or obvious to think of a claim cannot we granted.


..it's not really in our best interest to give you marketing-based information to help you secure a patent that could potentially reduce our future audience. That's all I have to say on the subject (for the moment)...Do not worry, i will not secure any patent. But your statement is absolutely understandable nonetheless.


.. 5 cents per use of the above mentioned implements.
Might make you rich(er) :)


I wouldn't worry about patents on what materials can be cut or engraved with a CO2 laser. That's like trying to patent using a hammer to flatten a tin can rather than driving in a nail.
Agreed. It would be absurd to successfully claim a process that describes the method of engraving on a certain material. Especially if the process involved is basically available in any good common laser engraver.

So one more question: It has been possible to engrave something like paper way before the year 2000 and people have done it?

[Joe Pelonio]

So one more question: It has been possible to engrave something like paper way before the year 2000 and people have done it?
Yes, considering that an early Epilog was in trade shows as far back as 1991.

http://www.epiloglaser.com/downloads/company_history_key_execs.pdf

[Chris Code]

Yikes... this may or may not be the time to jump in. I am a newbee also interested in getting into this but have no idea as to what one needs to get involved or the cost. Coming to you from a small town in Northern Ontario Canada.

[Mike Christen]

This is a rather strange thread but

As far as born on dates I have a 1996 epilog summit that is still working great. It has a synrad laser tube in it also dated 1996, not sure if it has ever been recharged since I bought the laser used a few years ago.

[Rob Bosworth]

I went to work for LMI in 1981. They already had mfg. laser engraving systems and installed them. I believe LMI started about 1978, and one of their first machines they made was for laser engraving. This machine was a low cost alternative to the large stencil laser engraving systems used and made by a company called Lasercraft. They used high powered CO2 lasers and removed all of the material exposed through copper masks. Their was also a rotary laser engraving system made by a company called Lane. These worked similar to a photo lathe.

Gould patented laser processing in the late 60's. A company, Patlex, bought the rights to Gould's patent, and started charging a royalty to laser users, laser owner's, laser manufactures and laser system manufactures in the mid '80's.

Both ULS and Epilog emerged from the ashes of previous companies around 1988 - 1989. I think ULS sprung from a company called ALT and before that General Laser. Epilog sprung from Melco, which made sewing machines, I believe.

[Mike Ireland]

Advanced Laser Technology started in 1988 and later changed the name to Universal Laser Systems in 1991.

[Martin Boekers]

I think what would be more interesting would be to research what "patent
infringement" cases, if any, have actually made to court and have had a rendered desicion. If so those are the ones that would be used as precedent examples if a case would be brought against anyone or company.

Is anyone aware of any case that has a rendered desicion (not just a cease and desist letter) and a transcript of the desicion?

You would think that the major laser companies would jump onboard on such a case to fight any "so claimed patent rights" as it may limit their buying audience.


Marty

[Richard Rumancik]

Peter, let's see if I understand this . . . you want to start a laser business but you are aware of a patent in Europe that seems to cover the type of product you wish to make. It has something to do with lasering on paper. You are concerned that you might infringe on the patent, so you wanted to figure out if other people were doing the certain process prior to the patent date. If so, you would be able to argue that it was common knowledge and effectively dismiss the validity of the patent. Am I close?

If so, you need not hesitate to ask the question in a more direct manner. People will give you their (non-legal) opinions on the patent and tell you what process they have been using themselves and for how long.

A lot of times a patent can be abandoned by the owner for various reasons. They were unsuccessful in licensing or selling it, lost interest, don't want to litigate or can't afford to, or find they really don't have a very effective patent. You might want to find out if the owner is using the patent actively in some way. Perhaps you won't have to worry about infringement if it is abandoned.

[Peter Marks]

Peter, let's see if I understand this . . . you want to start a laser business but you are aware of a patent in Europe that seems to cover the type of product you wish to make. It has something to do with lasering on paper. You are concerned that you might infringe on the patent, so you wanted to figure out if other people were doing the certain process prior to the patent date. If so, you would be able to argue that it was common knowledge and effectively dismiss the validity of the patent. Am I close?

You are very close. Sorry for my vaguery, i should have described my situation right from the start.


If so, you need not hesitate to ask the question in a more direct manner. People will give you their (non-legal) opinions on the patent and tell you what process they have been using themselves and for how long.I am glad to know (very glad) that if the time comes i may ask for help. Everyone: thank you for you free minds.

Best Regards so far, Peter

[Darren Null]

This thread is making me really uncomfortable. I, and my co-conspirators, claim prior art.

It started out as a 'possible student research' thread and devolved into patents.

I repeat- if you're genuinely worried, use the PM system. If you're fishing...

[Dan Hintz]

Don't hold back, Darren, tell us how you really feel... ;)

[Martin Boekers]

Just what is the patent you are worried about?

There shouldn't be such mystery about an existing patent, unless you may be a lawyer setting up a defense by doing research on this forum:mad:

If you don't plan on filing for a patent yourself then please share the one with us that you are concerned with.

There are a bunch of laser patents out there. I haven't seen or heard of one in a court battle. (if someone has please share)

(Yes there is even a patent for engraving on cigars believe it or not check with the US Patent Office it's there)

[Peter Marks]

I am really sorry, i did not intend to start such a big mystery.

I did not want to disucss the company or the patent itself since i wanted to have somebody look into it first.

Again: I still do not want to claim ANY kind of patent myself.

As i cannot find an english version yet (and had a hard time reading the 'automatic translation' myself) and have someone looking into it, i will gladly get back soon.

Darren, pm to you.

[Richard Rumancik]

I don't think there is a reason to be so hard on Peter. I don't think he is doing anything wrong. He wants to make sure his business would be legitimate before he starts. Basic due diligence. Nothing wrong with that. Either he needs to licence the idea, determine that it is invalid, or has been abandoned. Makes good sense to me. Perhaps his question was a bit vague and people did not know which side of the fence he was on, and assumed the worst. Peter, no need to take any of this personally.

By the way, I don't think there is anything wrong with patents. If someone puts a lot of work, money, and other resources into an idea, they should be rewarded. That's how the patent system works. Yes, there may be some glitches but overall it serves a purpose. You make your idea public (effectively teaching others how to do it) in trade for exclusive use (and the right to license) for a certain period.

I think what people on the forum mainly object to is "patents" which involve nothing more than the "right" to laser onto a particular material, which most people view as frivolous. As in the right to laser denim, the right to laser brick, the right to laser bamboo or oranges, etc. Most people here assume that they should be able to laser anything that fits into their machine without violating a patent . . . the fact that someone found the necessary "settings" to laser a particular material does not in my opinion demonstrate novelty.

But personally I don't have a problem with say, Ferro/Degussa having a patent on Cermark. They had an idea, spent money on R&D, and came up with a product. It works. And yes, they have gone to court to enforce the patent.

If Peter or I or anyone else here comes up with a way (for example) of treating acrylic so it turns color when lasered, what will the reaction of this group be? Will they endorse it, (buy it or license it) or assume that they should be able to do it on their own? Peter said specifically early on that getting a patent was not his intention. However, I really don't object to Peter or anyone else on this forum getting a patent on a new idea (as long as it is novel and not obvious to those in the business).

[Martin Boekers]

I don't think we are being hard on him.

He just is asking alot of questions without a whole lot of information and that tends to make people nervous and wonder about motives.

Esp. when they want info but don't want to explain why.

I don't understand not wanting to share the patent info he is worried about. That send up red flags about motives.

Enough for my thoughts.

Wish you the best Peter, do you research and hope you find your niche:)

[Rodne Gold]

I don't believe the posting is in the spirit of free flow of info that is the underlying philosophy of these forums.

[Darren Null]

Relax guys- I've had a look and it looks like another 'brick patent' job. Peter wanted to do research but was being cautious to avoid possibly blowing himself out of the water later.

PM sent back Peter- sorry about the delay. We've had a couple of patent trolls on this forum attempting to tell us that we have to stop using this method or that material or send them cash...hence your mixed reaction.


I don't understand not wanting to share the patent info he is worried about. That send up red flags about motives.
What happens if your main business plan skirts or collides with some of the patent claims? It's the sensible thing to do to avoid drawing the patent holder's attention before you're ready. The way this one is worded, we're all in breach of it, all the time. Like normal. I can't see anything in there that is new or enforceable though.