Enter the Digital age

[Aaron Berk]

OK, so I see all this digital read out stuff all over the place, and I'm liking it. I've got a Wixey angle box that I use on my table saw, miter saw, radial saw,drill press, and any thing else I can think of to stick it on. Really slick little convenience tool, glad I got it.
So my next table saw purchase has built in digital angle read out and that's ok with me. I've seen allot of positives on the digital fence readout too. And I think I might spring for that, then next is the router with digital height. Then it hit me, if you can do height readouts on planers, routers, and drill presses. How about digital height on a cabinet saw? I'm looking into my future saw and it looks like the blade travels straight up and down on guide rods so it should be no big deal to rig the Wixey height gauge to this carriage right?

I mean how cool would that be? I know the high dollar euro sliders and professional stuff already has digital everything practically. So why not digital for the low buck wanna be?

Any one already done this yet? I can think of a hundred ways this would save me time instead of using a height gauge on top of the blade/table.


What say you?

[Rod Sheridan]

I have one of the wanna be machines, a Hammer, and it has a clock/digital gauge as an option.

I do like being able to set a height and not have to check it, you might be onto something with this idea...........Rod.

[Bill Arnold]

Measure twice, cut once! Will your digital gauge be EXACTLY the same as the tape you use? No! There are manufacturing tolerances for everything. One precaution one should always take is using the same tape for all measurements on a project. Using more than one tape could introduce minor, annoying discrepancies.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against digital devices. I have several and use them with confidence. I'm just not so sure about the degree to which a craftsman should rely on them in all situations. :confused:

[Aaron Berk]

Measure twice, cut once! Will your digital gauge be EXACTLY the same as the tape you use? No! There are manufacturing tolerances for everything. One precaution one should always take is using the same tape for all measurements on a project. Using more than one tape could introduce minor, annoying discrepancies.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against digital devices. I have several and use them with confidence. I'm just not so sure about the degree to which a craftsman should rely on them in all situations. :confused:

Very valid point, and I know we have all heard the no tape method of woodworking, right? It's called the story stick.
I'm not exactly suggesting total reliance on digital, only the added benefit of another tool in my arsenal. Sort of like the saying, "more than one way to skin a cat"

Personally I dislike the inconvenience of finding the crown of a blade to insure accurate height measurements.
I see setting the zero on the gauge as simple as placing a wide flat edge or similar item across the throat plate and running the blade up until it bumps. Presto, blade is zeroed for all following activities.

[Peter Quinn]

I'm on the edge of going digital on everything. Shaper, planer, TS fence and angle. The blasted hunt-n-peck method of tuning a set up is for the birds. My hands and eyes will still be the gauge of what tolerances are acceptable. The digital gauges are all about repeatability and accuracy.

Here's an example. I like to run a panel raiser on the shaper above the work. For double sided panels, every move you make doubles the effect. So you run a test piece to get in the ball park and you have a choice to make. Run it light on the first pass to see where your at, rip off the tongue, come up a bit, run it again, come up a bit more, etc. And god help you if you go over, you start all over again. Some shapers are crankier than others. But I know I want the panel tongue .007"-.010" under the groove depending on the size of the panel, so if my shaper height is digital, with a cheap set of calipers I can mic the panel tongue test piece and groove and hit that set up on the second run dead on no sweat, no hunt, no peck. I do this now occasionally with a dial indicator and magnetic base which is a minor PIA.

If you are going to use machines to do joinery where a few .001" 's makes a difference, and these machines have jack screws and hand wheels capable of being adjusted at those tolerances, then doesn't it make sense to give the operator some mechanism for seeing movements at that level? You can hunt and peck all you like. The first time I used a Bridgeport it was a revelation. Somehow they have had digital gauges on metal working machines for decades but it is brand new technology on wood working machines? Hmm.

Any big surprise that PM added digital height adjustment to their latest shaper? And several mid sized planers and lunch boxes now come with digital height gauges stock? Maybe the day will come where manufacturers will embrace the technology and end the snipe hunt? Thankfully it can now be retrofitted cheaply and quickly.

[Darius Ferlas]

One caveat of some so called "digital" measuring tools is that they still, in essence, use analogue technologies where it really counts.

If a digital gauge used some sort of laser feedback (or another uber precise technology) with a microchip interpreting it all and displaying the results on the readout then I'd consider such device a truly digital one. Unfortunately, in the relatively low tech measuring devices used in mainstream woodworking that would be probably rarity. Instead the distance is calculated based on very much analogue friction of mechanical elements such as micro cyliners, springs etc. These tend to be affected by various factors such as temperature or humidity.

In short, many "digital" measuring devices appear to be analogue devices with a digital displays.

[Aaron Berk]

I like you way of thinking Darious, but when wood is always moving any way, how perfect does a system need to be?

And if I'm not mistaken, Wixey isn't based on friction or analog principals. Please elaborate if I've misspoken

Quoted from the wixey site in reference to their TS fence set up.

How does it read? All of our readouts use what's called capacitive measuring technology. This is the exact same system that is used in almost all digital calipers that have been on the market for at least 20 years. There is a circuit board on the scale part of the device that has a repeating pattern etched on it. The readout portion has another circuit board with a similar pattern and the rest of the electronics. As the 2 patterns pass over each other there is an electronic signal generated that is converted to distance. The only moving part is the circuit board of the readout passing over the circuit board on the scale. There is no electrical connection between the 2 circuits boards and they do not even touch each other. There are no other mechanical moving parts. This makes the device very reliable and resistant to problems caused by dust.

[Aaron Berk]

This is what I want to put on my cabinet saw for blade height measurements


http://www.wixey.com/remote/gallery/index.html


Any one else already beat me to it :confused:

[Darius Ferlas]

Aaron, I certainly did not intend to discredit all, or any of the so called "digital" measuring devices used in woodworking. I own a couple of those, albeit none of the really expensive engineered by NASA ;). I bought them because of the convenience of the digital readouts.

Wixey states that the only moving part is the circuit board of the readout passing over the circuit board on the scale. Not trying to split hairs here but I'm not sure this is a precise or such an important statement. Based on the description and photos, the circuit board appears to be moving along a path created by the rails/tracks on both sides of the scale circuit. Those rails, seem to be metallic and as such they are subject to movements resulting from various factors such as temperature. I'm also not sure if the dust issue eliminated by the use of capacitance since dust is likely to be present in the path along the rails.

Capacitance itself may also change (and thus affect the results) for reasons such as component aging, vibrations (including those caused by sound waves, dust collectors come to mind) and again, by operating temperature.

Even though I don't consider $80 for a Wixey too expensive I don't have any of their instruments. Nevertheless, I'm sure that given tolerances expected in woodworking, and values of those various negative external conditions in a typical woodworking shop, any aberrations have little to zero (a farad here and a farad there, EDIT: see note below) bearing on the great precision of their products.

NOTE
It has been pointed out to me in a PM that I have incorrectly suggested that farads signify small changes.

[Chris Parks]

The one big advantage of digital on woodworking machinary for me is repeatability, nothing more and nothing less. I can dial in the same setting a week later and it fits exactly the same with no peck and try and hope it fits.

[John Coloccia]

re: different measuring devices giving different readings

In my shop, every mic, ruler and tape all agree with each other more or less perfectly. If I have a tape that's out of whack, I'll try to fix it (get inside/outside to match each other AND match everything else). Generally, though, if I have an unreliable measuring device, it's in the trash without a second thought. I expect 1" to be 1" no matter how I measure it. This is probably a hold over from my metal working days. As a machinist, you wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing that one of your rulers was off by 5 thou....

[John Harden]

My Felder has the digital saw and shaper height readout in LED. Pretty nice and it has standard blade height calibrations built in or you can do custom ones.

Push the button to raise the blade height just level with the saw table and zero the display. It's now set and always "on", even when the saw it unplugged. Never looses its settings.

Convenient for the saw, but much more so for the shaper.

You have a fast speed and slow speed button to move them. Fast moves the shaper or saw blade quickly and the slow option moves them in .005 increments.

Pretty slick.

I did not get the digital option for either the crosscut stops or saw fence. Just didn't think I'd ever need it.

If I change my mind, there are 2 or 3 options out there or I could buy the spendy Felder version.

I don't know of any retrofit kit for non-Euro saws, but there is probably something that could be cobbled together. You might start with these guys. http://www.proscale.com/products/woodworking.htm

Regards,

John

[Dan Friedrichs]

I'm also not sure if the dust issue eliminated by the use of capacitance since dust is likely to be present in the path along the rails.


These devices typically use an etched pattern on both the display and the rail. As the patterns overlap, they act like a variable capacitor which changes value as the display moves up and down the rail. However, the value of the capacitance is highly sensitive to the distance between the plates of the capacitor. To account for that (without having to always have the display the exact same distance from the rail), the etched pattern has a repeating sequence which the display detects, then linearly interpolates position based on those markers. The point being: dust, vibration, moisture, etc - none of them will affect this solid-state measurement.

Back to the OP...
I think that's a really great idea. I wonder why Wixey hasn't come up with a TS blade height measurement system, yet. You should try it :)

[Aaron Berk]

Like stink on a pig.

I'm turning 30 this February and SWMBO has promised me the saw of my choice. And I did a bit of haggling and also got an agreement for any bells and whistles that might be needed to make the saw more at home :D

So I'm all gung ho to put digital fence and height read outs on it.

Creekers keep your eyes pealed for one happy birthday boy this Feb. and I'll post any and all pertinent info and pics associated with said birthday.

[Mike Sandman]

I'd certainly like a digital readout for blade height, and the link to Wixey's web site showing the readout for router lifts has me thinking about how much more useful the lift would be with that readout.

Thanks, Aaron!

But as for a fence... I've had an Incra TS III for maybe 12 years and it has the advantage of being able to repeat a dimension exactly, every time, without any tweaking or fiddling to get the fence to the right place. It uses a toothed rack, sort of likerack & pinion steering. It's also very simle to re-zero when I change blades.

OK, the Incra fence is more expensive than a digital readout on the stock fence that comes with a saw, but it's at least as good and possible a better fence. And it never needs batteries.

Mike

[Aaron Berk]

You got me in my week spot Mike.

I've got an Incra 1000se miter, and absolutely love it. Incra is good stuff in my book.

My goal is to end up with the 52" TS-LS joinery system, and drop a router into my saw table.

But I know that the stock fence on the cabinet saw will be far better than the Craftsman fence I've been using.
Point being -------
I think I'll be waiting for another special occasion before splurging on the Incra goodies. So I may or may not go with the digital fence set up, but for 100 bucks it's not to much. Although that's also 100 less in the kitty for the Incra.


Too many choices:rolleyes:

[Greg Portland]

I stopped measuring a few years ago and my accuracy greatly improved. I use a story stick and existing parts to ensure my cuts are accurate.

[Neal Clayton]

so far i'm digital on the planer, and i use a digital micrometer to test everything else.

table saw fence isn't really feasible for me, since i remove the fence occasionally. my router table is attached to the saw, so often i'll take the fence off of the rail and move it around a bit to avoid having to change the height on the router, etc. thus i suspect i would have to re-zero it every time i removed it. digital height gauge is intriguing, i might look into that.

alot of dadoes involved with windows and doors, having the digital height readout there would probably be nice.

[Curt Harms]

The one big advantage of digital on woodworking machinary for me is repeatability, nothing more and nothing less. I can dial in the same setting a week later and it fits exactly the same with no peck and try and hope it fits.

One of the big impediments to my buying a combo machine was the need to move the planing bed in order to use the jointer. If I planed a bunch of stock 3/4" then moved the planer bed to joint something, how big a pain would it be to get the planer bed back to its previous setting? With a digital readout, not a pain at all. At least with the Wixey gauges, they're only as accurate as their calibration. As long as I'm careful with the calibration the accuracy and repeatability are quite good.

[John Coloccia]

One of the big impediments to my buying a combo machine was the need to move the planing bed in order to use the jointer. If I planed a bunch of stock 3/4" then moved the planer bed to joint something, how big a pain would it be to get the planer bed back to its previous setting? With a digital readout, not a pain at all. At least with the Wixey gauges, they're only as accurate as their calibration. As long as I'm careful with the calibration the accuracy and repeatability are quite good.

This is an easy one. When I have the setting I want, I stick a magnet on the frame just touching the pointer. To reproduce the exact setting I just move the pointer back up to touch the magnet. This works very well on my Jet JJP12.

[Curt Harms]

This is an easy one. When I have the setting I want, I stick a magnet on the frame just touching the pointer. To reproduce the exact setting I just move the pointer back up to touch the magnet. This works very well on my Jet JJP12.

Gadget factor is kinda low, though:rolleyes:

[Aaron Berk]

Well I've done it.

I made two aluminum brackets and mounted a grizzly digital height gauge to my 605X tonight:D
One bracket bolts to the rear vertical guide rod that guides the trunnion. And the other bracket bolts to one of the motor mounts.

My camera is over at our retail store but I'll be there tonight and will get pics up one here pronto.

Cause without pics:rolleyes:

[Glen Butler]

Measure twice, cut once! Will your digital gauge be EXACTLY the same as the tape you use? No! There are manufacturing tolerances for everything. One precaution one should always take is using the same tape for all measurements on a project. Using more than one tape could introduce minor, annoying discrepancies.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against digital devices. I have several and use them with confidence. I'm just not so sure about the degree to which a craftsman should rely on them in all situations. :confused:

Are you saying that you use your hand help tape to set the table saw fence instead of the readout tape on the fence rail of your saw? There is more error in the clip butting to something vs. pulling on something. My digital readout is more accurate than my eye can assertain between even 1/32" graduations on a tape measure.


Aaron, I certainly did not intend to discredit all, or any of the so called "digital" measuring devices used in woodworking. I own a couple of those, albeit none of the really expensive engineered by NASA ;). I bought them because of the convenience of the digital readouts.

Wixey states that the only moving part is the circuit board of the readout passing over the circuit board on the scale. Not trying to split hairs here but I'm not sure this is a precise or such an important statement. Based on the description and photos, the circuit board appears to be moving along a path created by the rails/tracks on both sides of the scale circuit. Those rails, seem to be metallic and as such they are subject to movements resulting from various factors such as temperature. I'm also not sure if the dust issue eliminated by the use of capacitance since dust is likely to be present in the path along the rails.

Capacitance itself may also change (and thus affect the results) for reasons such as component aging, vibrations (including those caused by sound waves, dust collectors come to mind) and again, by operating temperature.


I fail to understand your point with any of this. Your tape measure is also made of metal. Therefore subject to the same temperature changes. Your tape measure gets old, gets kinked, gets stretched over time with the constant pulling in and out. You might need to pull a little more to keep it clipped in a horizontal position.

This is woodworking people not rocket science. Not an engine running at 5500 rpm. We can handle a couple thousands plus or minus and turn out really fine work. The wood itself moves more than this.

I say get all the digital crap you want. And get several tape measures and keep one at each post so you don't have to constantly clip it back on, or walk back to your last post cause you forgot your tape.

Aaron I like your idea, and I am excited to see the pics of how you fashioned it. I for one have blocks set up for different dado depths using trial and error and a digital caliper (oops a different measuring device than my tape measure) and I just feel when the blade hits it. I don't think a readout would be very accurate for me because raise/lower device is an arc.

[Rod Sheridan]

One of the big impediments to my buying a combo machine was the need to move the planing bed in order to use the jointer. If I planed a bunch of stock 3/4" then moved the planer bed to joint something, how big a pain would it be to get the planer bed back to its previous setting? With a digital readout, not a pain at all. At least with the Wixey gauges, they're only as accurate as their calibration. As long as I'm careful with the calibration the accuracy and repeatability are quite good.

I spent the extra $100 on mine and have the mechanical digital readout on it.

It's repeatable to about 0.001" which is far better than me.:D

No problem hitting the same measurement if I have to set the planer back to the original measurement.

Regards, Rod.

[Noah Katz]

I believe the same can be said of DRO's used on metalworking machines.

These are small effects for standard machining, and totally in the noise for woodworking.


Wixey states that the only moving part is the circuit board of the readout passing over the circuit board on the scale. Not trying to split hairs here but I'm not sure this is a precise or such an important statement. Based on the description and photos, the circuit board appears to be moving along a path created by the rails/tracks on both sides of the scale circuit. Those rails, seem to be metallic and as such they are subject to movements resulting from various factors such as temperature. I'm also not sure if the dust issue eliminated by the use of capacitance since dust is likely to be present in the path along the rails.

Capacitance itself may also change (and thus affect the results) for reasons such as component aging, vibrations (including those caused by sound waves, dust collectors come to mind) and again, by operating temperature.

[Aaron Berk]

Ok here are the promised pics of the blade height readout. I wanted to go with the Wixey model, but I got the Grizz version for much cheaper. The total install time took about an hour, had to think where to mount the thing. I really like the magnetic display, I can stick it to the top of my fence rail and still slide lumber over it. The display is thin enough to not protrude above the table surface when rail mounted. I've just got it stuck down by the hand wheel for now.

I think I'll re-engineer the mounting brackets to something a bit more rigid, I'm worried the aluminum might flex, it's real thin stuff.

I think things turned out well, I've zeroed the gauge and then run the blade up to full height 3 times and got 4 and 1/32" each time. We'll see how this all holds up over time.:cool:

[Van Huskey]

I'd certainly like a digital readout for blade height, and the link to Wixey's web site showing the readout for router lifts has me thinking about how much more useful the lift would be with that readout.

Thanks, Aaron!

But as for a fence... I've had an Incra TS III for maybe 12 years and it has the advantage of being able to repeat a dimension exactly, every time, without any tweaking or fiddling to get the fence to the right place. It uses a toothed rack, sort of likerack & pinion steering. It's also very simle to re-zero when I change blades.

OK, the Incra fence is more expensive than a digital readout on the stock fence that comes with a saw, but it's at least as good and possible a better fence. And it never needs batteries.

Mike

I agree about the Incra, I much prefer it to digital because it goes EXACTLY where I want it to, however a "normal" T fence still has to be "tapped" into the correct place.

I like digital stuff and use it when I can, it isn't perfect BUT is is closer than most of our other measuring devices and more mportantly as humans we can see a display that says .250 a lot better than we can line things up with a line on a ruler.

[Alan Schaffter]

A bit of clarification- 99.9% of all digital being discussed here is not digital- it is analog displacement converted to a digital readout- whether it is tilt angle measured in relation to the center of the earth or other reference or whether it is distance measured as resistance, capacitance, etc. It is an analog value converted to digital readout. Pure digital happens in computers and deals only with numbers (actually 0's and 1's) and in its purest sense indicates one state (on) or another (off) like the data stream in your wireless remotes.

Only those distance measuring devices that actually count electronic tick marks (not capacitance, etc.) can be considered true digital.

Most of these devises contain a linear encoder. A pattern of bars is etched directly on a printed circuit board in the slider. Under the scale of the device another printed circuit board also contains an etched pattern of lines. The combination of these printed circuit boards forms two variable capacitors. As the slider moves the capacitance changes in a linear fashion and in a repeating pattern. The two capacitances are out of phase. The circuitry built into the slider counts the bars as the slider moves and does a linear interpolation based on the magnitudes of the capacitance to find the precise position of the slider.

Another point missed in this discussion, is that for geezers like me it is much easier to read a nice big digital display than 1/32" marks on a tape.

Digital (for woodworking) is only a problem if it is hard to obtain the information or is hard to apply it (setting the tool to that value).

By the way, I like digital and I like INCRA.

[Stephen Edwards]

I've got one digital measuring device that I use to check blade angles. I forget the name of it but it's the Peachtree woodworking one that looks like the more popular one.

I never ever use the tape that's on the saw fence. To set the saw fence to the blade I use a measuring tape or 3' steel ruler. I'm also a huge fan of story sticks for measuring.

Different stroke for different folks. I'm not knocking the digital devices. In fact I can see where they'd be very helpful in some situations.

I do like John's method of combining the high tech digital device with the low tech magnet! That's a good idea.

[Noah Katz]

A bit of clarification- 99.9% of all digital being discussed here is not digital- it is analog displacement converted to a digital readout....

True, but 's only of academic interest.

Analog is relevant if something can wear and change accuracy repeatability, but that's not the case with any of the devices being discussed, which use noncontacting encoders.

[Dan Friedrichs]

That is really, really cool, Aaron. After you've had a chance to use it a little more, can you report back on the accuracy and repeatability? I want one, now :)

[Alan Schaffter]

How about a quick, easy, and cheap, digital angle indicator for your TS?

Remove the attachment screw and the small (aluminum?) tilt angle pointer from the front of the saw. Replace it with a 1" wide piece of steel flat stock that is long enough so it extends past the banana slot and clears the height hand wheel at the front.

Set your blade to zero with a Wixey, Beal, etc. tilt box, then stick the tilt box to the piece of steel and zero it. Now as you tilt the blade the tilt box will indicate the angle.

Like all these units, it will stay calibrated until your battery runs down or you knock it loose :rolleyes:. If you have two tilt boxes, you can permanently attach one to the saw to avoid jarring it. It would be advisable to recalibrate for each session in your shop.

Now you have a more precise tilt indicator that you don't need to keep messing with and putting on and taking off your saw blade.

My biggest problems- my shop floor flexes a little which can affect calibration, and since this setup does not have a remote readout, I still need to bend over or kneel down to read it!