Cabinet Saw Advice Requested

[Dan Duperron]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

First of all, a huge thanks to the SMC community. I just discovered you recently and have stayed up WAY too late several nights just reading and learning. I was shopping for a drill press when I found the forums and the information here was invaluable.

Next up - A (probably) used cabinet saw. The last cabinet saw I had my hands on was in Junior High shop class, a big Rockwell. A LONG time ago :) Since then it's been mostly a decades-old Craftsman contractor saw with a fairly lousy fence. My local new & used machinery dealer has three saws of interest. All are within my price range, so I'm looking for advice on quality/value/preference/etc. Any would be a big step up, but I don't anticipate buying another saw any time soon - if ever - so I want to make the right choice. Any information or comments to help me decide or give me additional things to think about are very welcome. Options are:

1) Fairly recent vintage USED Powermatic 66 w/50" Biesemeyer style T-square fence. Very clean. $1895

2) USED Unisaw w/50" Unifence, not as sharp as the 66 but still in good shape $1295

3) NEW Steel City Model 35618 w/50" Biesemeyer style fence $1600
http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=12&tool=35618

Thanks!

[David Christopher]

Dan, welcome to the creek....out of the 3 saws that you have picked, I would choose the steel city..but for that kind of money Grizzly has alot of good saws in price range

brand new = waranty

[John Harden]

What year is the 66? Was it made here in the U.S.? I don't remember when they shifted production, but my guess is around 1999 or 2000?

My 1997 model made in Tennessee with Baldor motor ran perfectly for nearly 13 years before I sold it.

Absolutely wonderful machine that I'd recommend over cheap imports any day of the week.

Regards,

John

[keith ouellette]

For that kind of money you can get a new jet like this delivered.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2061081/19049/JET-Xacta-Saw--Right-Tilt--Model-JTAS-10X50-1.aspx

I have the same thing in a left tilt and really love it. When i bought it I compared it to a powermatic that was much more money and couldn't see spending extra on a pm that was probably made in tiwan just like my jet was.

Just a though

[george wilson]

I'd go for the Rockwell myself. I don't care for PM stuff.

[Jacob Griffith]

I would consider the first two options if they are older and American made. Just my two cents.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

There was a "is Steel City in trouble?" thread. Are they in trouble? There was a lot of discussions on that thread, but I don't remember if the answer was given. Something to consider. If the company goes under, waranty = useless.

What hp are they? If either the PM or Uni is a 5 I'd grab it. Riving knife? IMO the riving knife is the best of safety features. The older ones probably don't have one, but could have been added. 5 horse is nice.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Dan, do the used saws have guards and splitters/riving knives?

The Unisaw fence (if it's the one I'm thiking about is handy because you can position the fence to end at the saw arbour, which is nice for some operations.

I'd go with the Uni if it has the guard, splitter, adjustable fence and is in good condition.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. Don't worry if the saw is "only" 3 HP, that's more than you'll ever need in a home shop.

[scott spencer]

Once set up properly and equipped with a nice blade, they'll all serve you well. The PM and Uni may have a slight edge in build quality, but neither strike me a great deals for used saws. The Steel City's deluxe fence is extremely well regarded, but the other two are excellent also.

With that said, there are several new saws that I'd at least ponder...no reason not to get a riving knife if you're spending that much. The Grizzly G0690 (http://www.grizzly.com/products/g0690) or G0691 (http://www.grizzly.com/products/g0691) both sport riving knives and similar trunnion designs to the Steel City and Uni.

[Dan Duperron]

Gents,

You have already given me some things to think about, and raised some questions I can answer.


Nobody complaining that any of the prices are way out of line (high or low), that's good.
Good point about US vs. overseas, more on that in a sec.
New = warranty yes, but I have 30 days on the used stuff too.
Agreed 3hp is plenty, all are 3hp
Both used saws have the original gaurds as far as I can tell.
Most projects on the list for the next few years of weekends are cabinets, built-ins, that sort of thing. Lots of sheet goods work.
Nobody mentioned the SawStop as an alternate, although reading other threads it has some passionate advocates and this dealer has them. Comparisons?


As to US-made vs. otherwise, I do have a mild bias. I try not to be blinded by my biases just aware of them. In this case my bias is toward US-made iron. I drive a Japanese car and just bought a Chinese-made drill press (SC) that I'm very happy with, but if all else were equal it'd be US-made for me. Let's just say I grew up in the industrial midwest and am nostalgic for the days when this country made stuff.

However as they say "all else is NEVER equal". US-made will be a point in the PM66's favor if it is, I'll check.

My SC drill press was cheap because this dealer is about to stop carrying SC all together. When I asked they said only that they expected more unique work from SC and so far have mostly seen only 'me too' tools. Having several other lines in their arsenal already they don't feel the need to keep SC. Truth? The whole truth? Who knows.

Sorry to run on, I do that sometimes...

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I didn't mention the Sawstop because it wasn't on your list. I have the 5 horse ICS, it's a very nice saw. If you buy one, you won't be disappointed. Blade guard, riving knife is easy to swap out, so you won't think it's too hard to change, I'll just leave it off. Most times I just use the riving knife.
The only reason I mentioned if they were 5 horse to grab it, because IMO that would be a good deal. YES, 3 horse is plenty enough for anyone. A friend of mine just got a 5 horse vintage Uni. (for FREE) Must be worth some dollars. Need some fixing up, but, OH, that makes me just sick....:)

[Dan Duperron]

Well after reading the "is SC in trouble" thread here and one from <1mo ago on WoodNet I think sadly I've decided to steer clear of the SC. I don't think there is much in the way of unique parts on a big saw that can fail, but still I'm uncomfortable laying out that much cash for something for which parts might be unobtainable down the road. At least with a Uni, PM, or one of the JET or Grizzly parts won't be an issue.

That said the Steel City fence sure got some raves, wonder if I can just buy the fence and stick it on another saw ;)

I guess I'll have to go take a close look at both fence types on these saws and see if I have a strong preference.

[Jason White]

Ditto on what another poster here suggested. Check out Grizzly's line of cabinet saws. Terrific machines for the money. I have the G1023 and recommend it highly.

Jason


Well after reading the "is SC in trouble" thread here and one from <1mo ago on WoodNet I think sadly I've decided to steer clear of the SC. I don't think there is much in the way of unique parts on a big saw that can fail, but still I'm uncomfortable laying out that much cash for something for which parts might be unobtainable down the road. At least with a Uni, PM, or one of the JET or Grizzly parts won't be an issue.

That said the Steel City fence sure got some raves, wonder if I can just buy the fence and stick it on another saw ;)

I guess I'll have to go take a close look at both fence types on these saws and see if I have a strong preference.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Nobody complaining that any of the prices are way out of line (high or low), that's good.


Ok, then I'll do it :) I don't think any of those prices sound like a deal. They all sound quite high to me, considering that they're used. I see used good-condition Unisaws on Craigslist for <$1k all the time in my area.


That being said, I'd suggest:
- If you're interested in the safety features provided by the SawStop, buy one. A new PCS version is ~$3k, so you'd only be spending a little more money, and you'd be getting a saw that is exceptionally well-built (quality equal to or better than any of the saws you've listed). If it saved you from a serious accident, the extra money you spent would seem like pennies. You'd also get the whiz-bang fun of a brand new saw, and there are so few SawStops appearing on the used market that they hold their value very well if you ever decided to sell it.

-If you're not into the SawStop, look at something else new. Grizzly makes some very nice saws in this price range, complete with riving knives (an ESSENTIAL safety feature, IMHO). Even a fancy PM2000 is not much more than you're thinking of spending.

[Richard Andersen]

Even a fancy PM2000 is not much more than you're thinking of spending.

True. I was in the same position a few weeks ago. Found a brand new still in the box 30" PM 66 on craigs list. When I figured the cost of the PM66 plus mobile base it came to pretty much the same price as a new PM 2000 with Baldor motor I found (with current 15% off sale going on). Plus the PM 66 would have NO warranty, while the new PM 2000 would have 5yr warranty plus a riving knife.

[Don Morris]

I love my Grizzly 1023 left tilt, but if you're even considering the cabinet grade Sawstop, you just went over the $$$ line that kept/keeps most of us away from it. The safety, riving knife, construction, warranty, etc....what are you waiting for? Again, I'm really happy with my Griz, but if someone offered to trade me their Sawstop for my Griz, I'd jump on that in a heartbeat.

[Dan Duperron]

Thanks Don, actually $3K IS really hard for me to swallow. When I made that casual comment I was thinking perhaps there was a used market, or perhaps dreaming a little. Mostly I was a little surprised nobody had mentioned it, but I'm sure that's because they were being good and sticking to the parameters I set in the OP.

If I was comfortable laying out $3K for a saw I suspect this would be an entirely different conversation.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Thanks Don, actually $3K IS really hard for me to swallow. When I made that casual comment I was thinking perhaps there was a used market, or perhaps dreaming a little. Mostly I was a little surprised nobody had mentioned it, but I'm sure that's because they were being good and sticking to the parameters I set in the OP.

If I was comfortable laying out $3K for a saw I suspect this would be an entirely different conversation.


I won't lay the full SawStop sales pitch on you, but just consider that you're only talking about $1500 more for a brand new SawStop (versus one of the used saws you're looking at). The warranty, "new"-factor, and better quality alone may be worth that difference. If you ever cut yourself, $1500 might not even cover the deductable for your ER bill, assuming no permanent damage....

That being said, proper use of a saw with a riving knife and a guard you actually use gets you pretty close to the same level of safety, at much less cost.

It's easy to say since it's not my money, but don't get too caught-up in the cost. Any of these saws will hold their value very well, and should be able to be easily sold in the future for a good return.

Have you looked at a new PM2000?

[Gerry Werth]

Dan,
Any of the saws on your list are good, and the prices look reasonable based on your description. I just purchased the Grizzly 691 for $1215 delivered. this new saw has the riving knife...a great safety feature that is becoming the standard. Your three do not have that, but probably can be modified. You stated they are in your price range, but with the money you save, you can buy some other tools or accessories, and have a new warranty. I would be leary of buying a Steel City until they get their "mess" straightened out.