New Jointer and Table Saw- Both Start Rough...??!?!

[Matt Sollars]

Just got my table saw (1023sl) and jointer (G0593) wired up to 220v today.

When starting the jointer, i get a loud bang, then very smooth running. almost like a jerk/knock sound....then it runs great.

When i start the saw, i get a similar, but not as bad knock sound....but then i have some vibration while running....enough to rattle the handle of a screwdriver off the left wing.

Both are on 'temporary' bases...though i only think that would justify the vib. of the saw...not the initial knock on startup.

any ideas?

matt

[Jason White]

Welcome to 220 volts!

Feel the power!! :D




Just got my table saw (1023sl) and jointer (G0593) wired up to 220v today.

When starting the jointer, i get a loud bang, then very smooth running. almost like a jerk/knock sound....then it runs great.

When i start the saw, i get a similar, but not as bad knock sound....but then i have some vibration while running....enough to rattle the handle of a screwdriver off the left wing.

Both are on 'temporary' bases...though i only think that would justify the vib. of the saw...not the initial knock on startup.

any ideas?

matt

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

When starting the jointer, i get a loud bang, then very smooth running. almost like a jerk/knock sound....then it runs great.
....................
any ideas?

matt

Make sure the belts are tight.

[Richard Wolf]

Sounds like your belts may be loose. Check them first.

Richard

[glenn bradley]

Welcome to 220 volts!

Feel the power!! :D

All joking aside; watts is watts and your voltage does not effect your motor performance. The bang you describe on the jointer is probably belt slap. I don't know that this is a big problem on multi-belt machines. Can't speak to the tablesaw but, causes for that bang on my single belt 3HP machine were:

1 - Raw power distorting the belt on startup no matter how tight I got it. I cured this with a link belt. BTW, now is a good time to mention that too much tension is not great for your bearings, so don't over do it.
2 - The belt guard where the belt exits the lower cabinet had inadequate clearance to avoid being struck on startup and wind down. I cured this by elevating the guard to provide more clearance. You can see it at the tippy top of this pic. I just used a couple nets and washers to get it higher up. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=88752&d=1211053935)

[Brian Hughner]

Along the same lines, I have a Grizzly 593 jointer but I get the bang after I turn the jointer off and it is slowing down. Right before it stops, bang! Could this also be caused by a loose belt?

[Bruce Page]

Ditto checking the belts first.
Loose belts are the most common reason for the loud bang/knock you describe.

Congrats on the new machines!

[M Toupin]

As others have said, check the belts. Also, a loose pulley will cause the same symptoms. check that the set screws are tight on both pulleys.

Mike

[John Harden]

Motor design is also a big factor, if not the primary one. About 8-10 years ago there was a lot of fuss when Delta changed the motors on their 220V Unisaw's. They began exhibiting a terrible bang on start up, which wasn't just belt slap, though that was also a factor.

A link belt may help or even eliminate the sound due to its ability to absorb vibration. My PM, 15S planer did the same thing with it's cheap, Chinese/Taiwanese motor. A link belt got rid of most of the bang, but not all.

My PM-66 with Baldor motor started up smooth as silk for 13 years before I sold it. It still had the original, old fashioned belts on it that were there the day I bought it. Leeson's also do not exhibit this behavior.

Perhaps this is why these two brands are some of the most popular replacement motors when it comes time.

EDIT: Regarding the vibraton, I agree with the advice to check the pulley's. My 66 would do this every once in awhile when one of the set screws on a pulley had worked loose. I'd have to reset the pulley position and tighten both set screws. This is the most likely cause.

Regards,

John

[John Coloccia]

Along the same lines, I have a Grizzly 593 jointer but I get the bang after I turn the jointer off and it is slowing down. Right before it stops, bang! Could this also be caused by a loose belt?

Sure it's not just a loud click? You might be hearing the starter caps re-engaging. Your drill press motor probably makes the same sound though most people assume it's the belts. I say that only because visitors to my shop always ask, "Gee, is that just the belts 'releasing'? ", to which I answer, "I sure hope not!". :D

[Frederick Rowe]

My 4 year old Unisaw started with a bang when new. Belts were fine, switched to a link belt and the bang was gone. I believe the link belts eliminated the bang by stretching more than factory belts, thereby attenuating the motor start up.

[Cliff Holmes]

Definitely check the setscrews on the jointer's motor pulley. Note the plural, there are two of them on that one pulley. Mine had the same symptoms and tightening the setscrews took care of it.

[Brian Hughner]

Well, its pretty loud. Loud enough for me to hear through my ear protection. And it seems to have a pretty good shake to it as well. It happens just as the motor is coming to a stop.

[Pete Bradley]

New machines == new belts. I'd run them for a while to break them in before doing much.

On the machine that bangs on start, see if there's a spring, loose bolts, or something else that's supposed to be holding down the motor mount better than it is. I bet if you watch the motor on startup you'll see it jump a couple inches.

[Rod Sheridan]

Belts vary in quality, you get what you pay for.

As others indicated check the pulleys for loose set screws, keys etc.

If that doesn't cure the problem purchase a good quality industrial belt from a power transmission supplier.

Regards, Rod.

[Cliff Holmes]

Well, its pretty loud. Loud enough for me to hear through my ear protection. And it seems to have a pretty good shake to it as well. It happens just as the motor is coming to a stop.

Yep, sounds just like mine. When the motor brake would engage the belts would vibrate and slap against the side of the belt opening. As I said, just tightening the setscrews fixed it. Also double-check your belt tension.

[Brian Hughner]

Yep, sounds just like mine. When the motor brake would engage the belts would vibrate and slap against the side of the belt opening. As I said, just tightening the setscrews fixed it. Also double-check your belt tension.

Thanks, I'll check the setscrews first thing. I have a new replacement belt from Grizzly so I'll throw that on and make sure the tension is set correctly.

Appreciate the help!

[Jason White]

I agree with you on "watts is watts."

However, after switching from 110 to 220-volts on my contractor saw, there was a noticeable difference on startup. Came up to speed a bit faster and with a bit of a "bang," if that's even the right word to use. Maybe it was more like a "boom." :D The belt was in perfect condition and the tension was set properly.

Jason



All joking aside; watts is watts and your voltage does not effect your motor performance. The bang you describe on the jointer is probably belt slap. I don't know that this is a big problem on multi-belt machines. Can't speak to the tablesaw but, causes for that bang on my single belt 3HP machine were:

1 - Raw power distorting the belt on startup no matter how tight I got it. I cured this with a link belt. BTW, now is a good time to mention that too much tension is not great for your bearings, so don't over do it.
2 - The belt guard where the belt exits the lower cabinet had inadequate clearance to avoid being struck on startup and wind down. I cured this by elevating the guard to provide more clearance. You can see it at the tippy top of this pic. I just used a couple nets and washers to get it higher up. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=88752&d=1211053935)

[John Coloccia]

I agree with you on "watts is watts."

However, after switching from 110 to 220-volts on my contractor saw, there was a noticeable difference on startup. Came up to speed a bit faster and with a bit of a "bang," if that's even the right word to use. Maybe it was more like a "boom." :D The belt was in perfect condition and the tension was set properly, i.e more watts spent turning the motor and less watts spent heating it up.

Jason

If you're at 120V@15amps, you'll be 240V@7.5 amps, and of course the in-rush is much higher. I'm guessing the faster startup has to do with it's easier to shove X amps @ Y volts through a coil than it is to shove 2X amps @ Y/2 volts through a coil. I have to think that you get more torque at higher currents as well, for the same reason.

Keep in mind I've been teaching a class all day, it's late and I'm only giving this about 2 seconds worth of thought, but I believe the higher voltage will result higher efficiency even though you're operating at the same wattage.

Or is this completely wrong?

[glenn bradley]

Along the same lines, I have a Grizzly 593 jointer but I get the bang after I turn the jointer off and it is slowing down. Right before it stops, bang! Could this also be caused by a loose belt?

Yes. My G0490X had the bang on startup and at the end of slow down. Took the rear cabinet panel off and the belt guard and watched it in action. Once I saw what was happening it was fairly easy to fix. I do still have a bit of a "rattle" sound as the belt will just clip the guard on slow down now and again.

[Anthony Whitesell]

If you're at 120V@15amps, you'll be 240V@7.5 amps, and of course the in-rush is much higher. I'm guessing the faster startup has to do with it's easier to shove X amps @ Y volts through a coil than it is to shove 2X amps @ Y/2 volts through a coil. I have to think that you get more torque at higher currents as well, for the same reason.

Keep in mind I've been teaching a class all day, it's late and I'm only giving this about 2 seconds worth of thought, but I believe the higher voltage will result higher efficiency even though you're operating at the same wattage.

Or is this completely wrong?

From all my years in school, they never covered motors in this regard. But there's another oft forgotten point of view on the subject. That instant when you hit the switch, when it makes contact that first time the power hitting an inductive coil with 220 instead of 110. Granted the effective resistance is quadrupled when changing from 110 to 220V. But it's still a pretty decent change in the status quo (0V to 220V). Most 110-220 convertible motors have two sets of windings. In 110 mode they are wired in parallel and in 220 the are wired in series changing. If each winding had x ohms, then in 110 mode the effective resistance is x/2. In 220 mode the effective resistance is 2x. If resistance changes by a factor of 4. The nameplates on the motor show this as well. 120V@15A changes to 220V@7.5A. If the resistance didn't change, then doubling the voltage doubles the current. If the resistance doubled at 220V, then the current would stay the same. But it's half, so the resistance doubled again. There's the 4x factor.

It's a lot like the difference between dumping the cutch on a pinto versus a camaro. One will toss you around a little more.

I've never noticed that it got up to speed any faster, but it definately made more of a jump when I hit the switch after changing to 220.

[Matt Sollars]

Thanks for all the info guys. I tried to check the 'tension' before. Manual says let the weight of the motor pull to correct tension. I guess i just didn't feel like that was too tight, but i didn't know how to get it tighter. There's really no good way i saw to pull the motor down to put more tension on the belts....there may be a trick here you can share.

Gone all weekend, so i didn't get a chance to fire it up and check out visually what's happening. maybe i can talk my wife into helping.

thanks guys.

matt

[Tom Esh]

..Manual says let the weight of the motor pull to correct tension. I guess i just didn't feel like that was too tight, but i didn't know how to get it tighter. There's really no good way i saw to pull the motor down to put more tension on the belts....there may be a trick here you can share.
...

Sounds like mine. The weight of the motor provides adequate tension for operation without slip, but would still slap the guard on startup. Initially I just removed the guard, which also made it easier to turn the head for knife changes, though perhaps at the expense of a bit more dust in the lower enclosure. You can also add a little more with one of those bar clamps that can be reversed and used as a spreader. (Just be careful not to add too much and shorten the bearing life.) When I upgraded to a spiral head, I replaced the belt with a more flexible cogged type and reinstalled the guard.

[Matt Sollars]

sounds like......adjust tension...and if that doesn't work, get a link belt.

Thanks for all the posts guys, I really appreciate it.

Matt

[Cliff Holmes]

and if that doesn't work, get a link belt.

I tried a link belt on my jointer, *really* didn't like it. Much louder than a standard belt.