cabinet question

[Jeff Dunlap]

Hi all, I had a question about making kitchen or shop cabinets and wanted some feedback from th creek. I was wondering if this is a dumb idea, i do not want to make frameless cabinets, but i wanted to make faceframe cabinets with easier to mount drawer slides. I was wodering is it a dumb idea to make thinner rails to sit flush with the inside of of the carcass so you can mount the drawer slides directly to the carcass sides as opposed to shimming out of using brackets to attach to a cross memder in the rear. thanks in advance for any feedback.

[Ron Bontz]

My router table cabinet is built that way. I built the carcass out of 3/4" ply with 3/4" thick edging, not including the tenon. Tongue and groove cutters. All the pieces were cut to size first. Added the edging. Then cut the dados if memory serves me right. In effect you are adding thick banding to the edges. Seems like you could do that to kitchen cabinets as well, IMHO. :)

[Jamie Buxton]

Yep, that works. You just have to place the rear rail where the holes on the slides are.

[David DeCristoforo]

Another option is to bite a little extra material and double up the partitions.

[Sam Layton]

I just built a bathroom vanity, and doubled the partitions like Dave recommended. Works great. I am going to start my kitchen very soon and I will use double partitions.

Sam

[sean m. titmas]

keep your stiles the same width but just align the inside faces flush. I do this all the time when a job calls for face frame cabinets. frameless, or euro cabinets, are designed to maximize the space available by eliminating the wasted space behind a faceframe and using specific hardware. to keep it simple i flush up the inside face of the plywood boxes with the inside edge of the faceframes so that the hinges and slides can be located properly.

double partitions are a waste of material especially when there are adjoining cabinets. i keep my faceframes at 1.25" and use a full door as an end panel to finish off any exposed cabinet ends.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...double partitions are a waste of material..."

Not really. If you have two adjacent drawer stacks, for example, you need a flush partition on each side. If you shim out your drawer glides on one side or the other, you will use almost as much material and spend a whole lot more time.

[sean m. titmas]

instead of double partitions or shimming out the drawer slides i just use a single side panel flush to the inside and leave the space between the cabinets for the overhang. less material and less time.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Have you thought about using under mount slides.
fmr

[David DeCristoforo]

"...use a single side panel flush to the inside and leave the space between the cabinets..."

Works for ends but for partitions, it still leaves you with a flush panel on one side and a void on the other.

[sean m. titmas]

Have you thought about using under mount slides.
fmr
i like using under mounts because they combine the look of traditional woodworking with my European cabinets.

they still require the inside face to be flush but have a bigger visual impact.

[sean m. titmas]

"...use a single side panel flush to the inside and leave the space between the cabinets..."

Works for ends but for partitions, it still leaves you with a flush panel on one side and a void on the other.


on cabinets that have an interior partition i use 2 pieces of 1/2" back to back to and use a 1" stile.


EDIT: whenever possible i keep the single interior partitions to a minimum and make individual cabinets for each function(ie door/drawer combo, drawer bank, etc). with furniture pieces i use a single partition for one side and strip of 3/4" ply for the other. usually solid ply for the drawer slide side and ply strips for the hinge plates. that way it only requires a 3" strip at the front of the cabinet for the plates. face that with an 1.5" FF stile.

[Peter Rawlings]

May I suggest you use a rear clips like Alfit or Blum. If your sides are a little out of perpendicular with the frame, the rear mounting is a whole lot easier to get drawers to land flat on frame. You'll save yourself time, material and headache. Nothing is sacrificed. Sidemounting is best with euro system holes, or if using lineal ball bearing slides.

http://www.thehardwarehut.com/catalog-product.php?p_ref=1482

[Sam Layton]

"Double partitions a wast of material"

I don't think so... I guess if you think everything has to be built with the least amount of materials, and built in the least amount of time, = minimum standards.

I don't really care if I use a couple of extra sheets of plywood, or spend a little more time to get what I want, = high standards. To me, the end result really stands out.

I don't like frameless cabinets. However, I do like the euro hinges. So, I like using double partitions.

Sam

[Jason Yeager]

Could someone elaborate on the double partition idea please? I am lost.

Thanks :confused:

[sean m. titmas]

I guess if you think everything has to be built with the least amount of materials, and built in the least amount of time, = minimum standards.

I don't really care if I use a couple of extra sheets of plywood, or spend a little more time to get what I want, = high standards. To me, the end result really stands out.


That mindset is part of the many considerations that go into building cabinets but it is not the defining goal. with the volume i do i must be aware of my material waste and time usage otherwise all that extra time & material comes out of my profit margin.

minimum standards are there as just that, a minimum. it means no less but building in addition to those standards is acceptable.

[Jeff Dunlap]

Thanks for all the responses. I did think about the double partion idea i think its a good idea but if i am building alot of cabinets then i really don't want to double the amount of plywood i would use for the partions. also i did think of leaving the rails and stiles the same thickness and mounting carcass flush but i though if i did full overlay doors why do the need to be that thick you won't see the faceframe anyway, but that's the way i would go if if do it. The bottom mount slides or the brackets i have never used i always make my face frames 1.5" use 3/4 ply sides then use another strip of 3/4 ply running vertical toward the rear of tha cabinets, shimming out the side to the slides. I was looking to do it an easier way, because i still sometimes have to use 1/8 to 1/4 shims sometimes to make the drawer slide easier. I was thinking dirct mounting to the sides would be easiest as ,lond as the cabinet is square. If anyone has other suggestions i appreciate it. again thanks for all your feedback as always great ideas from everyone Thanks

[David DeCristoforo]

"Could someone elaborate on the double partition idea please? I am lost."

Assume that your face frame stiles are 1 1/2" wide and your carcase is built of 3/4" plywood. You have three options as to where to locate the partitions. Flush to the left side, flush to the right side or centered in the stile. With any of these conditions, you will have a "void" on one side or the other (or both if the partition is centered.) But if you double up the partitions, you will have a flush face on both sides of the stile. If the stile is wider than 1 1/2", you will have to use a spacer between the partitions. If they are less than 1 1/2", say 1", you will need to use a different thickness of plywood. Note that on wall ends, you only need to flush the carcase end to the inside. On finished ends you can do the same thing and use an applied finished end panel.

[bill mullin]

Jeff, as you can see, there are many ways to build your cabinets, so do them how you like.

One thing I, just me, not speaking for anyone else:) would avoid, is making the frame flush with the box on the outside. If you are using 3/4 for the carcass, I would use at least 1" for the frame, and flush it on the inside, leaving 1/4" overhanging. Making frames flush on outside would in effect make them "frameless", which, IMO are more of a PITA to hang. I will admit to only installing about a dozen kitchens worth of frameless cabs., so I may not have gotten the hang of it, so to speak, but I've cussed them every time.

[Nick Lazz]

Thanks for all the responses. I did think about the double partion idea i think its a good idea but if i am building alot of cabinets then i really don't want to double the amount of plywood i would use for the partions. also i did think of leaving the rails and stiles the same thickness and mounting carcass flush but i though if i did full overlay doors why do the need to be that thick you won't see the faceframe anyway, but that's the way i would go if if do it. The bottom mount slides or the brackets i have never used i always make my face frames 1.5" use 3/4 ply sides then use another strip of 3/4 ply running vertical toward the rear of tha cabinets, shimming out the side to the slides. I was looking to do it an easier way, because i still sometimes have to use 1/8 to 1/4 shims sometimes to make the drawer slide easier. I was thinking dirct mounting to the sides would be easiest as ,lond as the cabinet is square. If anyone has other suggestions i appreciate it. again thanks for all your feedback as always great ideas from everyone Thanks

Jeff - if you are set on face frame cabinets, then using a high quality undermount slide (i.e Blum Tandem or Grass Elite) would probably work best. Besides, why go to the trouble of building nice cabinets only to put cheap hardware in them? The easiest way to mount these in a FF cabinet is to use their rear mounting brackets. This will compensate for slight variations in squareness, however blocking out flush to the face frame is probably a little stronger and you would really have to be out of square a ways for the slides not to work.
One side of the partition will usually be flush with the FF if you double up your partitions, but that will not equate to "doubling" your material usage. I double partition all my cabinets, especially on Euro style because I think it looks better.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...I double partition all my cabinets, especially on Euro style because I think it looks better..."

Here's an interesting point. If you build "Euro" style (or "Frameless" or "Full Overlay" or whatever you call them) cabinets, these are typically made as "modular". So if you build four 24" modules to make up an eight foot cabinet run, you will have eight ends. If you build the same cabinet as a "monolithic" carcase and double the partitions, you will have two ends and three doubled partitions. Exactly the same amount of material.

[Anthony Anderson]

I am not sure what everyone is calling a partition. I am not a pro cabinet builder, but I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday either. Can someone please enlighten me.

I am familiar with the parts of a cabinet:

Left/Right Side
Bottom
Top (solid or front and back stretchers)

Rail and stile for the face frames, with possibly a vertical center divider (if double doors)

But I am at a loss for this "partition".

I am trying to figure out if I am missing out on an easier way to do something.

Thanks, Bill

[David DeCristoforo]

Partitons are simply vertical panels that divide the cabinet spaces. For example, if you build a four foot long cabinet, and want a 2' drawer stack next to a pair of doors, you need a partition between them.

[Anthony Anderson]

Partitons are simply vertical panels that divide the cabinet spaces. For example, if you build a four foot long cabinet, and want a 2' drawer stack next to a pair of doors, you need a partition between them.


Thank you David. I should have been able to figure that out. I must have had one of those DOH! moments.

Regards, Bill

[frank shic]

danny proulx's book on building kitchen cabinets has just the right dimensions to do what sean mentioned. i believe he makes the rails just 1/16" or 1/8" narrower than the cabinet so that it guarantees overlap coverage of the sheet stock.

[Dennis Hatchett]

May I suggest you use a rear clips like Alfit or Blum. If your sides are a little out of perpendicular with the frame, the rear mounting is a whole lot easier to get drawers to land flat on frame. You'll save yourself time, material and headache. Nothing is sacrificed. Sidemounting is best with euro system holes, or if using lineal ball bearing slides.

http://www.thehardwarehut.com/catalog-product.php?p_ref=1482

Peter has it right. Rear mount clips are the simple way to go and you don't sacrifice the material in the face frame. Flush face frames just are not as attractive to me, but taste is subjective.

Cut a piece of 2 inch plywood 7/16 wider than your drawer opening. Screw or staple a right and left clip to the long edges and then put it in the opening. Simply screw the front of the guides the the sides of the drawer opening and you are ready to push the plywood piece to the back of the cabinet and secure it from the back if it is not yet installed. If someone is helping you, you can even put the drawer box, with the front attached and corresponding slides installed, into the slides before the plywood with the clips is fastened to the back. Then have your helper raise and lower the back until it sits in the best position.

No shimming required.