Cabinet saw or Dewalt hybrid????

[John Shuk]

I need some heavyweight advice here. I went by the local tool store here The Tool Nut today and wanted to visit what is in my mind MY table saw. I have had my eye on the Dewalt hybrid with all the bells and whistles ie: sliding table, outfeed table... all for about $1400 or so. Then I see a Jet cabinet saw with 3hp 50" Xacta fence, and Jessem Router lift and a Bosch 2 1/4hp Router for $1699. I say to LOML "such a deal" and she says "well if I get the couch I've been lusting over for the spare room then ok" Now question is Is the Jet a nice saw? I've heard great things about the Dewalt. I like the sliding table I like the 2 tables and I like the total package for the price. I know it has less hp than a cabinet but I like the +'s. It even looks cool. I also think a router table with lift which is in the future for me is an awesome addition. the price difference isn't the world to me thanks to the Overtime gods. What do I do???? Please help I'll post pictures :confused: I promise.

[Bob Reeve]

I have the Jet 3 hp cabinet saw. It is smooth heavy and has plenty of power. I got a deal on it used with outfeed table and 6" jet jointer for 1700 plus some extras. I think the Dewalt is a good saw too. Either way you will be happy but IMHO as Tim Allen would say "more power"

[Tim Morton]

OK. I'll be the first...have you looked at the Grizzly or Bridgewood saws yet? :D

[Jim Becker]

Tim's advise is good, but I'll chime in that the Jet has never failed me and has stayed absolutely true since I got it almost five years ago...despite repeated shop rearrangements. Solid as a rock.

[Ken Garlock]

Hi John. Be sure to take a look at the Bridgewood 10LTS cabinet saw. I took delivery on mine last month, and it is 3hp and 460 pounds of get-up-and-go. Since you are in NY and BW is on PA, shipping should be peanuts(my shipping was $210 including a power tailgate truck. :( )

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Regardless of which cabinet saw you check out, I'd buy one of them over the Dw anyday of the week. I just finished cutting two sheets of Oak ply with the greatest of ease on my new Griz 1023s...there's no substitue for power! :D :D :D

[Steve Clardy]

Whatever brand you choose, I would suggest a 3hp cabinet saw, not an over rated contractor saw. In the long haul, you won't regret having the big table and horse power.
My ol Griz 1023S has been a faithful companion used almost daily since 1994.

Steve

[Ellen Benkin]

I have the Jet Supersaw (the other hybrid). Although it meets my needs now, I would definitely have gotten a cabinet saw if I had the money for it. So I guess it's now time to start comparing cabinet saws . . .

[Dennis McDonaugh]

John, I have a Jet cabinet saw and it is in a different class than the Dewalt. Not necessairly better, just different. More power, heavier, smoother, but with less bells and whistles than a tricked out Dewalt.

I don't think you can go wrong with any of the cabinet saws on the market. The Grizzly is cheaper than the Jet, but I think you get what you pay for in some respects. I own a Grizzly 8" jointer because it was $400 cheaper than the Jet or Delta. It was my first and last Grizzly tool, but not because it was really deficient in any way. I had a few problems with shipping, fit and finish was not as good as Jet's and it doesn't run as smooth as Jet and Delta jointers I've used. Overall I decided I'd have probably been happier spending the extra $400 bucks for the Jet or Delta.

[John Shuk]

I haven't checked Bridgewood or Grizzly although I have looked at Grizz in the past. I like the idea of going with my local vendor as he always has the best price (which is rare) and can help with any issues. I guess I always thought I would someday get a Unisaw but for the money either of these packages look awesome. I just wonder about the Xacta fence on the Jet. Any opinions on it? I think that the Router lift / table is going to get me where I need to be faster than the sliding table for the money. FOR THE RECORD IT IS AN XACTA LIFT. Not a Jessem.

[scott spencer]

The Jet is a decent cabinet saw, and IMO any decent cabinet saw is in a different league than any hybrid. You gain alot more than you give up with the Jet deal, and you can always add a slider to the cabinet saw when the OT Gods smile your way again. A good local dealer is a Godsend in itelf!

Keep us posted!

[Dan Stuewe]

Something that hasn't come up yet...with cabinet saws (at least "real" ones)besides the power you have a structure underneath the table that is much better than what is found under most (all?) contractor/hybrid saws. (Even Jet sells a cabinet saw with a contractors saw's guts.) The way I understand it on the contractor saws the trunion (the part the tilts and raises/lowers the blade) is attached to the underside of the cast iron table. So getting the blade parallel to the miter slots is a challenge. Once it is there there can also be problems with tilting the blade and having the blade tilt in plane so everything remains parallel. With a cabinet saw, all the guts are attached to the cabinet, so basically all those moving parts are much more rigidly mounted.

Now just to throw a new wrinkle, the new top of the line Sears table saw is a hybrid the has the guts attached to the cabinet. I'm pretty interested in that one, but that Craftsman name scares me too!

Dan

[Dennis McDonaugh]

John,

You won't have any probelm with the XACTA fence. Its easy to adjust, accurate and rugged. Can't comment on the lift.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

I have never used the DeWalt and will not pass judgement on it. That said, I suggest a look at the Shop Fox. A 3 hp cabinet saw with a good fence, local dealer and a 2 year warranty. It's in that price range. Really like mine.

[Brian Hale]

Wilke machinery is open from 9am till noon on Saturdays. It's well worth the trip down to see the different brands of saws on the showroom floor with the tops removed. One glance at the different castings and mountings and you want the Bridgewood, hands down. I did.

Not affiliated with them. I do have 4 of their machines in my stable though.....

Brian

[Joe Scarfo]

Given the choices.. I would have to seriously consider the cabinet saw. The extra mass the cabinet saw has over the hybrid makes it a much more stable platform.

I used the DeWalt hybrid saw in a Woodcraft cabinet making class. I loved the sliding table feature, it was awsome.

I did not like how small the saw felt. The top felt smaller, the outfeed felt smaller and the side extension felt smaller. Even though the saw had a 52" fence, it just felt smaller than my Unisaw's equiv set up.

Did I mention that DeWalt sliding table was awsome?

Good Luck w/ your choice. My instincts are you would be happy with either unit.

Joe in Tampa...

[Joe Scarfo]

Given the choices.. I would have to seriously consider the cabinet saw. The extra mass the cabinet saw has over the hybrid makes it a much more stable platform.

I used the DeWalt Hybrid saw in a Woodcraft cabinet making class. I loved the sliding table feature, it was awsome.

I did not like how small the saw felt. The top felt smaller, the outfeed felt smaller and the side extension felt smaller. Even though the saw had a 52" fence, it just felt smaller than my Unisaw's equiv set up.

Did I mention that DeWalt sliding table was awsome?

Good Luck w/ your choice. My instincts are you would be happy with either unit.

Joe in Tampa...

[John Miliunas]

Another vote for the BW 10LTS at Wilke's and, at the very least, a cabinet saw! The stability, smoothness and raw power simply can't be matched by a contractor or pseudo-cabinet saw. :) Personally, I'd go with the cabinet and, when the funds do grow again, instead of the slider, I'd probably opt for one of the fantastic saw guide systems (The "F" and "E" camps...). They do a great job at handling the sheetgoods, PLUS, give you the added feature of portability. :) Best of luck in whatever your choice ends up being! :cool:

[John Weber]

John,

Either way I think you would be pleased. My Dad choose the DeWalt with all the bells over a Unisaw 2 years ago and is still very happy. You get a bit more for your money with the hybred then a simple cabinet saw. The cabinet saw typically gives you a heavy solid machine, plenty of power, and as excellent fence (at least the better Biesemeyer clones). The DeWalt gives you both a side table and out feed table, excellent miter gage, superior dust collection, an awesome sliding table, and a well built and designed tool. For the money the DeWalt offers a lot of bang for the buck. I have a Powermatic 66, and the DeWalt can cut just as well with a good blade. For hobby use the DeWalt would be plenty. Most earlier Unisaws only had a 1 or 1-1/2 hp motor. Good Luck either way.

John

[Bob Marino]

John,

I have the Dewalt with the mobile base, 52" rails, extension table and the slider. When I bought it about 4 years ago, I needed saw that would fit flush against my garage/shop wall and I felt at that time, as well as today, that it's a fine saw, better than the contractor saw, but not up to the power, mass and solidity of a true cabinet saw. I wanted a sliding table and I really like the Dewalts and no way would I have room for a full slider, so then DW slider sufficed for the smaller crosscuts. Then enter Festool as my solution to long, straight, accurate and safe cuts, withh nary any dust.
Having said that, if I were you, I woud get a cabinet saw rather than the DW hybrid, for all the excellent reasons mentioned in prior posts.

Bob

[Ed Moehlenpah]

I guess it depends on what you are doing. If you are cutting plywood, stuff under 1 inch, the dewalt is great. The sliding table can be very nice. However, if you are using even a good blade through 2 plus inches of oak, the saw can be underpowered. I've used a powermatic 66, (5 hp) and that's what I'd get if I had another choice.

Ed

[Keith Christopher]

I have the Dewalt saw and I have no issues with it (other than the mitre gauge). I would recommend if you get it wire it for 220 as it really makes a difference. I (like any woodworker should) keep it tuned and true and with the new osborne mitre gauge, it is working flawlessly for me.

when I ran it at 110-115 I was ripping a 8/4 piece of white ash -without the splitter installed D'oH!- and it pinched the blade and stopped it. but I repeated that when wired for 220 and it ripped right through it.

I will upgrade to a full cabinet saw someday, when I need to, but I like buying tools when I will need/use them not just for the sake of having the latest/greatest.

Good luck on your decision.

[Michael Ballent]

I guess I will chime in on the discussion... I own the DeWalt TS and love it. I purchased it about 3 years ago and I have not had any problems with it. Made in USA unlike the Jet. If you get the Jet you get a 3HP cabinet saw without an outfeed, and without a slider. When I purchased mine I decided to get the 30" rails due to space considerations. Alignment of the saw takes only a few minutes. The fence has 2 bolts on the top that you loosen and to align it to the miter slot, and on the trunion you loosen 2 bolts on there, tap and tighten. The alignment stays put for a long time. Yes it is not a cabinet saw, but unless you are a production shop I do see any real advantage to a CS to the DW hybrid. Just my 2 cents :)

[Ed Falis]

Hi John. Be sure to take a look at the Bridgewood 10LTS cabinet saw. I took delivery on mine last month, and it is 3hp and 460 pounds of get-up-and-go. Since you are in NY and BW is on PA, shipping should be peanuts(my shipping was $210 including a power tailgate truck. :( )

Congrats on joining the club. Ken! I've had one of these almost 2 years now, and have 0 regrets.

- Ws

[Kent Cori]

Another strong vote for any one of the good cabinet saws mentioned above. Just try finding any owner of one of these cabinet saws who doesn't love his particular one. Why spend that much money on an underpowered compromize?

[mike lucas]

I choose the powermatic model 66 when it came time for me to upgrade from a sears contractor saw. But for most that would be major overkill. I am sure that if your intentions are to always be a hobbist that a hybrid like the DeWalt will suite you just fine. And chances are that it will out last you.

I would never want a sliding unit on a table saw unless it was a room issue. I plan to purchase an upright panel saw some day for the large sheet goods, but that is because I have the room, and do this to make a living.

If you think that down the road you will be making a go at woodworking full time, I would recommend you either get a really good cabinet saw now and be done with it. Or get a $500-$800 contractor saw so you can upgrade when the time comes. (That is what I did.) If you spend $1400 on a hybrid now, you may not be able to get out from under it when you do need to upgrade. These saws have not been around long enough to know how they will hold resale value.

To be sure, you need to go ahead and buy the Powermatic model 72. You will never need to upgrade, and you will never move it;)

[John Shuk]

Well,
I think I'm going to pull the trigger on the............drumroll please......Jet cabinet saw with the router lift. I was liking the bells and whistles on the Dewalt and think it is an incredible value as it sits but I want to do alot of work with rough lumber down the raod and I think the extra power will do it for me. Now if I can keep Ben Franklin from squinting too much when I finally open my wallet then I'll kill 2 big birds with one stone. I promise pics will follow. I did a little looking at some other stuff but My local store is there and if something is wrong I just put it back in the pickup and bring it back to him. After what I went through with Laguna that is a big load off of my mind.

[Rich Konopka]

I have a Delta CS and I looked at the Dewalt when I purchased my TS. I bought the Contractor saw because I am a hobbyist and the Dewalt was too new. I did not hear the positives that I am hearing about it now. I made the mistake of not getting a cabinet saw. I have dust control issues and I regret my decision. Although it is a good saw I did not look to the future and I tried to be conservative.

Since then I have chosen more wisely with my BS, DP, Jointer, and planer. I will probably upgrade to a cabinet saw inthe future. I will look for the best my money can buy and what I can fit in my basement.


BTW, a friend on the wreck bought a General (~$1200) and he loves it. Absolutely loves it. It is strange I did not hear or see one post on it.

[Jim Becker]

John, I think you're picking a fine machine...mine has been great. And dealing with your local retailer is also nice...I'm not sorry that I did that for the Jet and Delta products I've owned. They have taken very good care of me.

[Steve Clardy]

Well,
I think I'm going to pull the trigger on the............drumroll please......Jet cabinet saw with the router lift. I was liking the bells and whistles on the Dewalt and think it is an incredible value as it sits but I want to do alot of work with rough lumber down the raod and I think the extra power will do it for me. Now if I can keep Ben Franklin from squinting too much when I finally open my wallet then I'll kill 2 big birds with one stone. I promise pics will follow. I did a little looking at some other stuff but My local store is there and if something is wrong I just put it back in the pickup and bring it back to him. After what I went through with Laguna that is a big load off of my mind.
Good decision. You will enjoy the horse power and larger tables. Get you a roll stand for it, or make one. Makes moving them to clean or re-arrange really nice. I have one under my 1023s. Doesn't get moved much, but sure is easy when I do.
Steve

[Chris Padilla]

when I ran it at 110-115 I was ripping a 8/4 piece of white ash -without the splitter installed D'oH!- and it pinched the blade and stopped it. but I repeated that when wired for 220 and it ripped right through it.
Keith,

This is very curious as changing the wiring does ZERO for power output. The HP stays the same.

*******************************

Cabinet saw is the way to go...it'll last longer because it is beefier than a contractor saw and Griz probably has the best price going for a cabinet saw. 3 HP will take care of most hobbiest needs. You can get a 1023 Griz out the door for under a grand...no need to spend >1 k for a Jet, General, or Powermatic. However, the Jet deal with all the extras doesn't sound too bad. Just do your homework to make sure all the numbers work for you.

[Jim Becker]

Get you a roll stand for it, or make one.
Good point...and you should have it before or at the same time you receive your saw as you want to acutally "build" the machine on the mobile base...VERY heavy to lift after the fact!!

[Steve Clardy]

[QUOTE=Chris Padilla]Keith,

This is very curious as changing the wiring does ZERO for power output. The HP stays the same.

*******************************

Chris-Chris-Chris. SHeeshhh. Thought I raised you better than that Brother.:eek:
It DOES make a difference. I have a jet 6x89 edge sander, wires both ways.
Pine will stall it out on 110. Wired 220, it eats it like candy.:D
Guess 'll havta fly over there and get you straightened up. :eek:
Steve:)

[Chris Padilla]

Hold on...they are on different breakers, then. Was the 120 Vac outlet a 15 or 20 amp one? Going to 240 V, you might have been on a 30 amp breaker but 20 amp is certainly possible, too.

So, yeah, get out your electrical engineering text and let's have a go at it!! You are a pretty slender guy...I think I could take ya! ;)

[Kelly C. Hanna]

It's not necessarily a more power issue with 220 vs 110, but it does make the saw less likely to stall. I wish I had saved the explanation I was given once, but Steve is right.

Making the Jet choice was a good one! You won't be sorry you got the 3hp cabinet saw at all. Jet is a fine tool maker, I considered that one myself.

[Steve Clardy]

Hold on...they are on different breakers, then. Was the 120 Vac outlet a 15 or 20 amp one? Going to 240 V, you might have been on a 30 amp breaker but 20 amp is certainly possible, too.

So, yeah, get out your electrical engineering text and let's have a go at it!! You are a pretty slender guy...I think I could take ya! ;)
Yea. Yea. Different breakers.
Machines that come pre wired for 110 and 220, just use the appropriate plug. Then pull cover off of motor and read instructions and wire to what you want.
Most machines that come this way, are wired to run on 110.
If you want 220, then the wiring change is made at the motor. Same switch, as the switches are 220 switches.

[Chris Padilla]

I wish you could remember it, too, Kelly, because I cannot comprehend what would be such a significant difference. However, I'm all ears/eyes! :D

[Steve Clardy]

I wish you could remember it, too, Kelly, because I cannot comprehend what would be such a significant difference. However, I'm all ears/eyes! :D
Brother Chris.:eek:
Electrician I am not, but I do all of my own. So--I cannot explain the proper terms to you on this. So--Lets go this way.:rolleyes:
Take that 2-barrel off your hotrod, install a 4-barrell.:eek: Twice as much gas with your foot buried in the floorboard. Makes aa lot of difference.

[Jim Becker]

Chris is correct...to a point. With everything being equal, most dual-voltage motors will have the same horsepower and do the same amount of work regardless of input voltage. When you do the math, 120v x 20 amps and 240v x 10 amps (because each hot carries half the total amperage) = the same number...2400 (watts?). That said, there can be other differences that affect performance, such as the effect of the wire, itself, when higher amperages are being pulled. Wire size and length apply here. 10 amps on each hot conductor under 240v (same wire gauge assumed) is easier on the wire, heat-wise, than the 20 amps under 120v. Heat creates resistance (which is exacerbated by distance) and under heavy loads it can affect power delivery to your motor. You don't notice it when the machine is loafing along on easy tasks, but start making challenging cuts and the amperage draw goes up to where the wire can make a difference.

Another interesting thing is that the dual voltage motors run internally on 120v, regardless of the input setup being 120v or 240v. It's how the electricity gets to the motor and why local conditions will sometimes cause machines to work better on the higher voltage, but lower amperage configuration.

There have been a few motors, such as one that Delta has/had on a contractors' style saw that actually were designed to have more horsepower under 240v. It was a matter of how the windings were done on that motor design that provided 1.5hp under 120v and 2hp under 240v.

[John Weber]

Jim is correct, but I find it hard to believe the resistance differences would be enough to notice. 220 volt circuits are more a matter of economy. It's cheaper to run two smaller hot legs then a single large leg for a given amp load. There are a lot of variables involved in a motor stall; (120/220) being just one of them. As for a sander, I would think type of wood, old belt vs new belt, grit, type of sanding (long grain, end chain, edge, face), and sanding force would all have a much greater impact then motor voltage with a proper circuit.

John

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Steve, I like your analogy and you're right about the difference a four barrel makes, but I wonder how many of these guys (who no doubt don't drive carbureted cars) can relate? :rolleyes: While the 4-bbl will increase the HP number a bit, the 220 connection doesn't, but it does reduce the load on the motor & wiring by dividing the amps in half....hence less stalling and the illusion of more power.

I am going to search for the printed answer Chris, cause now I want to know the terminology....I sure hate CRS (Can't remember s...well you get the idea).

[Jim Becker]

I sure hate CRS (Can't remember s...well you get the idea).
These episodes are also called Premature Senior Moments...:o

[Steve Clardy]

Steve, I like your analogy and you're right about the difference a four barrel makes, but I wonder how many of these guys (who no doubt don't drive carbureted cars) can relate? :rolleyes: While the 4-bbl will increase the HP number a bit, the 220 connection doesn't, but it does reduce the load on the motor & wiring by dividing the amps in half....hence less stalling and the illusion of more power.

I am going to search for the printed answer Chris, cause now I want to know the terminology....I sure hate CRS (Can't remember s...well you get the idea).
Right on Kelly. I am with you. I can relate to the 110-220 issue. Though I cannot spit out the phrases and words that Becker has, and I cannot really argue that it DOES or DOES NOT increase horsepower, I do know that is does make a lot of IMPROVED difference by going with 220 over 110.
And I agree with Weber stating it is an ecomonic thing also. Much easier on the electric bill, pulling less amps. If I had my way and could start over again on equipment, everything would be 220, and probably 3-phase.
Steve:)

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Just a quick search and I found this answer to someone's Q about 220v vs 110v...

Personally, I'd have it wired for 220. (Just remember that you have to make some adjustment [jumper or whatever] on the motor itself.) As was previously mentioned, the "voltage drop" will be lower"... actually, 220 draws half the amps that 110 does. What causes the voltage drop is that the amperage will exceed the limits of the wire and the circuit, and the voltage drops. This not only could trip the circuit breaker, but puts a heckuva strain on your motor and the shop wiring.

So, the primary reason for going with the higher voltage is to cut the amps. I believe your saw is rated pretty close to 15 amps. Larger gauge wire can handle more amps (12 gauge is normally used for 110 volt line with a max of 20 amps). This is sort of like having a larger diameter pipe if you want more water flow. Increasing the pressure behind the water will increase the flow, but also risks splitting the pipe. Likewise, increasing the amp draw on a wire, due to demand, will risk overheating the wire. This happens when first starting the saw or when the saw is under load. Either situation dramatically increase the amperage.

On a 20 amp circuit you're probably okay, but at 110 volt, a 15 amp motor under load will quickly approach the 20 amp limit of the circuit. Theoretically, the same motor at 220 volts will draw less than 8 amps, which gives you substantial margin. The motor will run more efficiently and you will stay well under the limits of the wire.

Hope this helps,

[Jim Becker]

Much easier on the electric bill, pulling less amps.
Not so. You are using the same total amperage...it's just split over two legs. And since you are also consuming the same number of watts (what you pay for)...the bill will be identical. 3-phase is the same way. A watt still costs you the same no matter how you consume it.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

You're right Jim, they sure are....alarming to say the least....:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Steve Clardy]

Not so. You are using the same total amperage...it's just split over two legs. And since you are also consuming the same number of watts (what you pay for)...the bill will be identical. 3-phase is the same way. A watt still costs you the same no matter how you consume it. I'll have to argue that. Sure. Pulling same amps, but less load on motor reduces electrical usage.
Tell me why my 5-hp converter, running a 1 1/2hp 3-phase collector, AND a hydraulic lathe with a 3hp and a 2hp motor, 6 1/2 hp combined, pulls less watts on the meter than my new 4hp single phase collector?

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I'll have to argue that. Sure. Pulling same amps, but less load on motor reduces electrical usage.Think of it this way Steve...you have two hot leads now instead of one...instead of the 18 amps our 1023s would draw if they could run on 110, we are now drawing 9 out of each lead. The total voltage is the same, just spread out over two leads (kinda like two plugs) and that's why the stall is less likely.

[mike lucas]

Guys, it is all about torque! And on 220 the same motor will run much more efficient. I have converted probably 100 motors over that were dual voltage. And I have yet to see one perform the same. Matter fact many of them seam like a different motor all together.

For those of you that have dual voltage motors and have never run one on 220v. You need to have it converted too 220. You will be amazed.

The torque on 220 is about twice that of 115. I was an electrician for several years on the side. And I know I have converted 100 motors for others.

Other then torque, I do not know if there are any benefits to running 220. I have heard some experts claim that it will cut your electric bill. But I do not understand how that would be, unless running more efficient would do it.

[John Weber]

I was referring to the cost to wire the feed circuit is cheaper for a 220v line then a larger 120v line. Not much for an average home owner with a hobby shop, but if you are building homes or commerical buildings the savings can add up.

John

[Chris Padilla]

Guys, it is all about torque! And on 220 the same motor will run much more efficient. I have converted probably 100 motors over that were dual voltage. And I have yet to see one perform the same. Matter fact many of them seam like a different motor all together.

For those of you that have dual voltage motors and have never run one on 220v. You need to have it converted too 220. You will be amazed.

The torque on 220 is about twice that of 115. I was an electrician for several years on the side. And I know I have converted 100 motors for others.

Other then torque, I do not know if there are any benefits to running 220. I have heard some experts claim that it will cut your electric bill. But I do not understand how that would be, unless running more efficient would do it.

Mike,

Power and Torque are (for this discussion) practically the same thing. Torque, for motors, is an angular measurement usually in foot-pounds or Newton-meters. Power is then foot-pounds/second or Newton-meter/s or J/s or W. So power is a force measured over time whereas torque is a force times distance. I do not see how you can simply say the torque is doubled when switching line voltages. Do you have more info on this...some web page or something?

[Chris Padilla]

Think of it this way Steve...you have two hot leads now instead of one...instead of the 18 amps our 1023s would draw if they could run on 110, we are now drawing 9 out of each lead. The total voltage is the same, just spread out over two leads (kinda like two plugs) and that's why the stall is less likely.

Correct, Kelly, but they are also 180 degrees out of phase with each other. If you were to run the white neutral into the 240 V circuit (just for fun) and you put an ammeter on it, it would read zero current flow.

Folks, think about how power companies send energy or power to our homes. How do they do it? They do it at VERY high voltages...like 500,000 V. Why? They run at very high voltages so that current can be minimized and wire sized can be minimized and money saved from running thinner lines over thicker lines. We all have step-down transformers to get the familiar 240/120V line voltage in our homes.

I think this anaology can be applied to our motors, too, as others have already basically done. You will run less current draw down your wires in a 240 V mode vs. 120 V mode for the same power draw. This means less stress on the wires feeding your load (motor) and could also mean running smaller wires to save money. I still don't think the motor itself cares one way or the other...still looking for that succinct explanation to Mr. Lucas' argument above.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

When a motor can run on 220 or 110 it has split windings. The windings are either connected in parallel for 120 volt operation, or in series for 240 volt operation. The individual windings never see more than 120 volts. Since the voltage across the windings does not change, the power output stays the same.

A motor running on 110 pulls double the amps of a motor on 220. Put that motor under load and the amperage draw will increase causing the wires heat. When the wires heat up, their resistance increases and the motor may not be able to pull enough amps to continue spinning. This should only be a problem if the circuits inside the wall are not sized for the tool you are using.

BTW, the math for computing wattage and torque doesn't support a 220 motor having double the torque of a 110 motor.

[Donnie Raines]

I dont know....

My 16 inch Bandsaw would stall almost everytime when wired 110(when resawing). Wired it to 220 and never had a problem again...... :confused:

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I can't see how the torque is changed when the wiring is changed to 220. I read somewhere that someone thought start up torque was increased, but no one has ever proved it with an article. According to those who are in the know there's no power increase, just a different way of wiring to reduce the amp draw and prevent stalling.

[Chris Padilla]

Here is what I came up with and let me use an example. Keep in mind I don't know dilly about motors but here goes:

Let's assume a ~2 hp max output motor. That is about a 1.5 kW motor converting over to the metric system.

Wire it for 120 Vac. At max current draw, you are looking at 12.5 A.
Wire it for 240 Vac. At max current draw, you are looking at 6.25 A.

Either way you look at it, the motor will provide ~2 hp or 1.5 kW of power for you. Let ignore power factor and efficiency just for the moment along with winding loss, etc.

Clearly, less current flow will mean less heating up of the motor. For the sake of argument, let's say that twice the current flow means twice the heat or temperature rise. (I could be WAY off with that assumption but suffice it to say that doubling the current in a wire will make the wire hotter)

Motors can be made with thermal shutdown switches so it is safe to assume, from this example, that a 120 Vac-wired motor running at full load will get hotter than a 240 Vac-wired motor running at the same full load. Keep in mind they are still both delivering the same power.

I'm theorizing that as the 120 Vac-wired motor gets hotter, either its efficiency comes down and/or some thermal protection begins to kick-in. This will happen sooner on the 120 Vac-wired motor than on the 240 Vac-wired motor even though they are both, just before shut-down/weakening (lower effiiciency due to heat), delivering the same power.

I further say that it is quite possible to do this when we are cutting/milling our favorite woods and we are taxing the motor quite a bit to keep the blade moving and cutting.

How's that? :D

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Sounds right to me Chris!

[Ian MacDonald]

Hi Guys,

Maybe this can add a little to the conversation.

If I recall correctly from my college days...

During motor startup the instantaneous current draw is much higher than the full load current draw. In fact it can be many times the full load current. It's this instantaneous current draw that causes the large voltage drop during startup. (For you EE types, consider what happens went you energize an inductor/coil.)

This effect manifests itself as a slower acceleration to full motor speed. On a 220V wired motor, the voltage drop during startup will be half that of the 110V motor and as a result will reach full running speed more quickly. I believe this effect also comes into play when a motor is heavily loaded; the 220V motor will recover more quickly after the load is reduced than the 110V motor.

Cheers,

-- Ian

[mike lucas]

Mike,

Power and Torque are (for this discussion) practically the same thing. Torque, for motors, is an angular measurement usually in foot-pounds or Newton-meters. Power is then foot-pounds/second or Newton-meter/s or J/s or W. So power is a force measured over time whereas torque is a force times distance. I do not see how you can simply say the torque is doubled when switching line voltages. Do you have more info on this...some web page or something? Lets say you are correct for a moment here, If torque is indeed what you stated, Then what do we do with all of the Torque wrenches? (Toss them in the trash?) If torque is a force times distance, and a torque wrench can apply 1000 ft lb without moving, then your theroy is no good. Sorry! But I have to completely disagree with you. Toqrue is an applied force, and has nothing to do with distance, or rpm.
And yes the 220v does indeed have twice the force as 110, so it is safe too say that it would have twice the torque. You can double the torque without effecting the horsepower. And the other way around is not possible.

Chris, I am not trying to be a di(k with you, some times I have a hard time explaining things, and the internet makes it even worse.

Think of it this way;
Torque gets things moving, and horsepower keeps it moving. You can have torque without hosepower, but you can not have horsepower without torque.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Mike, your assertation is not supported by fact. Look in any physics text book and you'll find that torque is defined as a twisting motion (as in rotation) and measured as force times distance.

I don't understand your comment about throwing away the torque wrench. A torque wrench simply indicates how much force (torque) you've applied at the end of the wrench at a given instant in time.

Power is measured as force times distance moved over a period of time. Motors with different hp ratings can move the same mass, it just takes the smaller hp motor longer to move the mass.

Check out any book on motors, there is no evidence to support your claim of a motor operating on 240 volts having double the HP as the same motor operating on 120 volts. You can say it does, but that doesn't make it so. You simply can't provide any evidence to backup your claim.

power = voltage times amps

240 volts X 10 amps = 2400 watts
120 volts X 20 amps = 2400 watts

The power is the same for both motors

You also need to watch your language on this forum.

[John Shuk]

I asked my uncle today about the whole thing and he was designed elcectric motors for Reliant Electric for 40 years. His answer was mostly information that I could not repeat if I tried but the final conclusion as to why a stall at 110 and not 220 was that the voltage drop when you load the motor on 110 is much more drastic than at 220. So you are operating at a voltage which can't run the motor with the voltage drop whereas with 220 you are still in the operating range. I wish he could explain it because I can't do justice but his credentials are impeccable.

[Ken Garlock]

Since the 120V motor will pull approximately twice the current of a 240V motor, it will have more voltage drop along the supply line.

Example:
120V motor pulling 12 Amp. across a supply circuit with 1 ohm resistance will experience a 12V drop (E=IR; 12=12*1). usng the same wiring, a 240V motor pull only 6 amp. and thus have a 6V drop (6=6*1).
What does this mean for work performed by the motor? Power consumed equal voltage time current. P=IE. If we assume the internal resistance of the motor does not change, it becomes clear that the motor will also draw less current due to the increased voltage drop in supply wiring. For the sake of discussion, using the logic above, let us say the actual voltage drop was 12 volts or 10% of the supply voltage. We can then say that the current consumed is also 10% less. Thus, it follows that the power consumed by the motor is reduced by P = (E-10%E)*(I-10%I). We can do some arithmetic using I=E/R , we can restate the power consumed as P=(.9E*.9E)/R. We can discard the resistance of the motor R since it is constant, and the reduced amount of work the motor can do is P= (.81E*E) where E is the original supply voltage.
Looking at the 240V case, we would experience a 6V drop, and the power produced by the motor is P= (240-6)*(240-6)/R, or by dividing 240-6 by 240 to obtain a percentage drop, P=(.975E*.975E). That can reduced to P=(.95E*E).Here again, we can ignore the resistance since we are holding it constant.

Viola(a large violin), we can see that a higher operating current causes a higher voltage drop in the line and hence reduces the amount of output power produced by the motor. What can we due to minimize the power drop? Use wirng that is at least the recommended size or larger, and keep the runs as short as possible between the equipment and the distribution panel.

Conclusion: in this example, the `120V motor power is reduced by 19% when running on a supply line of one ohm resistance. But the 240V motor power is reduced by a mear 5%, ceteris parabus. When is this a concern? Probably only when the motor is running near its rated output and drawing a high current.

I hope this makes sense, and yes, John, I agree with your uncle.

[Steve Clardy]

Since the 120V motor will pull approximately twice the current of a 240V motor, it will have more voltage drop along the supply line.

Example:
120V motor pulling 12 Amp. across a supply circuit with 1 ohm resistance will experience a 12V drop (E=IR; 12=12*1). usng the same wiring, a 240V motor pull only 6 amp. and thus have a 6V drop (6=6*1).
What does this mean for work performed by the motor? Power consumed equal voltage time current. P=IE. If we assume the internal resistance of the motor does not change, it becomes clear that the motor will also draw less current due to the increased voltage drop in supply wiring. For the sake of discussion, using the logic above, let us say the actual voltage drop was 12 volts or 10% of the supply voltage. We can then say that the current consumed is also 10% less. Thus, it follows that the power consumed by the motor is reduced by P = (E-10%E)*(I-10%I). We can do some arithmetic using I=E/R , we can restate the power consumed as P=(.9E*.9E)/R. We can discard the resistance of the motor R since it is constant, and the reduced amount of work the motor can do is P= (.81E*E) where E is the original supply voltage.
Looking at the 240V case, we would experience a 6V drop, and the power produced by the motor is P= (240-6)*(240-6)/R, or by dividing 240-6 by 240 to obtain a percentage drop, P=(.975E*.975E). That can reduced to P=(.95E*E).Here again, we can ignore the resistance since we are holding it constant.

Viola(a large violin), we can see that a higher operating current causes a higher voltage drop in the line and hence reduces the amount of output power produced by the motor. What can we due to minimize the power drop? Use wirng that is at least the recommended size or larger, and keep the runs as short as possible between the equipment and the distribution panel.

Conclusion: in this example, the `120V motor power is reduced by 19% when running on a supply line of one ohm resistance. But the 240V motor power is reduced by a mear 5%, ceteris parabus. When is this a concern? Probably only when the motor is running near its rated output and drawing a high current.

I hope this makes sense, and yes, John, I agree with your uncle.
Not being a math guy here, tell us your thoughts whether 110 vs 220 really increases power, either mathmectically, or your own thoughts Ken.
Curious minds want to know. :confused:
Steve:)

[John Shuk]

Ken,
That is just how Uncle Jack put it. Thanks for putting words to what I can't cannot.
John

[Ken Garlock]

Not being a math guy here, tell us your thoughts whether 110 vs 220 really increases power, either mathmectically, or your own thoughts Ken.
Curious minds want to know. :confused:
Steve:)

Hi Steve. From my post above, 120V the example experienced a 19% drop in power due to the 1 ohm line resistance. The 240V case experienced a 5% drop. Keep in mind that you can't make more than you started with, all you can do is the reduce the losses. (you can't win, ;you can't break even, you can't quit the game ;) ) Hence, the 240V configuration would be less likely to stall out because of the least amount of loss. Keep in mind that this is based upon line losses leading up to the motor. If you had silver wires of a very short distance between the distribution panel and the motor, the losses would be negligible and both the 120V and the 240V configurations would perform the same.
If you are seeing a big difference in performance under heavy load between the 120V and 240V configurations, you probably should check the wiring to see if you have the proper gauge installed.

[Keith Christopher]

Chris,


Sorry I missed your question to me. I agree with the logic overly discussed here. But I will stand by my statement, I performed the same cut on a diff section of the ashand it ripped it easier and I changed nothing except the 220v.

no new blade no splitter. It just seemed to run better. Maybe like washing your car seems to make it run better who knows, but the saw seems to run much more efficent and powerful.

[Rob Bailey]

I am a part time EE between 8 and 5; it supports my weekend woodworking habit.

The biggest thing you guys are missing is that while ohms law (V=IR) holds true, R is not a constant.

Electrical motors operate on the premise that a changing current in a conductor induces a magnetic field around the conductor. The converse is also true; a changing magnetic field around a conductor induces a current. The magnetic effect generated is called an Electro Motive Force or EMF. You'll just have to take for granted that this is true because I'm not going through all the calculus required to prove it :eek:

There are several types of motors out there and I am no motor expert but think about this... When a motor is setting at rest, the coil is exactly that, a large coil of wire. If you put an ohm meter across the coil you will se almost no resistance. This is why when you first throw the power switch, you see a huge current draw as the motor starts. V=IR or 110 or 220 = Huge Current x very small resistance.

Next, the motor comes up to speed and the current stabilizes. The current stabilizes because there is a back EMF that builds up in the motor. The changing (AC) current is generating a magnetic field and changes in the magnetic field are generating currents.

Enough about the physics, Lets look at it this way.

Lets a motor can be wired 110 or 220. It draws 12 amps at 110 and 6 amps at 220.

120 Volts = 12 amps * 10 ohms
220 volts = 6 amps * 20 ohms

You guys will probably agree that a motor draws more amps when it is loaded; as the load is increased eventually it stalls. If you look at the above equations you will notice that as the amps increase, the resistance of the motor decreases. After all, the voltage stays constant right? As the resistance approaches zero the current goes through the roof and disaster looms. But you should also notice that the 220V motor has farther to go before disaster strikes.

It is very hard to take electrical power numbers and convert them into meaningful mechanical horsepower numbers. None of the math that calculates torque or power takes into account what is actually happening at the motor shaft. I'll agree that ultimately P=IV. However, how much of that power is being dissipated as heat and how much is turning the shaft?

P=IV can also be written as P = I * I * R. As I increases and R approaches zero, you are in fact generating more power. But this doesn't tell you whether you are putting more power to the shaft or burning up the motor.

The short answer really is that 220V is more effecient.

I hope this helps

--Rob

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks Rob. It helps me. :)

[John Shuk]

I guess the answer is that 220 is a better choice not because of the motor but because of the delivery to the motor.