Possible to go 100% neander?

[Dustin Irby]

I'm a fairly novice woodworker at this point and don't have a lot of investment in hand or power tools for that matter. So, I am at a point where I can make a decision to begin acquiring hand tools or go for the big table saw, router table, etc. Since I'm posting here, I am obviously leaning toward hand tools if possible, but I need some help from folks who do this to understand what I can accomplish and what tools I might need to accomplish creating furniture I would be proud of and that my family will cherish down the road. I know there will be a steep learning curve, not only in what tools I need but in how to sharpen and maintain them, but there's just something I really like about the idea of REALLY making something by hand. I think I understand from a plane perspective a good start would be a smoother, jack and jointer plane. What about sawing? It would seem I may need 3 or more different saws (ripping, crosscut, backsaw/dovetail saw). Are there folks out there that feel they can use hand saws and forego the tablesaw? Thanks for your time in reading this lengthy post!

[David Gendron]

First, Welcome to the Creek Dustin! As for 100% neanderthal, it is totaly possible, and that's what I do! When I started wood working seriously, about a year ago,I was dreaming of all the big power tools, and since I didn't have a shop big anought to put them, I decided to start with hand tools and in the future, get the shop and the tools that belong in it!! But after a year of doing every thing by hand, I became the big power tool and I'm happy that way! Tom Fidgen, run a professional shop in Toronto Canada and he does every thing by hand also and some amazing stuff! I will try to supply the link to is blog and web site!

As for the tools, you would need to start, a block plane(Low Angle Adjustable Mouth are a plus), a "jack" plane anything from a #5 to a #6 and a smoothing plane like a #4, 4 1/2.

For the saws, you need a rip DT saw, a XC carcass saw, a rip tenon saw( these 3 are all back saws).

Now for full size saws, it depend what are the wood you will work most often, if you work hard wood like maple, walnut, chery etc. you are looking for a rip saw that have about 7ppi(points per inch) configuration, for soft wood, like poplar, pine, spruce etc. you can go down to around 5ppi.

Now to the XC sawsyou are looking for some thing in the 8,9,10,11 ppi, the highest ppi should give you a cleaner cut so better for finishing work!

You would also need a set of beveled hedge chisels, two or three mortising chisels, a mallet, some kind of marking gauge and a marking knife. A good try square and of course the most important of all, a sturdy work bench with some holding device(vices).

Of cours you will end up needing a lot more as you progress thrue the projects but that would be a start!

If I can had some thing, would be to go the good quality tools route either new or used!
Good luck!

[Pedro Reyes]

Dustin,

I am by no means an expert, but let me share my experience and views.

Few key points

I don't do this for a living.
I don't use any plywood or MDF (not with my handtools)


If you want to make a few heirlooms for you and your family I think you can certainly go full neander, I've made a handfull of pieces and a few boxes, the only power tool was my car to get the wood home.

I did buy a lathe (only power tool as of today) to turn small things and handles, I didn't see myslef building a treadle lathe just yet. I also plan to buy a bandsaw at some point because my resawing is not something I would brag about.

I have dimensioned wood by hand and it is an experience to say the least, work, lots of it sometimes, maybe I'm inexperienced, but dimensioning some hard maple for a bookcase once was a chore. I don't regret it one bit.

I think you can go full neander, but if you want to use sheet goods, then I guess a table saw is a must.

/p

[David Gendron]

http://www.tomfidgen.blogspot.com/
This is the link to Tom Fidgen blog.www.theunpluggedwoodshop.com (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/www.theunpluggedwoodshop.com) and this is his wep page! Have a look it is worth it!

[John A. Callaway]

I just bought this fella's book a few days ago... Made By Hand. Great read so far. Some beautiful projects in there too...

[David Gendron]

Damed, I'm in the same country has Tom and get my copy after you guys:confused:

[Bob Smalser]

A real down side is that you pretty much write yourself off to all that rough-sawn, air-dried local stock which isn't only cheaper than storebought kilned, it is so much more authentic to what you are trying to. That's unless of course, you are willing to spend at amount of time necessary to reduce a pile of rough, 4/4 and 5/4" true to 3/4, 3/8 and 1/2" finished thicknesses a hundred bf at a time.

And when I say more authentic, I mean if you turn over and remove the drawers from pieces that predate machine tools, you'll find only the surfaces that absolutely needed to be planed were planed. There will be rough stock showing on table tops between aprons, the backs of aprons, drawer bottoms and much of the carcase work that didn't require truing for joinery. If you buy your stock already planed to all the finished dimensions you need, you'll lose all of that. Yet with just a small power jointer and benchtop thickness planer, leaving one, two or three sides rough while achieving the necessary thickness is easy and fast.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hi Dustin an welcome to the quiet side.

The question you have asked is more one of philosophical bent and of desire than of an actual "can it be done". There is no doubt that it can be done and building only with hand tools has a history going back thousands of years. The more important question is really "do you want to do it?" We have folks here who vary in their approach from hand tools only with no power assistance to those who do everything with power tools and never touch a hand tool. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that most of us here in the Neanderthal forum use a mixture of hand and power tools with an emphasis toward doing our joinery and finished surfaces with hand tools. Choices are made based on our available time, the amount of effort we are willing to expend, and most importantly what tools and skill sets we have available.

Personally, I have made a couple of pieces over the years completely by hand with no power assistance. This was done for fun and personal satisfaction and also as a test to see if I could pull it off. My results were just fine. Most of the time however I leave the grunt work of rough stock preparation to the power planer and jointer to save time and effort. Additionally, most of my long rip cuts are done on the bandsaw. Joinery and surface finishes I prefer to do with hand tools as I like the look and results better and they look more period authentic since I build primarily 18th century furniture. Another place where I will use power is in the production of multiples. If I have to make 30 stopped dadoes or 100 mortises, the time involved and the need for efficiency leads me toward the stacked dado set or the hollow chisel mortiser. While as a hobbiest I don't have the time constraints of the professional furniture maker, I do want to finish the project in a reasonable length of time.

Summary: It's all a matter of chocie and desire.

[Larry Marshall]

I'm a fairly novice woodworker at this point and don't have a lot of investment in hand or power tools for that matter. So, I am at a point where I can make a decision to begin acquiring hand tools or go for the big table saw, router table, etc. Since I'm posting here, I am obviously leaning toward hand tools if possible, but I need some help from folks who do this to understand what I can accomplish and what tools

Clearly the best advice is to listen to some experts who do work with hand tools. Head to Logan Cabinet Shoppe (http://logancabinetshoppe.weebly.com/). Watch the 11 podcasts that Bob has available on the use of hand tools. He'll show you the sorts of tools you need and how to use them.

Reading Tom Fidgen's site (http://www.theunpluggedwoodshop.com/) and Stephen Shephard's Full Chisel site (http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/) will walk you through several projects that they've undertaken using only hand tools. Buying a copy of Tom's new book, Made by Hand would also be money well-spent.

Then, accumulate your tools according to what project you want to do. Add tools as you find need. Do it slowly and only when you have the knowledge to assess tool quality and when you actually have a need for the tool.

Cheers --- Larry

[Robert Rozaieski]

Dustin,

As Dave has said, it is a matter of personal choice. Can it be done? Sure. Look at any piece of American furniture from the 1700s to early 1800s in a museum. They were all made using only hand tools, right from the tree. There are a handful of us on the board here who do it all by hand, but it is a personal choice. It can be more work, but you have to work differently to be efficient than you would working with machines.

An example is the one Bob pointed out above about planing 5/4 or 4/4 rough sawn stock down to 3/8" thick. While it can be done, most of us who use hand tools only would never plane a piece of 5/4 down to 3/8" thick. It's too much work and too wasteful of the wood. If I had a 5/4" board and needed a 3/8" board, I'd resaw it. Most likely, a board this thick would be needed for something like drawer sides, which are relatively small boards. I also use secondary wood for these parts, not really hard woods. Resawing something like pine or poplar is easy with the right saw in drawer sized stock. Plus, when you resaw, you get two pieces instead of one piece and a lot of shavings.

I buy all my stock from the yard rough sawn and hand plane all of it. I'm not going to try to tell you it's not a lot of work; it is. But with the right setup of bench planes, you can still do it effeciently. I plane a 12" wide by 36" long board face from rough sawn to finish ready in about 8-10 minutes. So it's really not that slow, but I'm not using planes set up to take 0.0001" thick shavings either. When working only by hand, shavings that thin are useless time wasters until you get to final smoothing of boards with difficult grain.

If you are really insterested in doing things 100% by hand, continue to post here for great advise from lots of knowledgable folks. Also, feel free to check out my web site blog and podcast. I'm not a professional by any means, but I've been working only by hand for awhile and have learned a lot of things by trial and error. While the way I do things isn't necessarily the best way, or even the "right" way, my methods have allowed me to learn to work fairly quickly even without using any power. I try to share what I've learned through my experimenting and encourage folks to experiment on their own as well.

In the end, you can learn just so much from reading and watching videos. At some point, you just have to get some wood, pick a project and try for yourself. The best way to learn is by doing. Making mistakes is ok. Just jump in with whatever tools you have and try it out. As you work, you'll make mistakes but you'll learn as much what not to do as what works for you. The worst that happens is you make some firewood, learn some valuable lessons, figure out what tools YOU NEED, and have some fun doing it. Doesn't sound so bad too me :D. Don't let what you perceive as a lack of tools stop you from trying. As you work, you'll figure out what tool you need next when you get to a point that you can't continue any further without a different tool.

Good luck!

[Dustin Irby]

Wow guys. Thanks so much for all the advice. I actually thought I might get blown off since I was asking such an open-ended question and it's obvious I don't have a lot of knowledge to offer in return. I hope to change the knowledge part, at least. I really appreciate everyone taking time to offer their advice. Time to research planes, saws and chisels. A workbench project may be in the works soon!

[Bob Smalser]

An example is the one Bob pointed out above about planing 5/4 or 4/4 rough sawn stock down to 3/8" thick. While it can be done, most of us who use hand tools only would never plane a piece of 5/4 down to 3/8" thick. It's too much work and too wasteful of the wood. If I had a 5/4" board and needed a 3/8" board, I'd resaw it.



Except I didn't say plane it. I said reduce in thickness. I resaw as a matter of routine.....only using a band saw, which in my mind is a later investment for a newcomer after a 6" jointer and 12" planer.

But your comment adds to what's involved for a lone craftsman to limit himself to only hand tools. Resawing by hand to a satisfactory standard is much more difficult than hand planing, plus you have to make the saw and learn to sharpen it. As proficiency gained in furnituremaking is much more a rear-weighted than a front-weighted curve, all this up-front grunt work only delays gaining skills at the fit-and-finish end where the prizes reside. That's if you don't give up before you ever get there.

Remember all your good examples were proficient cabinetmakers before they switched to all or mostly hand tools.

[David Keller NC]

Wow guys. Thanks so much for all the advice. I actually thought I might get blown off since I was asking such an open-ended question and it's obvious I don't have a lot of knowledge to offer in return. I hope to change the knowledge part, at least. I really appreciate everyone taking time to offer their advice. Time to research planes, saws and chisels. A workbench project may be in the works soon!

Dustin - I make most projects entirely by hand (with the exception that I buy rough-sawn wood that was likely milled using a big, electron-powered bandsaw). Yes, it is entirely possible to make something only with meat-powered tools. Whether you choose to light your shop with tallow candles or not is up to you (I don't go this far - I like fluorescent lights).

My above comment wasn't meant as sarcastic - there's a definite gray area when it comes to authentically producing furniture of a different age using the tools and shops of that era. Most of us draw the line on reproducing the finished surfaces of the historic piece, whether that's rough-planing draw bottoms with a fore plane, or finish-scraping the top of a tea table.

To that end - you will need a slightly different group of planes to prepare rough wood. Specifically, you will want a foreplane. This is a functional description, not an object label. In that sense, a foreplane can be a wooden-bodied plane about 20" long, a Stanley #6, a "transitional" Stanley model that's about 18" long, or a "jack" plane (either wooden-bodied and about 14" long, or a Stanley #5, #5-1/2, or a #5-1/4).

The distinction is that a fore-plane will always have a highly curved cutting edge and a very open mouth, and will be used to cut off very thick, very curled shavings, usually across the grain of the board. Typically, the curve on the front of the iron will be in the 8"-10" radius range. Chris Schwarz wrote an excellent blog entry on the Woodworking Magazine site about how to go about this.

Regarding tools, you will need three planes (a jointer, a fore-plane, and a smoother), 2 saws - a rip-filed "panel saw", and a rip-filed backsaw, a set of chisels, a means of sharpening the tools, some layout tools (a marking knife, a couple of squares, a straightedge and a means of measuring the length of something) and a workbench. The workbench is extremely important as a basic tool for handwork. Your first purchase should be Christopher Schwarz' book "Workbenches, From Theory and Design to Construction and Use". This is the single most important book published inthe last 10 years for an aspiring hand-tool only woodworker.

[James Scheffler]

I'm a fairly novice woodworker at this point and don't have a lot of investment in hand or power tools for that matter. So, I am at a point where I can make a decision to begin acquiring hand tools or go for the big table saw, router table, etc. Since I'm posting here, I am obviously leaning toward hand tools if possible, but I need some help from folks who do this to understand what I can accomplish and what tools I might need to accomplish creating furniture I would be proud of and that my family will cherish down the road. I know there will be a steep learning curve, not only in what tools I need but in how to sharpen and maintain them, but there's just something I really like about the idea of REALLY making something by hand. I think I understand from a plane perspective a good start would be a smoother, jack and jointer plane. What about sawing? It would seem I may need 3 or more different saws (ripping, crosscut, backsaw/dovetail saw). Are there folks out there that feel they can use hand saws and forego the tablesaw? Thanks for your time in reading this lengthy post!

I started out woodworking with a power jointer, radial arm saw (1950s tools which came from my grandfather), and router/router table. As a result, jointing, cross cutting, ripping, and basic routing were pretty simple and precise enough. (Although tuning up and using old power tools have their own learning curves and frustrations).

When I got into using handplanes, and now a little into handsaws, I found that having the power tools sometimes let me just get the job done so I could move on. For example, if the jointed edge wasn't coming out straight and square, a quick pass over the jointer fixed things and I could move on. When it came time to smoothing the surface, I was on safer ground with a smooth plane.

So my point is, it may be good to go with power tools for some operations just so you're not on so many steep learning curves at once. I'm not so good at hand saws yet, so the radial arm saw still gets a lot of use. Buying a table saw might be a good compromise, because it's good for the cutting operations and also can joint (though maybe not with great accuracy) if you use jointer clamps.

As for handsaws, you might want to look at Japanese-style ryobas. You get both crosscutting and ripping functions in an affordable saw, which will be razor sharp and ready to use right off the shelf.

Jim

[David Gendron]

Mr Smalser, I never made one saw and I do a lot of resawing and all of it is done with hand saw... and when you use sharp tool that track, it is not that hard!!

[John Coloccia]

There's no better time to use hand tools than now. I believe we currently have the absolute best selection of hand tools we've ever had, easy availability and a virtual library of information and videos. It's certainly easier now than it was 100 years ago. Also please remember that nothing you do with hand tools really requires any special talent or God given spark. We're talking about really basic skills that will be refined over the years and combined into ever more complex tasks.

Most of us end up using a combination of hand and power tools. Whatever is most appropriate, fastest or will give the best results depending on what we're trying to achieve.

[Bob Smalser]

Mr Smalser, I never made one saw and I do a lot of resawing and all of it is done with hand saw... and when you use sharp tool that track, it is not that hard!!

This saw?

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=108773

[Harry Goodwin]

I started off in a pattern shop but shorty moved to the hobby. I would hate at 74 (age) to reduce my stock by hand. You can ,as I have done for years, use only a table saw and use it to reduce stock to thickness spliting thicker stock and regluing alternating grain with dowels. It also opens a bag full of easy joints. A hand plane still is in the running against the jointer. A small band saw is great for curved stuff . A small lathe and everything else was by hand for many years and lots of hand tools. Hand tool knowledge will never be lost once mastered. All my powered tools of late (comparitively) could easily be replaced by hand work. Harry

[Randy Reitz]

Wow. Lots of great advice and discussion here so far so I hesitate to add my two cents.

Dustin, the best way to find out what you need to make things from wood is to make things from wood. Don't worry about the "steep learning curve" and all the sharpening Zen voodoo that we spend so much time arguing about. Get some wood and some plans and build something. Start with something simple. If you need to add a tool to complete a project get the best you can. You will learn to appreciate the difference a well made tool makes and when you feel the sharpening sweet spot the first time your woodworking will never be the same.

In my wasted youth :( I was all about precision jigs and routers and wood as an engineering problem. But I never actually built much because I didn't yet have the perfect set-up. My wife used to point out that I had more tools than a whole woodworking village in Thailand we used to visit.

These days I am more interested in avoiding the noise and the dust in the air and using the wood as wood. It's also about the enjoyment. If I can easily and accurately do a joint by hand I do it. And there are more operations that I have the tools, temperament, and experience to do by hand now than even two years ago. But there are still times when it's easier to rip a board on the tablesaw so I can finish a project in the time I have available on a weekend.

Like I said, start where you are. If you learn to joint a glue edge with your $ 20 flea market plane that you fettled yourself, you will understand grain directions better when you score the 8" jointer. Or better appreciate the first time you try a LN plane. With some experience you will be able to decide whether you prefer the physical challenge of hand surfacing all your wood (possibly as a way of dealing with work and life's frustrations) or if you prefer to use machines to do the rough milling so you can concentrate on the hand details that give your work a personal touch.

Don't expect your first projects to be family heirloom quality, although be prepared for some surprises in people's reactions. Try a wide range of projects to see which type appeals to you. Some people find a lifetime of enjoyment trying to master a lathe or scrollsaw.

OK I got carried away. I'm goin' a hafta charge three cents. Two was just an estimate. :D Enjoy and welcome to the slippery slope.

[Michael Schwartz]

You can do quite a bit with very little space if you have a nice bandsaw, and portable thickness planer. Add to that a a compound miter saw, a portable circular saw and shop/commercially made guide for cutting plywood, cordless drill, drill press, plunge router, and random orbit sander you can do quite a bit of stuff. with a bit of patience.

However a bandsaw works very very well in combination with hand tools and would let you speed up ripping, cutting curves, resawing, cutting tenons, etc...

If you go the 100% hand tool rout that is fine and if thats what you enjoy your doing the right thing by perusing it, but if you can and want to its nice to have some power tools. A table saw is not necessary and you can work around it, if you choose to do so, but having some power tools will speed up the learning curve and let you make some stuff much faster.

[Michael Schwartz]

W

In my wasted youth :( I was all about precision jigs and routers and wood as an engineering problem. But I never actually built much because I didn't yet have the perfect set-up. My wife used to point out that I had more tools than a whole woodworking village in Thailand we used to visit.



Very good moral pointed out above

Setting up a shop can become an endless spiral if you let it and it is very had to balance it out and just stop messing with layout and machinery setup, building jigs, buying and setting up more equipment and changing your layout as a result again, improving dust collection, hence repeating its self again and again, as it has for a year for me.

At some point the best thing you can do is just stop what your doing and make a piece of furniture with what you have at hand.

[Jim Koepke]

There really is not much to add. Most of my tools are human powered, but the bandsaw and lathe do come in handy at times.

If someone wants to use power tools, I am not going to say anything against it. They are likely to do just as good as someone doing all handtool work.

It is funny though that one guy I used to work with was always riding me for my hand planes not being able to take of a 16th inch of wood in a single pass. For the longest time, he wasn't making anything when asked about "the weekend." Turns out he had some nicks in his planer blades and didn't know how to sharpen them. He didn't have any hand tools.

So, I guess the real point is not only know how to work with the tools you have, but how to maintain them when they do not work as good as they should.

jim

[Kevin Stricker]

I can add very little to what has been said before. I am a carpenter by trade and have many power tools to get jobs done quickly. I recently built my first mostly hand tooled project and was enthralled by the connection I felt with the piece. While I could have done the project in a day with screws and glue I choose to handcut 20 dovetails instead....wow what a chore that was. The end result though while far from perfect was so much more satisfying than the alternative.

I am taking a fine woodworking course at a local college ( hence the project) and have learned that the most important hand tool is a good workbench. I think it would be a very big challenge for a novice woodworker to make a bench without power tools, at least one that was useful( i.e. flat and rigid). If you are serious about your quest to pursue a hand tool only course you may want to see if there are any woodworking programs in your area that have the tools necessary to build a good bench.

Good luck in your journey.

[Mike Henderson]

Working with hand tools is great, but stock preparation by hand is a lot of work (when starting with rough lumber). I mostly prepare my stock by machine and do my joinery by hand.

The one exception is to flatten a board. I don't have a powered jointer - no room - so I'll flatten one side of a warped board by hand, but I'll take it down to final thickness in a powered planer. I'll also joint one edge by hand so that I can rip it on my table saw.

It's rewarding to do a project completely by hand, but it takes a lot of time and the knowledge of how to do it all. That's asking a lot of someone just starting out.

Personally, I'd recommend learning how to do joinery by hand first, then you can move to stock preparation if you want to go fully neander.

Mike

[David Gendron]

Sorry Not that one!!

[Don C Peterson]

My approach sounds nearly identical to Mike's. I have a table saw, band saw, and a planer which I use for stock prep and dimensioning, all my joinery and initial stock flattening is done by hand. It works for me and I still consider myself a neander...

I agree with Bob (assuming I take his comments correctly) that while it's possible to do it all by hand, the learning curve is pretty steep and the rewards are too remote for most of us to tackle the entire process, especially stock prep, by hand tools.

[Kevin Lucas]

Here is a blog on a all hand tool woodworker. Articles and a few videos...

http://logancabinetshoppe.weebly.com/blog.html

[Mark Roderick]

One, it depends on what you're looking for.

If you're looking mainly to the process, the smell of the wood chips and getting away from the electric world out there and all its noise and frustration, knowing you're working with wood the old-fashioned way, then going full-Neander makes sense.

If you're looking mainly for quick output, churning out pieces of furniture for your wife, then machines make sense.

It also depends on what kind of tools you like (I think all woodworkers like tools). Some people love fiddling around with old planes, others like the mass and complexity of big machines.

For most of us, we fall somewhere in between on each of these spectra. That's why most of us end up with some hand tools and some power tools.

Unless you're absolutely sure you want to stay with hand tools alone, I wold recommend buying a table saw and a planer. It's great to be able to cut straight lines when you're starting out with the table saw, and although it is possible to flatten boards without a planer, man, it is really hard work. If you buy them used, or even if you buy them new, you'll be able to get most of your money back should you ever decide to go fully Neander, which you probably won't.

This is not an ideological decision, or one that is set in stone. Build a small project with hand tools only, if you want to. If you love it, keep going. And your likes and dislikes could well change over the years. The idea of a hobby is to enjoy yourself, and there are plenty of ways to enjoy woodworking. Don't impose on your woodworking the discipline and rules you're trying to get away from.

[Larry Marshall]

A real down side is that you pretty much write yourself off to all that rough-sawn, air-dried local stock which isn't only cheaper than storebought kilned, it is so much more authentic to what you are trying to. That's unless of course, you are willing to spend at amount of time necessary to reduce a pile of rough, 4/4 and 5/4" true to 3/4, 3/8 and 1/2" finished thicknesses a hundred bf at a time.

Sorry Bob but there are simply too many of use doing exactly that for your comment to be valid. I haven't purchased pre-finished lumber in a very long time and yet I've never seen any reason to buy a jointer. I do have a thickness planer, however. You are simply overstating the time required to face and edge boards using handplanes.

Cheers --- Larry

[Joe Cunningham]

I started off with some BORG lumber, a single chisel, a Dozuki, combo-square and a work mate. Made a chisel box as my first project and still use it.

As I've progressed I have acquired hand tools and power tools for different, larger projects. I still don't use a table saw (a jig and a quality circular saw seem to work pretty well), still hand joint all my rough lumber, but do reach for a router for making mortises, dadoes, or setup on a router table for making stopped grooves. Most rabbets I do by hand, and other than the routed mortises/dadoes, all the joinery is done by hand.

Start small, make sure you enjoy yourself, and learn learn learn. I will eventually get some big power tools when I have the space and budget, but for now I enjoy my hybrid approach. Maybe you will enjoy 100% Neander or even 80%, or find you don't like it at all.

Jumping in with the "What can kind of shop can I get for $3K/5K/10K" kind of article/forum question seems like folly to me. I think my initial outlay was $100, material included (already had the work mate). I did a few projects with just additional material costs. Were they fancy? No. Would they win an award? No, but I learned something new with each project and built on each one.

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

It is very possible to go total neander. Sharpening is really really important. As to saws I have ... Probably too many. But I can easily do most everything I need to do—the exception is resawing which is just not much fun at all. I would encourage you to get a good crosscut handsaw and a good rip handsaw, and perhaps the Vertias backsaws and practice a lot.

[David Gendron]

Thank you Larry!

[Shawn Albe]

Dustin-
Unlike most of the responders who seem to know what they are doing, I'm in the same boat as you -- a newby without a big investment, trying to decide which way to go. I was originally drawn in by the machinery but quickly began to feel like I was a machine operator rather than a skilled craftsman. Right now, I have no machines nor any skills, so what does that make me (^: But I a definitely more energized by the 'tactile' aspects of working with hand tools: the quiet, solitude, 'hands on' aspects where you aren't too worried about cutting off fingers or getting clobbered by kickback. And then when you start reading about dust...who wants to spend $1000 on a cyclone and a similar amount on ducting??? And the noise? Yuck. Doesn't sound that relaxing to me.

That, coupled with a move necessitating selling my table saw, caused me to rethink it. And now I am hurtling down the hand tool slope with a few "asterisks".

Obviously given others' previous posts, it is possible to go full-on neander. But also, I don't think a) resawing, and b) doing all stock prep by hand would be very much fun. So I think I'm going to get a good bandsaw and benchtop planer and call it a day. At this point I am not thinking it is likely I'll accumulate a full enough collection of router planes to eliminate my (seldom used) router, and I'll keep my circular saw and home-made edge guide for working with sheet goods.

Someone alluded to this, but while I'm doing this as a hobby with no profit pressure or deadlines per se, there is still an element of needing to have some output fast enough that the wife is willing to put up with my time and money spent on tools, techniques, etc. If I end up taking too long, then before I know it my house if going to be full of Ikea flat-packed sawdust.

There are also a lot of folks online that are way into 'evangelizing' the selection and use of handtools, and most seem very happy to give of their personal time to film videos or answer emails. I would recommend trying to catch one of the Lie-Nielsen hand tool events if one comes anywhere near you. Great opportunity to try some tools and get a lot of pointers. If you don't emerge from the event pumped up for hand tool-oriented woodworking, then you should just hang it up.

So, OP, I'm curious, what are you thinking after seeing all of the posts?

Cheers,
Shawn

[James Owen]

Dustin,

My nickel's worth: yes, you can go 100% Neanderthal, if you want to. Some aspects of doing so are slower than doing the same operation with power tools, and others are as fast or even faster.

A relatively small tools set will get you going; then, you can add tools as your projects require it.

The following may be of some use to you. Along with tools, you should consider adding to your reference library; in fact, it is a very worthwhile thing (and a potential money and frustration saver) to do some reading before you spend money. Some reading suggestions are included below.

__________

Here's a basic set of woodworking hand tools that will allow you to make almost anything from wood:

EDGED TOOLS:

Hand Planes:

Block Planes: A low angle (12.5°) adjustable-mouth block plane (probably the single most useful and versatile plane of them all); an adjustable-mouth standard angle (20°) block plane is also very useful.

Bench Planes: A #4 or a #41/2 for a smoothing plane; a #5 for general purpose use or a #51/2 for general purpose use and/or a large and heavy smoother; and either a #7 or a #8 for jointing edges and flattening the faces of boards; a #6 may be more useful for flattening faces and jointing, if you mostly do smaller-scale work like jewelry boxes, etc.

Special Purpose Planes: A scrub plane, if you're going to do woodworking exclusively with hand tools, otherwise it's more or less optional -- get a "real" scrub plane: it works much better than a converted bench/smoothing plane. A (medium – 3/4”) shoulder plane also comes in very handy for many trimming and sizing tasks. A router plane works well for inlay work, as well as for trimming tenons, flattening the bottoms of dados, grooves, sliding dovetail housings, and similar work. Other special-purpose planes – such as combination planes, scraper planes, side rabbets, moulding planes, hollows & rounds, etc. -- can be added, as required.

General Comments on Hand Planes: My recommendation for hand planes are either vintage planes -- pre-WWII Stanleys, Sargents, Unions, or Millers Falls, etc. (be prepared to do some tuning with the older tools) -- or new Lie-Nielsens (ready to use out of the box), or a combination of both. Other high-quality planes available in the current market include the Canadian Lee Valley/Veritas planes and the English Clifton planes (generally in the same price range as the Lie-Nielsens, and of more or less equal quality). If you are extremely eager to significantly lighten your wallet, take a look at antique or modern infill planes -- they are normally (particularly the modern ones) of extremely high quality and have price tags that reflect that. And, if you prefer -- or want to try -- wooden planes, ECE, Steve Knight, and Clark & Williams -- to mention just a couple of the high-quality modern wooden plane makers -- make very nice ones, but they also are not inexpensive, and there is often a waiting list for their products, since many of them are made to custom specifications. Antique wooden planes and Japanese/Chinese-style wooden planes are also an option.

Chisels: A good set of bench chisels. A typical starter set would include 1/4”, 1/2”, 3/4”, and 1”; later expansion could include the following sizes, as required by your work: 1/8”, 5/16”, 3/8”, 5/8”, 7/8”, and 11/4”. The Japanese chisels sold by Woodcraft and the Pfeil “Swiss-Made” chisels are both good quality, as are the Ashley Iles, Barr, Robert Sorby, Lie-Nielsen, and Blue Spruce chisels. In addition to those brands, there are many, many other good chisels available, in all price ranges. A good mallet is highly useful; if you decide on Japanese chisels, also consider one of the Japanese chisel hammers. Vintage chisels are another option, although they will -- like vintage hand planes – usually require some tune-up work to bring them back to full capability. A couple of mortise chisels (1/4”, 5/16”, & 3/8” are the most commonly used sizes in furniture building) are also quite useful; if your budget allows, take a look at the superb Ray Iles English Oval Bolster Mortice Chisels (As a side note, Ray Iles is the son of Ashley Iles, of chisel and turning tool fame; Ashley Iles, himself, has since retired, and two of his other sons, Tony and Barry, are in charge of the Ashley Iles Ltd these days. Ray Iles runs his own separate company.). Specialized chisels -- such as skews, crank-necks, etc. -- can be added, as needed. A couple of bench gouges may also be very useful, depending on the type of work you do.

Spokeshaves: A flat and a round sole spoke shave. A concave and a convex spoke shave and/or chair devils (technically scrapers) are useful, if you’re making [Windsor] chairs. For new spokeshaves, Lie-Nielsen and Veritas make very high-quality tools, but they are set up more as finishing tools, particularly the Lie-Nielsens. For vintage tools, take a look at pre-WWII Stanley, Millers Falls, Edward Preston & Sons, etc.

Drawknives: An 8” – 10” heavy drawknife is useful for all sorts of shaving and shaping tasks. A smaller 4” to 6” lighter drawknife is useful for smaller-scale projects and more delicate cuts. Pexto, A. J. Wilkinson, Greenlee, and Ohio Tool are a few of the better-known vintage brands. Pfeil (Swiss Made), Robert Sorby, and Flexcut are a couple of quality modern drawknife makers. A scorp and/or an inshave is handy, if you do any type of hollowing, such as Windsor chair seats.

Hatchets, Axes, Froes, & Adzes: Hatchets and axes are quite handy for both coarse and fine trimming and cutting jobs. For example, no other hand tool will trim a board nearly to final width faster than a carpenter’s axe or a shingler’s hatchet; give the board a few passes with a plane or a spokeshave, and it’s trimmed to final width. A froe will split a log or thick board along grain lines very quickly and accurately; very useful for green woodworking and chairmaking, among other things. An adze will do an amazing variety of shaping and surfacing work on both small and large boards faster and more efficiently than nearly any other hand tool. For making wooden bowls and platters, no other hand tool is faster than a bowl adze for the initial shaping and removal of stock; a small carpenter’s adze will shape the seat of a Windsor chair in a very short time. A handful of companies – the Swedish forge Gränsfors Bruks and the Swiss chisel maker Pfeil, among others – are still making quality adzes, hatchets, froes, and woodworking axes; there are also a couple of antique tools dealers that have a (small) selection of these tools. If you are processing your own wood from the log, a maul (actually three of them) make splitting the log much easier.

Scrapers: A rectangular and a goose neck card scraper are a couple of the most under-rated tools in the shop. With a properly-turned burr, these will surface even gnarly-grained wood, knots, etc., that nothing else except sand paper will work on. A scraper holder will save some wear and tear on your hands and thumbs; Veritas makes a rather pricey but very nice one, or a shop-made holder will work equally well. A scraper plane is useful if you have large flat areas such as tabletops to scrape. A good burnisher (either purpose made burnisher or a smooth-shafted screwdriver) will turn a proper burr on your scrapers. Chair devils are be very useful if you make chairs that contain spindles.

SAWS:

Hand Saws: For Western-style saws, a 24” to 28” rip saw (41/2 to 6 TPI) and 24” to 28” cross-cut saw (6 to 10 TPI), a 12” or 14” tenon saw, and a 9” or 10” dovetail saw make a good starting set of saws (Lie-Nielsen makes really nice backsaws; there are also a number of boutique saw makers making very high quality full-sized saws.). A coping or fret saw and a bow saw can also be very handy, depending on the work you do. An Azibiki (Japanese mortise saw) and a Japanese pull-style flush cut saw are both incredibly useful saws for a just few dollars. Tuning up a vintage Disston, Atkins, or Spear & Jackson saw bought at a yard or estate sale for a couple of dollars is also a very worthwhile thing to learn to do. Japanese pull saws are also very popular and useful, and many woodworkers prefer them to Western-style saws. A Ryobi (double-edged saw – one edge is filed for rip cuts, the other edge is filed for cross-cuts), a Kataha (single-edged saw, filed either rip or cross-cut), and a Dozuki (backsaw, usually filed for cross cuts) are the saws most woodworkers find useful. As a general rule, on Japanese saws, the length of the saw influences the number of teeth per inch: the longer the saw, the fewer teeth per inch. Because of that, many woodworkers using Japanese saws will have more than one of each style.

BORING TOOLS:

Hand Drills: An "egg-beater" hand drill (pre-WWII Miller's Falls or Stanley, etc); and a standard set of brad-point bits will perform most small-hole drilling tasks. Both the small/medium and large sized drills are handy. If you frequently drill larger-sized holes (greater than 1/4”) with a hand drill, a breast drill makes that task considerably easier.

Bit Braces: A quality ratcheting bit brace (again, a pre-WWII Miller's Falls, North Brothers Yankee, or Stanley, etc.) and either a handful of the auger bit sizes that you need for your work or a 32-1/2 - quarters set of Russell Jennings pattern auger bits for the brace will take care of most of the rest of your drilling needs. An 8” or 10” swing brace works well for most drilling tasks, but a 12” or 14” swing brace is easier to use if you frequently drill 1” and larger holes. Depending on the work you do, you can get specialized bits -- such as spoon or nose bits, spoke pointers, hollow augers, an expandable bit, or tapered reamers -- if you have a need for them.

Misc Drilling Tools: A set of gimlets and a hand counter-sink are also useful. A set of drawbore pins are worth having, if you do much in the way of drawbored mortise and tenon joints.

MISC TOOLS:

Layout Tools: A quality, accurate 24” straight edge; an accurate 12” and 24” metal ruler (I like the center-finding ones); a quality marking gauge (my favorite is the TiteMark); a marking knife; a Brad or square awl; a bevel gauge (the Shinwa brand -- a copy of an old Stanley design -- works better than most of the other designs currently on the market); a pair of dovetail markers (1:6 for soft woods and 1:8 for hard woods); a pair of winding sticks (these will tell you if there is any twist in your boards, and can be bought or shop-made); an accurate try square, and a high-quality combination square (you could go with one or the other at the beginning -- the combination square is more versatile; spend the money to get a quality – i.e., Starrett -- combination square; the cheaper ones are not worth the money or frustration…).

Sharpening Tools, Clamps, Files, etc.: A sharpening system (oil, water, ceramic, or diamond stones; or a sandpaper method); a couple of rasps and files (rasps: Nicholson #49 or #50, for example; the Aurious are very nice, but big $$$ and difficult to find, now that they have gone out of business; files: a half-round, a round/rat tail, a 4-in hand, and a 6-to-10-inch-long flat smooth cut file should take care of most of your filing requirements; you can add specialised files, such as plane-maker’s floats, if the work you’re doing requires them); a file card, to clean shavings out of your rasps and files; a utility knife for general purpose trimming, cutting and marking; some hand screws and bar/pipe clamps big enough to fit your work (you'll never have enough clamps….); a dusting brush will save your fingers a few splinters; a nail set; and some hold fasts for your bench.

Benches and Bench Accessories: A properly-designed, solid work bench (buy or make yourself -- there are several virtues and disadvantages of either course of action); a bench hook, a shooting board, a mitre shooting board, a donkey ear shooting board, and a mitre jack (you'll have to make these yourself). A sawing bench and a bird’s mouth sawing board are also useful accessories. A shave horse or a shaving pony are handy if you do much shaping work with a draw knife or spokeshaves.

REFERENCE MATERIALS:

Books: A good reference library is indispensable; try these sites for woodworking books that you may find useful or interesting:

http://www.astragalpress.com
http://www.blackburnbooks.com
http://www.cambiumbooks.com
http://www.woodworkerslibrary.com
http://www.amazon.com

Here are some of my favorite woodworking books:

(Books preceded by * are the one I consider to be essentials for hand tool woodworkers.)

*Hand Tools: Their Ways and Workings (Aldren Watson)
Taunton’s Complete Illustrated Guide to Sharpening (Thomas Lie-Nielsen)
Choosing and Using Hand Tools (Andy Rae)
*Restoring, Tuning, and Using Classic Handtools (Mike Dunbar)
Sharpening With Waterstones (Ian Kirby)
Dictionary of Woodworking Tools (R. A. Salaman)
*Understanding Wood (R. Bruce Hoadley)
Furniture Making Techniques [Volumes 1, 2, & 3] (David Charlesworth)
*Making Woodworking Aids & Devices (Robert Wearing)
*Complete Guide to Sharpening (Leonard Lee)
*Entire Woodwright Series (Roy Underhill)
The Village Carpenter (Walter Rose)
The Nature and Art of Workmanship (David Pye)
Furniture By Design: Lessons in Craftmanship from a Master Woodworker (Graham Blackburn)
American Furniture of the 18th Century (Jeff Greene)
Making Classic Chairs: A Craftsman’s Chippendale Reference (Ron Clarkson)
*Traditional Woodworking Techniques (Graham Blackburn)
*Traditional Woodworking Handtools (Graham Blackburn)
The Complete Dovetail (Ian Kirby)
*Modern Practical Joinery (George Ellis)
Hand Tool Essentials (Editors of Popular Woodworking Magazine)
*Workbenches: from Design & Theory to Construction & Use (Chris Schwartz)
Complete Illustrated Guide to Period Furniture Details (Lonnie Bird)
*Planecraft: Hand Planing by Modern Methods (C. W. Hampton and A. E. Clifford)
*Keeping the Cutting Edge (Dynamite Payson)
The Handplane Book (Garrett Hack)
*Essential Wood Carving Techniques (Dick Onians)
Grinling Gibbons and the Art of Carving (David Esterly)
*Old Ways of Working Wood (Alex Bealer)
The Workbench Book (Scott Landis)
The Toolbox Book (Jim Tolpin)
Taunton's Best of/New Best of FWW & FWW On... _____ [your subject of interest -hand planes, hand tools, finishing, etc.]
The Woodworker's Guide to Hand Tools (Peter Korn)
Classic Hand Tools (Garrett Hack)
*Woodcarving: Tools, Materials, & Equipment [Vol 1 & 2] (Chris Pye)
The Art of Joinery (Joseph Moxon, with commentary by Chris Schwartz)
Period Furniture Projects (V. J. Taylor)
The Dunlap Cabinetmakers (Philip Zea and Donald Dunlap)
*Understanding Wood Finishing 2d Edition (Bob Flexner)


Internet:


Tools and Other Woodworking-Related Goods:


http://www.woodcraft.com

http://www.lie-nielsen.com

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com

http://www.leevalley.com

http://www.thebestthings.com

http://jonzimmersantiquetools.com

http://www.japanwoodworker.com


Woodworking Book Dealers:


http://www.astragalpress.com

http://www.blackburnbooks.com

http://www.cambiumbooks.com

http://www.foxchapelpublishing.com

http://www.woodworkerslibrary.com


Information:


http://www.woodcentral.com

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To.htm

http://www.toolemera.com

http://www.amgron.clara.net

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/en.html

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=4

http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/GeneralMenu

http://www.woodworking-magazine.com

http://www.traditionaltools.us

http://www.wkfinetools.com/index.asp

http://www.woodwork-mag.com/index.html

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=62243
(Scroll down to the entry by Bob Smalser)

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html


Instructional Videos: All of the videos listed below are available from the Lie-Nielsen web site. Rob Cosman’s woodworking DVDs are superb, as are David Charlesworth’s. I haven’t had a chance to watch Chris Schwartz’s DVDs yet, but they have gotten very positive reviews from those that have seen them.

Brian Boggs:

Drawknives, Spokeshaves, and Travishers – A Chairmaker’s Tool Kit

David Charlesworth:

Hand Tool Techniques Part 1: Plane Sharpening
Hand Tool Techniques Part 2: Hand Planing
Hand Tool Techniques Part 3: Precision Shooting Simplified
Hand Tool Techniques: Precision Preparation of Chisels for Accurate Joinery
Chisel Techniques for Precision Joinery

Rob Cosman:

Hand-Cut Dovetails
Advanced Hand-Cut Dovetails
Rough to Ready
Hand-Cut Mortise and Tenon
Mastering the Dovetail Saw

Tom Law:

Hand Saw Sharpening

A FEW GENERAL COMMENTS:

While this is by no means an all-inclusive list, there's not a lot that you can't do with a tool set similar to that listed above. It's not too terribly expensive to set yourself up with, especially if you buy good quality older tools off that (in)famous auction site (eBay), from some of the old tool dealers, or at the flea market and yard sales. And, hand tools (except for the bench) have the advantage of not taking up very much room, either in use or for storage, and are generally pretty quiet in use.

All of the commentary and suggestions contained herein are based on my experience, interests, and preferences in woodworking techniques, methods, tools, etc. Yours will obviously vary. Like nearly everything else in woodworking, there is more than one way to accomplish a given task, so…the purpose of this document is not to be “prescriptive,” or to publish an “authoritative” tool list; it is intended merely as another resource to help woodworkers that are interested in using hand tools. If, after reading and considering the information above, you have found it helpful or useful, then it will have accomplished its purpose.

One last sugggestion: buy the best quality tools you can afford, so you only have to buy them once...... (This also largely avoids having to “fight” the deficiencies of a poor-quality/cheap tool while you are trying to learn how to use it, and wondering whether the problem is your technique or the tool.)

Good luck, and have fun setting up your shop and with your woodworking!!

[Robert Rozaieski]

Here's a basic set of woodworking hand tools that will allow you to make almost anything from wood:

My compliments James for such a well thought out and comprehensive post and tool list. With the tools and references you have highlighted here, one can indeed build almost anything from wood.

(The remainder of this post is not directed at James, but I will use his post/tool list as an example, as these types of lists have been posted many times before).

My one beef with these types of posts/lists is that while they are not generally all inclusive, they certainly are not single project oriented, and hence, these types of lists can be extremely intimidating to folks just trying to get started. These lists have the potential to easily add up to several thousand dollars. For someone with little to no woodworking experience who doesn't know any better, a list this big with a price tag that high has the potential to turn them away from the craft before they even get started.

My recommendation to the OP and anyone else just getting started is instead to print and save James’ list for future reference (it is indeed a very good reference). For now, pick a project you want to make and figure out what tools you need to make it. Then get those tools only. This is what I recommend anyone trying to get started do rather than try to figure out what tools they might need in the future. You don't need to buy all of the tools you might need at some point before you build something :). You can buy tools in the future as well ;), and believe me, you will :D.

As an example, and at the risk of being somewhat hypocritical, I put together my own list a couple of weeks ago in preparation for a podcast. However, instead of trying to cover as many situations as I can, I've focused the list on a specific project. The project is a Newport inspired tea table, and it is a project I am actually going to be doing on my podcast in the coming weeks, using this very set of tools (if Queen Anne isn‘t your style, the design of the table could easily be modified to a shaker or contemporary style as well). Everything in this list could easily be purchased for between $200 and $300, maybe less if you are really willing to feed from the bottom and put some effort into finding deals and cleaning up and tuning some hidden gems.

The only thing missing from the list is a workbench, but this doesn't have to be a Roubo (or Nicholson or any of the other benches from Chris' book). These benches are nice but not a necessity to get started. To get started, you just need a place to work. Save the nice bench for later after you've figured out how you personally like to work and the types of things you like building. Building a $1000 dollar workbench before you even figure out your personal style of working is a waste of effort and money as you will undoubtedly evolve as you gain more skill and knowledge. A flat, solid core door anchored to a couple of sawhorses would be perfectly fine. It just needs to be solid enough to plane on.

So here's an advance copy of the suggested tool list for this specific project. The official list and design notes for the project will be available on my web site in a couple of weeks. If this isn’t your style of project, simply pick a different project and figure out what tools you will need for that project. Then focus on getting and tuning up only those tools, and building the project. Really, the best way to learn is to get some wood and just do it ;).

[James Owen]

My compliments James for such a well thought out and comprehensive post and tool list. With the tools and references you have highlighted here, one can indeed build almost anything from wood.........

Bob,

Thanks for the kind words!

You make a very good point about the potential for a tool list such as the one I posted being intimidating to the extent of possibly driving a would-be woodworker from the craft. Obviously not my intention, and the advice to pick a project and acquire, as necessary, the tools needed for it is very sound. I am probably going to add that idea to the commentary in my list.

On the other hand, it seems to me that it is useful for beginning Neanders to have some idea of what a more or less "full" tool set (depending, of course, on the types of things that one builds) could look like.

Anyway, I hope that the information in my post is of some use to those that are willing to slog through its length.....

BTW, really enjoy your podcasts; very nicely done, with great ideas, demos, etc.

[David Gendron]

Weel said and proposed Bob! Great work on the "perfect tool list" James!!

So my liste is.... Just kiding!

[Johnny Kleso]

If you really enjoy hand tools go for it...
I love tools but after I bought 800 BF of rough lumber I am glade I own power tools..

If you just making small projects and buying S4 sure you can do it..
At least buy a circular saw and router or you will spend a ton of money on saws and moulding planes..

Just so you know it is 10x cheaper to buy the best power tools made than go the hand tool to route IMHO

[Bob Smalser]

Sorry Bob but there are simply too many of use doing exactly that for your comment to be valid. I haven't purchased pre-finished lumber in a very long time and yet I've never seen any reason to buy a jointer. I do have a thickness planer, however. You are simply overstating the time required to face and edge boards using handplanes.

Cheers --- Larry

Good for you. Although my point remains that after a a beginner achieves basic hand tool skills, given the finite amount of time available that plagues us all, every hour spent in stock prep is an hour subtracted from the fit-and-finish end where all the more advanced cabinetmaking skills reside. Dustin clearly states in Post #1 he wants to "create furniture", not just make shavings, and my experience is that letting machines help him achieve flat, square and plumb from the start is a wise choice.

Here's one that is single-project oriented. Below is a typical medium-sized cabinet's worth of rough-cut, air-dried 4/4 true and 5/4 true in its final drying stage stuffed behind an interior door. Besides jointing, panel layups, ripping/planing to final widths and crosscutting to final lengths, the final cabinet is composed of parts in thicknesses of 7/8, 3/4, 1/2 and 3/8". Knock yourselves out, gentlemen. ;)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/374627987.jpg

[Robert Rozaieski]

Good for you. Although my point remains that after a a beginner achieves basic hand tool skills, given the finite amount of time available that plagues us all, every hour spent in stock prep is an hour subtracted from the fit-and-finish end where all the more advanced cabinetmaking skills reside.

Here's one that is single-project oriented. Below is a typical medium-sized cabinet's worth of rough-cut, air-dried 4/4 true and 5/4 true in its final drying stage stuffed behind an interior door. Besides jointing, panel layups, ripping/planing to final widths and crosscutting to final lengths, the final cabinet is composed of parts in thicknesses of 7/8, 3/4, 1/2 and 3/8". Knock yourselves out, lads. ;)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/374627987.jpg
Bob,

I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your wisdom of the craft. Your experience far surpasses mine, both personally and professionally and I have gleaned many bits of knowledge from your many posts and articles on various subjects.

But come on! This is not typical cabinet wood and perfectly supports the fact that someone who works by hand is going to work completely differently from someone doing all of the "grunt" work by machine. I would never use 3-4" wide stock and glue up a wide panel. Never. It's ineffecient, and a waste of time and effort. Using stock this narrow is commonly done in a machine shop because it is cheaper than wide stock and due to the width limitations of machines like jointers and planers. Working by hand, I have no such limitations. This allows me to significantly speed up the process of planing. If I need a 12" deep cabinet, I start with a 12" wide board. If I need a case side for a 20" deep chest of drawers, I will glue up no more than 3 boards about 7" wide each to get there, and I'd actually prefer to do it in two 10-11" wide boards if I can. It takes just as long to plane a rough 5" wide board flat and true as a rough 12" wide board when doing it by hand so using wider lumber is an advantage to those of us doing it by hand. The wood you have pictured above would be used for nothing more than door frames and molding (if the grain was well behaved enough) in my shop.

Here is a piece I completed some months back (at an earlier stage).
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99433&d=1225026861

The sides of this case are almost 8' tall and at their widest point, 21" deep. Not a single wide panel in this case was glued up from more than 2 boards. All of this lumber was dressed from rough 4/4 stock by hand with a rank set fore plane and a try plane. The top shelves are all single boards, 12" deep. The three wider shelves at the lower half of the case are all 21" deep or more and are all two boards only.

Just for giggles when I was doing this project, I timed myself planing one of the faces of one of the wide boards. The board was 12" wide x 36" long (typical cabinet sized wood in my opinion). It took me 8 minutes to plane one of the faces of that board to flat and true. The long 8' x 12" wide boards took me about 30-40 minutes for one face.

I'm not bragging and I'm not trying to convince anyone that one way is better or worse than another. I think every one should try it both ways and decide for themselves how they prefer to work and I certainly don't think anyone should be discouraged from trying to do it by hand because "it's too slow" or discouraged from doing it by machine because "it's too loud and dusty". I think everyone should do what pleases them personally.

I have done it both ways and have my preferences. My only point is that hand planing lumber from rough sawn stock is not as inefficient as some might suggest. And in fact, some of us actually enjoy doing it. However, to be effecient, the thought process of someone who works entirely by hand needs to be different. Selecting appropriate boards is an important part of that process.

[Bob Smalser]

Of course, then again there are these....

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/378511142.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/39181107.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/79634787.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/38474568.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/36624721.jpg

Victorian pieces that remain highly popular. There are no shortage of single, Victorian-era family heirlooms out there that are more than worthy of building a matching suite of furniture around.

Well, except for final fit and finish tasks, in accurate reproductions it's not really appropriate to have unfinished or tool-marked surfaces anywhere on these, as the originals were designed and made in celebration of machine-tool woodworking and the increased design freedom it provided. Hence all the curves, moldings, beading and oddball machined joints like the cove-and-pin that are difficult to reproduce.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/41055236.jpg

So if we're talking about creating furniture, sure you can do it all using hand tools. But that's not even appropriate for some work you may want to take on, let alone developing the sense of lines, proportions and color necessary for designing your own pieces as well as making them from scratch. Start slow, keep an open mind and pick your projects progressively to gain skills.

[James Scheffler]

Just so you know it is 10x cheaper to buy the best power tools made than go the hand tool to route IMHO

I don't know about that. The other day I figured out that I had $125 in two smooth planes (Stanley No. 4 + Hock blade and Lee Valley blade for wooden plane + wood). That's about the same price as a good random orbit sander plus a couple of boxes of sanding disks.

Also, all my bench planes combined (including the smooth planes noted above plus some other Stanleys) would be less than an entry level jointer. If I threw in my work bench ($100 vise plus douglass fir lumber) and sharpening supplies, all that together would be about equal to an entry level jointer. (I'm assuming the jointer would cost around $450). For the planes, I'm talking about dealer prices, but I know that some have picked up nice ones for $5-10.

Of course, if I paid myself $10 per hour for the cost of building or tuning those tools, the power tools would be a lot cheaper. :)

On the other hand, I agree with your comment that a router and a large selection of bits is cheaper than buying moulding planes for all those profiles, not to mention a plow plane, rabbet planes, etc.

Jim

Edit: The bench planes would also replace a planer, saving around $300 for an entry-level model.

[Rod Sheridan]

I like instant gratification so I use machinery and hand tools.

I use a jointer and planer for stock preperation, then a hand plane/card scraper for final surface prep on visible surfaces.

I use a tablesaw, bandsaw, drill press and shaper.

I also use a wooden router plane, shoulder plane, block plane, chisels etc to refine joints roughed out by machinery, or cut out by hand depending upon what I'm doing.

A good example was making Morris chairs, I had a ton of spindles to make, so a ton of tenons and mortices. A hollow chisel mortiser and shaper made short work of multiple pieces.

Conversely if I'm making a few tenons or mortices, hand tools are just as fast because I don't have to do setup.

When I took woodworking in High School, it almost put me off the hobby. At the beginning, all we did was handplane stuff into some new shape, for which there's no name. It was tedious, frustrating and boring.

Machines properly applied, can remove the tedious and boring from the work, leaving the satisfying aspects to the hand tool side, while encouraging you with some good results.

If I had more hobby time my balance would shift from 70/30 machine/hand to maybe 40/60, however I use hand tools for the jobs that I find them superior for, while relegating the boring/repetitious to the machine.

I think they both have equal value, just different applications.

Regards, Rod.

[Dustin Irby]

Whew!! OK, my head is spinning a bit :-). I couldn't have asked for better responses to my original post and I think you guys are putting me on the right track. I do have some basic power tools and chisels already, so that's a start. I've got some things I need to get a good feel for pretty quickly... sharpening and handplanes. I've just tried scary sharp/sandpaper sharpening for the first time with no honing jig with mixed results. I think my test chisels are sharper... but there's not much scary about them :). I've been going back and forth on whether to order a honing jig or not, but figured I'd give it a try without to see what results I can achieve. As for handplanes... we don't have much around here as far as flea markets and I've checked some estate sales and antique dealers with no luck. I've seen some old Stanleys on some of the websites recommended around here, but they look pretty rough to me. I don't know if I should care about the looks, since I'm looking for affordable users, but is it a big deal to have a broken tote?

Anyway, I feel like I'm all over the place and definitely need to gain more focus as to what I want to do. Bob's recommendation to focus on a project is the way I need to go. It's interesting how all the information out there just spirals out of control :eek:. One minute I'm researching hand saws, then sharpening them, then building a saw vise, then I see some people makeing their own hand saws and want to learn more about that. I just have to gain focus and get started on something. I have a small box project in mind that I should be able to pull off with hand tools... but we'll see.

Bob, I'd love to start your podcast project as well, but will probably have some trouble getting those tools lined up and in use in time. A couple of small tables are high on my list to build around here too.

Thanks again to everyone for taking time to help me out. I have many more questions that will need answering, so I hope I don't wear out my welcome and can someday help someone else out along the way!

[Jim Koepke]

I don't know if I should care about the looks, since I'm looking for affordable users, but is it a big deal to have a broken tote?

A broken tote can be repaired. It is easier if all the pieces are present. One of the funny things about planes, is often it is easier and cheaper to buy a junker plane with good wood than it is to buy just the wood. That is how a lot of my users came about. Thought I was buying junk just for the wood and when cleaned up, they ended up being better planes than the ones I was trying to get new handles. When I needed the wood, had to buy ones with broken castings to avoid getting something that could be put back to work.


Thanks again to everyone for taking time to help me out. I have many more questions that will need answering, so I hope I don't wear out my welcome and can someday help someone else out along the way!

That is the great thing about the folks around here. Most of us are happy to help others.

Your profile doesn't show your location. There may be others in your area who can direct you to places to look for tools or mentoring.

jim

[David Gendron]

Well Said Bob, I totaly agree with you even if I'm "green" at wood working overall. I have been doing it seriously for about a year and so far like every aspect of it(hand tool work) other maybe, ripping boards that are more than 8" wide!!

[Joe Cunningham]

Dustin there is a good honing jig for little $$$, the one with the skinny wheel and it looks like cast aluminum. I also have the Veritas Mark II, and actually use the cheaper one more often because it is very easy to put a slight camber on my plane blades.

For chisels I use the Veritas because I want them with straight edges (no camber).

I have some hand-me down oil stones that work quite well, but also ponied up for some Shapton water stones. I started with scary sharp and it works well, but the paper wears out too fast IMO for long-term use.

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

Sandpaper sharpening is a good place to start. When I was starting off I found the muscle memory required to do it by hand too difficult; the Eclipse-style jig (which is the cheap thing LV sells at http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=60311&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1 and probably other people sell too) is not a bad place to get started although it has some issues. Certainly you can get a fixed angle pretty easily. It might be easier for you to take a class that involves it; it's not the easiest thing to do in the world from nothing. It's pretty normal for your idea of what's a good sharpening job to get more and more demanding as you get better; don't worry too much about that. The test that everybody suggests is shaving pine endgrain, but I usually use my fingernail to test. Pretty sharp and really really sharp are quite different there, I find.

[Dustin Irby]

I didn't realize my location isn't showing. I'm in Central Virginia.... Lynchburg, VA to be exact. Another thing I need to find is a good hopefully local source of wood. Right now I've only got the BORG's and red oak, pine and poplar aren't gonna cut if for long :D.

[David Gendron]

Actualy, Pine and Poplar are great wood to work with either as secondary wood or as primery one... Not every thing as to made of Curly Spalted Birds Eye Hard Maple!!!

[James Owen]

actualy, pine and poplar are great wood to work with either as secondary wood or as primery one... Not every thing as to made of curly spalted birds eye hard maple!!!
...........


!

[David Keller NC]

I didn't realize my location isn't showing. I'm in Central Virginia.... Lynchburg, VA to be exact. Another thing I need to find is a good hopefully local source of wood. Right now I've only got the BORG's and red oak, pine and poplar aren't gonna cut if for long :D.

Dustin - You are well placed to have access to lots and lots of user/collector antique tools, and some of the best lumber to be found in the entire US. Many of our Western States bretheren would be very jealous.

For antique tools, you've several routes to take. One's of course, E-Bay. However, I would recommend you avoid this route for the moment, because there's a lot of unusable junk sold on that site as well as some real gems, and it can be very difficult for a beginner to tell the difference. Instead, I would suggest you go the route of an established and trustworthy dealer. You will pay more for the tools initially, but you will not spend money on junk, either. One particular individual that's close to you that is 100% trustworthy is Lee Richmond in Herndon, VA. His site is www.thebesththings.com (http://www.thebesththings.com), and if you call him up and tell him you're looking for nice users that will not need much tuning, he will have what you need. Realize that he also sells collector's items, but he understands the difference, so call him.

There are also multiple other trustworthy dealers that will be out of driving distance, but just search through some of hte FAQs and you'll dig them up with no trouble.

Also, particularly if you're interested in aquiring an antique tool set rather than new stuff, you really, really want to give the local president of the MWTCA (Mid-West Tool Collector's Association) a call. He will know multiple individuals, perhaps even in Lynchburg, that will have good user tools for sale, often at less than e-bay prices.

From the standpoint of lumber, you could not be more well-positioned to get seriously out of this world lumber at prices that are a heck of a lot cheaper than the Borg. Simply search on www.woodfinder.com (http://www.woodfinder.com) and put in your zip. I guarantee that there will be a local yard in Lynchburg or close by that caters to woodworkers, and will be full of superb Virginia black walnut, figured soft maple, wide eastern white pine, cedar, and perhaps some excellent Pennsylvania cherry.

[David Gendron]

So Dustin, look like you are in the right neck of the wood... Good luck with your journey!

[Dustin Irby]

More tremendously helpful information. Thanks!

[michael a nelson]

dustin if you are so inclined i could sell you some starter tools such as hand planes chisels saws but going complet neander means a fare amount of sharpening of saws chisels planes but if you are interested shoot me a pm and ill get you some pics