For Sale CHEAP! Epilog Legend 36 EXT [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Kevin Groenke

11-18-2009, 10:09 PM

OUCH!!

Here is some fire related advice from our laser instructions... and some others.

NEVER LEAVE THE ROOM WHILE THE LASER IS RUNNING!!!
If there is any indication of trouble, press Pause or Open the door, IMMEDIATELY! Remember, there is a FIRE
EXTINGUISHER behind you!
If the laser starts on fire (and they do) and you were not in the room, there will be HTP!!!

�� If any material or settings produce a prolonged flame during cutting, stop the machine
immediately by pressing the “STOP” button on the machines panel. Either the material is unsafe
for cutting or the power settings are too high. If you don’t know, ask for assistance. Continuing to
run the machine causes damage for which you will be liable.

If ever you need to leave the room, make sure to push the pause button, we
don!t want you to start a fire! NEVER EVER LEAVE A MACHINE
UNATTENDED. Privileges can be revoked!

Dean Strickland

11-18-2009, 10:13 PM

Thought I would get an early jump on Christmas gifts.
Was cutting the 19 pt acrylic snowflakes and nature called.
Lesson was read over and over on here never to leave your laser while running.
Well, lesson learned. Even 3 minutes was way too long.
Spendy lesson.
Insurance says it's not covered because it was a business even though it was out of my garage and I haven't made any money at it. No bank account was ever created because most of what I did was gifts to get my name out there, and practice.
What a kick in the pants.

Dean Strickland

11-18-2009, 10:20 PM

donald bugansky

11-18-2009, 10:20 PM

So sorry to hear/see your situation.

So thankful/blessed that no one was hurt and it appears the garage is still in tact.

Dean Strickland

11-18-2009, 10:22 PM

MOST of the garage is still intact.
The demolition team is coming tomorrow to start tearing it apart and repairing.

daniel lane

11-18-2009, 11:22 PM

Wow. My deepest sympathies, Dean. I'm glad you and (most) of the house are okay.

daniel

Doug Griffith

11-18-2009, 11:30 PM

I feel for you!!! Wow. That is horrible.

I also hope the admin doesn't move this thread because it is a brutal reminder for all of us to use safe practices. Don't leave a running machine unattended. Chit happens.

Doug

Bruce Petron

11-18-2009, 11:45 PM

I did't think snowflakes could burn, i did fry one last year but caught it in time.
Must be the Minnesota Snow that burns so easy

Bruce

Dean Strickland

11-19-2009, 12:33 AM

That is the main reason I posted this - as a reminder to all.
Like I said, I have made many of these and while at the machine, no issues.
Walk away and the Fire Fairies will attack.
I'm glad it was just a quick 3 minute nature call, but I could not believe how fast everything went up.
I have been a Creeker since I got my laser about 2-1/2 years ago and everyone here is absolutely the best class of people around.
I never had much to contribute but learned much from all of you and I thank you all for that.
Now I guess this is my greatest contribution to the Creek as a stark reminder to all that it happens and it can happen so very fast.
Thanks to all for everything. I have another couple of years to pay this one off and then I will look at getting another one, Lord willing. But until then I will continue to support the Creek who knows what the future may bring...

kyna cass

11-19-2009, 1:19 AM

All I can think when I look at your photos is "Oh my goodness ! Unbelieable ! "
I feel very badly for you. What a crying shame...I am thankful no one was hurt.
Thank you for reminding us how important it is to stand by your machine while operating.

Rodne Gold

11-19-2009, 1:37 AM

I really sympathise with you on this misfortune...a double whammy , the fire and the insurance repudiation.

Perhaps you might be lucky and find some of the parts are salvageable , like the tube or some of the hard parts like rails and so forth.

onur cakir

11-19-2009, 4:46 AM

Dean...i feel so sorry for you. Thanks god you have no major damage at home.

Maybe a stupid question but....you were using airassist while cutting right ?

Frank Corker

11-19-2009, 5:23 AM

Jeepers Dean, bad luck old boy, really sorry this has happened to you. It is very sad evidence that you can't turn your back on the machine when cutting. We've probably all done it at some time.

I too am curious about the air assist, was it in use? I was recently making a box for one of my clients and I had the piece covered with transfer tape to stop burning on the surface of the wood. I noticed that there was a small fire trail moving along as it cut, which was really troubling me, enough that I never actually left the machine even to get a cigarette. When the job finished I switched off the laser, also the air extract, but not the air assist. It wasn't working.

On examination of my compressor, which is outside my cabin in a specially made concrete outer building, the air intake which is a very very fine mesh, was all clogged. It meant that the compressor was working hard but not being able to intake the air made it useless. I tried cleaning it and putting it back. It was fine for a while but then clogged within a week.

Finally I removed the mesh cover and this vastly improved performance but within a short time I noticed I was getting the burning trail again. I could hear the compressor, removal of the hose just where it enters showed loads of pressure, but inside at the lens, nothing! Anyway I removed the right hand panel of my Helix, the next push in valve had pushed out. I pushed it back, no difference and it occured to me that the only reason it could have pushed out was from a blockage further along the air line. Epilog's machines are really very easy for doing your own maintenance (that's an opinion not a sales pitch), there are about three small screws holding the air hose in position from entering the machine casing.

My check lead me all the way to the long spirally tube which runs along the xy with the laser head. A firm blow through the system cleared whatever was causing the problem. I suspect it was something that had got into the hose when it got blocked the first time, but I can't be sure. I was actually amazed at how much pressure gets forced through the small pipe and I can only put that down to the tube being much narrower than the supply hose going into the laser.

So when I turn on the air assist now, there is a very visible hiss as the air pours through down onto the work area, in fact I would say it is much more noticeable than it has ever been. Maybe the blockage was in there when I first got the machine, I can't be positive, but cutting now there is definitely no fire trail.

I'm sorry Dean, it doesn't help your situation, but it may help other engravers. If I get a good one on the lotto, I'll sort you out mate.

Mike Null

11-19-2009, 5:59 AM

Dean

So sorry about your misfortune. Thank you for posting as it will certainly serve as a sobering reminder to all of us.

Dan Hintz

11-19-2009, 6:49 AM

The laser cartridge may be salvageable (with a lens rebuild), but everything else is toast... rubber is certainly melted, bearings are cooked, electronics are either melted or smoke damaged,etc. The stand is probably salvageable, if anyone needs another.

Sorry to see such a sight, Dean.

Dee Gallo

11-19-2009, 7:43 AM

Wow, Dean, it's incredible to think that THAT much damage can be done in 3 short minutes. Thanks for the safety reminder, I know I have left my laser for a few minutes too and shouldn't. I won't be doing that anymore, your pictures have me scared straight.

I hope you will be able to replace the laser and resume your fun and games soon.

Thanks again for sharing your experience - as bad as it was, maybe some good will come of it.

:) dee

Mike Null

11-19-2009, 8:28 AM

Dean

FWIW, a few years ago we had a severe lightning storm and a couple of thousand dollars worth of electronics damage was done to various pieces my equipment. My home owners insurance picked up the tab but told me my laser would no longer be covered in my homeowners policy.

I would make a very strong appeal to your insurance company especially in view of the fact that you are not operating a business.

Greg Bednar

11-19-2009, 9:33 AM

Belinda Barfield

11-19-2009, 9:56 AM

So sorry to read about this Dean! I'm with Frank, if I win the lottery I'll surely send some of the payout your way. In the meantime, as others have said, I think you should definitely have another conversation with your insurance company. Another good lesson learned from your experience . . . make sure your laser is covered.

Sheryl Haley

11-19-2009, 9:58 AM

Dean,
I'm so sorry for your loss. I too have an Epilog Legend 36 EXT. Looking at your pictures the thought of it going up in flames is just devastating.

At times I have walked away from my machine while it was running thinking everything is OK, but after hearing your story I will now think twice about doing so.

Again sorry for your loss,
Sheryl Haley

Dave Johnson29

11-19-2009, 10:14 AM

Hi Dean,

Sorry to see the mess. You may be able to rebuild it depending on how much damage has been done to the laser and the electronics. I would not get too disheartened at this point. I rebuilt my old ULS from about the same condition, albeit not burned but pretty trashed.

Start by cleaning up everything so you can assess the actual damage. Mirrors and lenses are not that expensive when purchased from 3rd party suppliers.

Take your time to do the cleaning and do it carefully and do not try to move stuff until it is all clean then begin a gentle disassemble. Take digital pics (use the Macro setting) before every move so you can see what goes where when putting it back together.

at first blush it appears your insurance company has come up with a creative means of not paying on a claim.

Greg: I don't think the insurance company is at fault here as most, if not all policies will have a "business declaration" clause. I had to have my agent add the clause specifically to state what is covered and what is not.

Sadly, it's too late for Dean, but it would be prudent for everyone who works from home to check with their insurance company and get it in writing that home-based business equipment is covered.

It did not cost me any more to have it covered, but the important thing was that it was in the Policy conditions.

Norberto Coutinho

11-19-2009, 10:24 AM

To Dean = I am too so sorry. Now I am thinking to put inside my cheap made in China laser engraver 2 or 3 temperature sensors working with a BIG sound device.

To Sherryl and to all = Why not Epilog and others do not suplly a cheap device like I think with the machines?

Sorry for my bad english.

Dan Hintz

11-19-2009, 10:37 AM

Why not Epilog and others do not suplly a cheap device like I think with the machines?
I don't know about others, but I know my ULS has a heat sensor towards the back of the machine... if fire breaks out, it's supposed to wail.

Mike Null

11-19-2009, 10:41 AM

Does it shut the machine down as well?

Dan Hintz

11-19-2009, 10:42 AM

Sorry to see the mess. You may be able to rebuild it depending on how much damage has been done to the laser and the electronics. I would not get too disheartened at this point. I rebuilt my old ULS from about the same condition, albeit not burned but pretty trashed.
Dave,

Did you look at the pictures? That machine is trashed. The main carriage guide rail is half-eaten from the fire, so I guarantee everything from the rails up will need to be replaced. The heat melted the front panel controls, so I guarantee it will need to be replaced, and I doubt much insulation survived on any wire within the machine. The only thing that may be salvageable is the casing, and even that may have warped due to the heat. If the laser cartridge was shielded from the heat by the casing, it may have survived. The fire obviously raged for a couple of minutes in there.

Harvey Lentchner

11-19-2009, 11:13 AM

Do not let the contractor touch anything until you get a private insurance adjuster to see and take pictures. You were using it for gifts not business.

Private insurance adjusters are amazing, after a storm I had to use one. It went from minor repair compensation to full refurbishing of damaged areas. GET ONE FAST.

Mike Null

11-19-2009, 11:31 AM

Harv

Glad to have you on board at SMC. I hope you have time to participate as your expertise and experience will be invaluable.

Mike Mackenzie

11-19-2009, 11:57 AM

Mike,

Yes it does, All ULS systems now use a special safety glass on the top door to contain any fire inside the system. If it happened.

Dan Hintz

11-19-2009, 12:18 PM

All ULS systems now use a special safety glass on the top door to contain any fire inside the system.
Now all we need is a halon-style system inside that will also kill off any remaining flames :D

Hmmm, now that I'm thinking about it... if you flooded the cart with a few second blast of N2, that might do the same job.

Dave Johnson29

11-19-2009, 12:19 PM

Did you look at the pictures?

<grin> Dan, did you look at my Signature?

I have a machine shop alongside the laser. I had to CAD/CAM machine the entire X-carriage for mine as the wheels had all broken off. The X-rails were trashed, in fact the only part I actually re-used was the Y-Carriage and the drive pulleys.

I would hazard a guess at 200+ hours I put in on it, but it was a hobby repair job. I paid 300-bucks for it and now have a very usable, but not pretty machine. I do not subscribe to the toss-it-and-buy-a-new-one, crowd's view.

Looking at Dean's machine, if the tube is still salvageable the mechanics for the rest is pretty straight forward. He might have to buy a few parts from Epilog but I would be surprised if patience and ingenuity couldn't get it all back to a working status. The front panel looks OK, that's a good start.

The lens carrier and mirror mounts might be OK, just needing new glass. I am assuming they are not made of plastic but aluminum or such.

I am not suggesting putting it back together from all Epilog purchased parts but instead adapting and making stuff work. I see it as an entertaining project. If Dean lived closer, I would be over there with the truck in a heartbeat.

He still has money to pay out so he has nothing to lose with attempting a rebuild as I see it.

Rodne Gold

11-19-2009, 12:20 PM

Some GCC machines also have a fire detection system tho its an option , called smartguard , will activate an alarm and shut the machine down.
You might also find that if you financed the machine , there might just be an insurance policy on it from the finance house/bank that is not part of your homeowners policy??

Dave Johnson29

11-19-2009, 12:22 PM

if you flooded the cart with a few second blast of N2, that might do the same job.

Just use Nitrogen or CO2 for the air assist. Problem solved before the fire rather than dealing with it after it is aflame. :)

Scott Shepherd

11-19-2009, 12:26 PM

I tend to agree with Dave on this one. It's shocking at first glance, but when you look at the photos, you see things like the air assist tube still in tack on the right hand side. You see the belt still in tact. Seems like the fire was pretty contained in the center work area. A new XY beam, a wiring harness, LCD, and a few small bits and you might be up and running.

I'll offer up $500 for it :)

Dave Russell Smith

11-19-2009, 12:31 PM

Insurance says it's not covered because it was a business even though it was out of my garage and I haven't made any money at it.

I have the same problem regarding my machine not being insured, i have mine in the garage but as I'm not earning enough yet to pay monthly buisness premiums $96/month I have to keep my fingers crossed and keep a good eye on the machine. They will not insure it under my house insurance :mad:

Peck Sidara

11-19-2009, 12:58 PM

Dean,

Those pictures are very difficult to look at. As others have stated, it's a sore reminder to never leave your machine unattended.

I'm not a big fan of insurance companies, always eager to take your premiums but always find a way to hold off, weasel out of paying claims.

I am confident it can be rebuilt but the system would have to be shipped back to the factory for quote & repair. Not likely a choice for you due to costs but is an option if you can get the insurance company to pay.

Although the Epilog Legend EXT doesn't offer any type of thermal switches or alarm systems, following the guidelines in the manual and warning labels on the machine reiterates the importance of fire safety.

A basic battery operated smoke detector and fire extinguisher should be considered for those that have or are considering a laser.

Please accept my sincere condolences to you and your family. Hopefully everything works out for the better.

Andrea Weissenseel

11-19-2009, 1:17 PM

Oh my goodness - sorry to see that :eek: fortunately no one got hurt though. Hope you really get it resolved with your insurance company

That really reminds me not to leave the machine unattended.

Andrea

Tim Bateson

11-19-2009, 1:19 PM

I don't even know what to sat that hasn't already been said. However those images will burn in my brain when I think about walking away from an active job.

Martin Boekers

11-19-2009, 1:46 PM

Dean,

Like others suggested, take a look at your lease or finacing contract. Most require some form of insurance to protect their interest.

Don't give up on homeowners ins yet, keep talking to them sometimes
you got to get past their "fiewalls" no pun intended.

If you have replacement cost even better, then they will take care of the whole replacement for you with out having to get bids.

I ran into this issue with high-end camera gear that was stolen from me, it took about 6 months and many conversations but, the finally agreed and replaced it.

Keep pushing!

Marty

Kevin Groenke

11-19-2009, 2:11 PM

Chris Tatarian

11-19-2009, 3:48 PM

Dean,

Sorry for your laser loss. Where you able to determine how the laser caught on fire? I think even if you where there with the laser you might not have enough time to respond. Maybe less damage but I really would pursue insurance and find out what the root cause ot this fire. Typically in acrylic, if you don't have forsed air nozzle at the lens, then the lens needs more cleaning and close watching.

Good Luck with this,

Chris

Chris Tatarian

11-19-2009, 3:54 PM

Dean,

Sorry for your laser loss. I would try to find out what the root cause of the fire came from. Were mirrors cleaned, etc... Also, if you where even in the room I doubt you would have had enough time to put out the fire. I argree with everyone about insurance. You should really pursue this in an assertive manner.

Take care,

Chris

Gary Hair

11-19-2009, 3:55 PM

Insurance says it's not covered because it was a business even though it was out of my garage and I haven't made any money at it. No bank account was ever created because most of what I did was gifts to get my name out there, and practice.
What a kick in the pants.

Dean,
I am sorry for your loss, but you can't really blame the insurance company for not covering you. You say that you "haven't made any money at it" - but you are trying to, right? Getting your "name out there" - what's that mean? As a hobbyist or to get to a point where you can make money? You sure sound like a business to me. Like others have mentioned, you could probably have added your business equipment on your homeowners policy, but now it's too late. I have State Farm and my agent added a rider to cover me while I was still working out of the house. I don't recall if there was an additional cost, but if there were it wasn't much or I would have remembered. Now that I'm in a shop, I pay $500 per year to have everything covered. The company is Zurich but I bought it through an agent.

I'm truly sorry you may not get any help from your insurance, that's a very expensive lesson to learn.

Gary

Gary Hair

11-19-2009, 3:59 PM

monthly buisness premiums $96/month

Dave,
Have you shopped around for insurance? I pay $500 per year and I'm in a building that's over 40 years old - certainly not up to current fire code. I know that when you don't have the income it's hard to part with the insurance premium, but what if you lost the laser to a fire, then how much would you be out per month? I'm just sayin...

Gary

Mike Null

11-19-2009, 4:08 PM

Gary

State Farm paid my claim under home owners even though I was running a business. They considered it one of my shop tools.

It was after they paid that they said they would no longer cover it under home owners insurance.

daniel lane

11-19-2009, 5:43 PM

I've read through additional comments and would like to add something re: the insurance situation. If there's not been a bank account set up, have you filed for a DBA? Is there any paper trail at all to indicate that this is/was a business? If not, it's got to be hard to enforce the business exclusion. I've sold pens that I've made, but not filed for a DBA nor established a bank account - does that mean I'm running a (very, very slow) pen business?

Not sure this helps much, but I agree with others that I would continue to work with your insurance agency. If nothing else, it sounds like you were trying to establish the clientele for a business rather than actually running a business. (And to naysayers, those two can be mutually exclusive. If you have your own business, can you say that you did you not test the waters before starting up?)

daniel

Bill Cunningham

11-19-2009, 10:40 PM

Unless you had a business/tax thingy or what ever you need in your state that says your a 'real' business, then you not. It's 'hobby' equipment, very much like any other piece of wood working or hobby equipment. I would certainly challenge your insurance co. on this point. To say your a business, and deny your claim they should have to prove your a business. Again, as someone pointed out your finance/lease company may be able to put some pressure on them, or as a last resort a law suit could be in order. After all, lasers ain't cheap! Hope everything turns out well for you..

Rangarajan Saravana kumar

11-20-2009, 2:54 AM

Dean,

Very very unfortunate to have lost your machine in such a bad condition

we should be learning from this that, unattending would lead to danger

Kindly accept our apologies for your loss, looking forward to come up quickly.

Regards,
Saravana kumar

George Brown

11-20-2009, 2:55 AM

Dean,
I am sorry for your loss, but you can't really blame the insurance company for not covering you. You say that you "haven't made any money at it" - but you are trying to, right? Getting your "name out there" - what's that mean? As a hobbyist or to get to a point where you can make money? You sure sound like a business to me. Like others have mentioned, you could probably have added your business equipment on your homeowners policy, but now it's too late. I have State Farm and my agent added a rider to cover me while I was still working out of the house. I don't recall if there was an additional cost, but if there were it wasn't much or I would have remembered. Now that I'm in a shop, I pay $500 per year to have everything covered. The company is Zurich but I bought it through an agent.

I'm truly sorry you may not get any help from your insurance, that's a very expensive lesson to learn.

Gary

YES YOU CAN BLAME THE INSURANCE COMPANY. They squeeze every penny they can out of you for the premium, but when it comes time to pay, they will find all sorts of excuses to reneg on the agreement. They are as sleezy as the day is long. Unless they can prove that you were a business, it was just a very expensive hobby. Since it was not scheduled seperately, you might have a depreciation loss, but that should not amount to too much.

Mike Lassiter

11-20-2009, 2:58 AM

Hello everyone. I've been a member for a while, and trying to learn from all of you. We have a Universal ILS 24"x48" laser with 60 watts. I work full time (50+ hours week) and spend many nights till midnight in our shop, in fact I just came in and logged on here after turning off the laser.

Dean, I hurt for you. We have our "stuff" in a separate building (laser's too big to have in the house). We've never got it all insured, and your misfortune maybe a wakeup call me.

I work for Waste Management, and we are likely the most safety focused company I have ever worked for. Safety meetings every week. It rubs off on you, and you start to bring it home. I find myself turning pot handles when the wife is cooking to avoid hitting the handle and so forth. The point here to my rambling is this. EVERYONE get a fire extinguisher.

I have a 10lb one in the house - about 30 feet from the shop where the laser is. Another wakeup call. I never leave the building when the laser is running. But if a problem did happen by the time I could get the fire extinguisher and get back I can just see my laser looking like Dean's and possibly the $20,000 worth of other stuff in the building. I am going to look into insurance now for sure. As we're trying to get started just as Dean said, I couldn't stand a loss of the magnitude I would have if such happened to us. We haven't made any money either, and if the laser burnt up we never could.

Thanks for sharing your misfortune with us all Dean. You may have saved me or someone else from the same misfortune. Also Thank all of you for sharing you secrets and such. I hope to be able to contribute something before long. Right now I think I could only tell you what NOT to do....

Mike Lassiter
Lexington, TN

Dan Hintz

11-20-2009, 6:44 AM

I've sold pens that I've made, but not filed for a DBA nor established a bank account - does that mean I'm running a (very, very slow) pen business?
Yes, it does... illegally, but you're running a business. The fact that you have not established a DBA means you're most likely not paying business taxes, either. The state/federal government does not look kindly on this.

Just because you're laying low does not mean you're not a business.

Unless you had a business/tax thingy or what ever you need in your state that says your a 'real' business, then you not.
You're not officially recognized as a business by the state, but as I said above, if you accepted money, the state considers your activity business-like and what's their piece of the pie. Same consequences.

States do not recognize "hobby" as a status... if you accept money for products and/or services, you're a business, and they want to regulate/tax it.

Dave Johnson29

11-20-2009, 9:48 AM

States do not recognize "hobby" as a status.

That should be "Some States...."

Some Cities in AZ have a Hobby category that does a lot more than just collecting taxes. For instance it can limit or allow the HP rating of machine tools, noise levels etc.

None of that matters to the insurance company whether it is a real business UNLESS you are taking out business insurance, then you need the proper authorization, permits etc to keep them happy.

Doug Griffith

11-20-2009, 10:28 AM

EVERYONE get a fire extinguisher.

I've got 3 scattered around my house and a big c02 one within grabbing distance of the laser. Don't be cheap and think one of those small kitchen types is going to do you service. They can do more damage than good in some cases. They'll definitely make a mess of things.

daniel lane

11-20-2009, 3:06 PM

Dan Hintz

11-20-2009, 4:04 PM

if simply selling anything without a business license means one is operating an illegal business, the classified section would be rife with criminals.
My comments were about selling without paying taxes, not about the license itself. If you sell something, including in the classifieds, eBay, etc., you must pay taxes. Most don't, but legally speaking they are breaking the law. From that standpoint, yes, every person who places an ad in the classifieds and subsequently sells their stuff without paying taxes is a criminal.

I know, it sounds silly, there's no way we're competing against Wal-Mart or Best Buy with what we create, but there's no "degree" of breaking the law. You either are or you are not. I doubt there's a single person in here who hasn't sold at least one item and not collected/paid taxes on the sale. The government cares, but they don't care enough to hamstring every single little sale.

It may be common practice, but none of us should give the impression that it is somehow legal. I say the same thing every time someone here suggests picking up a student copy of Corel... yes, it's cheaper, and yes, there are easy ways to obtain it, but it's still against their EULA.

Mark Winlund

11-20-2009, 6:48 PM

My comments were about selling without paying taxes, not about the license itself. If you sell something, including in the classifieds, eBay, etc., you must pay taxes. Most don't, but legally speaking they are breaking the law. From that standpoint, yes, every person who places an ad in the classifieds and subsequently sells their stuff without paying taxes is a criminal.

I know, it sounds silly, there's no way we're competing against Wal-Mart or Best Buy with what we create, but there's no "degree" of breaking the law. You either are or you are not. I doubt there's a single person in here who hasn't sold at least one item and not collected/paid taxes on the sale. The government cares, but they don't care enough to hamstring every single little sale.

It may be common practice, but none of us should give the impression that it is somehow legal. I say the same thing every time someone here suggests picking up a student copy of Corel... yes, it's cheaper, and yes, there are easy ways to obtain it, but it's still against their EULA.

I am reminded of what a cop told me once...."there is a law against everything, it is just a matter of selective enforcement."

Mark

David Fairfield

11-20-2009, 8:21 PM

Holy cr#p! Just read this thread. Man, I am soooo sorry that happened. Murphy has perfect timing that way.

Last week I was up to my ears in work, decided to go do something else at the workbench while I ran a file. Good thing I had my ears open, because something sounded not right and sure enough, I came back and the material was on fire!!! :eek: Never happened that way before, and of course it was during the rare moment when I wasn't hovering. It was vectoring when it should only have been doing a light rastering. It was totally my fault :o :(

One other time I set a fire, it was because I allowed chads to build up under the vector grid. That is really good kindling material. Besides keeping an eye on it, keeping the machine clean helps too.

Man, those are sad photos. I hope you recover something and are not out for good.

Dave

lee maisel

11-21-2009, 12:30 AM

Hi Dean,

Greg: I don't think the insurance company is at fault here as most, if not all policies will have a "business declaration" clause. I had to have my agent add the clause specifically to state what is covered and what is not.

Sadly, it's too late for Dean, but it would be prudent for everyone who works from home to check with their insurance company and get it in writing that home-based business equipment is covered.

It did not cost me any more to have it covered, but the important thing was that it was in the Policy conditions.

I disagree about the insurance, since he did not have an "official business" tied to it, he could declare it as a "Hobby", and the laser is a tool for that hobby.
The insurance companies make a heck of a lot of money, and can't be blamed when confronted with fraudulent claims, but we pay for insurance, and they need to be honest and fulfill their end of the deal.

Scott Shepherd

11-21-2009, 9:07 AM

I have cut a lot of acrylic and I've had many fires. I've had it happen so much I've actually tried to study it to try and keep it from happening. We have air assist, blowing through the nose cone, and I've tried everything I can think of. It is fairly random. I've noticed it likes to start the fire on curves, not on straight lines. I've noticed that varying the air pressure from 5 lbs to 40 lbs seems to have little impact. In ALL cases, I've had the material lifted off the table. I have lifted it off the solid aluminum table, and I've lifted off off the downdraft table. I've had fires in both cases.

I've run the same pieces over and over and the fire doesn't always start in the same place. So it doesn't appear to be airflow related to a certain part of the table. It's just an unpredictable thing that happens.

When I say "fire", I mean as I'm watching it, it catches fire. I normally wait a couple of seconds to see if it's just a flare up, which will put itself out, or if the laser and air ejecting the plastic through the cut us actually feeding it more. If it's getting fed, I immediately open the door, which shuts the laser off, and the fire will go out. You can wait a minute or two for the plastic to cool, run it again, and it almost always catches fire in again when it picks up the cut.

Acrylic is a material that has to be respected for sure. We've been lucky, and I hope we continue to pay attention and not leave it unattended for even a minute. It takes about 10 seconds for it catch fire and start really burning, from what I have seen.

Dave Johnson29

11-21-2009, 10:38 AM

since he did not have an "official business" tied to it, he could declare it as a "Hobby", and the laser is a tool for that hobby.

Hi Lee,

The point I was trying to make was declaring it at the time of writing the policy conditions and not when trying to make a claim. I actually have an S-Corporation, Business License, State Sales Tax number etc, but because it runs from my garage and I have no customers visiting, the insurance agent said they would regard it as a hobby business in the conditions.

James & Zelma Litzmann

11-22-2009, 11:53 AM

Dean, all I can say is I am so very sorry this happened, we will keep you and your situtation in our thoughts & prayers. Hope something goods turns up.

Mark Ross

11-22-2009, 6:58 PM

We cut all the nasty plastic stuff every normal business day, and the only way we can is to have someone somewhat close "just in case" but we have the air assist and crank that bad boy up...

If someone forgets to do that, we'll flame up on the next piece of acrylic mirror we cut.

As long as the air is blowing, it seems to blow out what might start up when we are cutting. Not sure if you had the air assist or not. It does make a slightly blurred edge where the laser is cutting the acrylic and we push the molten plastics down onto the grid, but it does a good job at flame suppresion...

On plastics...

I can take a piece of sappy pine and still light it up.

If nothing else, maybe you could part the unit out, if the control board is good? The power supply and the laser?

How old is your laser? How many watts? We are about due for a laser recharge again...let me know. Thanks. Again, sorry for your loss.

Dean Strickland

11-22-2009, 9:34 PM

Thank you all for some good advice and your compassion.
I will make every effort with the insurance company, although it does not look very promising.
As far as rebuilding the machine, I have given that a thought.
I will have to take a good hard look at it tomorrow and see if anything looks salvageable. if not for a rebuild, maybe someone can use parts.
I have received a response from Epilog that also states maybe it can be saved, but doubtful after seeing the pictures.
But hey, it's worth a look since I still have so much into it and so much more to pay off.
And to try to answer some of the questions, yes, I was using air assist. I have used nitrogen as an air assist, (I work at Airgas so it is a nice cheap alternative I wanted to try) but it did not have any effect on the flare ups.
The exhaust moves too much air for Nitrogen or CO2 to have any effect on that.
It was clear acrylic, .125 thick using 30 speed 100 power and 5000 frequency.
Yes, it burns and burns quickly.
I will be back. It may take a couple of years to achieve, but I will be back.
If this post saves even one of you this heartache, then it has served some purpose and some good has come of it anyway.

Richard Rumancik

11-23-2009, 10:20 AM

You said you did not have business insurance as you were in the early stages. Effectively you were doing it as a hobby (no sales, no bank account etc) with the idea of turning it into a business if it looked promising. I don't think it would be any different from someone starting a woodworking hobby in their garage and later turning it into a business. In the meantime, it would seem all the assets are personal assets and should normally be covered under a personal insurance policy.

There may be some kind of ombudsman or insurance association in your area to which you can make an appeal if you do not have success with the insurance company. I would keep the dialog open with the insurance company, just make them aware that you are looking at other options. Hopefully that may help bring them to the table to negotiate.

Ryan O'Hara

01-07-2010, 9:38 PM

So after reading this thread it makes me want to design a "Smartguard" system for my epilog. Any thoughts on the smoke/fire detection that is used in the GCC system. Otherwise, I have a ton of uController and electronic design to put something like this together.

Joe Pelonio

01-07-2010, 11:12 PM

Many of us have had small fires or scary flareups and already learned that lesson, just not nearly as hard a lesson is yours.

Regardless of whether one has a business, hobby, or just inherits or wins something, when a valuable item is acquired, there are so many things that can happen it's well worthy talking to your insurance agent about it as soon as possible.

I was paying about $300 a year for business insurance in a rented commercial space for years, then after 9/11 it went to over $1,400.
If your machine was a hobby tool, you might have gotten a far more reasonable price just to cover it for damage or theft, rather than the million $ liability that I had to carry to get installation jobs, but one way or another you would have found a way to get protection.

All that said, Dean, from what they told you, if that fire had destroyed your home, would that claim have been denied because the cause was a business machine? I find that hard to believe and agree with the others, you need to pursue this further and be persistent. There are many other hobby tools that could overheat and cause a fire that would be business tools to a contractor but hobby or even homeowner tools to others. There are many laser owners who are not using them for business but just for hobbies and crafts, so without proof of you conducting business I would
expect them to pay.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Amanda Shughart

02-12-2010, 9:06 AM

Dean,

I hope that all is not lost, your insurance issues does sound a bit off.

Perhaps your misfortune will help prevent somebody else's.

Your photos were so dramatic that I decided to make them a teachable moment. This poster is now up next to both of our lasers:

Dean, with your permission I would also like to use the information in this thread (Other's Experiences) as well as you pictures to make informational posters and possibly a slide presentation or something for new users/trainees here(if we ever get any).

We're still new at it so I have not gotten to a point where I felt comfortable leaving the machine run, not to mention a trip to the bathroom here takes longer than normal being that they are halfway across the building. (Big industrial building) And now I will no longer feel akward when I have to sit there while its burning, especially with these pictures to validate my point.

Dan Hintz

02-12-2010, 12:38 PM

I'm going to deny you permission, Amanda, as you never come back to share with us what you've accomplished lately ;-) I want to see more of those plates like you had at the last meet.

Amanda Shughart

02-12-2010, 12:47 PM

Too late Dan, I've already started working on it. And as far as those plates go, thats the only one I've done and its gone and out the door. Have a few crappy pics but not sure where they are right at this moment. They are poor quality though. Maybe someday I will get the chance to play again.

Havn't touched our laser in 6 months. Its a very expensive shelf right now. Just re-engaged the search for a permanant home for it here and decent contribution to production.

Allan Wright

03-05-2010, 12:36 PM

James Stokes

03-09-2010, 8:11 PM

I tried to get insurance on my 2 lasers. They wanted about $900 a month.

Rich Fleming

03-13-2010, 2:59 PM

Those pics are the one thing that scares me the most running my little 40w laser at home "In the basement at that"

I do keep a fire extinguisher very close and I have it hooked up with a e-stop for the power to the inverter.. Plus I never leave it.. I'm just to paranoid

Christian Weiss

03-14-2010, 12:26 PM

Dean,

Can you give me a call at 440-221-9973? I would like to offer to buy your machine as is. or email me at entrepreneuroh@aol.com

Thanks

Chris

Dean Strickland

03-25-2010, 10:09 PM

I hereby permit all Creekers to use the above pics as warnings or safety advisories. But not for monetaty gain.
Donations to my cause are always welcome. :D
I lost out on the insurance coverage. It doesn't look like I will have another laser for at least 2 years, as that is what I still have left to pay on it.
I have a copy fo my insurance policy and the paragraph that they stand strong on states under coverage of personal property;
"$1200 on property used ot intended for use in any business while on the insured premisis. This does not include electronic data processing equipment or the recording or storage software used with such equipment."

Lesson learned and lesson being passed on.

Kevin Groenke

03-25-2010, 10:29 PM

Deep sympathies on the insurance claim. A good reminder to read all the fine print.

I know that Iowa State Design School lost a Trotec to fire back in December.

We had a trash can fire last month (ignition source unknown - 3 hours after we closed) would have been catastrophic w/o sprinklers. As it was it was inches of h2o to clean up, fortunately much of the gear and equipment is on bases and skids.

FIRE BAD!!

James Stokes

04-12-2010, 9:09 PM

Insurance companies are such a rip off, They will do anything they can to keep from paying a claim.

One thing I do if cutting something real flammable is pull the front off of my laser and put a fan in front and really get some air blowing through. On my large laser I have a two inch suction hose hooked up to the lens and always use an auxiliary fan blowing across the material. Doing it like that I very seldom use the air assist.

Nancy Laird

07-03-2010, 1:05 PM

Yes, it does... illegally, but you're running a business. The fact that you have not established a DBA means you're most likely not paying business taxes, either. The state/federal government does not look kindly on this.

Just because you're laying low does not mean you're not a business.

You're not officially recognized as a business by the state, but as I said above, if you accepted money, the state considers your activity business-like and what's their piece of the pie. Same consequences.

States do not recognize "hobby" as a status... if you accept money for products and/or services, you're a business, and they want to regulate/tax it.

Dan, unless you are either an attorney or a tax specialist working for the state(s), you should be careful about your blanket statements. You don't and can't know what happens in any other state but your own, and your statement "Yes, it does... illegally, but you're running a business" is a legal statement and you have given legal advice---and you have just committed a felony of practicing law without a license which, in most states, will get you a heavy fine and perhaps incarceration.

On the insurance question, our laser shop, with its two lasers and three computers and other equipment adding up to about $50K, and hubby's wood workshop with its $50K or more worth of tools and equipment, were not covered under our homeowner's insurance, as we found out when I tried to add a rider to the HO policy. We now carry a business policy through an arm of our HO carrier, and it's costing us about $1800 a year and covers everything. It even has a liability provision in case someone comes over to visit and gets hurt in the shop. It's worth the peace of mind that we have.

As for fire, the only thing I've ever cut that has actually caught on fire in the machine is paper-backed wood veneer, and it was set to cut too slowly. The PSA veneer is about the slowest thing we cut, at about .4, and I've never even had a flame from that. I can't imagine what you were cutting that would have caught fire and burned that quickly.

And....all the more reason to have a potty room VERY nearby.

Dean, I do hope that your insurance company takes a second look at your coverage.

Nancy Laird

07-03-2010, 3:07 PM

I know.
And how many times have I read that on here and how many of these snowflakes have I cut before?
Same material same setting, same everything, only thiis time I left for a few short minutes.
Never a problem while I am sitting here. But that is exactly why you stay here, because then it will be uneventful.
Still kicking myself

Dean, in re-reading this post, I have come to the conclusion that something else happened rather than your material bursting into flame--unless it WAS a different type of acrylic than what you have cut before. Had you ordered new acrylic in the interval since the last time you cut and might have gotten a different type or from a different company?

Something happened out of the ordinary, either your machine had some sort of glitch that caused it, or the acrylic you were using was different than previous times.

Dan Hintz

07-04-2010, 1:03 PM

Dan, unless you are either an attorney or a tax specialist working for the state(s), you should be careful about your blanket statements. You don't and can't know what happens in any other state but your own...
Fair enough. All locales I've lived in (unfortunately too many for my taste, time to stop moving) required you to at least have a license of one form or another if you wished to sell manufactured items of any kind or items purchased with the express purpose of resale (notice this excludes resale of items purchased for personal use, ala eBay, Craig's list, etc.). You may not end up paying any taxes at the end of the year if you're taking a loss, but they always wanted acknowledgement you existed. People fly under the radar all of the time, but it eventually bites them in the rear.

The point I was trying to make (and I clarified earlier that my statements were more about paying taxes on sales rather than the business licenses, per se, though I'm not going to reread the entire thread just to verify this) is taxes must be paid on all non-personal sales, regardless of dollar amount per year or even if you've taken a loss. Those taxes are supposed to be paid on your year-end local, state, and federal taxes, but somehow people continue to mistakenly believe if they sell on eBay, Craig's list, etc. or they paid taxes on it when they originally purchased the items years ago, they don't need to do so again.

...and your statement "Yes, it does... illegally, but you're running a business" is a legal statement and you have given legal advice---and you have just committed a felony of practicing law without a license which, in most states, will get you a heavy fine and perhaps incarceration.
I guess you fail to see the irony in this statement as you're telling me what's legal/illegal without you yourself being a lawyer? I'm posting on a forum centered on use of manufacturing systems, I have accepted no money for my "advice", nor have I hung a shingle out listing myself as an attorney at law. My "advice" is worth what you paid for it. Committing a felony for offering what would legally be construed as an opinion? Any other day I'd let that slide, but I'm tired from an early morning July 4th parade, so I'll offer yet another opinion... you should consider getting over it.

Nancy Laird

07-04-2010, 7:08 PM

"you're telling me what's legal/illegal without you yourself being a lawyer? "

No, I'm telling you what's legal/illegal, as I am and have been a highly trained and educated paralegal for over 27 years.

Robert Walters

08-12-2010, 2:44 PM

Dean,

My condolences, through your loss *I* have certainly learned my lesson to NEVER EVER walk away while the laser is in operation.

While it may not have helped your situation...
I find it weird that the "no regulation, cheap imported" laser engravers all have EMERGENCY STOP buttons (what I like to call 'The Big Red Button') and even key lock power switch, yet none of the US domestic well branded ones do.

All,

For those that may not be aware, here's a little Fire 101...
Note: I am NOT an expert, just sharing what I was taught. Do your research, I am human and can make mistakes.

In the United States, there are basically four types (Classes) of fires:
Class A: wood, paper, sawdust, etc (WHITE smoke).
Class B: Petroleum based, gas, fuel, plastics, rubber (BLACK smoke).
Class C: Electrical Fire, Once you've removed the electricity they usually revert back to one of the other classes of fires.
Class D: Explosives, Specialize Materials (like magnesium), Oxidizers, some household stove top grease fires.

In a laser engraver we can have Class A, B, and/or C fires based on the materials being used at the time.

NEVER fight a Class C fire without SAFELY removing *ALL* the sources of electricity, as any sparks could reignite the fire. Usually this is at the circuit breaker(s), or with a non-conductive pole (wooden broom handle?) to pull the plug(s) from the wall.

There are multiple types and sizes of fire extinguishers each having it's pros and cons depending on the scenario.

The most common are Dry chemical powder (Class A,B,C) that you can find at any hardware or discount stores. The chemical in these is corrosive and will typically damage whatever it comes into contact with unless you can quickly clean it up.

One alternative is CO2 Fire Extinguisher (Class B,C). One benefit of them is that they don't leave any residue to clean up other than water vapor that has condensed. You do have to be careful when operating a CO2 fire extinguisher as when they are being used can leak through openings and cause thermal burns on your skin, best to use with proper gloves.

Another very expensive alternative is Halon (which is being banned internationally) or it's substitutes like Haltron. These are typically used today for aircraft, marine, or specialized use.

If you are looking for something "more" than the hardware store fire extinguisher and don't want to hit a specialized company, check out http://westmarine.com/ or any other boating supply.

They even have a manual/automated fire suppression system:
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=96201&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=10107&subdeptNum=10562&classNum=10564

Be sure to inspect your fire extinguishers at least one a year.

PLEASE do your research BEFORE taking any actions. While I have the best of intentions, each persons environment/situation is different and may have different needs.

References:
http://www.fire-extinguisher101.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_triangle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher

Thad Nickoley

08-26-2010, 7:11 PM

Just a side note,

I lost my Epilog and the whole garage a couple of years ago. No, it wasnt the laser. The fire inspector traced it down to a cheap remote control battery that we were charging over night, like we had done 100 times before. Took out the whole garage plus about 100K in tools.

The fire inspector said that these cheap chargers catch fire all the time. I never leave any kind of charger plugged in over night any more.

Tom Weiser

09-08-2010, 1:30 PM

Very sorry about your loss. I have done the very same thing for 12 years and have been lucky I haven't had any problems.
As for the insurance - what I found one time when I had a problem is if it's in a garage and used to maintain the house / property it's covered by home owners insurance. If it's not used to maintain the property like snowmobile / motorcycle it's not covered. I know there are what I'd call some gray areas when it comes to tools but I don't think you could convinence them that a Laser Engraver is used to maintain the house.

TONG LI

09-13-2010, 5:04 AM

Dean, sorry to see that. I have a proposal for you. Since we are trying to see if our AP Lazer machine can be marketed in engraving business, I would love to offer you a discount to try our laser machine.

Sorry, I didn't know that the link is not allowed.

Tong

Clarence Miller

09-21-2010, 7:45 PM

I hate to see this kind of thing happen. I have been thinking of purchasing an laser to go with my CNC router. When I have long winded programs I have a history of leaving it run while I do other jobs in the shop. Perhaps I need to reconsider. I carry business insurance on the shop despite it's negative cash flow (it is on it's own property ), although I have no doubt that since that warning is in the manual that insurance would hold me liable anyway.
Again Dude, you have my sympathy.

Mark Ross

12-08-2010, 4:53 PM

Ahh...tis the season...

(to the tune 'The Christmas Song' ((you know...merry christmas to you...))

The laser has started a nice open fire
Lifting the lid, the flames hit my nose
Expletives being slung by crew
Someone go grab the firehose!

And everybody knows, some plastic and some balsa wood
helps to fuel the fire so bright
The boss, about to have a coronary
Will find it hard to sleep tonight.

The fire department is on the way
They'll overuse their axes come what may
And every worker will do their best to try
to come up with a way to deny

And so I'm offering this simple advice
To keep you from ending up wearing brown stain pants
Follow all recommendations and learn the meaning of
ROUTINE MAINTENANCE!

(end of song)

Yes boys and girls, our Epilog 36EXT caught fire today. Vacuum out the work area you say? Pshaw...wut fer?

Luckily, the fire extinguisher is right at the side of the unit and we keep people working closely nearby. Damage was limited to having to clean out all the dang powder from the extinguiher, order a new honeycomb grid and go to the proctologist who called the podiatrist and between them, they removed my foot from the hindquarters of the one who did not perform routine maintenance...grrr...

Let this be a reminder, never leave your unit unattended. In notime, it can go from some stinky smoke to a very expensive repair bill!

:)