Powermatic Drum Sander Electrical Supply

["Patrick G Rainsberger"]

I'm thinking of buying the P/M 25" drum sander DDS 225, but I'm not sure
what the power requirements will be. It has a 5hp, 1PH, 230V. Taiwan
motor on it. I called the Powermatic Tech. line and was told that it draws
28 amps at 230 and requires a 50 amp breaker. I called back to find out
if this was peak amps or continuous amps, and I got someone else, he told me it pulls 17 continuous amps and requires a 40 amp breaker. I asked whether I could put it on a 30 amp breaker. He said when you start up and it hits the peak amps, it would mess up my relay switch. I have a 3hp Oneida high vacuum dust collector that draws 14 amps at 230V. I've
measure the peak amps at over 80! They only recommend I use a dedicated NEMA 6020R electrical receptacle. Can anybody out there sort this out for me?

Thanks,
Pat

[Carroll Courtney]

Welcome to the Creek Pat.Your sander being the size it is 5hp then it has a starter w/OLs.If it was me I would run #8 wire on a 40amp breaker,the starter will protect the sander if any overloading should occur.I guess you know the difference between peak and continous which is what you base the load on.If I'm not mistaking its RLA(continous) x 125%.If you don't fine a good answer you can google it and tomorrow I will ask the electrican.----Carroll

["Patrick G Rainsberger"]

Carroll,
Thanks for welcoming me. I've been a lurker to this site for at least 3 yrs. I've learned a great deal from all of you at the Creek. I've been building my shop for about 4 years and have used the Creek for every purchase and plan that has gone into it. The buying of a drum sander is out of frustration in making a simple cutting board, end grain hard maple and running it through my P/M 15" helical cutterhead planer and having to belt sand out the parrallel pattern the planer left on the cutting board, leaving dips, valleys and scratches from the belt. By the time I was through, the cutting board went from 1 1/4" to 1" thick. Right now, Tools Plus has the P/M on sale for $2555.00 delivered. I can't pass this up. Problem is I only have a 100 amp service to my shop. Thanks for your concern.
Pat

[Rick Fisher]

Hi Patrick.

That motor will run fine on a 40 amp breaker.. A good rule of thumb is to add 20% to the full load amps and round up..

I have a 5hp Tablesaw which draws 25amps, FLA and it runs on a 40 amp breaker.. I have also run it on a 30 amp breaker with no problem, but had a 40 wired in for it.

I also run a 5hp Bandsaw, which draws 23 amps FLA on a 30 amp breaker, and a 5hp planer which draws 25 amps, which is also running on a 30 amp breaker..

I have never snapped a breaker on any of these tools.


That Powermatic is a well regarded drum sander.. I have the 3hp Double drum from General, it gets a lot of use for a hobby machine..

I found that there is a real knack you get for running a double drum with success.. I burned my fair share of paper, but havent burned any in some time..

When you get it, dont get frustrated .. plan an hour of fiddling and learning.. For hobby guys, they are a huge asset .. worth the time it takes to figure them out.

[Joe Jensen]

I am running my 5HP PM225 dual drum sander on a 30 amp breaker. It has not tripped yet. (I planned to rewire to a larger wire and breaker if the 30 amp breaker ever tripped) Same with my 5HP Sawstop. Never tripped the 30amp breaker.

[Jeff Duncan]

I don't think it's ever a bad idea to go a little bigger when doing electrical, having said that #8 wire is a bit on the overkill side. My Powermatic DD is now in it's second home. I had it wired with 12 gauge on a 30 amp breaker in it's 1st location, and it's now wired with 12 gauge on 30 amp fuses, and I've never blown a fuse or tripped a breaker. There are only 2 machines in my shop on 10 gauge wire, my 7-1/2 hp cyclone and my 9 hp planer.
I can't tell you how many amps it will draw, or calculate any of the mathematical formulas for voltage drop etc etc.... but I've thrown an awful lot of stock through it and have unintentionally bogged that motor down on several occasions. Having used it professionally for 5 years now, I feel pretty comfortable with how it's wired up.

good luck,
JeffD

["Patrick G Rainsberger"]

Thank you all for your input. I'm thinking of taking the shortest route. Since I have 12 gauge wire supplying all of my receptacles throughout my shop, I think I'll go with the 30 Amp breaker until it trips. At that point I'll consider a rewire job. Now all I have to do is figure how I'll get this 730# monster of of my truck and into my shop.
Pat

[Leo Graywacz]

I don't think it's ever a bad idea to go a little bigger when doing electrical, having said that #8 wire is a bit on the overkill side. My Powermatic DD is now in it's second home. I had it wired with 12 gauge on a 30 amp breaker in it's 1st location, and it's now wired with 12 gauge on 30 amp fuses, and I've never blown a fuse or tripped a breaker. There are only 2 machines in my shop on 10 gauge wire, my 7-1/2 hp cyclone and my 9 hp planer.
I can't tell you how many amps it will draw, or calculate any of the mathematical formulas for voltage drop etc etc.... but I've thrown an awful lot of stock through it and have unintentionally bogged that motor down on several occasions. Having used it professionally for 5 years now, I feel pretty comfortable with how it's wired up.

good luck,
JeffD

12 ga wire is rated for 20 amps. You will melt the wire before you blow the breaker. You should down size the breaker before something bad happens.

[Rick Fisher]

12 ga wire is rated for 20 amps. You will melt the wire before you blow the breaker. You should down size the breaker before something bad happens.

+1

That machine needs 10 ga wire..

[Chris Barnett]

Here are a few references for match load and current to wire size. Run a 5 hp motor for very long on #12, and you might have a serious problem. I would ask for first option on a fire damaged sander but you live too far away to make it worthwhile

http://www.cerrowire.com/default.aspx?id=46

http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html

[Mitchell Andrus]

Here are a few references for match load and current to wire size. Run a 5 hp motor for very long on #12, and you might have a serious problem. I would ask for first option on a fire damaged sander but you live too far away to make it worthwhile

http://www.cerrowire.com/default.aspx?id=46

http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html



Using the calculator on csgnetwork site, you get 14ga wire for a 240, 1 phase, 30 amp circuit, 40 ft.

Not 12 or 10???

As I understand it, the type of wire (insulation type and wire type... solid or multi-strand) has some bearing on the gauge required. Yes?
.
.

[Jeff Duncan]

I think maybe some of you guys are mistakingly using 110v capacities instead of 220v ? I just double checked that calculator also and it gave me 14 gauge for my sander, so not sure where you guys ended up with 10 gauge??? Only explanation I can think of is that you were thinking it's 110v, which of course would be silly with a 5hp sander, but I can't see how else you got 10 gauge?
Just to re-iterate I've run my sander for hours at a time and haven't melted anything, haven't gotten the wiring too warm to touch, haven't set anything on fire etc. 12 gauge is plenty adequate for a 5 hp motor.
But hey if you want to spend a bunch of extra cash on 10 gauge in your shops....I won't stop you;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Mitchell Andrus]

I think maybe some of you guys are mistakingly using 110v capacities instead of 220v ? I just double checked that calculator also and it gave me 14 gauge for my sander, so not sure where you guys ended up with 10 gauge??? Only explanation I can think of is that you were thinking it's 110v, which of course would be silly with a 5hp sander, but I can't see how else you got 10 gauge?
Just to re-iterate I've run my sander for hours at a time and haven't melted anything, haven't gotten the wiring too warm to touch, haven't set anything on fire etc. 12 gauge is plenty adequate for a 5 hp motor.
But hey if you want to spend a bunch of extra cash on 10 gauge in your shops....I won't stop you;)

good luck,
JeffD

I've also run the same sander on 30A breaker, 12ga. The wire doesn't get even slightly warm after running for 20 mins. or more.

Of course, it's the short/slow burn at <breaker amps that you need to protect for.
.

[Leo Graywacz]

The circuit breaker is not to portect the machine, it is to protect the wire. 12ga can handle 20 amps. Doesn't matter at what voltage. By putting a 30amp breaker on the system you are violating electrical codes and endangering yourself. If for some reason you have an electrical fire and they find this breaker on 12ga wire your insurance won't pay out.

[Mitchell Andrus]

The circuit breaker is not to portect the machine, it is to protect the wire. 12ga can handle 20 amps. Doesn't matter at what voltage. By putting a 30amp breaker on the system you are violating electrical codes and endangering yourself. If for some reason you have an electrical fire and they find this breaker on 12ga wire your insurance won't pay out.

Yes, it does matter what the voltage is because we're not talking about a single wire and a neutral wire. We're talking about a 3 wire, 240V circuit. Hot, Hot, Neutral.

30 amp circuit on a 120 volt, 2 conductor circuit equals 30 amps PER LEG.

30 amp circuit on a 240 volt, 3 conductor circuit equals 15 amps PER LEG. That's well within the capacity of a 12ga wire.

Black = 15 amps.
Red = 15 amps.
Neutral = nul.
Total = 30 amps.

Each hot wire does half of the work. AC allows this and it's one of the reasons why AC can be transmitted many miles on a wire the size of your thumb.

Each 12 ga. 'hot' wire carries half of the circuit's 30 amps. in a 240V, 3 conductor circuit. No?



The way you get 240 volts is by using 2 hot legs (120 volts each) that are out of phase from each other by 180 degrees. No neutral needed.
Basically it all starts at the power company transformer.
The transformer is 'tapped' along a coil at 3 different locations along the coil.
The electrical current dose not hit the transformer coil all at once.
It starts off at 0 volts and then (over time) it increases to 120 volts, goes back to zero, then goes to 120 volts (opposite polarity), then cycles back to zero volts.
This is why they call it AC - alternating current, and it all happens 60 cycle per second.
The first tap is at one end of the transformer, it is considered a hot leg.
The second tap is in the middle of the transformer, and it is the neutral, and is referred to as the grounded conductor. It is grounded at every transformer (by the power company), and it is also grounded at your meter/electrical service.
The third tap is at the far end of the transformer coil. It is considered a hot leg.
These two hot legs are always out of phase from each other by 180 degrees. That is to say that they are exactly the opposite of each other. When the first hot leg is peaking at +120 volts, the second hot leg is peaking at -120 volts.
The potential difference (voltage) between the two hot legs is
positive 120 volts and negative 120 volts ---- 240 volts.
So you get 240 volts by using the two hot legs only - no neutral needed.
You get 120 volts by using a hot leg for one wire, and the second wire is the grounded conductor (also called the neutral or in my example - center tap).
.

[Leo Graywacz]

You don't need to lecture me in electricity. I deal with three phase all the time.

If you have a 5hp motor drawing 30 amps on a 220 volt circuit it draws 30 amps( max). Not 15 per leg. You only have a neutral leg when you are running 2 115 volt circuits. 12 ga is rated for 20 amp at any voltage within its rating. You can run 120, 208, 220, 230, 240 or 460 on the same wire and it still would have an current rating of 20 amps requiring a 20 amp breaker.

[Mitchell Andrus]

The DDS in question is single phase.

No lecture intended. Just cut/pasted from a source I trusted.

So are these answers also wrong, or as they say, the answer 'depends'?

"Breaker to wire size is not always black and white. Such as #10 on a 30 amp breaker.
Breaker sizes for motors, welders and A/C units follow different rules than other branch circuits. So to say #12 on a 30 amp breaker is wrong, is, well, wrong.

If the circuit is dedicated to the pump motor it very well may be legal for #12 to be on a 30 amp breaker.
A single phase motor on a dedicated branch circuit can have an ovecurrent device rated at 300% of full load current, yet the branch circuit conductors must be rated for the full load current at 125%. Current is valued by Tables in the code book according to motor type."

"Based on Table 310.16, 12AWG CU is allowed for 30 amps if it's Type TBS, SA, SIS, FEP, FEPB, MI, RHH, RHW-2, THHN, THHW, THW-2, THWN-2, USE-2, XHH, XHHW, XHHW-2, or ZW-2"

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/30-amp-breaker-wire-size-8711/

We're all here to learn something new and to have information corrected as we go along.

I was present when my MIL's AC unit was inspected. The installer used a 30 amp breaker. The inspector requested a 25 instead. He didn't even look at the wiring, just the plate on the unit.
.

[Leo Graywacz]

That's news to me.

[guy knight]

mine is on a 50 amp

[Rick Fisher]

It is my understanding that there is two different ratings for electrical wire.. One is for loose wire.. I think they call it "chassis wiring" .. where the wire is independant and not tight against another wire.

The maximum amperage drops when the wire is 3 wires inside one jacket..

I discussed this with my electrician when I wired my shop.. he said "motor wiring" did not mean running tablesaws from the panel.

Anyway.. he told me at the time that I needed #10 wire for anything over 20 amps..

In the case of this sander.. It could idle at something like 15 amps.. Its unlikely that you would often run the motor up to 28 amps..

I know that in my area, 12 ga. wire technically maxes out at 23 amps, but since there is no such thing as a 23 amp breaker.. 20 amps is the max..

There are a bazillion different applications and uses, probably lots of right answers..

AZ engineer is an Electrical Engineer.. He could probably explain the whole thing..

[Chip Lindley]

We are not cost-conscious contractors squeezing every penny out of *codes and materials*. "Just getting by" with small gauge wire is fine until....something happens! (I hope none of you bought cheap old fuse boxes and put pennies in them!) All evidence indicates 12ga wire may be pushed to the limit for a heavy 5hp load. But....its YOUR shop!

In my ignorant youth I ran a Lincoln 225A box welder on an extension made of 12ga Romex. (the machine has a 50A plug!) Nothing happened, but I never welded *big stuff* either....

["Patrick G Rainsberger"]

This has been one confusing discussion among fellow Creekers. Let me see if
I’m getting this right. According to the wire size calculator supplied by Chris: If I’m Running a 5hp motor that uses 17A at 240V, this equal a “total circuit amperage” of 34A. (Both hot wires added together) If the total length of the run is 40 feet, than the total circuit length is 80 feet, (both hot wires added together to make the circuit) so “one half of the total circuit length” is 40 feet. The “Circuit Phase” being single, I get a “Required minimum wire size” of #12 --- Correct me if I’m wrong, I'm assuming that when you run a large motor you are able to run a smaller wire a longer distance when you split the current needed for the motor into two hot legs carrying ½ the current each. Example: Baseboard heat on 240V = smaller wire than on 120V. The part of this that concerns me is the amperage that is being used when the machine starts up, and when the machine is being used to its maximum capability. Does it damage any part of the electronics of the sander when it goes past the rating of the wire and-or the breaker? Pat

[mreza Salav]

That link doesn't give you correct information (try 50amp and you get still #14).

30 amp requires at least 10 gauge wire, 12 is for 20 amp max, period!

These are minimum required by code. You may live without but you are risking causing a fire.

You might be better off consult a professional electrician.

["Patrick G Rainsberger"]

Mreza

Isn't 50A at 240 equal to 100 Total Circuit Amps. When I calculate this
I get a #8 wire. Am I using this calculator wrong?
Pat

[mreza Salav]

Mreza

Isn't 50A at 240 equal to 100 Total Circuit Amps. When I calculate this
I get a #8 wire. Am I using this calculator wrong?
Pat

The best thing is to either get a book of electrical code of your state/province or consult with a professional electrician (you can either call the city and talk to an inspector). Different states might have different codes, but from I understand here are the typical max amps on cables:

#14 15amps
#12 20
#10 40
#8 55

see the table here: http://www.grnet.com/therhinosuite/y2kandgenerato/wiresize.htm

[Leo Graywacz]

No, 50 amps at 240 v is 50 a at 240 volts

[Rick Fisher]

I was of the impression that #10 wire capped out at 33 amps..
#8 wire was for 40 amps.

Voltage isnt relevant until it exceeds the wires rated voltage..

I have phase converter running my Jointer.. The jointer draws 220V x 3phase, 11.5 amps.. which is rated at 4hp.. The single phase conncection uses #10 wire.. amperage draw could be 22 - 24 amps.. The wire from the converter to the Jointer is only #14ga 4 wire..

Same overall power.. 2 different wires based on amperage...

One of the big advantages of 575 Volt power is really low amperage, cheaper wiring.. I dont have it, but see it a lot at Factory auctions .. Great big machines running on spindly little wires..

[Dick Strauss]

NM-B copper is rated for the following at 60C according to the chart linked below:
14g...15a
12g...20A
10g...30A
8g....40A
6g....55A

http://www.cerrowire.com/default.aspx?id=46

[Tom Veatch]

Mreza

Isn't 50A at 240 equal to 100 Total Circuit Amps.

No! No! No!!!!

50A at 240v = 50A just like 50A at 120v = 50A just like 50A at 12v or 50A at "whatever" volts is 50A. You have 2 wires in both 240 and 120 volt single phase service. Both wires carry the same amperage in either case. The only difference is that in 120v, one of the wires is at ground potential. In 240v circuit both wires differ from ground by 120v. The current does not add in a 240v circuit any more than it adds in a 120v circuit. At any given instance of time, in either a 120v or 240v single phase circuit, current is flowing to the motor through one wire and from the motor in the other wire. It is the same current in both wires.

A 5 HP motor with 17 FLA rating will run fine on a 30 amp circuit. Minimum wire size is 10ga. If the wire run is excessively long, you may need heavier gauge wire to keep the voltage drop to acceptable levels. There is absolutely no need to go to a 40 or 50 amp circuit for a 17 amp motor. And yes, I know the startup surge is much more than 17 amps, even considerably more that 30 amps. I repeat, there is absolutely no need to go more than a 30 amp circuit for a 17 amp FLA motor.

[Rick Fisher]

Tom, the OP says the motor is 28 amps..

[Dick Strauss]

It sounds like the OP got different info from PM that probably translates to 17A FLA/28A peak. If so, as Tom V said 30A circuit w/10g copper should be okay, right?

["Patrick G Rainsberger"]

"I called the Powermatic Tech. line and was told that it draws
28 amps at 230 and requires a 50 amp breaker. I called back to find out
if this was peak amps or continuous amps, and I got someone else, he told me it pulls 17 continuous amps and requires a 40 amp breaker."

Dick,

I don't know how to use all the tools for the Creek. Above is my quote on the original post.

The second tech told me that the first tech was wrong and wanted to know his name. Since then I've talked to an electrician and he told me I need a #10 wire and at least a 30 amp breaker. He said that the startup for a motor that size w/o a separate starter draws too much for a #12 wire.

Pat

[Rob Damon]

My take on it:

I have a:

-5 hp Dual-Drum sander (PM DDS225)
-5 hp 18" Delta RAS, 240V/1ph
-5 hp 20" planer (PM209), 240V/1ph
-5 hp 15" planer/molder (PM15), 240V/1ph
-5 hp 18" Bandsaw (PM1800), 240V/1ph
-5 hp Shaper (PM2700), 240V/1ph
-5 hp cyclone (Jet), 240V/1ph

They all start and run fine on #10, 30A/2P circuit breakers (L6-30R), because running load is roughly 17/18 amps for each.

Circuit breakers are designed to handle short time (first cycle(s) peak currents from motor starts. Some older breakers may have inrush problems, thus you can upsize the circuit breaker to accommodate inrush currents if you encounter niusance tripping (by code). Size the wire for 125% and use the next higher standard breaker size as a basis.

The wire doesn't care about a few cycles of inrush current, even at lock rotor, which is 6 times running current. (Which is why you size wires for fire pumps at 125%, but overcurrent protection at 6 times running current. You want the fire pump never to shut off once it starts. You want it to run until it destroy itself, unlike woodworking tools, where you want the overcurrent protection to trip before you have motor damage. The closer the Overcurrent is sized to the actual load, the better protection you have in place to protect the motor from damage.)
The #10 will only see the higher inrush for such a short time, so there won't be any heating issues, and it can handle 17amps all day long (continuous duty.)

Pm is probably recommending a 40amp, because it knows the starter overloads are going to trip to protect the motor and the higher breaker size will all but eliminate niusance tripping that has most likely occured in the past with past customers.

I have a new panel with new breakers 1-1/2 years old, so I haven't had any tripping issues.

Rob