Help me fight my mother-in-law's HOA...

[Eric Larsen]

Here's the deal:

My mother in law lives in an HOA-ruled CCR community in Las Vegas. She has a new hobby -- keeping freakin' chickens in her back yard for the eggs. She's had four birds since April. She recently scored four more birds from friends who were ordered to cease and desist from their HOAs.

She is 100% in violation of the CCRs. But I have made the hens a habitat that is unobtrusive. They're out of sight, out of mind, and there really isn't any smell because any droppings dessicate immediately. They make that "awww awww awww" hen sound, but it's hard to hear unless right next to their habitat.

Of the 30 families in the HOA, 29 are OK with her chickens and one is not. There are a couple dog owners in the neighborhood that have miserable curs that bark continuously for 15 hours a day. That's OK, but eight hens are not.

They're having a meeting this week to discuss the chicken "issue."

My job is to argue on behalf of my mother in law. (Perry Mason, I am not.)

My plan of attack is to argue that while she is certainly violating the letter of the CCRs, she's not really violating the spirit -- her birds are less annoying than the neighborhood dogs.

I could come up with all manner of pets that are FAR WORSE than chickens -- beagles, cockatoos, howler monkeys, you name it.

Worst case scenario, I plan to use the "nuclear option." That is, "Deal with the birds, or I'm going to have to kill them. And if I'm forced to play Henry VIII, I'm going to buy my mother in law two beagles and a Moluccan cockatoo. And then you can all invest in earplugs and wish nostalgically for the days when my mother in law only had eight quiet chickens."

BTW -- Did you know that a Moluccan cockatoo scream is only five decibels less than a jet engine at takeoff? At 135 decibels, it's one of the noisiest things on earth, and perfectly acceptable according to the CCRs.

(Comparatively, The Who only managed 126 decibels to make the Guinness Book for "world's loudest rock band.")

PS -- Personally, I think it's ridiculous to keep chickens when eggs are a buck a dozen. But it makes her happy, and I've got to come up with a strategy.

[Neal Clayton]

honest solution: don't live in a place where 30 people would take time out of their day to go to a meeting about someone else's pets.

my personal definition of a homeowners association: a means for people who lack taste, substance, and planning/architecture knowledge to pretend that they don't.

[Charlie Schultz]

You might try to lobby for a change to the rule(s).

[Belinda Barfield]

Just a question. . . Do the city or county ordinances prohibit keeping poultry/livestock within their respective boundaries?

[Dennis Peacock]

All I have to say is that I'm really GLAD that I do not live in a HOA.!!!

I honestly wish you the best....as I have nothing I can offer.

[Jim King]

Dont talk bad about Howlers, Amos and Andy will feel bad, they think they are little people.

[Lee Schierer]

I think you will have an up hill fight, particularly if the local ordinances have zoning restrictions against livestock. Chickens are not normally considered pets. Pet stores don't usually sell them. They are considered farm animals or livestock. That many chickens will produce more eggs than she can eat, if she is selling them she may be in violation of operating a home business too.

I would get the signatures of the 29 people on a letter saying it is okay with them prior to the meeting. If you have than many in favor go after an amendment to the HOA rules or call for an election of officials and get a new HOA president who is on your side.

If you get the beagles pen them up and have a couple of rabbits or a cat to turn loose in the yard at 6:00 a.m. to get them going. :eek:

Or give the complaining neighbor free eggs....

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Have your mother-in-law move outside the HOA.

[Jason Roehl]

All I have to say is that I'm really GLAD that I do not live in a HOA.!!!

I honestly wish you the best....as I have nothing I can offer.

Same here. From what I hear, my neighborhood used to have a HOA, but it fizzled years ago. Most people here keep up with their properties, and there's not a lot of riff-raff or rentals, so I really don't have much to complain about. To top it off, we are on city water and sewer, but just outside city limits. With a high-dollar neighborhood right next to us in the same boat, we're not likely to be annexed, either (it would double our taxes and only add trash service, the rich folk would fight it).

When we went looking for a house, any houses in a HOA-governed neighborhood were automatically eliminated without a second thought.

[Belinda Barfield]

I live in a HOA governed condo complex, which is a real PIA! :D

[Mike Henderson]

Having lived in both a HOA complex and a non-HOA complex, I'll take the HOA complex any day. But that's not answering your question.

Since you have 29 out of 30 homes on your side, why not modify your HOA documents (called CC&Rs around here). But you could still run into county or city problems. Often the county or city has pretty strict limits on farm animals in non agricultural zoning areas.

And if you do amend the HOA documents, you'd probably want to limit the number of chickens someone can keep and specify no roosters because of the crowing.

The chicken situation is a common one around here. Most people just stay under the radar and their neighbors don't object. But once someone complains to the city or county, the chickens are gone.

Mike

[Eric Larsen]

Just a question. . . Do the city or county ordinances prohibit keeping poultry/livestock within their respective boundaries?

No -- defying all logic, it is perfectly legal to keep hens in Las Vegas residential areas. Roosters must be in agriculture-zoned areas.

[Rick Huelsbeck]

Don't know anything about HOA's never had to deal with them, seems if local zoning is ok with the Chickens local HOA can't really do a lot about them.

What I find strange is the ad at the botom of the page on how to build a chicken coup for $98 :D

[Kenneth Hertzog]

Like Lee said
maybe the complaining neighbor isn't getting enough eggs :-)

[Dan Friedrichs]

You've got 29/30 on your side and the city doesn't care? Get the rules changed.

Having been to many high-stress HOA meetings, I'd suggest being as polite and appologetic as possible. "She didn't realize they weren't allowed....they mean so much to her....just the honest mistake of an elderly woman who wants some companionship....", etc. And with 8 hens, how could she possibly be eating ~50 eggs a week?! Sounds like some neighbors could use some free-range non-cage eggs...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Don't know anything about HOA's never had to deal with them, seems if local zoning is ok with the Chickens local HOA can't really do a lot about them.

What I find strange is the ad at the botom of the page on how to build a chicken coup for $98 :D


Actually HOA can have a great control over what you can and can't do on "your" property.

When you buy a home in an area controlled by a HOA you sign a contract or an agreement to abide by the rules governing the HOA. Locally a HOA prevented a local home owner from painting the front door on their house a certain color because the other home owners found it offensive.

What is the problem? Don't buy a house in an area governed by a HOA or move out. It's not like you weren't aware of potential problems when you signed the agreement. Some folks seem to want the benefits of a HOA without the responsibilities that come with it.

When people fight this type of stuff, the lawyers are the only people who come out ahead.

[Carlos Alden]

I could not live with a HOA governing things like this. Things might get a little funky, but I don't mind a purple house with yellow trim.

I agree with the suggestions made that you want to lobby to amend the rules. I think you might have to limit the number of birds to 4, though, which is what our city ordinance is. Chickens do make noise and they can smell, and it offends some people. Not saying they're in the right, just saying.

I like your nuclear option. I think it's important to bring up the reasons why the ban is in place - obviously the noise and the smell - and then talk about the dogs as comparison. You may well be able to effect a change this way, through common sense.

Depending on your statesman skills you might want to contact the holdout complainer beforehand and see what their issue is specifically. You might have a chance to defuse their defiance this way, like by offering to cut down the number of birds you mil has.

Then after the meeting have a big fried chicken potluck!

Carlos

[Mark Patoka]

Sounds like your best bet is to try to change or amend the HOA rules, assuming that the county ordinances are OK. HOA rules are there for a reason and everyone signed on to them but there should be a procedure to change them and it sounds like you already have a majority vote in your favor.

Just remember that any change you make opens the door for others to now follow along so be careful how it's written and think about putting specific limits in as Carlos suggests.

[Heather Thompson]

Eric,

My husband and I live in a townhome and have a dreaded HOA, I have had a vegetable garden for five years, last spring they told me I had to pull my garden and plant grass. :mad: They also stated that grills were not allowed due to local fire ordinances and needed to be disposed of, quick call to city hall and the county and there are no such ordinances. :) There was the mandatory HOA meeting and I presented the info from city hall and county, grills stay. Then comes the vegetable garden issue, my neighbors were very vocal in support of my garden, when the harvest is good all benefit.
Another tactic you may consider is that your MIL is doing her part to fight industrial farming which has devistating affects on the envioronment, economy, consumers and other countries. Get a copy of the movie Food Inc and watch it, you will have a lot of ammunition to support that perspective. I have watched you discuss other sensitive points in other threads and I think that you will do well as her Perry Mason, please let us know the outcome.

Heather

[Belinda Barfield]

Eric,

I am surprised that the city allows chickens. One thing to consider, your mother-in-law could be looking at a lawsuit down the road. If one of her neighbors contracts histoplasmosis (no matter whether from her chickens, other birds, or bats) it could be hard to prove her chickens didn't cause the infection. I know that may sound extreme, but you never know.

[Jim Rimmer]

I mean this in good spirits and wish you well in whatever path you take...but the HOA rules that your MIL signed when she bought the property say no chickens. So, no chickens. Most HOAs are not open to rules modifications as it leads down the slippery slope; who wants to change what next.

Again, I don't mean this in a negative sense (and I dislike HOAs myself) but she knew the rules when she moved in.

Good luck to you in your case.

[Roger Jensen]

I agree (and I also don't mean this negatively). You can't pick and choose what rules you want to follow, and of course ignorance of one of the rules is not an excuse.

On a bleaker note, humane societies across america are being overwhelmed with chickens. Folks are deciding they don't like to raise them; plus chickens lay eggs for about two or three years but live over four years. In the old days the chicken would be butchered and eaten, but now they get dumped off at the humane society. I suspect more towns will be banning chickens...

Good luck - not sure how you can win this one.

Roger

[JohnMichael Schlim]

the CR&R's probably don't allow any pet that disturbs other unit owners. So that argument wont get very far. HOA's are bound by state laws. Google Nevada HOA Law and you will find some assistance. For example in Nevada a majority (at least 3) of the seats of the board must be unit owners. If you have 29 of 30 on your side then the majority of the board is already on your side and so at the meeting have an amendment made to the by laws. However A HOA is a legal entity that can fine, and even foreclose on your home. If your gonna fight then you should hire an attorney to represent you. HOA's do not play around they take their limited responsibility and authority VERY serious. Good luck!

[Horton Brasses]

We own a condo with a real PITA association and board. One person can make everything a living h***. At least in our case.

Generally there are a whole host of bylaws relating to changing the rules. In our association a certain number of people are required to support a motion to vote on a change in the bylaws. You need to read the rules, but you should be able to make a motion to change the bylaws and then hold a vote (two votes for this process). This is probably better than going nuclear which is not likely to make it any easier for your MIL and seems likely turn people against her. You may discover that all of those 29 people who are OK with the chickens don't really want them and just put up with it, particularly if they were put on the spot and didn't want to offend your MIL. When it comes down to actually changing the rules they may feel quite differently-or not in which case your job will be easy. She did move in willingly so it seems like changing the rules might be better than disobeying them or going nuclear.

We live in a newer development with a fairly loose covenant. Because we were the first house we never signed the covenant we are technically not bound. One of the rules is no chickens. Not that I want them.

Fresh eggs are almost a completely different food than the corn fed antibiotic pumped ones we buy in the store. They yolks are a different color and texture. The flavor is amazing and they are better for you to boot.

[Scott Loven]

"PS -- Personally, I think it's ridiculous to keep chickens when eggs are a buck a dozen. But it makes her happy, and I've got to come up with a strategy. "

Ya, its like those people who spend thousands of dollars on tools, shops and wood, not to mention all the time, to make furniture when they could just buy it at Walmart and be done with it.
There is a big movement in the US to bring chicken raising back to urban life.
http://urbanchickens.org/
http://www.urbanchickens.net/
http://urbanchickenunderground.blogspot.com/

[Jim O'Dell]

Hey Eric...try your best. If you don't win, you can always have your Mom bring the chickens over to your house and she could come over every morning and take care of them. :D Jim.

[Bill Arnold]

We've lived in HOA and Non-HOA areas. HOAs serve a purpose and, if you don't like the rules, then move somewhere else.

[Jerome Hanby]

I don't doubt a word you say, but that this is a problem shows how silly people are. Where do people think chicken comes from? If you have a problem eating your own chickens, you may need your head examined. I recall my Grandmother wringing one's neck, chopping off the head, then letting it run around until it dropped (much like politicians, chickens don't really use their heads for much). As I recall, it was pretty tasty. I wouldn't want to butcher my own poultry, much like I don't want to dig my own ditches, it's too much like work, but meat is meat. And those "home grown" chickens probably had a much better (and longer) life than any that ended up at Tyson.


plus chickens lay eggs for about two or three years but live over four years. In the old days the chicken would be butchered and eaten, but now they get dumped off at the humane society.
Roger

[Carlos Alden]

I don't doubt a word you say, but that this is a problem shows how silly people are. Where do people think chicken comes from? If you have a problem eating your own chickens, you may need your head examined. I recall my Grandmother wringing one's neck, chopping off the head, then letting it run around until it dropped (much like politicians, chickens don't really use their heads for much).

Then there's the story of Mike the Headless Chicken, who refused to die. PURPORTEDLY true.

http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/index.php

Carlos

[Dave Schreib]

Work on changing the rules. Though MIL will have to be prepared for the possibility that they will allow some other critters to move in next to her, and depending what those critters are - she may not be happy. Children for example. :)

I think you were kidding but I think the worst thing to do would be to threaten to go nuclear. Your mother in law will go from being that "nice, but different, older woman who really loved her chickens. To "that nasty lady who threaten to make everybody miserable unless she was allowed to break the rules that everybody lived by." I dont think I she will want to spend her golden years being known as that person.

But your primary goal should always be to keep the chickens and the MIL from moving in with you! I know this from experience so do whatever you have to do.

[Brian Ashton]

I would be looking at the rules specifically. If they allow pets then you will need to find a way to get the chickens to fall under the legal definition. I would suspect that the legal definition of a pet in any jurisdiction doesn't include or exclude specific animals but more how they're kept and the numbers...

If you're really serious and you can adequately classify the chickens as pets under the legal definition it's highly unlikely the HOA will give in irregardless and you'll need to take it to court. Law is a very gray area and often it comes down to you having a good argument.

So ultimately if you can get the chikens to fall under the definition of the law and you can support it with case law you stand a chance of winning. Having 8 for laying purposes would be a stretch though. Two that come and go in the house would be easier to argue. Google chickens as pets...

Anyway you look at it the HOA will oppose you ever step of the way so you're in for a long and possibly expensive battle.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Don't fight the HOA. The rules protect your MIL from the guy next door who wants to raise donkeys as "pets" and the plumber across the street who want's to change the oil in his vans in his driveway.

If the HOA can be convinced to change to the rules, so be it.

As with the recent thread with the workshop in the apartment garage, rules are rules. Live with them or change them.

Oh, yea... one other thing. Check with the county to see if any instances of Bird Flu have popped up in the last few years. One scared neighbor = another nail in the coffin.
.

[Bill Arnold]

... it's highly unlikely the HOA will give in irregardless and you'll need to take it to court. Law is a very gray area and often it comes down to you having a good argument. ...
Lemme see here now. Attorney's fees - court costs - buy eggs at the grocery. I think I know where my money's goin'! :confused:

[Randal Stevenson]

Make SURE you read the covenants, as SHE can be responsible for both HER and THE HOA's legal fee's if she fights it.

We had a local HOA that a member painted his house a non approved color (different shade of an approved one), the HOA started their process and he obtained a FULL list of their approved colors, He painted his house striped of EACH of those colors. When the smoke cleared, the HOA payed to paint his house the shade he had since it was in the same family as their approved, and changed their covenants, to prevent future striped housing.

So while she may lose, there are things she can do to become a pain.

[Jason Roehl]

As a painter, Randal, that is downright funny. Thanks for the laugh--I needed it.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

Going up against a HOA in short order will most likely not work out. It's easier to go against municipality regulations.

Even if chickens are allowed by the municipality it's highly possible that a HOA would lock it out.

Given the amount of yard space she most likely has I'd say 8 chickens is too many.. A saving grace is that she does NOT have a rooster.

You could go the pet route if they were rare breeds or bantams. However this is unlikely.

Go neb around http://www.backyardchickens.com and see what you can find there RE HOA rules.

But again, it's NOT like going against city regs. You've got to shine up to those on the HOA board. Of which if your mother knows any of them, it would be a plus.

At any rate, there are a few key things that people seem to pick up on when they talk about chickens... #1) Smell.... #2) Noise... #3) Bird flu... #4) Aesthetics.

Those are the four key items that will be concerns that will be brought up at the meeting.

When all else fails, bribe the offending person with eggs.

Of 11 hens, I get 7-8 eggs a day. Far more than we need, so we're always giving some away.

But then, I live in the county with no HOA in sight.

[Mitchell Andrus]

We had a local HOA that a member painted his house a non approved color (different shade of an approved one), the HOA started their process and he obtained a FULL list of their approved colors, He painted his house striped of EACH of those colors. When the smoke cleared, the HOA payed to paint his house the shade he had since it was in the same family as their approved, and changed their covenants, to prevent future striped housing.

In NJ, it's called the "black house" syndrome. When I enacted our town's property maintenance ordinance, part of it included repair of peeling paint. A nearby town used their PMO to force a homeowner to paint his house. He did. Black. We learned that you can't legislate good taste and that in the public arena, you can't enforce color choices unless protected by other considerations such as historic preservation.

A PMO seems extreme until your house won't sell because of your neighbor's house's condition.

Likewise, a HOA rules may seem extreme until your house won't sell because of your neighbor's house's condition.
.

[Roger Myers]

I've seen many people post that 29 out of 30 don't have a problem, and I understand that position...however, the 1 out of 30 who does object bought their property with the understanding that the applicable covenants and other HOA rules would be enforced. I don't live in a HOA now, but did for many years, including serving as the HOA president (wouldn't want to do that again). When you buy into a propert covered by covenants (no matter if in a HOA or not) you should know and understand the rules. What may seem silly or inconsequential to you may be an issue to others who bought under the same rules. just my .02

[Mike Henderson]

Around here, unless the association is totally unreasonable, the courts generally side with them. I think the courts want to discourage those kind of suits and encourage people to come to a resolution on their own. Since it's pretty clear the chickens are prohibited, it'd be very tough to prevail in court.

Any legal action is likely to cost a lot, will cause upset in the neighborhood, and if she loses, she could wind up paying the association's legal fees.

And just a comment on covenants. Builders generally draw up the CC&Rs and they do so to make the development more appealing to buyers. Many people have experienced problem neighborhoods and are looking for neighbors who have the same values and are willing to live by the CC&Rs. They believe the CC&Rs will help protect their property value.

If the CC&Rs were not what people want, the builder would have more difficulty selling the homes - or they'd offer the homes without deed restrictions. People buy into restricted communities because they want those restrictions. Those who do not want the restrictions should not buy into them.

If you choose to live in a deed restricted community, you have an obligation to live by the rules.

Mike

[Eric Larsen]

I have no intention of "lawyering up" on this. I think it's silly to keep poultry because the expenses have already greatly exceeded any savings on eggs (even when buying fresh eggs at $4/dozen).

But MIL wants to keep them, and I'd like to see her stay happy.

The HOA in question is 100% owner run. This is a small community -- about 30 families in a gated area (I haven't actually counted).

The HOA president is a friend of MIL's, and didn't tell her that there was a complaint until the person complained twice more -- by then it had already escalated in the mind of the complainer (we don't know who it is).

We also don't know the reason for the complaint -- noise, smell, an aversion to farm animals in general, who knows?

If the HOA presses, we'll fold -- kill the chickens and have coq au vin. But guess who has to handle the axe if that happens? I'm hardly squeamish, but I don't really want to kill a bunch of chickens if I don't have to. (As a meat eater, it seems hypocritical to balk at killing my own food.)

[Dan Friedrichs]

The whole point of the HOA is to execute the will of the majority of the owners (the assumption being that the majority, as a group, has better taste and foresight than one individual owner). If you genuinely have 29/30 on your side, you shouldn't have any problem. Propose ammending the bylaws to prohibit animals which are a nuisance by virtue of noise and/or smell, with no references to particular species.

[Jeff Wright]

I don't get it.

Upon entering into a rental or purchase agreement, in my view it's the buyer's/renter's responsibility to become familiar with the rules of the community - and then live by them.

To me it's similar to the person who buys a home near a small airport and after moving in starts an effort to close down the airport because they are annoyed with the noise. The hell with the rights of the airport owners. It's this self-serving self-righteous behavior that is partly to blame for our society's demise.

My advice: tell her to get rid of the chickens.

[Eric Larsen]

My advice: tell her to get rid of the chickens.

You don't know my mother in law. Under the dictionary heading for "stubborn" you can find her picture. And she's not going to "get rid" of the chickens. I'M stuck with that job if it has to be done.

We're going to explore every avenue outside of hiring an attorney before "getting rid" of the chickens.

And besides, these are heritage chickens -- Plymouths, Rhode Island reds, etc. They're beautiful birds. I know eventually I'm going to have to kill every one of them. (Naming them all "Antoinette" was my idea.) But I'm not in a hurry to wring their necks.

[Mike Henderson]

If it comes to having to get rid of the chickens, look for someone who might want them. Around here, many recent immigrants raise chickens. Perhaps you can find someone outside of a restricted community who will take them and raise them for eggs (and eventually Sunday dinner).

Mike

P.S. I grew up on a poultry farm, primarily eggs but also some fryers, and turkeys for Thanksgiving.

[Bill Arnold]

... If you genuinely have 29/30 on your side, you shouldn't have any problem. ...
Apparently, you have never lived in an HOA area. The rules are what matters and that's the end of it.

The exception is when a bunch of folks who have nothing better to do than exercise their power on others. We had a neighbor in Florida who wanted to add a deck and small pool to the back and side of his house. HOA rules allowed such additions. Everyone on our street thought it was a great idea. All required setbacks would be maintained and landscaping would be added to enhance the appearance. There were other houses with similar arrangements. Most other houses on our street had concrete decks, pools and cages. The Architectural Committee nixed the pool and there was no appeal. The AC gave many reasons for denial and didn't want to hear about the other properties with similar additions. The HOA gave them the power to be horse's behinds and they gleefully exercised their power.

Most of the HOA actions helped maintain the appropriate appearance of the development. We took good care of our place and still got the occasional notice about a maintenance matter. Chances are we would have already taken care of it by the time we received written notice but the people doing the drive-arounds had to find some issue with all properties. It was their duty! By the way, the community we lived in down there had nearly 700 houses when we bought and over 3,000 when we moved away.

We have had no issue living in an HOA area but certainly enjoy the freedoms of a rural area of South Georgia.

[Stephen Tashiro]

Explain that you bought your mother in law the chickens in order to distract her from her interest in becoming a heavy metal drummer, starting a foundry, running a meth lab or some other activity that the HOA would find more threatening.

[Bill Arnold]

Explain that you bought your mother in law the chickens in order to distract her from her interest in becoming a heavy metal drummer, starting a foundry, running a meth lab or some other activity that the HOA would find more threatening.
...or setting up a wood shop???

Here's what our two-car garage looked like on a typical day when I'd be working in it.

http://bbarnold.com/images/shoppix/shop-wide-1a.jpg

The HOA rule about garages was that there had to be room for one car to be parked inside at night. It took me five minutes or less to roll my carts and move a couple of boxes into "my" side of the garage. I never had any complaints from neighbors. In fact, many of them would drop by to see what project I was working on that day. If anyone needed something cut, they brought it over. Nobody ever complained about noise because I didn't start before 8am weekdays and 9am on weekends.

One thing you have to watch out for with an HOA is untrained people answering their phones. I had to treat for a serious weed situation in my front yard, then replace the sod. I called to be sure about the rule for using the irrigation system since we had watering restrictions at the time. The woman said I could only use the irrigation system (untreated water) during the one day a week it was allowed. Then she suggested using our regular garden hose (treated water) to keep the sod moist. Needless to say, my next call was to our neighborhood representative on the HOA who is probably still laughing to this day. The rule was you could water new sod every day or as necessary to ensure it stayed alive.

Rules are rules. Live with them or move! :)

[Carlos Alden]

You don't know my mother in law. Under the dictionary heading for "stubborn" you can find her picture. And she's not going to "get rid" of the chickens. I'M stuck with that job if it has to be done.

We're going to explore every avenue outside of hiring an attorney before "getting rid" of the chickens.

And besides, these are heritage chickens -- Plymouths, Rhode Island reds, etc. They're beautiful birds. I know eventually I'm going to have to kill every one of them. (Naming them all "Antoinette" was my idea.) But I'm not in a hurry to wring their necks.

Eric: Thanks for the morning laughs. On all counts. :) Good luck with your foul dilemma.

Carlos

[Scott Hildenbrand]

I'M stuck with that job if it has to be done.

Freecycle or Craigslist.. $4-5 per hen.


And besides, these are heritage chickens -- Plymouths, Rhode Island reds, etc.

Dime a dozen standard breeds. If you need a resource on how to kill and process them, let me know... Be SURE and do it in the front yard when the time comes. :D

[Adam Shapiro]

[QUOTE=Eric Larsen;1262112]I have no intention of "lawyering up" on this. I think it's silly to keep poultry because the expenses have already greatly exceeded any savings on eggs (even when buying fresh eggs at $4/dozen).

Never thought I'd be commenting on chickens on a woodworking site, but I've learned so much from reading here about woodworking, I may as while chime in on a topic closer to my day job. I'm not licensed in NV (I practice only in PA and NJ), so take this as general advise and not specific to your MIL's situation.

The first approach the President of your MIL's association took was a good one, delay. See if there's any chance of keeping the topic off the meeting agenda or responding to citations with written requests for rule clarification. If you push it to the next meeting long enough, sometimes the opposition loses interest in the fight, or with enough free eggs they might be brought around to your side of things. If not, politics is your next step, and talking about nuclear options and loud animals is not helpful, it'll only piss off the people who have those loud barking dogs and don't already care one way or the other about her chickens. Talk to the board members ahead of the meeting, see if a comprise might be on the table, fewer chickens, smaller pens, etc. Boards members break down into two general types (warning: wild over-generalization to follow): those who were guilted into serving and just want the meetings over with, and those who see their oath to uphold the letter of the Declaration as a higher calling, who drive around looking for violations daily. Try to work with the first group as much as possible. The Board could just vote to "investigate" the complaint or defer for further clarification on whether chickens are pets or farm animals. If you can't work something out before the meeting (fewer chickens, donate eggs to a local charity, whatever), you've gotta make a speech. Be nice, not threatening. Mom likes her chickens, she misread the rules and thought they qualified as pets, let's not slaughter these, she won't get any more, whatever. It won't matter, because if you've got to make the speech yourself, 99 times out of a hundred you'll lose. I don't mean to be dismissive, just honest.

One other thing to keep in mind, and this goes back to the "lawyering up" comment. Just because you're MIL doesn't get a lawyer, that doesn't mean the HOA will not. If the HOA gets an attorney involved, or an monitoring agency to check her yard for chicken, you're MIL pays their bills. If she doesn't pay, she gets hit with penalties, interest, and ultimately foreclosure (again, I don't practice in NV, but that's the norm in most of the country). I've beat HOA's before, but only with clients who understand the financial risk they're taking on and the threat of having to pay the HOA's costs. It's almost never worth the risk.

Good luck.

Adam

[Rod Upfold]

This might be a dumb question from a Canadian - what in the blazes is a HOA?

[Scott Hildenbrand]

That is a dumb question... :D

Just kidding.. ;)

Home owners association. Group of people who rule over sub divisions and whatnot who say what you can and can not do with your home.

Bad thing for those who like lawn flamingos.

[Dan Friedrichs]

This might be a dumb question from a Canadian - what in the blazes is a HOA?

To follow-up on what Scott said, HOA's are kind of a scary proposition to many people (or at least to the kind of people who hang out here :D). Since you willingly agree to their rules when you buy a house in one of these neighborhoods, the rules can be REALLY limiting.

Some of them make sense (limit you from painting your house day-glo orange), but some are wild. For instance, I am not allowed to have my garage door open unless I am actively putting a car into or out of the garage. :eek:

What's really frightening (to me, at least) is that a huge percentage of suburban neighborhoods built in the last few decades are controlled by HOAs. This can really limit your home-buying options if you don't want to deal with a HOA.

[Mike Henderson]

That is a dumb question... :D

Just kidding.. ;)

Home owners association. Group of people who rule over sub divisions and whatnot who say what you can and can not do with your home.

Bad thing for those who like lawn flamingos.
Let me clarify that just a bit.

When you buy into a deed restricted community, there is a document that lists the restrictions that apply to the dwelling. Usually, everyone in the subdivision is bound by the same set of restrictions.

The problem is how to administer the rules. To do that, most deed restrictions call for a Homeowner Association (HOA), with the members elected by the homeowners. To these people fall the task of enforcing the deed restrictions.

Problems can occur on both sides. You can have someone elected to the board who thinks they are now a policeman and they're going to enforce every rule to the letter.

But you can also have owners who don't want to live by the restrictions - who just feel that the rules don't apply to them.

Both are a pain in the xxx, but at least the owners can vote the policeman out of office. It's more difficult to deal with the recalcitrant homeowner and the board may have to take legal action.

I think many of the people posting here only consider the policeman when they comment on HOAs, but as someone who as served on a board, the recalcitrant owners are as much, or more, of a problem.

So the knife cuts both ways.

Mike

[Mike Black Milford, MI]

You only have 30 home in this community. Does the HOA have enough money to hire a lawyer to go up against this situation? Especially if only 1 person out of 20 is pushing for action? If not, then I would personally ignore any HOA suggestions about changing. I'd be poite and nod and smile but I'de ignore them after they left. If they have the money and backing to hire a lawyer to go after the hens, than fold. It's just a poker game and you are in the poker capital of the world.

[Bob Borzelleri]

Two things come to mind. We have lived in a home with a HOA. It was no big deal because the developer ran it until all the lots were sold and then we all let it die on the vine.

The home we built 5 years ago is on a private road with 8 5 acre lots of which 5 are built up. The folks across the road had donkeys, a goat and chickens. The donkeys would escape weekly and we all got pretty good at herding them. The goat would escape and eat whatever was let over after the deer ravished the landscaping. The chickens live in coops that are out of sight and smell.

While we don't have a HOA, we do have a mountain lion. All that's left of the menagerie are the chickens (the donkeys survived the lion attack but demanded to be traded).

And then there's Woody Allen's closing line in Annie Hall:

Alvy Singer: It was great seeing Annie again and I realized what a terrific person she was and how much fun it was just knowing her and I thought of that old joke, you know, the, this, this guy goes to a psychiatrist and says, 'Doc, uh, my brother's crazy, he thinks he's a chicken,' and uh, the doctor says, 'well why don't you turn him in?' And the guy says, 'I would, but I need the eggs.' Well, I guess that's pretty much now how I feel about relationships. You know, they're totally irrational and crazy and absurd and, but uh, I guess we keep going through it...because...most of us need the eggs.

Maybe the HOA folks have concluded that they don't need the eggs.

[Eric Larsen]

Here's the deal:


Here's what happened. The HOA meeting went quickly. The "complaints and letters" portion of the meeting came up, and the HOA vice president said they received complaints about chickens and a rooster.

I truthfully said I had also heard the rooster, and since I live 1 mile from my MIL, I concluded that the rooster must be in a subdivision between our two communities.

The HOA president (who is a good friend of my MIL and knows damned well she keeps eight hens) asked, "Does anyone know anything about any chickens?" Nobody said a word.

The HOA president then asked the vice president the source of the complaint. The vice president said he couldn't comment in open session because of the HOA rules. The president then said, "But you can tell me in executive session, and I can go have a word with him?"

Other than mentioning the rooster, I didn't say or do a thing. Crisis averted. But thanks to everyone who offered advice.

If this happens again, I'll dredge up this thread and ask more questions.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

Roosters are always the top thing to be complained about and with good reason.. They're noisy..

Mine likes to crow around 4am at times.. And as late as 12... For that matter any time in between.

If your MIL had a roo, I'd surely call her crackers... ;)

It's hard sometimes to pinpoint where a roo is crowing from since they carry so far.. So it's easy to jump to the assumption that she might have one that's crowing.. At which point I'd have complained, too.

[Eric Larsen]

It's hard sometimes to pinpoint where a roo is crowing from since they carry so far.. So it's easy to jump to the assumption that she might have one that's crowing.. At which point I'd have complained, too.


Since you know about chickens, I have a few last questions if you don't mind. When's the best time to stop thinking of them as "egg producers" and start thinking of them as "coq au vin?"

Is there a "sweet spot" for butchering? Time of year? Age of hen? Any change of diet prior to butchering?

I'm still not looking forward to killing them, but I know it's something that I'm going to have to do in the near future, and may as well get the info now.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

Ohhh..... 8-10 months of age... That's when the meat is still tender... As they age, the meat gets tough.. Hens can lay 2-3 years, or more however. But it all depends on the hen.

To have anything worth eating, soak in white wine for 24 hours and then cook as LOW and as SLOW as you can so that the meat slumps off the bone. Else it will be like chewing on a jacket.

There's no certain time of year. No need to change diet either, unless you want to give them a last meal.. Then I suggest spaghetti and yogurt. ;)

Be just as well to check on a butcher in the area. Not exactly economically viable for so few birds, but saves time and trouble.

This is about the BEST information on butchering you can come by.. Great reading, even if you'll never kill your birds yourself.

http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=109583

But really.. A butcher might be an easier route. They'll have the equipment and skill to do it quickly and chances are they'll be able to flash freeze the birds and tell you just how you should cook them.

[Randal Stevenson]

In the meantime, (I am walking a thin line here), have her look into changing religions, aka Voodoo, where the chickens could be part of a religious ceremony.


And don't get on her bad side, or you will be hexed.:D

[Scott Hildenbrand]

That always freaks me out, those eggs full of blood, grass, bone chunks and whatnot... Eeeewwwwww....

Bad juju...

[Jim Rimmer]

It's more difficult to deal with the recalcitrant homeowner and the board may have to take legal action.
Mike
I attended my HOA meeting last night and the subject of what Mike refers to as recalcitrant owners (or, even worse, those who have leased their homes and may be out of the country) came up. The manager of the company that handles our HOA explained the process - letters are sent several times, lawyers are engaged, fines are levied, liens are filed. But nothing really happens until the owner tries to sell the house and then the lien has to be addressed. HOAs can foreclose but that doesn't happen often and it usually makes national news when it does.

Our HOA has restrictions on boats being parked in the drive or street and there are city ordinances about parking them in the street - both have time limits. One homeowner basically flaunts the rule through the time limit loophole. He moves the boat a few feet every x number of hours.

[Lee Schierer]

Is there a "sweet spot" for butchering? Time of year? Age of hen? Any change of diet prior to butchering?

Once they start laying they start getting tougher. Most "fryers" you buy in the store are barely 3-4 months old. About all an old laying hen is good for is chicken & biscuits and rely heavily on chopping the meat to bits before cooking. The phrase "She's a tough old bird!" came from a lying hen....

[John A. Callaway]

There is always the option of using a alternative hobby over keeping chickens. Aside from my dabbling in working with hand tools and making the occasional pen on the lathe, I have been into car audio for years.... Not the "piss you off at a traffic light" kind of car audio, but more along the lines of a 31 year old with a very high quality, responsibly controlled car audio system... The point is, my system has been tuned with a RTA ( real time analyzer ) and a oscilloscope ..... And in the process, I had it's decibel level measured at peak volume. It plays at just over 141 decibels.... Which , as you can imagine, could be very loud if played in the wrong location.

There is a Lady named Alma Gates. She is about 65 years old. About ten years ago, In a mild debate with some of her grand children's friends, she got into car audio, and car audio competitions. She is the owner of one of the loudest vehicles in the car audio competition circuit. She ended up being sponsored by a large car audio company....

So in all of this, your ma-in-law could be doing several things that could and would aggravate her neighbors in a much bigger way. After all, most city ordinances only enforce loud noise violations after 9 or 10 p.m.

Check local laws, and make sure she isn't violating any livestock laws by keeping these chickens in her yard. Some Locales have laws pertaining to livestock and residential areas. If she is violating these laws, case closed. If not, depending on how willing you are to help her fight this, a judge would almost certainly agree that a few chickens are not any worse than a yard full of blue-tic hounds or beagles, which will howl all the time, destroy a nice yard, and bark at the clouds at night..... ALL NIGHT LONG.

You have to do your homework, and stand your ground.

[Michael Wetzel]

And if I'm forced to play Henry VIII, I'm going to buy my mother in law two beagles and a Moluccan cockatoo.


Nonono... 2 beagles and a rabbit :eek:

[bob klein]

have you tried to have a conversation with the one person that is making the noise? perhaps talking to them privately and just ask what can you do to satisfy them without your mom giving up her chickens may be helpful.

if that doesnt work, annoy the prick forever.

[Eric Larsen]

have you tried to have a conversation with the one person that is making the noise? perhaps talking to them privately and just ask what can you do to satisfy them without your mom giving up her chickens may be helpful.

if that doesnt work, annoy the prick forever.


We just found out who was complaining today. And yes, she's had problems with this neighbor before. I'd write more about these neighbors, but I've recently run afoul of SMC profanity rules, and do not wish to do so again. (I thought it was OK to use such words in a scholarly manner -- mea culpa. (Yep, busted for quoting George Washington.))

I suppose I could describe this family with G-Rated language. But it simply wouldn't be the same. Sometimes, there's only one word that can get the job done. :D