planer snipe: raising infeed/outfeed supports

[Matthew Hills]

I've got one of the benchtop planers and have been getting some snipe. The common advice I've seen is to raise the infeed/outfeed wings (so the leading/trailing edges of the board don't pivot up into the cutter when the long end dips off the infeed/outfeed table)

My question is how much the wings can be raised, and what happens if they are raised too much?

I've raised the wings so that a long board across the wings would clear the planer bed by almost 1/8" now... and still get some snipe.

(this is on a ridgid r4330 planer; finish is otherwise fine, and I'm just cutting off the extra 2")

Matt

[Conrad Fiore]

Matt,
Have you tried lifting the back of the board as it enters the planer until you feel the back rollers catch and again lifting the front of the board as it exits the plainer until you feel it come off the back roller?

[Peter Quinn]

Is the snipe on the infeed, outfeed, or both? Is the chip breaker in any way adjustable, and are the feed rollers in any way adjustable in terms of height and pressure? These are the first things to adjust if possible. Also, are there bed rollers and how are they set? Bed rollers set too high can lead to some minor snipe on both ends, though setting them flush can make planing rough material difficult. Not sure how much control they give you in terms of adjustment on a lunch box?

As far as feed support table height I would think you can raise them until the point where the feed rollers are no longer able to hold the stock to the table as it passes the cutter head, and that point depends on the machine and its condition relative to the springs on the feed rollers. On longer material I give the stock a firm but conservative "lift" at each end of the machine when I start getting snipe. Think of it more like a pinball machine that requires a little user input and less of a mechanical shoving things in and collecting them as they come out. On the industrial planer at work the pressure bar is mal adjusted, so I get a good 6"'s of snipe, as much as .015" on infeed. To over come this I pull up pretty hard until i can feel the stock hit the chip breaker. You don't have an infeed pressure bar on a small planer and you probably can't pull up as hard without damaging the infeed rollers over time, but the same idea should work if done gently. I'd play with some scrap a bit too check the results.

PS: I try to gang short parts by leaving them whole in one board if possible so any snipe is limited to the ends of one board instead of multiplied by the number of parts involved, then cross cutting later. If this is not possible, I run short parts butt to butt in one continuous string which seems to help a bit. Sort of last ditch efforts to minimize the snipes impact when I cant eliminate it.

[Zach England]

The only way I have gotten snipe out of my ridgid planer is to put a small board of similar thickness in front of and behind the workpiece. Essentially, it keeps the rollers level and absorbs the snipe. I found the best setting for it was perfectly level infeed/outfeed tables. I take a long straight edge or well-straightened board on edge and lower the cutting head down on it until it is tight, then adjust the tables accordingly. Put the straight-edge on both the front and back edges of the tables, then diagonally. This will almost eliminate it, and will be good enough for most uses with a quick pass with the block plane or sander.

[Matthew Hills]

The only way I have gotten snipe out of my ridgid planer is to put a small board of similar thickness in front of and behind the workpiece.

This seems to help. Any advice on the chicken dance around the planer -- trying to get the scrap piece fed before the work piece jumps off the outfeed table?

Did you get more snipe if you had the wings set higher?

thanks,
Matt

[glenn bradley]

I just went out and checked my DW734 which snipes so seldom that when it does it really takes me by surprise. Table size will effect the number of course but I laid a straight edge across my tables and I have a healthy 1/8" if not more, off the platten,, directly under the cutterhead.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I've done the same thing (raising the wings) on a Dewalt lunchbox, with some success. They're probably 1/8" higher than the middle of the bed.

The precise height to raise them seems to depend on the length of the board, though.

For shorter pieces, feeding them in at a slight angle helps tremendously.

I've concluded that the only way to really eliminate snipe is to get a solid, extremely rigid and well-build planer. If you support the board along its entire length, you shouldn't get snipe, but that assumes the cutterhead doesn't flex or move at all. With some lunchboxes, raising the wings helps because the cutterhead DOES move, and the raised board somewhat counters the tilted cutter.

[Fred Voorhees]

The only way I have gotten snipe out of my ridgid planer is to put a small board of similar thickness in front of and behind the workpiece. Essentially, it keeps the rollers level and absorbs the snipe. I found the best setting for it was perfectly level infeed/outfeed tables. I take a long straight edge or well-straightened board on edge and lower the cutting head down on it until it is tight, then adjust the tables accordingly. Put the straight-edge on both the front and back edges of the tables, then diagonally. This will almost eliminate it, and will be good enough for most uses with a quick pass with the block plane or sander.

I have heard this method mentioned so many times and each time I want to reply that I absolutely have to dissagree. Keeping the rollers level is not going to help in resolving snipe. Keeping THE BOARD level is what is going to prevent snipe. Once the trailing end of a board is past the infeed roller, that end is no long held down and can virtually lift up into the blades, which cause the snipe - not the rollers. Yes, the trailing board will hold up the rollers, but how is that helping the board in front of it? The rollers do not have any control over the planing level of the blades. Your better bet is to lift the forward edge of the stock while the last half a foot or so is passing the blades but is just exiting from under the leading roller. Lifting the leading edge will lower the trailing edge. Following a board into the planer with another board is not going to prevent the first board from getting snipe. I have often wanted to do a couple of sketches to demonstrate what it is I am talking about, but the concept is fairly straight forward and simple.

[Zach England]

I have heard this method mentioned so many times and each time I want to reply that I absolutely have to dissagree. Keeping the rollers level is not going to help in resolving snipe. Keeping THE BOARD level is what is going to prevent snipe. Once the trailing end of a board is past the infeed roller, that end is no long held down and can virtually lift up into the blades, which cause the snipe - not the rollers. Yes, the trailing board will hold up the rollers, but how is that helping the board in front of it? The rollers do not have any control over the planing level of the blades. Your better bet is to lift the forward edge of the stock while the last half a foot or so is passing the blades but is just exiting from under the leading roller. Lifting the leading edge will lower the trailing edge. Following a board into the planer with another board is not going to prevent the first board from getting snipe. I have often wanted to do a couple of sketches to demonstrate what it is I am talking about, but the concept is fairly straight forward and simple.

I don't disagree, but it seems to work for me. I don't ask for it to make sense. I just ask for it to work.

[Tony Bilello]

.......Any advice on the chicken dance around the planer -- trying to get the scrap piece fed before the work piece jumps off the outfeed table? Matt

Matt, the scrap pieces I use are always longer than the stock I am planing. They should also be of approx densidty, that is, 2 long scraps of pine 'protecting' a piece of white oak between them doesnt seen to work as well as 2 pieces of aok scrap sticks. Maybe the rollers crush down the pine some, I don't know. Just relaying what works for me. Even at this, it does not work 100% of the time.
My best solution is to plane everything 6" to 7" longer than needed and cut the ends off. Sometimes you just have to waste wood to ensure your project will be as good as you can get it.

[Al Willits]

For longer boards I run extra roller stands and raised them just slightly, maybe a 1/8", not sure if that helps or not but the idea is to keep the board supported the entire lenght.

Raising the ends slightly helps sometimes, sometimes not.

I also cut my boards a bit long..just in case.:D

I'm running the York 15" planner fwiw

Al

[Tom Adger]

I have a Delta benchtop, and I get about 2" snipe on each end. I have fiddled with the tables, without much effect. I am like Tony, I just allow for the snipe and make the board longer, then cut off the snipe.

[James White]

I have heard this method mentioned so many times and each time I want to reply that I absolutely have to dissagree. Keeping the rollers level is not going to help in resolving snipe. Keeping THE BOARD level is what is going to prevent snipe. Once the trailing end of a board is past the infeed roller, that end is no long held down and can virtually lift up into the blades, which cause the snipe - not the rollers. Yes, the trailing board will hold up the rollers, but how is that helping the board in front of it? The rollers do not have any control over the planing level of the blades. Your better bet is to lift the forward edge of the stock while the last half a foot or so is passing the blades but is just exiting from under the leading roller. Lifting the leading edge will lower the trailing edge. Following a board into the planer with another board is not going to prevent the first board from getting snipe. I have often wanted to do a couple of sketches to demonstrate what it is I am talking about, but the concept is fairly straight forward and simple.

It depends on what the cause of the snipe is. On a less robust planer the pressure of the in feed roller can actually push the bed and the board lower in relation to the cutter head. Therefore once the end of the board passes the in feed roller the bed and board spring back up causing snipe. This can happen for both the in feed and out feed side. Try it, if it works you know were your problem may be. If not you know to look else were. For me lessening the feed roller pressure resolved my snipe issues. It wasn't anything to do with the board be supported.

James

[Cary Falk]

I believe my Delta manual says to take 2 pennys and on the left side put one at the outfeed and one at the infeed on the main table. Put a straight edge on the pennys and adjust the infeed and outfeed tables so the outermost edges of the table touch the straight edge. Do the same thing on the right. No snipe for me.

[Alan Schaffter]

1. Carefully check everything you can adjust
2. Support the boards properly
3. Make sure the cutter head is locked tight
4. Take much lighter passes
5. Buy a real planer that has some cast iron in it, that won't flex and can be adjusted properly. Use Bob Vaugh's alignment vidoes.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

Matt - I had a terrible time this weekend with snipe (and other problems) with my planer (DW735). I've been thinking a lot (even before this weekend) about the occasional snipe I've been seeing, and I have some theories.....

However - something concrete I noticed this weekend has to do with the infeed roller actually LIFTING the trailing edge of the board into the cutter if there's enough friction) resistance to the board being pushed through.

Think about it - the infeed roller is pushing the piece along merrily, and just as the stock is about to move past it, you stop the board. What happens? the roller will most likely slip and just spin. Now, still securing the board, let it move through a little more....then a little more...and then right at the point where the rear edge of the board just moves past the lowest part of the roller, the 'up' movement of that roller will catch and actually lift the rear of the board up. If there's enough resistance to the board moving through, this will happen.

FWIW, I took off all the side guards, etc, off my DW735 (with it unplugged, of course) and took a piece that had gone through and had TERRIBLE rear snipe, and sure enough - it lined up perfectly. If I put the start of the area of snipe right at the cutterhead (where the knives would start cutting), the rear/trailing edge of the workpiece lined up *exactly* at the corner (edge) of the board that had just passed under the infeed roller. this would be the same as if you did not have good outfeed support of the piece, but I think this 'lifting' will happen regardless of how well the piece is supported....

2 things to help are to clean the rollers (if they're dusty/smooth) so they push the board better, and wax or otherwise clean the bed of the planer.

[James White]

Matt - I had a terrible time this weekend with snipe (and other problems) with my planer (DW735). I've been thinking a lot (even before this weekend) about the occasional snipe I've been seeing, and I have some theories.....

However - something concrete I noticed this weekend has to do with the infeed roller actually LIFTING the trailing edge of the board into the cutter if there's enough friction) resistance to the board being pushed through.

Think about it - the infeed roller is pushing the piece along merrily, and just as the stock is about to move past it, you stop the board. What happens? the roller will most likely slip and just spin. Now, still securing the board, let it move through a little more....then a little more...and then right at the point where the rear edge of the board just moves past the lowest part of the roller, the 'up' movement of that roller will catch and actually lift the rear of the board up. If there's enough resistance to the board moving through, this will happen.

FWIW, I took off all the side guards, etc, off my DW735 (with it unplugged, of course) and took a piece that had gone through and had TERRIBLE rear snipe, and sure enough - it lined up perfectly. If I put the start of the area of snipe right at the cutterhead (where the knives would start cutting), the rear/trailing edge of the workpiece lined up *exactly* at the corner (edge) of the board that had just passed under the infeed roller. this would be the same as if you did not have good outfeed support of the piece, but I think this 'lifting' will happen regardless of how well the piece is supported....

2 things to help are to clean the rollers (if they're dusty/smooth) so they push the board better, and wax or otherwise clean the bed of the planer.

John,

What you are describing can be what I was trying to describe. Can you send a board through that does not require you to be on the out feed side. Then just as the board passes the in feed roller watch the planer bed to see if it hops up with the board or do you see the board lift off the bed. This will result not only from the bed flexing under the compression of the roller but it can also tip as the weight of the board and roller pressure shifts from the infeed to the out feed side of the planer.

James

[Joshua Layne]

Take a piece of thick melamine-veneered MDF or particle board and put a cleat on one edge. Feed this through the planer (not running!) so that the cleat keeps it from moving (basically the cleat rests on the lip of the front table) - the longer table provides better support for the planer and that, along with using the cutter-head lock on my Delta has virtually eliminated any snipe - wide boards, narrows boards, short boards and long boards) My table is about 4' long and for longer boards, I also set up a roller stand to catch the lip of the board, but alignment is tricky on that - you'd really be better off with a longer board

[James White]

Take a piece of thick melamine-veneered MDF or particle board and put a cleat on one edge. Feed this through the planer (not running!) so that the cleat keeps it from moving (basically the cleat rests on the lip of the front table) - the longer table provides better support for the planer and that, along with using the cutter-head lock on my Delta has virtually eliminated any snipe - wide boards, narrows boards, short boards and long boards) My table is about 4' long and for longer boards, I also set up a roller stand to catch the lip of the board, but alignment is tricky on that - you'd really be better off with a longer board

Joshua,

I like that idea allot. Not only does it make the planer bed more rigid. It also adds mass in genaral and puts a bit of pre-load on the bed as well.

James

[Dan Bowman]

Another vote for putting a scrap in front, and then butting the remaining pieces so there is no gap between any board. On the last board, I give a little upward and outward pull as the trailing end is going through. It's the only thing that works consistently with my Dewalt 735. But it does keep you hopping. On shorter boards I use the slow setting so I have more time between boards.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

John,

What you are describing can be what I was trying to describe. Can you send a board through that does not require you to be on the out feed side. Then just as the board passes the in feed roller watch the planer bed to see if it hops up with the board or do you see the board lift off the bed. This will result not only from the bed flexing under the compression of the roller but it can also tip as the weight of the board and roller pressure shifts from the infeed to the out feed side of the planer.

James

James - I see what you are talking about, but my situations was a little different. I actually ran into the 'friction' issue when using a planer sled, and I'm pretty confident that there was no deflection on the bed. I'm also confident that the work was WELL supported on the outfeed side, so there was no 'lifting' of the trailing edge because of poor support. The only way to get the snipe I was seeing was for the infeed roller to push so hard on the piece that it pushed and lefted the trailing edge into the cutter.

[Brian Backner]

One of the best discussions of snipe and its causes can be found here (an old Badger Pond article):

www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/ (http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/)planer_setup.pdf

Also look at this online article from FWW:

jimnevins.net/woodworking/Fine%20Woodworking/.../110070058.PDF

There are also some videos online at the OWWM website's wiki that are pretty good:

http://wiki.owwm.com/Jointer%20And%20Planer%20Knife%20Setting%20Videos. ashx

Brian

[Alan Schaffter]

One of the best discussions of snipe and its causes can be found here (an old Badger Pond article):

Woodcentral Badger Pond Article on snipe (pdf format) (http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/planer_setup.pdf)

Also look at this online article by Kintner, Holland and Bob Vaugh from FWW:

FWW article w/drawings (PDF format) (http://jimnevins.net/woodworking/Fine%20Woodworking/contents/1988/110070058.PDF)

Bob Vaugh's videos are online at the OWWM website's wiki that are pretty good:

http://wiki.owwm.com/Jointer%20And%20Planer%20Knife%20Setting%20Videos. ashx

Brian

Brian, I fixed the URL's for you. Everyone who owns a planer or jointer should view Bob's videos.

[Brian Backner]

Thank you Alan.

Brian