Looking for the best in shop table saw I can buy. I only want to buy one saw.

[Nick Sorenson]

I run a shop building guitars. I need a very accurate table saw. I assume the fence is going to be as much a part of this as the saw.

I will not need to cart the saw around. It will be in shop.

I'd like to use it as a jointer. I'm guessing this means that the fence must be dead straight.

I checked out a saw with a Biesemeyer Fence tonight and I noticed the fence had a board screwed to the fence (Blade side) and laminate to cover the screws. The fence was probably .010" - .020" from straight in places. We ripped a few boards and of course the joints were not good enough for glue.

So that leads me to my question. Can the fence be fixed to dead straight and how hard is it?

I have a few saws I'm considering and I'd like to add a few more to the list if I should. I'm new and don't know much.

I do know I want VERY accurate tools. I have an old DeWalt Radial Arm Saw and it is one of the best. It's taught me that great build quality in a tool makes life much easier in wood working.

So.... I only want to buy one saw for the next 20 years. I don't need to cart it around. I run a shop.

I am not concerned as much about how much (of course cost hurts but I'm more concerned with the quality of the cut).

What should I buy?

So far I've considered the following:
-PM 65
-PM 66
-Delta Unisaw
-Ridgid
-Bosch (the one that collapses)

[scott spencer]

Nick - The PM66 and the Unisaw are considered top notch industrial cabinet saws....(not sure why've you've included the Bosch on your list if you don't need portability). Fence straightness can vary from model to model even if it's the same model...you may need to hand select your fence. The laminated faces of the Biesemeyer fence are harder to shim because the faces can't be easily removed, but they tend to be more likely to be flat than the UHMW plastic faces, which are easy to remove. The new PM2000, Saw Stop, and General 650 are also top models. For less money, you may find that something like a Grizzly G1023SL or a G0690 are suitable too.

You mention that you want to use the saw as a jointer. You can edge joint with the TS but that doesn't do anything to flatten the faces, which is a critical step to getting an adjacent edge 90° to the face.

[Roger Jensen]

Love my SawStop, but I've never used any other cabinet saw.

[Nick Sorenson]

Nick - The PM66 and the Unisaw are considered top notch industrial cabinet saws....(not sure why've you've included the Bosch on your list if you don't need portability). Fence straightness can vary from model to model even if it's the same model...you may need to hand select your fence. The laminated faces of the Biesemeyer fence are harder to shim because the faces can't be easily removed, but they tend to be more likely to be flat than the UHMW plastic faces, which are easy to remove. The new PM2000, Saw Stop, and General 650 are also top models. For less money, you may find that something like a Grizzly G1023SL or a G0690 are suitable too.

You mention that you want to use the saw as a jointer. You can edge joint with the TS but that doesn't do anything to flatten the faces, which is a critical step to getting an adjacent edge 90° to the face.


The only reason I included the Bosch is that my neighbor had one and it seemed like a good saw. Then I read on this forum tonight that a decent portable saw and a very good fence can be just as good as a cabinet saw. Not sure if that's true. I'm still fairly green to buying tools:)

[David DeCristoforo]

The PM66 and the Unisaw are the only ones on your short list I would consider. But if you go with the uni, I would dump the Biesemeyer fence in favor of the Delta unifence. OK... I can hear the accusations of blasphemy but I just think the unifence is superior for a number of reasons. For one thing you can slide the fence rail forward and back which is a very useful feature. The fence rail is aluminum which means that it is much more likely to remain flat. Even if it's not perfectly flat, you can easily make it so by lapping it (or getting it lapped by a machine shop). You can lay the fence rail on it's side when you need a low profile fence. It's also easier to attach things to the unifence (by drilling a coiuple of screw holes in it).

As to cutting glue ready edges on any table saw (assuming that the saw and fence are dialed in correctly), that is going to depend much more on your choice of blade than on your choice of saw. And you must assume that any wood you rip is going to stay straight when it's cut... no guarantees there....

[Brian J McMillan]

Personally I would go with the Unisaw and Unifence. I've had mine for almost 30 years and it is still bang on. As for a really accurate tool check out the Incra Ls Positioner And Wonder Fence. Ive had one for only a couple of months and am still pretty green as to its capabilities but so far it is very impressive. I use it on a router table with the Porter Cable Speedtronic but you can also use it as a TS fence.This thing approaches the same tolerances that machinists strive for. Dadoes, rabbets & jointing are quick and easy and easily repeatable. Seems like a perfect tool for a guitar builder.

I wonder if I can get some free stuff from Incra after this testimonial?

[Peter Quinn]

If you are building guitars, I would think a portable would not be the best choice considering the 8/4 stock you may need to process regularly. You didn't mention acoustic or electric? Are you making your own necks?

I find it easier to replace the fence plates on the powermatic accu-fence than the biesmeyer fences. I have never seen a TS as a replacement for a jointer in any event. A few passes with a jointer plane would serve to clean up any saw marks if a jointer is not available.

Don't underestimate the quality of the blade in your equation either. Some leave better ripped edge than others.

[Nick Sorenson]

If you are building guitars, I would think a portable would not be the best choice considering the 8/4 stock you may need to process regularly. You didn't mention acoustic or electric? Are you making your own necks?

I find it easier to replace the fence plates on the powermatic accu-fence than the biesmeyer fences. I have never seen a TS as a replacement for a jointer in any event. A few passes with a jointer plane would serve to clean up any saw marks if a jointer is not available.

Don't underestimate the quality of the blade in your equation either. Some leave better ripped edge than others.

Yep, 8/4 is what I'm cutting and it's all electrics. I have a DeWalt Radial that I've ripped this with and using a Forrest WWI Mr. Sawdust blade, I'm getting cut quality that's better than my jointer. But it's not a good joint because it's not dead straight. I'm getting a bow in the middle of the cuts because my table's fence edge isn't exact dead straight. I think if that were, it'd do better.


The PM66 and the Unisaw are the only ones on your short list I would consider. But if you go with the uni, I would dump the Biesemeyer fence in favor of the Delta unifence. OK... I can hear the accusations of blasphemy but I just think the unifence is superior for a number of reasons. For one thing you can slide the fence rail forward and back which is a very useful feature. The fence rail is aluminum which means that it is much more likely to remain flat. Even if it's not perfectly flat, you can easily make it so by lapping it (or getting it lapped by a machine shop). You can lay the fence rail on it's side when you need a low profile fence. It's also easier to attach things to the unifence (by drilling a coiuple of screw holes in it).

As to cutting glue ready edges on any table saw (assuming that the saw and fence are dialed in correctly), that is going to depend much more on your choice of blade than on your choice of saw. And you must assume that any wood you rip is going to stay straight when it's cut... no guarantees there....

100% agree on the blade. I expect to spend around $100-$120 on a blade. As far as the fence, Aluminum does seem like a better choice than the T-Square Biesemeyer's plastic fence. I'd much rather have a machined fence than a couple of stick on pieces of acrylic. You're point is well taken.

[Michael Schwartz]

I own a Sawstop Contractor saw with cast iron side wing, and 52" extension, as well as a Jet Exacta cabinet saw. The jet sits in the back of my shop disconnected since it doesn't compare to the SS.

I have worked with the Sawstop Industrial, Unisaw, two Powermatics, Felder, Old Rockwell, Ulmia, you name it. Of course the Felder is probably the best of the above, with exception to the safety features of the Sawstop. However the Sawstops I have worked with are a league above any other western cabinet saw I have used.

I have never had a problem with a Biesemeyer fence. I have never had an issue cutting a glue line rip on any of the saws I have worked with with this fence system.

I would highly recommend looking at the Sawstop. Not only for the safty features, that go beyond just the brake, but for the fact they have engineered a very good saw to compete in a market where everybody allready had a dream saw that costs less.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

1 saw? Sawstop industrial 5 horse. Very stable saw. The trunion and motor alone weighs more than a lot of saws. You can cut 8/4 no problem and get dead straight cuts. The stock Bies fence is fine. The only problem I could see is you need to find a 8 or 10" fret slotting blade. The 5 or 6 inch fret blades will not run in the SS. If you find one, plese let me know...

If you want very repeatable cuts, you can get the INCRA fence. But you can add that to any TS.

[Simon Dupay]

If you want accuracy you might want to consider a used Oliver, Northfield or Tanny they have cost iron fences & made to last.

[Sam Layton]

Nick, Like David said, the only saws to consider on your list is the PM66 and Unisaw. I would only consider a quality cabinet saw. The Unisaw fence is a very good fence. I have a PM66 with the accu-fence. I replaced the side boards on my fence, and it is dead straight, flat and everything else... You will find not all wood is stable, and after you cut with a straight fence the wood will warp. Any of the major fences mentioned are good, and can be made straight relatively easy.

Sam

[Cary Falk]

I'm actually surprised to see the Bosch and Ridgid on the list with the likes of the PM66 and Unisaw. I personally would stay from the PM65. I think it is harder to get parts for and if I recall I believe it has some less desirable design features. Maybe you need to get a cabinet saw and put an INCRA fence on it.

[Rick Fisher]

I am surprised nobody has suggested a hammer or Mini-Max saw.. The slider makes edge jointing a breeze.. super accurate and extremely well made..

[Neal Clayton]

i use a PM66, fence that game with it was too long (10 feet) so replaced with a vega fence, which also uses an aluminum rail, but doesn't have any sort of face cover built into the design, just bare metal, the screws that mount it to the arm/cam are on the top.

got it all set up within 2 thousandths a couple of years ago when i got it and it's still that accurate right now. use it every day.

[Rod Sheridan]

I am surprised nobody has suggested a hammer or Mini-Max saw.. The slider makes edge jointing a breeze.. super accurate and extremely well made..

OK, I'll make the pitch for a small slider like the Hammer B3 or K3.

The slider will allow you to straight line rip material for glueing, something you can't do with a cabinet saw.

If you buy a B3 you also get a built in shaper that uses the sliding table, and the shaper can run cutters or a sanding spindle which might be handy.

Regards, Rod.

[Mike Null]

I use a Delta contractor's saw with Unifence and Forrest blade.

[Nick Sorenson]

I am surprised nobody has suggested a hammer or Mini-Max saw.. The slider makes edge jointing a breeze.. super accurate and extremely well made..

I could probably make a straight sled to ride the straight edge to the fence in order to have a slider with a normal saw I'd guess? Maybe? Seems like I've seen that.


Also, everyone has ruled out all the saws on my list except the PM66 and Unisaw. Is the PM65 a bad saw?

[Arnold E Schnitzer]

I am a professional instrument maker. If you think you are going to make museum-quality joints directly from a tablesaw, you should reconsider. I use a tablesaw for the initial cutting, then go through a rigorous process until the joint is absolutely perfect. Then the joint is glued with hot hide, not a forgiving glue. BTW, I just ordered a Powermatic 2000, which is on sale for 15% off and only $6.50 shipping from Tools Plus. Good luck!

[kent borcherding]

A fine lower priced saw would be a used Inca , made in Switzerland , may have to look to find one .

A top of the line would be a Martin slider accurate to thousandth of an inch.

I live in southern wisconsin and there is a Martin slider for sale in excellent condition near here for $ 16,000. this saw will hold its value for years.

[Rod Sheridan]

I could probably make a straight sled to ride the straight edge to the fence in order to have a slider with a normal saw I'd guess? Maybe? Seems like I've seen that.


Also, everyone has ruled out all the saws on my list except the PM66 and Unisaw. Is the PM65 a bad saw?


Weren't you just mentioning the inaccuracy of the fence and now you're using it as a reference?

You need a reference edge which will only come from a jointer or sliding saw.

Regards, Rod.

[Nick Sorenson]

Weren't you just mentioning the inaccuracy of the fence and now you're using it as a reference?

You need a reference edge which will only come from a jointer or sliding saw.

Regards, Rod.

Not the inaccuracy of a fence on my saw. I checked out a saw with a fence that was off by about .010 to .020 in spots.

[Cliff Holmes]

No standard fence I've ever used comes close to the accuracy, repeatability, and quality of the Incra. The saw is really somewhat secondary, any decent saw will do.

[John Teichman]

look @ Laguna saw's w/ planer jointer on the side or mini max or hammer they i think are top of the line unless you go for oliver etc.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Just my opinion, but forget about glue line ripping with a standard saw, and just use a jointer to edge. You'll never reliably be perfectly satisfied with glue lines off a saw blade. The stock has too much potential to relieve tension as it changes dimensions passing the blade, which will push or pull the blade. That will leave visible marks at times, and there is nothing you can do about it, but run it again.

A jointer is a completely different animal because it takes off far less stock per pass, and the tension release differences are pretty much nil.

If you are stuck on the idea of jointing with a saw, the best way to do it, is to not reference to a fence for the rip. Clamping the stock to a sliders table will minimize the impact of the wood moving while being cut.

Bottom line, it's wood, it moves. I agree with Rick and Rod, consider forgetting a traditional saw design, and look at a Hammer, Felder, Minimax, Martin or Laguna something.

[Mark Warwick]

No standard fence I've ever used comes close to the accuracy, repeatability, and quality of the Incra. The saw is really somewhat secondary, any decent saw will do.

This is my experience as well. When i did live on your side of the pond, I owned an old saw, not sure of the name perhaps General? It was big and green and the top was very thick casting. It didn't cut well though and i decided to buy a delta uni-fence, and a blade stabilizer, of some fashion of the time.

Installed the fence and set it up and it was like a new saw entirely. My problem now is i have a table saw where the saw is the problem and not the fence. The bearings seem fine, so i think maybe the arbour is either ground wrong or it is bent. I get marks on my wood no matter how much adjusting and playing around I do. I may end up pulling the entire thing apart and getting a new arbor put in.

When i can afford it i will get a uni saw imported from the USA.

[John Thompson]

I am a professional instrument maker. If you think you are going to make museum-quality joints directly from a tablesaw, you should reconsider. I use a tablesaw for the initial cutting, then go through a rigorous process until the joint is absolutely perfect. Then the joint is glued with hot hide, not a forgiving glue. BTW, I just ordered a Powermatic 2000, which is on sale for 15% off and only $6.50 shipping from Tools Plus. Good luck!

This by far IMO is the best piece of advice you have gotten here Nick. And it's coming from a professional instruement maker! The PM 66.. Unisaw.. PM 2000.. and others all have acceptable run-out. But.. notice what Arnold said about initial cutting as there is no holy grail TS alone that cuts precision joints without cleanup on a jointer.. etc.. "Precise" which you seem to be after comes after the initial cut on a TS as stated by Arnold.

You are dealing with wood.. not metal which is stable once severed or ground. You need to understand that wood moves.. due to various factors as released tension... moiture.. etc. Any decent grade TS with acceptable run-out and a good fence can get you through the initial stage. The rest remains in your hands. Tiger Woods does not need an expensive set of high tech golf clubs to shoot par.. birdies or eagles. He can take a basic club and do it because he understands that any club is useles without a refined swing and technique which can't be purchased off the shelf.

Good luck...

[Joe Spear]

I also find the Incra to be extremely accurate. I am surprised that you are using a WWI blade to rip 8/4 stock. It is considered primarily a crosscut blade. I am also NOT surprised that you are getting bowed rips on a radial arm saw. Even using a 40-tooth WWII is stretching a bit to rip 8/4, although a 30-tooth would work all right. That said, I wouldn't use a WWII on a RAS because of the tooth angle. I don't think you could expect to get jointer-quality rips on a RAS, especially with a crosscut blade. There are a lot of table saws and fences that will do what you want. With any of the combinations, though, careful setup and tuning are essential. I have gotten jointer quality rips with my current saw, a Jet Xacta with an Incra fence, and also with a Bosch 4000 and Ridgid 3612, with the stock fence and with a Vega. The machine counts but so does the way you use it.

[David DeCristoforo]

A) Obviously, a sliding table machine would be superior to a fixed table machine. But the cost factor needs to be considered. I think if the OP had put any of the "good" sliders on his list, the consensus would have been different.

B) A straight-lining "sled" is easy to make for a fixed table saw.

C) "Old iron" (Oliver, etc.) may be much superior to newer machines but will not address the OP's concern about glue quality cuts any better.

D) I am thinking that if one is building musical instruments and the only machine in the shop is a table saw, there must be a considerable amount of work being done with hand tools. With that in mind, a good quality jointer plane, with or without a shooting board would seem to be a staple item and would offer much better results than a table saw (regardless of the quality of the fence and/or blade). I would venture to suggest that anyone lacking the ability to joint the edge of a board with a hand plane is probably not going to have the necessary skill to build a guitar.

[Cary Falk]

I am a professional instrument maker. If you think you are going to make museum-quality joints directly from a tablesaw, you should reconsider. I use a tablesaw for the initial cutting, then go through a rigorous process until the joint is absolutely perfect. Then the joint is glued with hot hide, not a forgiving glue. BTW, I just ordered a Powermatic 2000, which is on sale for 15% off and only $6.50 shipping from Tools Plus. Good luck!

I built my first guitar a couple of years ago and had a similar experience. At some point, a good tool can go only so far. The rest is left up to the craftsman. I built my guitar on a 1970 Uni with a Shop Fox Classic fence. I don't recall using the table saw that much.

[John A langley]

Ditto Rick Fisher, Mini Max Slider The only way go.

[Simon Dupay]

[QUOTE=David DeCristoforo;1260236]
C) "Old iron" (Oliver, etc.) may be much superior to newer machines but will not address the OP's concern about glue quality cuts any better.

It might- they have bigger arbors,bearings and more cast iron for less vibration and overall better machining (not to say the uni or the pm 66 are bad saws just a different class of saw)

[Bob Borzelleri]

I use a Delta contractor's saw with Unifence and Forrest blade.

Wait! Did you steal my saw?. All seriousness aside, I have had the Delta contractor's saw with Unifence, Uniguard and Forrest blade and I've only considered replacing it with a cabinet saw twice. Once about 4 years ago when a friend bought a new Jet and about a month ago when I started spending more time in the shop.

On both occasions, I realized that there was no real world reason for swapping out saws. The only basis for even considering a new saw was that cabinet saws seem to be what woodworkers get when they grow up.

Then I realized that I was grown up and the Delta does everything I want a saw to do. End of story.

[Doug Shepard]

I love my PM66 but the UHMW faces on the Unifence left a bit to be desirred in terms of straightness. I used it for years with acceptable results but finally replaced the fence faces with phenolic baltic birch ply this summer. There's a noticable improvement in straightness which shows up in even fainter saw marks than what I was getting before. But I still think terms like glue-lin-rip are an oxymoron where table saws are concerned. I dont think it's possible to avoid cleanup with either a jointer or neander jointer plane.

[Peter Quinn]

A I would venture to suggest that anyone lacking the ability to joint the edge of a board with a hand plane is probably not going to have the necessary skill to build a guitar.

I'm glad somebody was willing to go there. I bought my #7 jointer plane for $40. Quick tune up, and it works. What is the longest piece of stock that must be jointed for an electric guitar? 22"? A bit less for a tele design, a bit more for some others, but not great lengths to be sure. And generally only two or maybe three board glue ups to get the width? This is not a lot of labor per instrument and is a miniscule amount of the total labor involved, so why does it matter how it is done and why the insistence on glue line ripping?

So if this is a custom operation, the TS point is mute, you could do it with a good skill saw, most of your labor is elsewhere. If this is a production shop, get a good jointer and move forward with whatever TS you choose. If this operation is a factory, for heavens sake buy a straight line rip saw and make those bodies by the thousands. With all that shaping, carving, surfacing, scraping and sanding to do, along with fitting the neck and wiring it, finishing it, man, it seems like gluing up blanks should be the least of your problems.

[Joe Spear]

I don't have a jointer, but I can get ripped edges that glue together very, very well right off cuts with a WW II.

[Narayan Nayar]

D) I am thinking that if one is building musical instruments and the only machine in the shop is a table saw, there must be a considerable amount of work being done with hand tools. With that in mind, a good quality jointer plane, with or without a shooting board would seem to be a staple item and would offer much better results than a table saw (regardless of the quality of the fence and/or blade). I would venture to suggest that anyone lacking the ability to joint the edge of a board with a hand plane is probably not going to have the necessary skill to build a guitar.

What David said. I understand that you'll probably be edge jointing 8/4 stock to make a body, but unless you're making a guitar with only right angled edges, I don't see how an accurate tablesaw is incredibly important for you. Nice to have, sure, but you'll get more use out of your 8/4 stock by using your bandsaw (assuming you have one) to rip and a jointer plane to prepare for glue-up (and glueups done on a edge freshly jointed with a handplane are going to be a far cleaner glueup than anything off a tablesaw or power jointer, no matter how accurate).

A General 650, Sawstop, or Delta Unisaw would do you just fine. All things being equal, you can make any of them as accurate as they need to be.

[Mark Warwick]

A I would venture to suggest that anyone lacking the ability to joint the edge of a board with a hand plane is probably not going to have the necessary skill to build a guitar.

I beg to differ. I'm not big on hand tools, i wish i was, and with a little practice it is a skill that can be learned. The OP was merely looking for the best table saw he could find, not have his skills questioned.

My hobby when i have time which isn't much these days is building violins. There is a lot of hand work involved,guitars not so much comparatively. However there are a lot of skills involved in guitar making that has little to do with the skill of using a hand tool that are more important to the sound of the guitar. There is a lot to learn, and if the OP is making them, he has learned far greater skills then handling a hand plane.

More on topic though, I have used both good and bad table saws and with a good one there is very little hand work needed, making the job easier and allowing a maker to spend time where it is most needed. I don't see a problem with that. If i had the money i'd put it on the delta uni saw or the PM 2000 and spend the time tuning it up to get a cut that would save me as much time in the long run as possible.

There are plenty of specialized tools for instrument makers that can be made or bought, it's like a different world in the shop, but a table saw would still be a very valuable piece of that puzzle.

It would be nice to see some of your work, i'd love to build instruments as a full time occupation, but it's nice to dream and look at what others are doing in the mean time.

[ian maybury]

Another vote here for the Incra TS-LS rip fence system. If you fit it with what they call their Wonder Fence joinery system you can also joint on a router table as it allows the precise offsetting of the halves of the split fence relative to the cutter.

As above a short sliding table saw from somebody like Hammer costs more than a cabinet saw, but is not too expensive, and would deliver some additional capabilities. You could fit an Incra fence and router table on the rip side so you would have the above precision positioning and jointing capability too.

You could even go for a small Hammer combination machine which would add a planer thicknesser and spindle moulder in a very compact footprint...

Lots of videos on the Hammer US website...

ian

[Nick Sorenson]

I beg to differ. I'm not big on hand tools, i wish i was, and with a little practice it is a skill that can be learned. The OP was merely looking for the best table saw he could find, not have his skills questioned.

My hobby when i have time which isn't much these days is building violins. There is a lot of hand work involved,guitars not so much comparatively. However there are a lot of skills involved in guitar making that has little to do with the skill of using a hand tool that are more important to the sound of the guitar. There is a lot to learn, and if the OP is making them, he has learned far greater skills then handling a hand plane.

More on topic though, I have used both good and bad table saws and with a good one there is very little hand work needed, making the job easier and allowing a maker to spend time where it is most needed. I don't see a problem with that. If i had the money i'd put it on the delta uni saw or the PM 2000 and spend the time tuning it up to get a cut that would save me as much time in the long run as possible.

There are plenty of specialized tools for instrument makers that can be made or bought, it's like a different world in the shop, but a table saw would still be a very valuable piece of that puzzle.

It would be nice to see some of your work, i'd love to build instruments as a full time occupation, but it's nice to dream and look at what others are doing in the mean time.

To any who question my woodworking abilities, they're questionable:) Definitely in their infant stages for sure. But I can create a process just fine. That's all I need to build a guitar. Here is what I'm building at the moment:
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/2608/dsc00071e.jpg (http://img156.imageshack.us/i/dsc00071e.jpg/)

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4061/dsc00081s.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/dsc00081s.jpg/)

The current table saw is a cheap $99 Lowes saw. Not an accurate saw at all. The boards were jointed on my 8x48 Old Iron Crescent jointer. It did a nice job but now the outfeed bed is having parrallel issues. I guess I'll be fixing it. I was hoping that if I got a quality saw, I'd be able to eliminate the jointer. I have had a reputable cabinet shop tell me that I don't need it if I have a good table saw. Also, I made the table on my DeWalt RAS and it's almost good enough to joint with. I didn't get the fence side dead straight. It's out (bowed in the center) by around 10 thousandths. I cut it with a straight edge and a bearing bit in a router. I think the straight edge bowed a little in the center when trimming the fence edge. But it's almost a good enough cut a joint on the RAS with a Mr. Sawdust (Forrest WWI Triple Chip 8") blade. It actually rips these 20" boards very easily and with a sanded quality cut.

But all that said, no I'm not a good wood worker. As you can see I can build a guitar body. I honestly wouldn't know how to joint a board on a hand plane. I can shave the bottom off of a door:) But no I wouldn't have a clue on how to get a dead straight edge with a hand plane.

But............. that's why I'm here. I'm 29 and an Electrical Engineer just learning the wood side of guitar building (ordered from CNC shops before). My dad was/is a finish carpenter (union/commercial) but I learned very little/not much when it comes to fine wood working. Hey I didn't go to work with him everyday. Nothing is learned by osmosis!

And............ woodworker or not, I've learned the right tools make things easier.

[scott spencer]

Nick - I'd like to suggest getting a book on the basics of wood dimensioning and joinery. It may also help with your TS selection. There are many acceptable methods for doing things, and certain steps that can be skipped if you know when it's acceptable to skip them, but I wouldn't assume that it's always acceptable to skip the face jointing and go straight to edge jointing with the TS...the folks at the cabinet shop are likely to know when to and when not to. It's easy to envision getting uneven edges even from a very accurate table saw with a proper blade if the face of the board is twisted, warped, or bowed. A jointer is the most efficient method of straightening the face and making an adjacent edge 90° to it, but certainly isn't the only way....it is however an important consideration somewhere in the process.

[Frank Drew]

If you want accuracy you might want to consider a used Oliver, Northfield or Tanny[Tannewitz] they have cast iron fences & made to last.

My recommendation, too.

[Brian Kincaid]

... I have had a reputable cabinet shop tell me that I don't need it if I have a good table saw...

A lot of cabinet shops don't need a jointer because they are not making glue-up panels. They are cutting plywood, ripping edging, etc.

Their perspective is different. Get the jointer straightened out. You will be lost without it.

-Brian

[John Coloccia]

Forgetting all the other arguments, a table saw is a poor choice for this application for two reasons. First, to get a glue ready cut the edge against the fence must have a glue ready cut. If not, the cut will drift as soon as the front of the board leaves the fence if there happens to be a high spot there.

Secondly, you will find that much of the available highend wood is not nescessarily rectangular. Often there is usable wood that has fantastic figure and grain but just barely fits the outline of your guitar. In this case it's hopeless to use a fence as the edge is angled, curved or whatever. I suppose you can make sleds and fixtures but it's not a great solution.

I've never used a slider so maybe that's a solution but a stock table saw and fence will limit you or cause a lot of extra work. I think my jet 12" combo jointer/planer is a really great fit for this kind of work (which is why it's in my shop).

I often still follow the jointer with a #7 handplane. I do a much better job on difficult or thin woods by hand than my jointer does. It's too hard to pass thin woods on the jointer without flexing them a bit (most are warped slightly anyhow which makes it harder) and the really brittle woods just chip. I've had no luck with lacewood on the jointer, for example. The handplane slices it like butter.

This is just my opinion but it's a perspective that no one else hand mentioned, especially the part about some of the wood being a shape other than rectangular. This is very normal in the flat top and archtop world.

[Prashun Patel]

Nick-
You have good skills. Nice wood!
I'm surprised nobody's suggested this approach:

Start with a budget. Then get the best saw you can afford. There are great contractor saws, there are great hybrids, there are great 'budget' cabinets, and there are great Rolls Royce's.

I do urge you to STRETCH your wallet as much as is reasonable. If you'd LIKE to spend $1000 but CAN spend $2000, then go for a higher grade saw. I promise you won't regret the nicer features, and increased power.

- shawn

[David DeCristoforo]

" The OP was merely looking for the best table saw he could find, not have his skills questioned. "

My intent was not to question anyone's abilities but simply to suggest that it's very easy to joint a board with a hand plane and that the table saw, under the best of circumstances is not the "go to" tool for edge jointing. Having said that, I should add that I glue up edges right off the table saw all the time with no issues to speak of. I would also point out that the OP was asking about a particular "short list" of saws, not "the best saw". If he had asked what was the "best saw he could find" I would have suggested the Martin T74...

[Heather Thompson]

Nick,

I have watched this thread with some interest, don't play and can nearly hum. :mad: A SMC member posted a thread earler this year about his "Texas Tele Project", the link I wil provide needs to be be viewed though the "Tools" link. This man has built a fine axe with the use of a custom ShopSmith, some may laugh, but I think this may work for you until you are are making for the stars. http://www.crenshawweb.com/texastele/texasteleproject.htm


Heather

[Mark Warwick]

My intent was not to question anyone's abilities but simply to suggest that it's very easy to joint a board with a hand plane and that the table saw, under the best of circumstances is not the "go to" tool for edge jointing

my apologies, text is so difficult, tone is lost... easy mistake to make.

[lowell holmes]

I get glue line cuts from my Delta CS with the Unifence and a Forrest Woodworker II blade. I don't make guitars though, so that you may be looking for something more.

I sometimes back up my cuts with a bevel-up handplane and a shooting board. Often, it is faster than the table saw.

[ian maybury]

It's maybe worth saying that a good friend of mine with a very successful business doing high end furniture and kitchens does not have a jointer, and says he would not dream of using one.

He joints off his sliding table panel saw. (Italian made, but i can't remember the make) When he does plane he uses a four sided planing machine that hits all four sides simultaneously.

I guess the point is that there's a world of a difference between what you can do on a good industrial quality sliding table panel saw fitted with a top quality blade, and a budget unit with a dodgy blade, a tiny table and a short and wobbly fence....

ian

[Joe Mioux]

I am just reading your subject line.

I think the delta and pm are fine. Although you might want to look at the PM 2000 rather than the pm 66. I have a Saw Stop and am thoroughly pleased with its performance. Obviously, I have a bias for the Saw Stop and consider it the best saw currently be produced. A nice purchasing feature of a SS is that you do not have to buy their fence. You can just buy the saw and add an aftermarket fence. This isn't to suggest that their is any flaw in the SS's fence, its just an option.

good luck
joe

[Kent A Bathurst]

I am just reading your subject line.

I think the delta and pm are fine. Although you might want to look at the PM 2000 rather than the pm 66. I have a Saw Stop and am thoroughly pleased with its performance. Obviously, I have a bias for the Saw Stop and consider it the best saw currently be produced. A nice purchasing feature of a SS is that you do not have to buy their fence. You can just buy the saw and add an aftermarket fence. This isn't to suggest that their is any flaw in the SS's fence, its just an option.

good luck
joe

Joe - wow - you might be the first rational owner of a SS that I have read: " delta and pm are fine". You were supposed to drink the kool-aid that came with the saw.;)

[Ben West]

I think most would agree that the "top end" cabinet saws include the SawStop, PM2000, and new Unisaw. There certainly are others, including perhaps the Laguna TS, but the SS, PM, and Uni seem to dominate this market niche. All three are capable of being more accurate than you are.

Having said that, it's a good time to buy the PM2000, as Powermatic has a 15% off sale upcoming. I already have a preorder in at Tools Plus for the PM2000 myself.

You said in your original post that money wasn't an object, and that you wanted the best saw you can buy. And, I'm assuming your real interest is in a cabinet saw, not a slider. Given that, I'd narrow my search to these 3 models. If the PM2000 is the one you pick, now is a great time to buy.

[Nick Sorenson]

" The OP was merely looking for the best table saw he could find, not have his skills questioned. "

My intent was not to question anyone's abilities but simply to suggest that it's very easy to joint a board with a hand plane and that the table saw, under the best of circumstances is not the "go to" tool for edge jointing. Having said that, I should add that I glue up edges right off the table saw all the time with no issues to speak of. I would also point out that the OP was asking about a particular "short list" of saws, not "the best saw". If he had asked what was the "best saw he could find" I would have suggested the Martin T74...


Thanks David,
I took your post as what you just said, it wasn't something I took it as a question of my skill. I wanted to be honest and state, I'm not the greatest wood worker. I'm learning.

and no, I honestly couldn't joint using a hand plane. I need to get some good video/reading material and start learning the tricks of the trade. Thanks to everyone on the forum. I am almost convinced at this point that I don't need a cabinet saw. But at the same time I realize that it'll come in real handy for future projects. I'd like to build amp cabinets as I grow in my skill level.

Seems like the general consensus is a cabinet saw (a good one) is the table saw to own.
Thanks for your input!!

[Jason White]

My Grizzly G1023SLW was the best cabinet saw that I could buy.

Still is, actually! ;)

Jason


I run a shop building guitars. I need a very accurate table saw. I assume the fence is going to be as much a part of this as the saw.

I will not need to cart the saw around. It will be in shop.

I'd like to use it as a jointer. I'm guessing this means that the fence must be dead straight.

I checked out a saw with a Biesemeyer Fence tonight and I noticed the fence had a board screwed to the fence (Blade side) and laminate to cover the screws. The fence was probably .010" - .020" from straight in places. We ripped a few boards and of course the joints were not good enough for glue.

So that leads me to my question. Can the fence be fixed to dead straight and how hard is it?

I have a few saws I'm considering and I'd like to add a few more to the list if I should. I'm new and don't know much.

I do know I want VERY accurate tools. I have an old DeWalt Radial Arm Saw and it is one of the best. It's taught me that great build quality in a tool makes life much easier in wood working.

So.... I only want to buy one saw for the next 20 years. I don't need to cart it around. I run a shop.

I am not concerned as much about how much (of course cost hurts but I'm more concerned with the quality of the cut).

What should I buy?

So far I've considered the following:
-PM 65
-PM 66
-Delta Unisaw
-Ridgid
-Bosch (the one that collapses)

[Peter Aeschliman]

My layman perspective is that your TS is much less important than your jointer in this situation.

If your jointer sucks, spend the funds you have on a jointer and a planer (or a nice combo machine) first. Then if/when you have the money, look at upgrading your TS. The TS is an important tool, but if I had to choose between having a top of the line Jointer/Planer combo and an average cabinet saw, vs a top of the line cabinet saw and an average Jointer/Planer, I'd chose the top of the line Jointer/Planer.

I'd also look into getting one with a helical cutter head. If you have $3k to spend, look at the Jet 12" Jointer Planer with Helical head. If you have $4k to spend, look at the Hammer A3 31 (I think it's around $4k but their website is very salesy so you have to give them your contact info to see the price, then the sales people start calling you!).

Anyway, my point is that an average table saw and a high end jointer and planer will pretty much solve your problems.

[Kevin Groenke]

It's maybe worth saying that a good friend of mine with a very successful business doing high end furniture and kitchens does not have a jointer, and says he would not dream of using one.

He joints off his sliding table panel saw. (Italian made, but i can't remember the make) When he does plane he uses a four sided planing machine that hits all four sides simultaneously.

I guess the point is that there's a world of a difference between what you can do on a good industrial quality sliding table panel saw fitted with a top quality blade, and a budget unit with a dodgy blade, a tiny table and a short and wobbly fence....

ian

A 4 sided planer (or molder) will not joint a board: noodle in --- noodle out. You need a jointer, a sliding saw or a decent tablesaw with a straight-lining jig and a good, sharp rip blade to make a glue-ready edges (or a jointer plane, a jig for a router, a CNC router, etc. many means to the end depending on equipment available).

Nick, IMO you already have the best tool for the job. You and that old Cresent jointer just need to spend some quality time together to work out your issues. When tuned, it will prepare your edges more easily and relaibly than ANY tablesaw. Once it's set up properly, anybody should be able to get a straight, smooth, square edge out of it with minimal training or drama.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Nick, IMO you already have the best tool for the job. You and that old Cresent jointer just need to spend some quality time together to work out your issues. When tuned, it will prepare your edges more easily and relaibly than ANY tablesaw. Once it's set up properly, anybody should be able to get a straight, smooth, square edge out of it with minimal training or drama."

DITTO+1000! I totally missed that. I must be getting old! You have a Crescent jointer? And you want to do your jointing on your table saw? Um... er... uh... well... ah... I'm at a loss for words...

[Greg Peterson]

Nick - It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian.

You might want to check with the local luthiers or go to a luthiers forum to find out what tools they use. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that their inventory of tools, jigs and accessories will be completely different than the cabinet makers shop.

Stewart-MacDonald is a pretty place to look around and see what some of the tools of the trade are.

The strat body looks good. Nice work on the bevels.

[Denny Rice]

Joe - wow - you might be the first rational owner of a SS that I have read: " delta and pm are fine". You were supposed to drink the kool-aid that came with the saw.;)

What kind of Kool-Aid comes with that fancy SS table saw? :eek:

[Joe Jensen]

There is a really nice looking Felder K700 51" sliding table saw on ebay. Bid at $3100 with a day to go.

[Kent A Bathurst]

What kind of Kool-Aid comes with that fancy SS table saw? :eek:

Denny - reference to jim jones cult and the kool-aid they drank in blind obedience.

Also - see where Shanny just retired - there's another jersey number for the rafters at the Joe, eh?

[Joe Mioux]

What kind of Kool-Aid comes with that fancy SS table saw? :eek:

I don't drink (SS) Kool-Aid. :rolleyes:

just take a pragmatic approach a tool's capabilities, my capabilities and look at the whole picture of this hobby. Part of the hobby is outfitting a shop with cool tools. -- its all part of the fun.

[Dan Roberts]

Dear Nick

I have been a professional guitarmaker for well over 20 years. I started with Flatiron Banjo and Mandolin Co. Then worked my way up to rear plant production manager at Gibson where I was in charge of everything from resaw and parts production to handing the finish department a complete white wood guitar. Then for 17 years was production manager, archtop builder, repairman and designer for Santa Cruz Guitar Company. I currently work for myself building. Now first off I am an acoustic guitar builder, but I've had a series of apprentices from Sweden and Norway who came to my shop to do apprenticeships and built electrics as well as acoustics under my tutelage as well as on their own.

I have a simple Delta Contractors saw with a couple good blades, and a link belt and 2 hp Baldor motor I bought. It is fabulous for anything a guitarmaker needs to do. Truly any decent tablesaw will do for a guitarmaker... we don't do a lot of straight lines do we? LOL.

Anyway... as many other members say, your jointer is your friend for a guitarmaker. I have seen really good guitarmakers completely unable to replace the blades in a jointer and then get it set up properly to get a perfect glue joint. This may be part of the solution.

Most of what I have to say has already been said but there are a few perspectives I can offer as a longtime guitarmaker that may offer you a good perspective.

People who buy guitars are often like packrats. They are attracted to very very shiny things. LOL. No offense intended. They like to be able to put their makeup on or adjust their tie in the reflection in your lacquer. If your joints aren't perfect the lacquer or whatever finish you use will sink down and really point out your failures. Also guitarmakers use some of the most spectacular woods available, wildly figured Koa, figured Brazilian Rosewood, Flamed european maple, quilted mahogany and bigleaf maple etc. To properly joint these woods, a helical head is really nice. They shear as they cut and that means you get less or no chipout on highly figured woods. If you have a good jointer think about getting a Byrd helical head made for your jointer. Spend some of what you would have on the high dollar tablesaw and get that $400.00 head. Put it in yourself. You will learn a lot. Then set the outfeed table slightly lower than the head. You will have a short snipe at the end of the cut. Bring up the rear table little by little and take test cuts. The snipe will get longer... moving in length towards the center of the board. If you are doing a bookmatch, do them both at once. When you hold them up to the light you will find that whatever imperfections you have are doubled this way and you can really dial it in. Eventually you will get a perfect joint. If you start to get a "sprung" joint meaning you see light in the middle you've gone too far. Fettling a piece of equipment till it works perfectly will help you gain the skill you will need to be a great guitarmaker.

You will need a tablesaw... you just don't need a really expensive one, and a jointer and the bandsaw will be the most used pieces of equipment in your guitarshop almost gauranteed. With a good 12" disc/ 6X48" sander a quick 3rd place. Learning good hand tool skills is essential to being a good woodworker of any kind. I worked with a Japanese temple builder for a while in the Santa Cruz mountains, and I felttled his machinery in exchange for all the help I got from him. It was a great trade for both of us. If you try this and it doesn't work feel free to give me a call for help. (406)431-9011. Good luck!

dan

[John Coloccia]

I'll just add one more tool to the list of really great guitar building tools. Wagner Saf-T Planer. You wouldn't believe how useful this thing is for operations such as:

-planing headstock taper
-planing taper on back of the neck
-rough thicknessing sides
-quickly getting a parallel surface (i.e. get the bottom of the heel nice and flat relative to the finger board)
-establishing an even thickness at the edge of an arched top and back (learned that one from Benedetto's videos....GREAT videos, btw)
-making radius sanding blocks (pass the block through with the drill press bed at an angle)

I can probably think of more :D

Dan: thanks for the tip on the helical heads. I've been hesitating to buy one because I wasn't sure if it would help enough with figured woods to be worth it, or if I'd still have to follow up with a hand plane to get it perfect. Right now, I end up doing a little touch up with a jointer plane on practically every top/back to get what I'd consider an instrument quality joint. Can you go right from jointer to glue up most of the time with the helical head?

[Darrin Davis]

I've used many cabinet saws and now that I have a sawstop I cannot imagine using any other. Forget the stopping capabilities of the saw, I would buy it just for the quality of the machine. It's a giant. the trunions on the machine make my old Delta cabinet saw seem cheap. Too bad they don't make it without the stop capabilities for those who are not interested in that part of the saw. They just want a good quality cabinet saw.

[Vic Damone]

I can hold down some simple key changes but I'm not a Guitarist. My son is and there are many guitars in our home. During a visit to Sylvan Music in Santa Cruz I asked to play one of Richard Hoover/Dan Roberts' f holed arch tops. As a non player let me just say Holly Moley, very nice!

I am/was an Upright Bass player and I'm down to two instruments. I borrowed one of Mr. Schnitzer's LaScala Hybrids from a friend while in Chicago for a four day stint. Aside from it being the loudest and most comfortable instrument I've ever played, the piz muah between F and Ab on the E string was simply stunning. I can't wait to try a fully carved piece.

Your very fortunate to have been responded by two incredibly gifted instrument builders. IMO the selection of material, construction technique and experience required to produce instruments at this level is rare. An instrument that speaks with its own singular voice is the highest order of the use of wood. I'm not talking about a vintage Fender made with a router.

Dan Roberts and Arnold Schnitzer are two masters at their craft. I've never meet them personally but I know and have touched their work and I'm literally blown away that they even frequent this site.

We pay for these instruments but they're only ours for a little while, as we leave, they play on.

[Dan Roberts]

Well that is certainly a wonderful testimonial! Thanks and I'm glad you enjoyed that archtop! AS far as the helical heads go, on archtops I always had to use a handplane to get the joint perfect before I got my General helical head jointer. The byrd head has even more shear angle to it... General even offers the Byrd head as an option now, but they didn't when I got mine. Even with the General helical head though if I am careful I can go directly to a glue joint now without handplaning, and if I am not careful to keep a centerline reference marked on the endgrain I can loose the centerline very easily. Of course I can find it with a bit of time but I've had many people ask if I'm using one piece tops. Backs are easier to tell since the bookmatch is much more obvious (except mahogany can be tough to tell as well.) I highly recommend it and if you already have a decent jointer I'd just get the byrd head.

Of course I had missed that part where you explained that you have a Crescent with the tables out of parallel, but usually that can be shimmed to be near perfect again. Sometimes just taking it apart and checking the dovetail is enough... burrs or other issues can often be removed without too much trouble. If the casting has warped that's a tougher problem but not likely on that machine either. Good luck!

[Arnold E Schnitzer]

I just want to say that my new PM 2000 arrived today, and I can't imagine ever needing a better tablesaw. At $1960 delivered, I think it was a steal. As far as making the best possible joints, I believe a saw is just the beginning. I go from there to the jointer, to a jointer plane, then chalk-fit with a small block plane and scrapers until perfect. Of course I am making joints that are about 4' long and 2" thick, and the wood is usually wedge cut, so it is not your ordinary glue-up. Vic, thanks for the kind words. BTW, did you know I used to back up the actual Vic Damone?

[Dan Roberts]

Sounds like a great saw Arnold. We had a powermatic at Gibson Montana Division and it was a great saw. I'm piqued now I am going to go see your website if I can find it and see what you do! Good luck with your Powermatic!

--d

[Vic Damone]

I just want to say that my new PM 2000 arrived today, and I can't imagine ever needing a better tablesaw. At $1960 delivered, I think it was a steal. As far as making the best possible joints, I believe a saw is just the beginning. I go from there to the jointer, to a jointer plane, then chalk-fit with a small block plane and scrapers until perfect. Of course I am making joints that are about 4' long and 2" thick, and the wood is usually wedge cut, so it is not your ordinary glue-up. Vic, thanks for the kind words. BTW, did you know I used to back up the actual Vic Damone?

Did you record with him? Or with anybody, I'd like to hear your playing. Congratulations on the new tool.

[John Harden]

I just want to say that my new PM 2000 arrived today, and I can't imagine ever needing a better tablesaw. At $1960 delivered, I think it was a steal. As far as making the best possible joints, I believe a saw is just the beginning. I go from there to the jointer, to a jointer plane, then chalk-fit with a small block plane and scrapers until perfect. Of course I am making joints that are about 4' long and 2" thick, and the wood is usually wedge cut, so it is not your ordinary glue-up. Vic, thanks for the kind words. BTW, did you know I used to back up the actual Vic Damone?

As an owner of a Euro slider, I second this opinion. A slider will make an amazingly clean straight line rip that can be used for a glue joint, but even still, if you want the best joint you can get, you need to pick up a jointer plane.

We all have our preferences in table saws, jointers, etc., but one truth is that for final fitting of many joints, you need to break out the hand tools.

I have a LN #7 and 7 1/2 and use them both quite a lot. A low angle jack works well too for those smaller boards. I think that's actually my favorite hand plane aside from a block.

Regards,

John

[Joe Pack]

The 3hp SawStop is more than enough for 8/4 work. Even dense exotics do not slow it down. 5hp would be great, but, in my simple opinion, not necessary unless it would be run hours each day. Not worth the added expense.

Pair this with an Incra fence system and repeatable precision cutting is a breeze.

One humble opinion.


(My wife knew she married 'Mr. Right,' but she didn't know his first name was Always!):D

[Vic Damone]

The 3hp SawStop is more than enough for 8/4 work. Even dense exotics do not slow it down. 5hp would be great, but, in my simple opinion, not necessary unless it would be run hours each day. Not worth the added expense.

Pair this with an Incra fence system and repeatable precision cutting is a breeze.

One humble opinion.


(My wife knew she married 'Mr. Right,' but she didn't know his first name was Always!):D

+1
I'd like to replace my contractor saw with one of these someday. The dust collection looks excellent, it's smaller, and the mobil base seems like it would work well. I have an Incra fence and it is terrific. Easily zeroed to blade changes, no more knuckle tapping, and the tape measure is history, a real time saver.

[Tim Allaire]

TS75, CT22 and MTF3 . nough, said.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

TS75, CT22 and MTF3 . nough, said.


I dont know about "nough said". What are those?

[Mark Warwick]

TS75, CT22 and MTF3 . nough, said.

Surely you Jest...

I know people like their festool but... Well no need to go there. Was a good joke though

[Mike Tubbs]

This is the case of too much advice. To answer your question based on it's original content and the machines you picked, I would go with the Unisaw.

[Tim Allaire]

Surely you Jest...

I know people like their festool but... Well no need to go there. Was a good joke though



No joke...I would take Festool over any Ridgid, Bosch, Delta or Jet and then I might take a PM and up to more industrial grade TS. Festool has replaced my unisaw.

[Nick Sorenson]

Well after all this... I ended up not buying a table saw at all.

My goal was to replace my jointer. Really I've sort of done it with my radial arm saw. Crazy... but it works. It's not giving me a no air gap joint on my 8/4 Alder but it's getting me a VERY close to that spring joint. And with good clamping pressure it's giving me a finished quality joint that looks every bit as good as my jointer. It's perfect in my opinion. Really that's great anyways because I didn't have room for a big powermatic as much as I'd love one.

So, Mr. Sawdust table and blade, old DeWalt MBF and I'm getting nice joints.

I know it's not the proper way to joint but it is working great!

At 3/4 HP it's not quite a ripping saw, but with the right blade it'll get the job done until I get more space.

by the way the Forrest WWI Mr. Sawdust blade leaves a glass smooth edge. It's so perfect I can't believe it. I'm using featherboards to keep the pressure good and tight to the fence on infeed and outfeed. I have the back side of the blade out just a hair from the board in Outrip mode.