Ripping 12/4 Any tips??? Blade Recommendation??

[heath madsen]

First Post Here --- Just found ya'll --- Great forums.

Anyway - I have a project that requires ripping some 12/4 red oak into 2" by 3" x 6' long boards. Typically i don't rip more than 5/4 material. Can anyone give some pointers?

I have a 3hp cabinet saw. I can clear 3.25" at the max setting, so i think this will work. The saw is a 12" saw, but i only use 10" blades to date.

Will a general purpose blade like a WWII handle the 12/4 material? I cant find any posts where people have used this blade for something this thick. Im not sure if it will burn it or not. Whats the best compromise for clean edge and rip capacity for hardwoods? How many are using the 30Tooth WWII for thick stock rips?

Any experience would be helpful. I was given a 24T Full Kerf rip blade - looks like a Freud, but its old and has a bunch of rust and im a bit hesitant to use it.

Considering my saw what would you use for clean edge / rip capacity?

Thanks

[John Harden]

Best blade for ripping, hands down is a rip blade. Having said that, you're talking to a guy who leaves his Forrest WWII installed for everything, including ripping.

I had to rip a 16/4 mahogany beam down on my cabinet saw and didn't bother with a rip blade, but that was mahogany. Red oak is a lot harder and you'll likely get a lot of burning with a combo blade unless you keep the feed rate up and don't ever hesitate. It will also take a lot more feed pressure to work the teeth through that hard wood.

Is the rusted Freud a carbide tipped blade? If so, you might clean it up and test it out on some hardwood scraps.

If you need to go buy a rip blade, they are generally pretty inexpensive. I bet you could find a serviceable on at your local Sears or Home Depot. Rip blades are pretty forgiving. You don't need Forrest quality unless you do it A LOT.

That's my .02

EDIT - As far as tips, plan it all out, use featherboards to keep it tight against the fence. Make sure you have decent toe out on your rip fence (or at least it's straight and not toed in), and try not to stop once moving. Wherever you stop, you'll get burning from friction. Use an outfeed support so it won't tip up at the end of the cut and use a good, solid push stick.

Regards,

John

[Rod Sheridan]

Rip blade without question, full kerf, with chip limiters.

As John indicated rip blades aren't that expensive.

Get a quality one and keep it for the rest of your life.

Make sure you have a splitter or riving knife, and a saw guard.

Regards, Rod.

[heath madsen]

Rod - got a reasonable recommendation?

[Sean Hughto]

I use the WW2 30T ripping blade. I recommend it highly. You'll need a slow feed rate at 12/4, of course. You might also consider a band saw, if you have one.

[dan sherman]

I would recommend A Freud LM72R (10" 24 teeth), you can pick it up in the following places;
Sears ~$80.
Woodcraft ~$60
Rockler ~$60
online

[heath madsen]

saw that one at rockler the other day. was hoping i could get away with something a bit more versatile.

[John Harden]

One other thing. Thick hardwoods are more prone to having internal stresses than thinner stock, depending on how it was dried. It's pretty common to have them move significantly after being cut. Sometimes, it might even begin to move while you're cutting it resulting in the kerf being pinched closed, which may lead to kickback. A riving knife as Rod recommended, or a splitter will help guard against this.

If you have adequate stock, I'd recommend cutting them significantly oversized in width and thickness, then allowing them to settle for at least a few days or even a week. Chances are good that you'll see some movement, that you can then machine out.

Regards,

John

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod - got a reasonable recommendation?


FS Tools L02250...............Rod.

[glenn bradley]

I would use a bandsaw as well. That being said, I run Freud and Lietz 24T blades for ripping. Red oak is prone to burning and your lengths could give you some control issues that may lead to blade marks with any blade. The Freud industrial with the red coating would be my druthers if it were me. I'm assuming you need a 1" arbor hole(?). LM72 series seems appropriate. Make sure you have an adequate splitter and a plan to deal with stress release on thicker lumber ;-)

[Gary Herrmann]

If it's rough lumber, definitely go with the bandsaw.

[Dave Novak]

I don't get all the bandsaw recomendations. He's got a 12" 3HP tablesaw. Buy a 12" rip blade and cut it up. What's the big deal?

[scott spencer]

I use the WW2 30T ripping blade. I recommend it highly. You'll need a slow feed rate at 12/4, of course. You might also consider a band saw, if you have one.

This is a very clean cutting blade by rip blade standards...it's really a 30T general purpose blade that happens to rip fairly efficiently in thicker material....great blade IMHO. It's not ideal of 12/4" material but will handle it better than a 40T WWII, will leave a cleaner edge than a 24T blade, plus can be used for general purpose stuff when you're done.

If you choose to stick with a standard FTG bulk ripper, the Freud LM72, Infinity 010-024, DeWalt/Delta 7642, or Amana RB1020 are excellent examples. You'll get efficient glue ready cuts.

[Paul Ryan]

I don't get all the bandsaw recomendations. He's got a 12" 3HP tablesaw. Buy a 12" rip blade and cut it up. What's the big deal?

I completly agree, now we are afraid to rip wood that is a little thicker on our tablesaws, whats next. Maybe we should wear skirts around the wood shop too instead of aprons.

Last weekend I ripped a bunch of sticks out of 10/4 red oak, that had been "hit or miss" planed, on my 3hp saw with a 50 tooth combo blade in. I was to lazy to put in the rip blade. No problem, no burining. Just alittle slower feed rate, you can only push the wood through so fast. The blade will only cut so fast you can feel it. I would not be afraid to do that with material 1/2 thicker.

[Sean Hughto]

I don't know that anyone said it's a big deal. I personally mentioned a bandsaw for several reasons:

1. If he already has one, he wouldn't need to buy a new TS rip blade - i.e., save money.

2. As others have said, thicker wood can be more reactive when cut - making it more likely to kickback or just a pain in the butt if it seizes on the splitter for example. With a bandsaw, there is absolutely no risk of kickback and less chance of binding.

3. It cuts a narrower kerf which saves material and creates less dust.

The downside, of course, is that in order to use a bandsaw, apparently one needs to don a skirt, which might be okay if you're a female or scottish woodworker, but for most of us presents a problem as we don't have any in our closets. Maybe Rockler and Woodcraft should come up with some "bandsaw skirts" to offer us?

[Myk Rian]

I just bought a Freud 10" 24 tooth Diablo rip blade today. That blade is sweet.
And for $28 at HoPo is a great deal. Made in Italy.
http://www.freud-tools.com/freuddiabrip.html

[heath madsen]

thanks for all the replys. please keep them coming.

the stock is s2s sl1e and is ~ $9.50/ board ft for 12/4. pricing comments welcome.

i do not have a bandsaw capable of this yet. my brother got that when my dad devided the tools.

the TS came to me with a junk irwin blade that i have disposed of after making one cut. it was horridly dull and not worthy of resharpening. im sure that was my brothers doing. this leaves me with the rusty 24T rip blade and several 72-80 tooth crosscut blades. i did put on the rusty 24 (after a light hit of the wire wheel) and it cut some mdf and ply pretty well. maybe ill hit it with some naval jelly to really clean it up?!?

the ts was not in good shape when i got it. in fact my couisn who helped me with the heavy lifting said i was wasting my time. oh well - it was free. i knocked off all the rust, sucked out the cobwels and tumble weeds. new belts. reworked the fence and now its working fine.

i obviously need a good general purpose blade but i may go ahead and get the rip blade also.

i certainly dont have $$$ in the budget for new skirts.

[Larry Fox]

I don't get all the bandsaw recomendations. He's got a 12" 3HP tablesaw. Buy a 12" rip blade and cut it up. What's the big deal?

+1 on this.

[John Harden]

i certainly dont have $$$ in the budget for new skirts.

Then, I'd suggest wearing an old skirt when you cut up the lumber......:D

Sorry man, couldn't resist.

Regards,

John

[Robert Reece]

Red Oak 12/4, I pay $7/bd ft.

[Joe Wiliams]

I completly agree, now we are afraid to rip wood that is a little thicker on our tablesaws, whats next. Maybe we should wear skirts around the wood shop too instead of aprons. ...
There is an estate sale in the Deal and Discounts section that has a large selection of tools & dresses:D

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/gms/1463755319.html

[Peter Quinn]

I am wondering why you need to rip 12/4 into 2"X3"'s any way? At that point I'm just buying 8/4" and pulling off 3" rips, which is a bit easier in my mind, unless you need 3" grain QS, in which case I'm buying 8/4 QS. The only way I'm going up a size is if I need pieces wider than I can get from thinner stock. Just wondering why you are resawing to those dimensions?

In any event, Id use a rip blade for sure, probably a 12" rip blade on a 12" saw. Brand? Almost any rip blade should do, Amana Euro Rip is my favorite. 3HP isn't huge for a 12" saw, so it might be easier to rip with the blade a bit more than half way into the stock and flip the board 180 degrees then finish the cut, especially if this stuff hasn't been flattened yet. Definitely joint one edge to reference the fence.

Your probably already aware of this but the chances for this wood moving as you rip are better than slim for sure, and you will be ripping with the blade nearly full up if you don't rip and flip with only two inches to the fence. The blade will be HIGHER than the fence, and that had ought to at least get your focus and attention. My point is if you need 2", you had better start at least 2 3/8" wide if you plan to flatten at all.

PS: I would use my BS personally for reasons mentioned above ie: Safer, less waste, cheaper rip blades, and HIGHER FEED RATE. Plus less sawdust goes up my skirt that way which keeps my panties from getting in a bunch. Its not really interesting until it reaches 16/4 anyway.:D

[Gary Herrmann]

I saw a friend stop a 3 hp cabinet saw with rough 12/4 stock. I was very impressed. My skirt became damp. When I was ripping rough 16/4 cherry in my shop, I elected to use the BS to cut down on skirt dry cleaning bills.

[Todd Reinbold]

Just curious... but don't 12" saw blades have a 1" arbor, and 10" saw blades have a 5/8" arbor?

[Jack Camillo]

I don't get all the bandsaw recomendations. He's got a 12" 3HP tablesaw. Buy a 12" rip blade and cut it up. What's the big deal?

+1
table saw will give a better resultant board in this scenario

[heath madsen]

well - the actual diminsion of the base is 2 1/4 x 3. im hoping i can get some 10/4 to machine and land at 2.25, but they didnt have that last time in so thus the 12/4. im building arts and crafts type coat trees. 2" square vertical column with the base 2.25 x 3" in a x pattern. the two "legs" will be joined by dadoing each 50% and assembling into the cross.

[heath madsen]

Just curious... but don't 12" saw blades have a 1" arbor, and 10" saw blades have a 5/8" arbor?

don't know about that - this is a 12" saw with a 5/8" arbor. could be my dad ordered it that way in 1990. It does say "12 table saw" on the unit. brand = Seco. used to be a great saw and im trying to make it that way again. He used to make plantation shutters with it back when i was in HS. Many days did i spend with sand paper in my hand when id rather be out chasing skirts.

[John Harden]

Just curious... but don't 12" saw blades have a 1" arbor, and 10" saw blades have a 5/8" arbor?

Depends on the make and model. Euro stuff often has 30mm, which is around 1". MM uses 5/8" for their U.S imports.

5/8" is on the low side for a blade that large.

Regards,

John

[Keith Westfall]

(http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/gms/1463755319.html)http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv...463755319.html (http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/gms/1463755319.html)


Diffidently the end of an era there...

kind of sad.

[Peter Quinn]

well - the actual diminsion of the base is 2 1/4 x 3. im hoping i can get some 10/4 to machine and land at 2.25, but they didnt have that last time in so thus the 12/4. im building arts and crafts type coat trees. 2" square vertical column with the base 2.25 x 3" in a x pattern. the two "legs" will be joined by dadoing each 50% and assembling into the cross.

I get it. I like using a rip blade for most ripping operations, but in a pinch a good general purpose blade will get the job done, particularly if you rip and flip in two passes. That way you are really only ripping 6/4 which is easy enough for most combo blades. I had only a WWII 40TH when I got started, and it did everything. If money is an issue don't hesitate to buy a good combo blade and go for it, just might have to feed a bit slower.

[scott spencer]

...i obviously need a good general purpose blade but i may go ahead and get the rip blade also....

All the more reason to get the 30T WWII...it's pretty close to being both.

[Tony Bilello]

I can understand the use of bandsaws for certain applications but not for saving wood.
Here is what I come up with:
I can make a cut on my table saw and go straight to glue-up and only lose the 1/8" saw kerf.
Having said that, lets move to the bandsaw. Lets say the typical kerf of a bandsaw is 1/16". That leaves us with another 1/16" to spare. One sixteenth of an inch equals 2/32". That means that you guys can make a 5 foot long cut without wandering more tha 1/32" from either side of the center line and still have wood left over to run through a joiner on both cut edges and have the final board edges parallel and ready for glue-up.
Am I missing something?

[Sean Hughto]

Yeah, I think you are missing a few things.

First, a typical bandsaw blade is no where near 1/16th of an inch thick. It's less than 1/32, in fact.

Second, with a sell set up saw and a fence, one should be able to saw a straight line with a bandsaw. And if your feed rate is reasonable, the edge, while not glue ready, doesn't need very much work to eliminate the saw marks.

Third, in my experience, you overestimate the TS in that, the thicker the stock, the more difficult it is to produce a glue ready edge right off the saw - burning often happens on at least one of the sides, and hesitations or reactions in the wood create blade scores that need to be cleaned up. In other words, you lose more than the 1/8th kerf with a TS in many thick stock rips.

[Larry Rasmussen]

For my 10" saw a 3/32 Freud LU87R010 rip blade does an excellent job. I think it was about $42. I think traditionally recommendations would be tending to full Kerf blades for heavier work to avoid deflection. In my limited experience as a hobbiest the above choice showed no such tendancy. Frankly I had a hard time believing such and inexpensive blade would perform this well being a verteran of several $80 to $100 blade puchases over the years including Frued's earlier Glue Line Rip. Another advantage with the LU87 is that you could hopefully afford a 12" blade.

Food for thought not meant to be definitive for the situation.

Regards,
Larry Rasmussen,
Seattle

[Charles McCracken]

Heath,

Welcome to the group! For the stock you are ripping I recommend a dedicated thick stock rip blade which is typically flat grind and less that 24T for a 10". The Freud version is the LM71 series:
http://www.freudtools.com/p-37-thick-stock-ripbr-nbsp.aspx
I know that it's not the versatility you wanted but I am confident you'll be happier and the results will be much better than with a blade with more teeth and/or ATB grind.

[Don Jarvie]

A new sharp blade and 3hp with a saw that is setup right should cut most anything.

Slow consistant feed rate and you should have no problem.

[Prashun Patel]

saw that one at rockler the other day. was hoping i could get away with something a bit more versatile.

'versatile' = combination or general purpose blade. These do a 'great' job at crosscutting, and a 'good' job at ripping. The best combo/general blades are reputed to be the Forest WWII and the Freud Fusion.

However, they rip best at stock that's less than 1 1/2 inches. When you get up into the whoa mother range, you really need a dedicated ripping blade. Anything north of 30 teeth is gonna burn.

That being said, if this is a one-off thing you're doing, get a $13 Oldham ripping blade from HD. It'll work fine for a couple jobs (albeit with a cleanup on the jointer after), but won't hold it's ability for as long as the better blades...

[Myk Rian]

I've been using a Freud Diablo 24t ripping blade. Thin kerf and does a great job resawing 3". I'll make one cut, turn the stock over to make the next, then finish up on the band saw.

[heath madsen]

update:

i got the 30 tooth woodworker II in full kerf. It does cut the 12/4 red oak but requires slow feeding and i get very minor burns here and there. sands out easily enough. has a very nice cut to it. 8/4 is no problem at all and is glue line smooth. much better than my old 24t rip blade. also is remarkably good on cross cuts including sheet goods. not perfect mind you but nearly so.

in all im very satisfied as a all around blade. seems the 40 toot gets all the press, but the 30 is wonderful if you tend to the thicker material.

im interested to try some cherry in 8/4 and see if it burns.

btw my coat trees came out great. ill try to post pics soon. gotta get to the shop.