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Stefan Antwarg
09-29-2004, 9:50 PM
This afternoon was a pretty frustrating time for me. I have this tree which has completly bent over my driveway. It has bent all the way to being parallel with the ground. With all this rain it almost touches the ground. So, it's been like this for several months. It's still alive and keeps growing. I decided it's about time to cut it down. It's not too big around so I figured this would be a great first tree to cut down.

So I get my chainsaw out of the shed and noticed some rust where the bar goes in. I guess the shed is a poor place to keep a chainsaw. Anyway, being the novice chainsaw user that I am, I never did the recommended maintenance last spring - which was the last time I used it. So, I get out my gas/oil mixture. Yes, it has been sitting in there since last spring. I fill her up and attempt to start it - surprise, I couldn't get it to start. I emptied the gas (since I had left gas in there from last spring) and filled it up again. Finally, the engine started cranking - but it wouldn't stay on. After trying for about 10 minutes, I finally got it to stay on while spinning the chain.

So, I proceed to the tree. After cutting my way through some thick prickly brush, I made it to the base of the tree. I really have no idea how to properly cut down a tree, but I figured this small one wouldn't give me any problems. I had watched a friend cut down a standing tree, so I guess that made me an expert :rolleyes: . Like a dummy, I begin the cut on the inside of the bend. I had actually thought out this process ahead of time, but I guess my thoughts were based on novice ideas. So, my bar and chain started to stall halfway in. And then it stopped. It was pinched in the kerf. After about an hour of tugging, cutting with a handsaw, and drilling, the chain was just as stuck as it was when I started. As you can imagine, I was boiling. It was the chain that was stuck - the bar was moving. So I ended up unscrewing the bar from the saw and slipped the bar off the chain. That part was no problem. The chain is still out there stuck in the tree.

After all that, I decided to do some of the needed maintenance on the saw. I discovered how poorly the Stihl manual is in explaining the procedures. It tells you what and when to do it, but not how. Some things I couldn't find any mention at all in the manual. Still, I managed to clean a lot of gunk from it.

Tomorrow, I will buy a new chain and attempt this again. If anyone wants to offer any advise, point out the wrong things I did, or just laugh at my stupidity, feel free.

Stefan

Ken Fitzgerald
09-29-2004, 10:06 PM
Stefan....you didn't say what the diameter of the tree is. If it isn't too big you might be better off cutting it manually. You have obviously found out the error of your initial process. You should have cut at the outside of the bend. Thus as the tree gives (gravity takes over) it would open or widen the kerf not tighten and bind. The odds are that your chain will be okay. For small trees I have a bow saw made for cutting tree limbs I use. For real trees....I have a pro-model McCulloch chainsaw I've had for nearly 30 years. It still runs well. I'd try cutting it manually from the outside of the bend...thus you can control the cut and get to your chain without out damaging it. P.S. don't be too hard on yourself...we've all done something similar! Good Luck! Be careful however you do it!

Don Abele
09-29-2004, 10:14 PM
Stefan, first and foremost (not to lecture) - take care of your tools. Just like a lawnmower over the winter or a car in storage, you should not leave the old gas in there - it varnishes over and creates havoc. As for cutting the tree, never cut on the side a tree is leaning. The tree will continue to follow it's naturally tendancy and lean MORE in that direction closing the kerf. There are many ideas out there for felling a tree, here's what I learned while living in Maine:

Start with a cut horizontal to the ground at the height (and on the side) you want to drop the tree (don't cut too close to the ground - dirt and chainsaw blades don't mix). This is the front cut and is the direction the tree will fall. Cut about 2/3 the distance in. Make the second cut below the first angling up at about 25 degrees until it meets the first. A third and final cut is now needed. This is a back cut and begins opposite the first at the level where the first two intersect. As you cut in, stress will be releaved and the tree will fall in the direction of the first two cuts.

For leaning trees, you make the front cut on the side opposite the lean and the tree will fall into the direction of the lean. In this case, when the bottom cut reaches the top, the tree will heal over on it's own. If it doesn't, continue the top cut until it does.

OK...got that. Now that I typed it I thought about something I should have started with...If you are not comfortable with this, you shouldn't do it. Felling a tree could result in all kinds of unpredictable things happening, including the tree falling in the direction you don't want it to (DAMHIKT). So please be careful. Even "small" trees can hurt and big ones can be deadly. Once they start falling there's no way to stop them.

Be well,

Doc

Stefan Antwarg
09-30-2004, 6:33 AM
I would say the tree is 6-8 inches in diameter. I probably could do it manually if I had the right equipment, but that would require buying the proper equipment. I figure as long as I do it right, the chainsaw ought to work.

Yes, I do need to learn about taking care of my tools.

Stefan

Bill Grumbine
09-30-2004, 7:28 AM
Hi Stefan

This tree is large enough to KILL you if something goes wrong. I do not want to scare you into just leaving it alone, but there are certain procedures that are very wise to follow. Cutting a tree with the kind of tension on it you describe can cause the trunk to fly up and hit you in the face once that tension is released. You will not see it coming, and you may never know what hit you. Even if it moves slowly, a trunk of that size packs a lot more punch that Joe Forman ever did.

You need to start up at the crown, cutting off branches and such, and working your way down the trunk. This process relieves stress and allows the tree to move incrementally, and gives you time to get out of the way. Speaking of that, ALWAYS make sure you have a clear path for a quick retreat. If you have wiggled your way into the brush to get at it, and have no where to go, you are in a very dangerous situation if the tree should move in such a way as to smack you, or even just roll over and trap you. It would be the height of ignominy to be lying in your driveway in sight of the house and help and not be able to get there.

As you whittle the branches and trunk away from the top, you can decide as you go which way the tree is going to move with the next cut. Is it situated so that it will rise up from tension or will gravity cause it to fall? Is the trunk resting on a pivot point (rise in the ground, a branch, whatever) that will cause it to move in an unexpected direction? These questions need to be asked for every cut, and every previous cut has to be evaluated as to how it changed the balance. Make your cuts so that the movement of the log will open the cut up and give the bar and chain room to move. BTW, you are not the only one to leave a chain, bar, or even a whole saw stuck in the log! There is more than one reason why I have two saws! ;)

It is hard to communicate all the possibilities, but a little bit of care and you can cut the thing to pieces without too much danger. I have worked with friends to cut trees up to 48" in diameter, with 12' root balls on them. Just to give you an example, there is a story on my website about cutting up such a large tree. The balance was fine enough that we were cutting logs off one of the limbs that were less than 2' long, and with each cut the monster trunk moved just a little bit. When the tree roatated to where we wanted it, we attacked from a different direction. We have had to use trucks and tractors to move (or hold) them to make the cuts. Trees are big and heavy, and even a small branch under tension can break bones. Think each cut through carefully and don't do anything that makes you uneasy.

If you want to talk about it some more, I think you still have my phone number.

Bill

Jason Roehl
09-30-2004, 8:41 AM
Here's some more, Stefan:

http://weborder.husqvarna.com/order_static/doc/HOUS/HOUS2004/HOUS2004_1140241-95.pdf

You'll need Adobe to read that.

Page 23 is what you're interested in, I think. Bill's got some good tips for you as well. And he's very right about logs "moving and shaking." Those tension situations are an easy way to get yourself VERY hurt. Be careful.

Oh, yeah, you and Bill definitely aren't the only ones to get a saw stuck somewhere....:D

Stefan Antwarg
09-30-2004, 11:46 AM
You guys have me worried now - but I guess that's a good thing. I definitely should think this through more carefully. So, should I get out a big step ladder to reach parts of the tree - in order to use Bill's method? I seem to remember reading somewhere that I shouldn't operate a chainsaw on a ladder.

Stefan

Dennis Peacock
09-30-2004, 11:59 AM
Stefan,

How high do you have to go? Extension Ladder? Step Ladder? Foot Stool? If it's an extension ladder....don't do it! You can slip and BADLY cut yourself with a slipped off running chainsaw.!!! If it's that high, rent a powered lift and cut from a safe platform. Wear hearing and eye protection as a minimum. You can do this....you just have to be careful and think through every aspect before you start the saw. :D Been there and Done That!!!!

Stefan Antwarg
09-30-2004, 12:53 PM
I have a 12 foot step ladder. I am sure I won't have to go all the way up. Maybe 3/4 of the way at most.

Stefan

Kevin Gerstenecker
09-30-2004, 12:56 PM
It not a good idea to operate a Chain Saw from any sort of ladder. In fact, it is also a no-no to use the saw at a height any higher than shoulder-high. Cutting "overhead" with a Chain Saw is just asking for trouble. In a town near me, about 15 years ago, a fellow was KILLED using a chain saw on a cut just slightly higher than his shoulders. He was pruning his back yard Fruit Trees. The chain broke, and it threw the chain back at him. It cut his neck so severely, the MD's ruled that he was probably dead when he hit the ground. Chain Saws are no toys, they will hurt ya BAD. I made my living for quite a few years with a Chain Saw, and I always treated them with the respect they deserve.

Bill Grumbine
09-30-2004, 2:45 PM
Stefan, can you post a picture of the tree, perhaps we could offer some ideas. I am a bit confused now. I thought it was bent over lying on the ground but still rooted. As Kevin has already said, don't stand on a ladder and saw or reach over your head. I have an acquaintance who was sawing over his head, and the log shoved the saw down into his shoulder, making a very nasty cut. He is fortunate to have even survived.

Bill

Stefan Antwarg
09-30-2004, 3:08 PM
I will post a pic later. No, the tree is not lying on the ground. It is at least 8 feet above the driveway.

Sounds to me like the safer of the 2 ways is to cut it at the base and stand in the direction away from where the tree could spring back. I really don't like the idea of the saw above my head.

Stefan

Jerry Olexa
09-30-2004, 5:22 PM
A Tree like that is in what I call "tension". As you cut, you release the tension but in this case it and the weight went the wrong way (Predictable as you look at the tree). ALWAYS cut on the outside side of the intended fall and you can in advance put in a small notch BEFORE you make your slightly slanted cut. We could help you more w a picture. Be Careful. Thats a Lot of weight!!

Paul Downes
09-30-2004, 5:38 PM
Stefan, Bill is correct about the danger of felling trees that lean. There are however some percautions you can take to minimize the dangers of getting whacked by whats known as a 'barber chair' split.

What happens when you begin to cut (usually the back cut) into a tree under tension, is that as you release the tension in the trunk you can create a stress riser that can overcome the physical properties of the wood resulting in a split that races upward until it hinges or fractures off. In laymans terms it splits with frightening speed and often flies out at the sawyer causing severe injuries or death.

What you can do to minimize your risk is to strap or chain the trunk above your cuts. Use a stought strap like a heavy ratcheting tie down strap, or use a 3/8 or heavier chain. I would wrap either around the tree several times and make sure they are secure. Put the strap up high enough so that you are cutting below or out of the line it would take should it come undone or fail. This is the standard way professionals handle leaning trees when felling.

The other advice about having clear egress routes (2 @ 45 degrees to felling direction) is very important. Considering the small diameter of the tree it is problematic to perform the best cut for this type of tree. This cut involves a notch and then plunge cutting to establish a hinge BUT leaving a strap at the back opposite the notch. This strap keeps the tree in position until you cut it last. The amount of lean determines the amount of strap somewhat. You also need to be very careful on the plunge cut. Also when you cut the strap wood the felling goes right quick.

If the tree is nearly in the horizontal already, I would simply make a cut on the top side near the base and keep myself leaned away from the tree. Be mindful of the possible direction of roll when the trunk is cut free. You could make a small notch on the bottom side to allow the tree to make it to ground.

I have worked in the woods felling and bucking for my logging Co. owning brothers-in-law. I also know 2 people who were killed both cutting trees under tension. One was a barber chair and the other was a storm felled tree. Both men violated several saftey rules that ANY SAWYER who works in the woods professionaly would know. Also note that there have been several sawyer related deaths as the result of the hurricanes in the soulth. BE safe.

Stefan Antwarg
09-30-2004, 5:53 PM
Here it is

Bill Grumbine
09-30-2004, 6:51 PM
Hi Stefan

Pictures make things so much clearer! If it were me, I would clear an area behind the tree for running, and yes, I can run, at least for short distances. Then I would bind the tree as Paul describes. Finally, I would make a horizontal cut on the outside of the curve. As SOON as I heard wood starting to crack, I would be on the move away from the tree as quickly as possible. Let it settle and then come back and do it all again. The biggest thing to watch for is as the tree parts company with the stump, it will have a tendency to kick, or jump in an unpredictable direction. If you can leave little bits of wood connected (the hinge), they will buffer that jump and protect you from injury. If this is not clear, by all means ask for clarification before you cut. We would hate to see a notice about you being run through with a tree trunk or squashed like a bug.

Bill

Stefan Antwarg
09-30-2004, 7:18 PM
I am not following Pauls binding method. I cannot picture how it would help. I should just wrap a chain or tie down around the diameter of the tree above the cut? I thought the primary concern was the trunk coming back and hitting me. How will the strap prevent this?

Stefan

Paul Downes
09-30-2004, 7:27 PM
I also would like to mention that some species of trees are more succeptible to 'barber chairing' Ash is one such tree. Many of the pro's I know will never fell an ash except with a strap type cut as I mentioned in the previous post. They always cut an open notch (greater than 45 degrees) about 1/4 to 1/3 of the diameter and then plunge the back cut leaving the strap until the final cut. The plunge cut should be level with or no more than 1" above the center of the vee of the notch. NEVER below the vee of the notch. Either cut to establish the vee should not bypass each other, they need to meet at the apex of the notch. If the butt log has high value I almost always side cut on the same plane as the plunge and back cut. This can reduce tearout in the butt.

Keep in mind that tree rot and Storm damaged trees can do things you usually won't like very much.

I usually don't try to steer a leaner with hinge manipulation. I let them fall where they want.

If things start to go awry, forget the saw and run :eek:

The tree that 'barber chaired' and killed a neighbor of mine was a soft maple about 10-12" in diameter. This guy was in his mid 70's and had worked in the woods most of his life. He had no egress route, his notch was too shallow and his back cut was below the center of the notch vee. Though it wasn't a leaner it was quite windy that day. The tree split straight up the center and hinged about 6' up. It broke nearly every bone on one side of his body.

BE careful!

Paul Downes
09-30-2004, 7:41 PM
The strap or chain is used to contain any section of the trunk from springing back at you IF IT SPLITS UP THE TRUNK. Think of where the tension is in the trunk from the weight distribution. With the tree leaning that bad, the back, or top side of the trunk is in tremendous tension. The side facing the ground is in considerable compression. Once you begin to release this tension with your back cut some trees are verey suceptible to fracturing or splitting in their longitudinal axis. With all that tension the tree splits with an almost explosive force. Faster than you can move anyway. Take a green branch about 1" in diameter. Cut it half way through in the middle and then bend it until it snaps. Usually it will split down the middle some.

Rob Russell
09-30-2004, 8:24 PM
I am not following Pauls binding method. I cannot picture how it would help. I should just wrap a chain or tie down around the diameter of the tree above the cut? I thought the primary concern was the trunk coming back and hitting me. How will the strap prevent this?

Stefan

The point of the wrap is to contain the 2 halves of the tree from spring apart. I guess an analogy might help.

Imagine a pair of scissors standing straight up. Your saw cut is at the tip of the scissors. When you open the blades of the scissors to cut - think of the tree splitting in half like that - except very quickly and with great force. Now imagine wrapping a rope around the tip of the scissors (just above the cut)and trying to open them again. The rope/chain/strap keeps the scissors from opening, or in the case of the tree trunk, keeps the trunk from springing violently open and whacking you.

Stefan Antwarg
09-30-2004, 8:32 PM
So which part of the tree is going to split? If I tie above the cut, I guess I am protecting the cutoff from splitting. But there is mention of the trunk splitting. Nobody has suggested tying below the cut - in order to prevent the trunk from splitting.

Stefan

Kevin Gerstenecker
09-30-2004, 8:45 PM
Stefan, another option would be to just leave the tree as it is. This would probably be a more viable option if you hadn't already started to cut the tree. In this case, I would bind the trunk as others have mentioned. Just wrap something stout, like a big, thick nylon strap or a log chain around the trunk several times just above where you plan to make the cut. This sucker could do many things when the tension is released by the saw cut. Anyone that cuts, or has cut a lot of trees will tell you that this situation is scary, even for the seasoned veteran. Whatever you do, BE CAREFUL! We are not trying to scare you Stefan, this CAN be done fairly safely, just use all the precautions you can to be safe. If you are uncomfortable doing this, there are a few options I can think of. One, use a Pole Pruner with a good, sharp blade to make the cut. That would be more work, and probably take a while, but the Pole Pruner will cut on the pull stroke, and it will keep you a decent distance from the tree. It looks like it is small enough to be doable this way. They also have a power pole pruner. They are extendable, with a power head on one end, and a chainsaw bar and chain on the other end. I have seen these with up to 10, maybe 12" bars, and that would also work, and keep you out of the danger zone for the most part. You can rent either of these for a pretty reasonable cost..................much less than a visit to the ER if something goes wrong. As said before..................JUST BE CAREFUL.............."leaners" under stress like this can bite ya HARD!

Kevin Gerstenecker
09-30-2004, 8:53 PM
So which part of the tree is going to split? If I tie above the cut, I guess I am protecting the cutoff from splitting. But there is mention of the trunk splitting. Nobody has suggested tying below the cut - in order to prevent the trunk from splitting.

Stefan

Bind the tree above the intended cut line Stefan. The trunk may split some as well, but if you cut about 3' or less above the ground, the trunk can only move a short distance, and usually it is the top of the tree you are concerned about, not the trunk. You just want to make sure you are not cutting so low that you are bent over the tree with your head/upper body over the tree. Try to get a comfortable stance, clear the debris and vegetation so you have a clear, tangle free egress zone, and try to stand as upright as you can, leaning slightly away from the tree. Like Bill mentioned, cut SLOW, and listen for the telltale cracking. Follow Bills advice, listen for the crack, back away and let it settle, the cut a LITTLE more. This is a slow, controlled cut process.................NOT a just "let 'er rip, git 'er done" job. Eye protection is a must...........and forget the hearing protection for this one...........you WANT to hear what the tree is telling you. Good luck Stefan, and please........oh please.......BE SAFE!

Stefan Antwarg
09-30-2004, 9:09 PM
Ok - so I am going to tie a strong strap several inches above the area where I intend to cut. I am going to cut the tree parallel to the ground on the outside of the bend about 3 inches from the ground. I am going to go slow and listen for the first sign of wood splintering. When that happens, I am going to quickly step back from the tree. After it stops splintering, I am going to continue into the same cut further until it splinters again - and then move out of the way. Then I am going to keep on doing that until the tree falls.

Is this right? Am I leaving anything out?

Kevin Gerstenecker
09-30-2004, 9:22 PM
Stefan, I would cut the trunk higher than so near the ground, for several reasons. One, if you cut that low, you will be severly bent over, and will not be able to back off from the tree as quickly as you could if you cut about 2 to 3 feet up the trunk. Also, when you are bent over that far, you lose your side vision as to what the top of the tree is doing, which is important. From the pictures, it appears that the trunk is fairly upright about 3 to 4 feet off the ground. You don't want to be bent over and not be able to escape quickly if this tree gets nasty on ya. I think you will be just fine with it, just wrap the trunk to contain the splitting, and take it slow. One thing in your favor is that this tree is fairly small.........but don't let that give you a false sense of security..........the little ones can hurt just as bad as the big ones. It may be a good idea to have a spotter along with you, in case you run into problems. You can do this safely..............just go slow and think it through. I look forward to seeing this tree on the ground once and for all...........and you standing by it safe and sound, with a big smile on your face for a job done well...............and SAFELY! ;)

Paul Downes
09-30-2004, 10:38 PM
"When that happens, I am going to quickly step back from the tree"

No Stefan, step back is not sufficient. Run away is more accurate.

I would cut that tree like this; First I would fasten a nylon tow strap or some strap similar, or a chain around the trunk of the tree about 16" or so above the place where you are going to cut with the chainsaw. Wrap the strap or chain 2-3 times around the trunk and secure it. A good ratcheting nylon tye-down would be great.

I would cut at a comfortable height, maybe knee highor even higher in this case. Position your body to the side of the tree and cut straight into the outside of the bend. You can cut at a downward angle, but if the trunk splits the split part may spring back and pinch the bar so I would cut it straight. As you cut you will be releasing a lot of tension wood so it will start to split, but the strap will keep the split from traveling OUTWARD. It might travel up the trunk of the tree but it can't spring out at you because of the strap or chain holds the split together. When the tree starts to fall or if you hear splitting sounds, get away quick and see if the tree will drop far enough to get some branches on the ground. Once it settles down continue the cut untill it is all the way down.

Another good habit to get into when felling is to immediatly lock the chain brake as soon as you pull the saw out of the felling cut. I simply rotate my hand on the top handle of the saw so that the chain brake locks. Don't take your hand off the handle. I always do this as I turn to run away from the tree as it starts to fall. Never run directly away from the direction the tree is falling. Run away at about a 135 degree angle to the direction the tree is falling. Jogging away is probably more accurate, Always walk your egress route first and clear any tripping hazards.

Run at least twice as far as you think the tree might spring back if it came loose from the stump. I once had a aspen tree come back about 15 yrds. Of course I had cut nearly all the hinge away in order to attempt to knock a previously cut leaner down. This is not considered safe logging practice but you sometimes make do for the sake of expedeiancy. I had run about 25yrds. but was sure supprised when that tree launched backwards after hitting the hung up tree.

Always keep a firm grip with your fingers and thumb wrapped around the top handle of the saw. Some guys get lazy and will push with their palms with thier fingers loose. If you have a kickback you run a very serious risk of cutting the heck out of your hand. I've seen this before, Major gross-out!!! Always keep them fingers wrapped.

JOHN HANCOCK
10-01-2004, 1:07 AM
I am certainly no chainsaw expert but the tree doesn't look too thick. What do the more experience cutters think about renting a motorized pole saw and working back from the top of the tree until it is reasonable to cut and fall it.

Pete Lamberty
10-01-2004, 6:38 AM
Stefan, I would be in the same boat as you are. I wouldn't really know how to do this. It sounds pretty dangerous from what everyone is saying. Even in my ignorance I might have the best way to do it. Call a professional service and have them cut it down any way they want and then once it is laying on the ground you can cut it up anyway you want. I am assuming that there is no danger in cutting it up once it is no longer attached to the ground. Good luck and think safe.