glued-up plane problems

[Kelly Jons]

Hi guys -

Several of you have recently made comments about glued-up planes (Krenov or Finck style) having problems with wood movement or de-lamination.

Just how big a problem is this, really? These planes seem awfully popular for something that might actually be inherently flawed.

I have always wanted to make me a set of planes in this way, but if I am going to do all that work to make something that will only self-destruct in a few years, I will instead take the extra effort to learn the old traditional way of making planes. Some of my single-chunk-of-wood planes work perfectly, even though they are over a hundred years old. That's good enough for me.

I am not looking for hearsay... I want specific examples of your experiences with glued-up planes falling apart, or at least experiencing enough wood movement that they no longer work as well as they did when first made. Photos would be nice. And if you have developed some technique(s) for overcoming glued-up-plane-problems, please share!

If this has been discussed before, please forgive my ignorance and direct me to the appropriate post(s).

Thanks!

Kelly

[David Gendron]

I'm sure it as been discussed before... I made a Krenovian plane not long a go, so can't tell what will happen in 5, 10, 50 or a 100years... The only thing I can tell you is Krenov made and used that tipe of plane for a long time and I don,t think he had any problems! As for traditional woodies, they do have some possible problems... Of course if the one you have are realy old, they were probably good one to start with!

[Brian Kent]

If I remember right, the discussion is whether there would be a problem in a hundred years, not just in your lifetime or mine.

Since in the Krenov style, glueing is all long grain to long grain over a large area, and since the glue is stronger than the wood, I honestly do not see a short time or medium time problem. Maybe your grandchildren will have to re-glue them.

Brian

(Only 3 years experience making Krenov planes, but no hint of de-lamination)

[mike holden]

These planes are tools. If they last 5 years, then they have served their purpose. They can always be reglued.
Worrying about this is like worrying about "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" The answer is of no value, and the arguments specious.

As you point out Krenov made many planes like this, and over the many years of his use, he never changed the method of construction.
That indicates that either there was no issue, or they lasted long enough to suit him.

I think that making a fine plane is a worthy pursuit, making it work better is worthier, worrying about how long it lasts (20 - 50 - 75 years) is worthless.

Make your plane, and use it to make something.

Just my opinion (rant)
Mike

[Alan Schwabacher]

They are easy to make and work well. If one were to self-destruct, you could make another body and keep using the blade. I made one once in the summer and did not leave enough clearance on each side of the blade, so in the winter the wood shrunk and grabbed the blade tight. It did not delaminate, but split the body of the plane down the middle. So leave expansion room, and don't worry about delamination.

[Jim Koepke]

Just my thoughts, but if furniture made and glued up a century ago has not self destructed, why should a plane?

I think the sole would wear before any other problems, other than what Alan experienced, presented themselves.

jim

[Michael Faurot]

I've made about ten or so in the Krenov style and none have de-laminated or self destructed. The oldest ones are approaching three years in age. The glue is stronger than the wood, so I don't expect them to fall apart any time soon. Some were glued up with Titebond III others with Epoxy.

The only issue I've run into, is the same issue you have with any wood plane--they will swell, shrink and move a bit. Some of that can be minimized with proper stock selection, but it cannot be entirely eliminated. Mostly I've noticed issues with the sole. When it happens, it's typically a 60 second process to fix. I have a granite surface plate with sand paper on it. I retract the blade back into the body, rub the sole on the sand paper for a bit, check the sole with a straight edge, and that's typically it.

[Casey Gooding]

I've made quite a few of these planes. As with any wooden plane, there will be seasonal wood movement. The soles will have to be occasionally trued. However, these can be kept to a minimum by using properly dried wood. The only real issues I've ever had were when I used wood that wasn't totally dry.
These issues can happen regardless of the method used to make the plane.

[Sam Takeuchi]

It takes only a few hours to make including glue up time, actual hands-on-wood work takes about an hour or less. Even if it come apart in a few years, it seems like well worth the effort. Homemade bread takes just as much time and effort to make and doesn't last that long.

If parts coming apart is a concern, make one in mortised design. It takes some skill and time, but no parts to come apart. Of course there's a chance it develops a crack somewhere, but nothing is perfect. So it's probably better not to over analyze things.

[Raney Nelson]

I'm one of the people who has mentioned the moisture barrier concern with these planes. I suppose maybe I should have been clearer, though, in not overstating the 'problem'. It's miniscule in the grand scheme of things; I've seen two of this style plane where there have been serious issues (one a delamination, the other a similar issue to the one mentioned above of too-tight blade).I know of probably a hundred or so that have had zero major issues in at least 3 or so years.

Is it a reason not to make planes of this sort? I don't think so. I do wonder whether they'll last a hundred years, but it's more of a theoretical 'wondering' than a practical one.

So here's my overall take: I genuinely believe that traditional single-block planes are a better design. Period. However, they are more difficult and time-consuming to make if you haven't made a lot of them. Laminated planes are easy to make, and anyone with basic ww skills can make a very good plane first time out of the box.

Personally, I'm a pretty hardcore plane geek. I really like planemaking, and I'll always opt for the superior design even if it takes longer and more effort. I also don't personally care for the aesthetics of laminated planes much, and that counts with me.

If I just wanted to make a set of planes that would let me get on with woodworking, though - which I think is what most people want - I can't see any reason not to make laminated planes. They're quick, they work well, and they're pretty easy to make. If there's a problem, it's easy to remake one. And I think a lot of people really do like the appearance of them.

To be honest, I think it's the hardcore 'geeks' like me that often make a muck of the forums, though, because it's easy for someone new to planemaking to read a rather esoteric discussion of something like moisture equalization in wooden planes and think maybe it's a major issue. It's not. Sorry if I contributed to the impression that it is.

[Steve knight]

I can answer this well as I have had several planes fail. cocobolo and ebony were the worst. as far as I can tell the most failures were caused by the wood not being fully dry. if the wood was not fully acclimized to my shop the sides could pop away from the body. it could be a small crack or a lot. when you think about it you end up with a thick body and a thin side. the side will dry faster and it will pull apart. I got to the point of using a pinless meter and I had blocks of each wood and I would compare new to old. they needed to be within 1 to 2% to be safe.
anything more and they could fail. oily woods had the most failures but i don't know if it was the wood or because the glue joint was never as strong.
so as long as your wood is fully acclimated it should be fine.
this was one thing cutting planes on my cnc solved no thin sides glued on anymore.

[George Beck]

I have made many of these planes and I have never had a plane fail due to lamination. I have had a few that I did not proceed with making due to drying issues. A while back I started a purple heart plane. Now it is my practice after any resawing to sticker stack the wood and let it acclimate for at least a week. When I came back to the purple heart plane in a couple of weeks, the sides were banana shaped. The center block showed signs of moisture in the middle. Stickering and letting wood acclimate is important, especially with exotic woods which are seldom dried properly and take a long time to shed moisture.

George

[Kelly Jons]

Thanks, fellas, this is exactly what I wanted to know.

So, to summarize:

1. After resawing, let the wood acclimate.

2. Use dry wood (all pieces within 1 to 2% of the same dryness, if possible).

3. Think twice about using exotic woods that may be waxy or oily.

4. Leave enough clearance on each side of the blade for seasonal wood movement.

5. Keep an eye on the sole flatness and adjust if necessary.

and finally, 6. Read and follow David Finck's book!

I do have a 30+ year old red oak plane made this way, following Krenov's instructions in one of his books or one of the first issues of Fine Woodworking magazine. I made it back in high school. Glue up was easy and it still looks great and works perfectly... so in a way, I guess I answered my own question. :)

[Scott Burright]

And red oak is far from the most dimensionally stable wood. :D

I'd like to make a handplane out of Dymondwood, which would certainly be stable and wear-resistant, but I'm sure that stuff is no fun to cut and shape.

[Bob Smalser]

1. After resawing, let the wood acclimate.

2. Use dry wood (all pieces within 1 to 2% of the same dryness, if possible).

3. Think twice about using exotic woods that may be waxy or oily.

4. Leave enough clearance on each side of the blade for seasonal wood movement.

5. Keep an eye on the sole flatness and adjust if necessary.



I can add a couple.

Not all glues are the same. Insure the wood moisture content is correct for the glue you are using, and the glue is compatible with the wood you are using. For example, the epoxy failure rate on White and Live Oak is high, and Smiths Enterprises now makes a glue engineered specifically for oily tropicals.

Match the grain when laminating thick blocks. That way should they cup or twist slightly in seasonal drying, the lams will warp together instead of pulling the glue joint apart. It's easier to reflatten a sole than repair a failed glue joint.

[Steve knight]

for stability most tropicals are better then American woods. not sure if it is because they are dried better or what. but purpleheart is about as stable as they come. well that does nto include oily woods of course. but purpleheart bubinga bloodwood and such are every stable and move little seasonally.

[Bob Smalser]

Here ya go....at least for boatbuilding woods where in restoration work substituting some parts with other species of similar stability is necessary when the original is no longer available.

Generally the heavier the wood, the least stable it is seasonally. There are exceptions....and Purpleheart is one of them.


Order of Stability in Wood Species

Percent Shrinkage Green to Oven Dry as an Indicator of Relative Seasonal Stability


Radial… Tangential… (R+T)/2
(Flatsawn) (Quartersawn) (Riftsawn)

Northern White Cedar 2.2… 4.9… 3.5
Honduras Mahogany 3.0… 4.1… 3.5
Khaya 2.5… 4.5… 3.5
Redwood, 2d Growth 2.2… 4.9… 3.5
Western Red Cedar 2.4… 5.0… 3.7
Eastern Red Cedar 3.1… 4.7… 3.9
Atlantic White Cedar 2.9… 5.4… 4.1
Eastern White Pine 2.1… 6.1… 4.1
Teak 2.5… 5.8… 4.15
Incense Cedar 3.3… 5.2… 4.25
Alaska Yellow Cedar 2.8… 6.0… 4.4
Purpleheart 3.2… 6.1… 4.65
South American Cedar 4.0… 6.0… 5.0
Iroko 4.0… 6.0… 5.0
Sassafras 4.0… 6.2… 5.1
Okoume 4.1… 6.1… 5.1
Spanish Cedar 4.2… 6.3… 5.25
Black Cherry 3.7… 7.1… 5.4
Black Spruce 4.1… 6.8… 5.45
Tamarack 3.7… 7.4… 5.55
Baldcypress 3.8… 6.2… 5.6
Port Orford Cedar 4.6… 6.9… 5.75
Dark Red Meranti 3.8… 7.9… 5.85
Black Locust 4.6… 7.2… 5.9
Sitka Spruce 4.3… 7.5… 5.9
Sapele 4.6… 7.4… 6.0
Douglas Fir 4.8… 7.6… 6.2
Longleaf Pine 5.1… 7.5… 6.3
White Ash 4.9… 7.8… 6.35
Black Ash 5.0… 7.8… 6.4
Yellow Poplar 4.6… 8.2… 6.4
Rock Elm 4.8… 8.1… 6.45
Slash Pine 5.4… 7.6… 6.5
Apitong 4.6… 8.2… 6.5
Light Red Meranti 4.6… 8.5… 6.55
Black Walnut 5.5… 7.8… 6.65
Tangile 4.3… 9.1… 6.7
Western Larch 4.5… 9.1… 6.8
Angelique 4.6… 8.2… 7.0
Ipe 6.6… 8.0… 7.3
White Oak 5.3… 9.1… 8.0
Live Oak 6.6… 9.5… 8.0,
Greenheart 8.8… 9.6… 9.2

[Ron Hock]

Here's another table of wood stability:
http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/shrink_table.htm. Makes mesquite look pretty good!

As to the OP question, I have a plane that I made over 25 year ago that shows no sign of delamination. In fact, I've never heard of that problem at all and I'm around a lot of Krenov-style planes.

I just asked David Welter at the CR Shop (Krenov's classroom, where he's been teaching for 25 years or so): The only failures I've seen is in the de-lamination of lignum vitae soles, and that, not too often. White glue works as well as anything else. I've seen failure with lignum and epoxy.

Lignum is getting rare enough that that factoid may be irrelevant. We use jarrah for our plane-kit soles and it works very well, is affordable and plentiful (and, I believe, sustainable.)

Seasonal changes can effect the body of a plane requiring re-flattening but that only takes a minute or two and you're good to go. I usually apply a coat of shellac to seal things up (shellac is a great vapor-barrier) and minimize humidity problems (helps keep the plane clean, too).

[David Gendron]

Thank you Ron for your input! It is always nice to have the pros speak up!

[Al Navas]

.
I can assure everyone that the following plane will have NO delamination problems (from a photo I took at Woodworking in America at Valley Forge):

http://sandal-woodsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/hock-plane-book.png

:D:D:D:D:D


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