Building a stock of wood

[Christopher Morgan]

Hello, everyone.

Let me start my first post by saying how much I appreciate all the information I have gleaned from reading the discussions here. Thanks.

Here’s my question: I’ve found a local sawmill that sells local rough cut lumber for $1/BF. They cut hard maple, red oak, white oak, cherry, and ash. The wood is green, and they do it in batches – working on a load of a species at a time. From what I understand, you can’t pick through the boards: you place an order for a certain number of board feet in certain dimensions of the species you want, and then they call you when it is ready to pick up.

Since the wood is green, I’ll need to dry it, so I won’t be able to use it now. And so here’s my problem: I don’t have specific projects that I know I will want to do a year from now, so I can’t order wood specifically for a project. But I want to order wood now so that I will have something to use later.

So my question is: are there lengths and widths and thicknesses that you find to be most useful, generally speaking? Or that are most likely to contain a good proportion of usable wood? If you were ordering to build up a stock of wood to have on hand, what would you order?

Thanks,
Christopher

[Bob Vavricka]

Christopher,
Hardwoods like you have listed are sold RWL (random widths and lengths). Hardwood is not typically cut to specific widths and lengths and the size depends on the size of the log the lumber is cut from. You will probably only be able to specify the thickness that you want to purchase.

I don't know if they grade their lumber, but you can look at hardwood grading rules and get an idea of the width and length ranges and allowed defects for each grade such as FAS (First and Seconds). Here is a link to an article on woodweb that might be helpful. http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Understanding_Hardwood_Lumber_Grading.html

So you you will probably only be able to specify something like you want to order 100 bd ft of 4/4 FAS walnut and if they don't grade it, you won't be able to specify the FAS.
Bob V.

[Christopher Morgan]

I also assumed that they would just take orders for an amount of board feet at a given thickness, but when I talked to them about ordering, they said that most people who order from them specify thicknesses and lengths and that they do their best to accommodate those requests.

I think you are right that they don't grade the wood. (And at $1/bf that seems reasonable to me).

[Rod Sheridan]

Christopher, do you have a workbench?

Maybe plan out a bench, buy enough maple for it, and start out that way.

By the time your maple is ready to use, you'll have decided what your next project will be, and you can order some wood.

I have quarter sawn white oak, flat sawn red oak, maple and walnut in my shop lumber stack.

Regards, Rod.

[Frank Drew]

Christopher,

If you have the room and inclination to store carefully and for an appropriate amount of time, it might make sense to buy a bunch of lumber you think you'll need when the price is low.

But balanced against that, kiln-dried 1x4 or 1x6 hardwoods are commodities and will probably always be available whenever you need them, so there might not be much sense in tying up your capital or space buying goods so readily available.

Special sizes and widths or nicely figured stock, however, are harder and harder to find all the time, so I'd definitely consider laying in a stash of prime stuff. This particular sawmill might or might not be the place for that, but you could ask.

[John Keeton]

At that price, the white oak and cherry are easily worth buying and storing, if stickered properly and you have the space. I never buy kiln dried wood, and most of what I buy is green.

Generally, you will do very well buying from small mills, and normally the wood you are getting is from one tree. That will tend to give you uniformity in color and grain. My experience has also been that most of it is #2 or better, and at $1/ft, that is still a good price.

I would not hesitate to buy these two species. The maple is probably second on my list, but it tends to get powder post beetles quicker in my experience, so storage for a long period of time may not be advisable.

I try to keep a stock of various species in various stages of drying so that I have wood handy when I get a whim. If you have the cash resources and space, it is hard to go wrong with wood investment (except for pest damage!) I have several hundred board feet of walnut in which my average investment is probably $1.25/ft. My guess is that the market value of that wood is now $3.50 - 4.50/ft (some of it is 16/4), so I haven't done bad over the last 3 years - better than the stock market!!

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm not a big fan of buying green lumber. Now you have stuff you need to sticker, store, and pay some attention to, without knowing what grade your getting? I guess if you live in the sticks and have a lot of area to store stuff it's worth a gamble. For my money, if I want to buy lumber for future use I'd rather go to a local auction and buy FAS kiln dried hardwoods for roughly the same price, sometimes less.
just my opinion though, good luck,
JeffD

[John Keeton]

I guess if you live in the sticks and have a lot of area to store stuff it's worth a gamble.That would be me!:D

Jeff, there really isn't much "gamble." I look over the wood, buy at a great price or not at all, sticker it in the barn, and God does the rest. I much prefer air dried wood to kiln dried for several reasons, including the cost. To some degree, I even enjoy the "hunt."

But, I also realize there are many that do not have the space, nor want to lay out the financial investment without a specific need. And, if you have access to local auctions that periodically sell FAS lumber, then that is a great source.

[Johnnyy Johnson]

I live in western NC and have access to a wood kiln and also saw mill. Before the kiln was built I was working on a solar kiln. I was making use of a building that is 50 foot long and 10 ' wide. I was going to make the last 20 foot or so into a solar kiln and storage in the remaining part. What would be the average time that wood takes to dry to about 10%. I know that the time of year matters. Also some people are suggesting a few months. I thought a 5 or 4/4 would take about 3 years.
Thanks
Johnny

[Johnnyy Johnson]

The time I am asking about is for air drying...sorry

[Christopher Morgan]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

I understand that kiln dried wood would be quite a bit easier, but it is a whole lot more expensive -- at least what I've found. The local supplier charges $5.40 for kiln-dried cherry. So buying green wood would save me quite a bit. And fortunately I have a loft area above my shop where I could store it.

I did just make a workbench from the FWW 'Getting Started' site. It has an top made of 3 layers of MDF, a layer of hardboard, and ash banding. I wouldn't be surprised if it sags at the end where the vice is, so maybe planning for a maple top would be a good idea.

So any thoughts on the best general-purpose dimensions? When buying construction-grade lumber, it seems you get better quality wood, the wider the board. Is that also true with hardwood?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, since you didn't specify what size jointer you own, it's difficult to make a reccomendation.

Unless you want to hand plane the wood, I wouldn't buy it wider than the jointer........Rod.

[Derek Gilmer]

I'm in the same boat as you. Just getting into this and have limited storage area. But I found a small saw mill with white and red oak for 50 cents a bf. At a price like that I can't pass it up. I've already given up on parking in my garage, may have to turn the wife's spot into a drying area :D

As for the size I told him the wider the better but as long as it is 6" wide or more I figure I can find plenty of uses for it.

[Luciano Burtini]

....ugh! and FAS cherry in Western Canada is now over $10bf in in 10 foot lengths. :mad:

I can buy pine beetle killed dimensional lumber for what you guys are quoting for rough cherry, white oak (which is as rare as hen's teeth out here), walnut and maple.

If you have the space, buy some of each (or pick a wood you like and like to work with) and store it away for the future. The price is not going to go down.

[Christopher Morgan]

Ah, yes. The jointer. Well, I don't have one. Given the money I have been spending on tools lately (yes, $139 is inexpensive for a DC, but then you add $100 on accessories only to find that its 2HP motor is too much for your measly 15amp circuit so you now need to spend more $ to put in a subpanel out in the shop, and, if you are like me, you realize acquiring big new tools is something best done gradually) the plan is to use a sled and my 13" planer. I know that that might be cumbersome, but I'm hoping it will do for now. If so, then there isn't really a realistic limitation on width.

[Paul Johnstone]

Hey Christopher,

Usually when they ask for the lengths you want, they are asking in general terms. My supplier sorts based on 8-10' long, 10-12' long, 12'-16' and maybe another catagory. The longer boards are little more expensive.

For me 8-10' is a good size (I have also bought 7' long from somewhere else).. The longer pieces have potentially less waste, but they are a bigger pain to handle and store.

As far as what species to get.. What is your favorite? If you like cherry, maybe get 200 bdft of 4/4 (about 1 inch thick) and maybe a little 8/4.
The 8/4 will take longer to dry. Think about it.. you can waste quite a bit and still come out ahead.

If you go this route, you probably should invest in a jointer, planer, and moisture meter (hartville tool sells a decent moisture meter). The meter lets you know when the wood has completed drying.

[Brian Kincaid]

I have had poor results with 'sawn log' aka 'what drops from the log' lumber. Several hundred board feet ended up being about 100 board feet of useful lumber. Out of that I had very few clear pieces. Wild grain (reversing) made machining 'difficult' to put it lightly. Lots of extra time and wear on the jointer and planer.

My latest buy was green graded lumber FAS 4/4. It dries over the summer stickered in my garage, I can use 80-90% of every board, and the cost difference was $0.50bft sawn log to $1.50bft FAS 4/4 (green rough cut).

So, based on my experience I think if you are buying wood for woodworking you should buy graded lumber. :)

Since I've made a long post I'll add in some other nuggets from experience:
1) You aren't a lumber yard so don't joint 8' boards unless you need jointed 8' boards. Crosscut pieces to needed length + 1" or 2" before machining. It will save you a lot of time / wear on the jointer. Then crosscut each end again after machining to square the ends to the jointed faces.
2) Always adjust your plans to use different thickness material. Only plane off enough to match similar pieces to thickness. If everything is exactly 3/4" thick it will look more like Ikea and less like the handwork of a craftsman.
3) I have started resawing more, even 4/4 lumber. Good hardwood makes great short shelves less than 1/2" thick. A 3/8" thick hardwood shelf won't sag much, and it can add nice contrast between thick/thin pieces. You also get more use out of each piece of lumber. It will challenge your old school joinery skills. Some techniques don't work well in thin material (screwed brackets for example).
4) If you have a severely cupped board you will get more lumber by ripping down the center of the cup, machine the pieces then join the board back together. If the cupped board is over 6/4 thick you can rip the board to widths just over your desired thickness, machine, then 'roll' the pieces over and join. I made several 7"+ wide boards out 6" wide boards this way. They were very stable after the operation.

Best of luck.
-Brian

[Paul Johnstone]

I have had poor results with 'sawn log' aka 'what drops from the log' lumber.


Good point, it kind of pays to look at it. But I guess the OP doesn't have the option.

It also depends on what you are going to build. If you are going to build a 7' long kitchen table, then off the log isn't likely to work.

If you are making cabinets that have a lot of 2-4' pieces, log grade is more viable.

But yea, don't expect FAS grade quality at that price.

[Brian Kincaid]

Ah, yes. The jointer. Well, I don't have one.

Talk to anyone who has used a sled for any length of time.

You MUST have a jointer... that is all :D

-Brian

[Christopher Morgan]

Talk to anyone who has used a sled for any length of time.

You MUST have a jointer... that is all :D

-Brian

There are many virtues of the discussions that take place here ... helping me resist the urge to buy more tools is definitely not one of them. :D:(

[Rod Sheridan]

There are many virtues of the discussions that take place here ... helping me resist the urge to buy more tools is definitely not one of them. :D:(

We're here to help you with your tool addiction.

We'll help you rationalise and justify continually larger and more expensive machines and tools.

It's a free service we provide for all members.

I've included a link to a thread to illustrate our objectives for your shop.

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.:D

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=124420

Regards, Rod.

[Christopher Morgan]

[QUOTE=Brian Kincaid;1257287]
Since I've made a long post I'll add in some other nuggets from experience:

Thanks for these tips, Brian. They are helpful.

[Christopher Morgan]

For me 8-10' is a good size (I have also bought 7' long from somewhere else).. The longer pieces have potentially less waste, but they are a bigger pain to handle and store.

As far as what species to get.. What is your favorite? If you like cherry, maybe get 200 bdft of 4/4 (about 1 inch thick) and maybe a little 8/4.
The 8/4 will take longer to dry. Think about it.. you can waste quite a bit and still come out ahead.


Yes, I sure do like cherry. So your advice seems pretty reasonable to me. Incidentally, cherry -- along with the ash -- is what I will be ordering in specific dimensions and quantities for the projects I do know are coming up in the future ... boats.

[ian maybury]

Must say that i'm in a similar space regarding wood - i'm just getting going on the professional level and am wondering about what approach to take.

I seem to be gravitating towards the view that the main benefits of DIY wood buying and drying are as follows:

1. Potential cost saving.
2. Better choice of wood if you have lots of stock.
3. Known seasoning/drying status.
4. Less pressure to 'take a flyer' when you are uncertain about the dryness of timber.
5. Possibility of commercial sale of dried timber.

The downside is i guess the amount of work and effort involved. It makes sense if you want to be able to buy timber right to invest in a chainsaw mill or something like that too, or at least a bandsaw capable of heavy duty re-sawing. One bit i'm not so certain about is how much of a learning curve it may entail to figure what sort of processing works best, but there's a couple of very expert people on Woodweb, and anyway provided you don't get too ambitious by trying to dry too quickly or in too large sections i get the feeling it's fairly straightforward.

It seems like it's not too hard to set up a smallish kiln using a dehumidifier and a remote probe moisture meter. There's lots of information posted by guys active in the field on Woodweb.

This guy http://nelsonwoodworks.biz/ makes a nominal charge for a write up on how to build a smallish kiln as above - he's active on Woodweb. http://www.woodweb.com/ It's not exactly at the working drawing/professional engineering level, but seems like solid information based on gnuine experience.

I'm planning to give it a go anyway next year. Kiln dried timber is pretty expensive around here (around $60/cu ft for oak), and as a result of less than perfect control of storage conditions can be a bit variable in quality anyway.

ian

[Kevin Godshall]

I'm in the same boat as you are. I have a local mill, will give me what I want for good prices, but random lengths/widths, no sorting.

I get a lot of what would be considered junk to other woodworkers. Knots, wormholes, bark, pith.... you name it. Forget the grading. You're going to get whatever comes out of the end of the mill.

Having said that.... if you're willing to, and able to, do something with that kind of material, you are sitting on a gold mine. It's gotten to the point for me, that they just show up with a pickup load and dump in my yard and say "You can have it."

You will need to grade your own lumber, dimension your own lumber, and be creative in using whatever you end up with. One load maybe all 1sts and 2nds. The next load may be wood stove fodder. Buying like that, you can't really order your lumber for your projects, you more have to plan your projects around whatever you have in inventory. If a project needs better than what you got, you need to go somewhere else and buy quality for that project.

Just my thoughts. Let us know how you make out.

[John Shuk]

Of the woods listed I would buy QS Oak(white or red), Cherry, and Hard Maple.

[Johnnyy Johnson]

What is the average drying time for 4/4" air dried lumber? Does fans speed up the process? What thickness on the stickers? (3/4?)

[Brian Kincaid]

What is the average drying time for 4/4" air dried lumber? Does fans speed up the process? What thickness on the stickers? (3/4?)

For me in Dallas, TX 4/4" dries in less than one summer in my garage. I quickly realized when I got a moisture meter that almost all of the drying happens over the summer. A moisture meter is very nice but not completely required. My stickers are between 3/4 and 4/4" thick. I highly recommend you run a fan especially if you have machines in the same location. No airflow + moisture + cast iron = rust on a machine that is not packed for overseas transport no matter what wax product you use. I run a regular box fan 20"(?) on low speed 24x7. It is hung from the ceiling pointing slightly down towards the stack. Rust is not really much of a problem. I probably clean my machines 4x a year.

-Brian

[John Keeton]

Most that buy green wood realize this, but I have found that buying wood cut after a frost, and stickered will do better. The sap is down, and it dries better. In addition, there is less chance of mold in the winter. By spring, it has lost enough moisture that mold growth is minimized.

Also, always use dry stickers to prevent mold and staining.

Just some thoughts.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.:D



Rod - GUFFAW - I spit out my beer when I read that line. Very good. Very good. Gotta clean the beer off the keyboard now.

[Josiah Bartlett]

As far as what thickness to buy, well that depends on your project and if/how wide you are capable of resawing. I like to have the wood I have pick the project it goes into, so I like to pick up a piece of wood and have it speak to me. Most of my self- dried wood is either 5/4 or really thick like 8/4+, random widths, mostly fairly short like 6 feet. I like to use the leftover edge pieces of the thick stuff for spindle turnings, and the leftovers of the 5/4 are good for cutting boards or corner braces.

I have a 6" jointer, 13" planer, Unisaw, and 16" bandsaw with 12" resaw capacity. If I have a board that is slightly too wide for the jointer I run it over anyway and then kiss off the leftover shoulder with a #7 Stanley jointer plane (or run it through the jointer the other way if the grain isn't too funky), and run it through the planer. As long as the part of the board that you face jointed is wide enough to ride flat on the jointer or resaw fence then you can get the edge jointed square, and I find that as long as the unjointed part of the face is less than 1/3 the width of the board it is pretty easy to come out ok with minor cleanup.

[johnny means]

Careful with the stock piling thing. It's a close realative of the scrap hoarding bug. I've seen plenty of shops become unusable lumber warehouses due to the over zealous wood collector. Especially when buying ungraded ish. Better to own 20 bf of lumber that speaks to you than 200 bf of the clearance stuff.

I once work in a co-op where one guy filled his 500 sf of bench space with every ultra massive or ultra cheap piece of lumber he could find. he paid $800 a month for wood storage for a couple of years

You may think you're saving money, but all your doing is burdening your SO with the task of unloading your wany, moldy, twisty, rotting lumber yard after you go to the big shop in the sky:D (and it will be in that condition after she sits on it for several years). There is no cost savings to buying things that you do not use/need. Kind of like that massive Costco mayonnaise jar in the fridge (and we don't eat a lot of sandwiches)

I am not saying to let a good deal pass you by. But, one should really consider a lot more than price per bf when surmising value.

[Johnnyy Johnson]

Hi Guys...In addition to the sticker and painting the ends of the boards do you use straps (how many, spacing, how tight)
Oh..and what is best to paint with?