LV Made in China? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Jack Camillo

11-09-2009, 8:19 PM

What is the meaning of this? I am a huge fan and big customer of Lee Valley/Veritas, but have to say I was "fooled" and am a little sick at the moment. I don't appreciate receiving a forstner bit marked "made in China." I guess I should have read between the lines, but sorry, I have never been suspicious of LV and therefore skimmed right over "Made exactly to our specifications, these bits took over a year to develop and refine" without mention of the manufacting location or material origin. I don't appreciate smooth marketing like that and would not have expected it from my all-time favorite tool and hardware retailer. They could have at least said on the website "imported."
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&cat=1,180,42240,63566&p=63566

John Keeton

11-09-2009, 8:37 PM

Jack, it is probably more appropriate to let Rob Lee respond here, but let me say that it is my impression that LV, like most other similar companies, imports several items.

Over the years I have purchased many such items and have been pleased with them. It is difficult in today's market to avoid that situation.

I do agree that denoting them imported would be helpful. But sadly, imports are such an integral part of our economy it is almost an assumption. Not that it makes me feel good either, but I am not sure I would feel the same level of betrayal as you. But, everyone has different expectations.

The title to your post could be somewhat misleading. When I saw it, I thought the reference was to their planes. Hopefully, I was alone in that assumption.

Jack Camillo

11-09-2009, 8:47 PM

My disgust with "made in china" is not a preconceived bias. Over the years I've cursed a very many crappy tools and broken items made in china, and even hurt myself with them, from screws to costly but poorly made machines. I know all about the realities of our economy, which is why I don't shop for tools at HD or Ls. But that's not what this post is really about. I like to know what I'm buying before I buy it.

John Coloccia

11-09-2009, 9:00 PM

I have to say that I think Lee Valley is particularly good about labeling their products as "Made In Canada" or "Made In Japan", for example, and I just assumed everything else came from China. Their catalog has cute little maple leafs on everything that's made in Canada.

I like buying domestically, or at least from Europe, as much as I can too, but it's getting harder and harder. Does anyone in the US even still make forstner bits?

John Shuk

11-09-2009, 9:05 PM

John Shuk

11-09-2009, 9:06 PM

Jack Camillo

11-09-2009, 9:09 PM

Their packaging of the metric HSS Brad Points (which I love) have a sticker "Made in the USA", and though the packaging on the individual imperial bits weren't marked, I imagine the same - so I guess I assumed too much when it came to their boring tools in general; again, with the smooth wording.

Art Mulder

11-09-2009, 9:13 PM

:confused::confused::confused:

Err, did you think that Lee Valley sourced all their products domestically?

I just pulled out their current Woodworking Catalog and I can confirm that they clearly mark all products that are made in Canada (with a red maple leaf) or in the USA (with a blue "USA" symbol).

If you aren't happy, Jack, they have an ironclad satisfaction guarantee. They'll take it back if you don't like it.

Dave Lehnert

11-09-2009, 9:14 PM

I think it is common in retail to not point out what may be a negative on a product but LV is good about labeling what IS made in Canada or the USA.
One good thing about LV. They will take it back.

On the flip side I have been surprised at what IS made in the USA at Harbor Freight. Not many but they don't point it out.

Peter Quinn

11-09-2009, 9:15 PM

So. How do they work? Did LV do you wrong, or do the bits work?

I think the day is coming when you can expect Chinese manufacturers to be capable of producing goods on par with those produced else where. Probably its already here in isolated cases. I've used plenty of foreign junk, marked Made In "Some country I perceive to have only recently industrialized and whose commitment to precise industrial manufacturing I find dubious". Taiwan, Korea, India, Indonesia, China, Brazil, Mexico, etc. Working with junk is frustrating and best avoided.

There was a time when "Made in Japan" was the moniker of garbage, and now they are world leaders in quality in many fields. Of course Japanese culture and Chinese culture are hardly the same thing, and post WWII Japan undertook a serious and focused effort to get where they are today. The Chinese are now consciously trying to grow into a mature industrial economy and evolve to shed the perception that they are the junk vendors merely to the world. Might take them some time I imagine. Food for thought.

So how much were these bits? Last time I looked at my LV catalogue I saw a pretty clear distinction between their "Made in Germany, Switzerland, Austria or some other serious high tech country with a reputation for quality" bits, and their "These are imports, not bad for what you pay, not junk but not our best either" lines. Pretty much every decent vendor I can think of sells some import lines, because not every user needs or can afford the top flight bits. QUestion is, again, how do they work?

Jack Camillo

11-09-2009, 9:16 PM

It is possible to boycott 'made in china' whenever possible (which I insist upon with respect to tools and food), and it's a very worthy cause that takes commitment (and extra money). (And it has nothing to do with the Chinese people if that needs to be said)

Peter Quinn

11-09-2009, 9:45 PM

Does anyone in the US even still make forstner bits?

I believe both Morris Wood Tool and Forrest City Tool make their own forstner bits, and Morris also sells some fine bits made in Austria. I haven't used the Forstner's from Morris, but I have used their doweling brad points on my slot mortiser, and they are some of the finest tooling I have ever purchased. Scary sharp and accurate. I have used multi spur boring bits from Forrest City at work, and they were pretty darn good too. Beyond those I am stumped.

Dennis McGarry

11-09-2009, 9:52 PM

Made in china is not synonymous with this is junk.

Yes there are allot of items that come out of there as junk, but there are also a lot of items that come out great. Its all up to the Sourcing company.

If a company is diligent in their relationship with the manufacturer and ensures they follow the manufacturing guidelines you will have a good product. Period.

i would have to say that these bits work great and are the same quality you would expect them to be.

NOW when you see the look alike at HF that could be a different story, same product, made on the same line most likely but with inferior cheaper material.

To many people instantly want to say china bad, only us made blah blah, would be great, but then that bit set would cost you 399.99 and i DOUBT they would sell more then 2

Most of the parts in the computer you are using are china and or twain made btw....

Jack Camillo

11-09-2009, 9:53 PM

I believe both Morris Wood Tool and Forrest City Tool make their own forstner bits, and Morris also sells some fine bits made in Austria. I haven't used the Forstner's from Morris, but I have used their doweling brad points on my slot mortiser, and they are some of the finest tooling I have ever purchased. Scary sharp and accurate. I have used multi spur boring bits from Forrest City at work, and they were pretty darn good too. Beyond those I am stumped.

Thanks for the tip.
No one here that has been doing anything for any amount of time can deny having experienced crappy chinese-made drill bits. Again, I should not have bought it and would not have if they stated where it was made or even stated where it was not made, or didn't attempt to disguise the fact that they are made in china. There's no mention of "these are imports, etc., etc...."

Jack Camillo

11-09-2009, 10:02 PM

And as for "how do they work" - I cannot at this moment bring myself to chuck it in my POS Made in China PM2800 drill press... even though I bought the bit to finish a gift for my wife. Another example of great customer service - just call and they'll send you any part you need, no question. No question because Powermatic knows they are crap and are breaking and falling apart constantly.

Jason Beam

11-09-2009, 10:34 PM

Got it.

All chinese tools are crap.

Lee Valley somehow lied to you by not telling you that the bit was made in china.

Put the dang thing in your drill press and tell us how it works before you tell everyone it's crap. You don't know if it's crap, yet, do you?

All generalizations are ignorant blather, including the one I'm making now..

Well ... i was gonna spew out a huge bunch of ranting but it really won't change nothin...

Sure would be nice if there was a way to convince our whole disposable society that it's a bad idea to pursue such frivolity, huh?

mickey cassiba

11-09-2009, 10:52 PM

Truth told, a lot of cr*p comes out of china But a lot of cr*p comes out of American, Brazil, Italy, etc. Cr*p is cr*p, no matter where it's made. Sweden produces SAAB, undoubtedly one of the finest vehicles made. They also produce Ikea, and we'll not go into that.The Malaysians produce some of the worst products in the world, but my computer, which is about 75% malasian parts, has lasted for over 10 years, and the only component which is presently giving me problems is the American made power supply. If you have a political or moral issue with a specific country, do not purchase products from that country. However, you must remember that the workers in those countries are engaged in the same business that we are; trying to support their families, and raise their standard of living.And as I'm coming close to sounding political, I'll quit now.
Mickey

Joe Jensen

11-10-2009, 12:14 AM

Gary Breckenridge

11-10-2009, 1:05 AM

Am I right in assuming that if something was made in China then it wasn't made by American or Canadian workers ?

David Gendron

11-10-2009, 1:23 AM

To Get back to LV products, a wile a go, I to bought a set of fostner bits that I didn't know were made in China, so the day I received them, I wrote an email to LV and ask if it was possible for them, to indicate the country of origine of all products not only CND or USA made products... And they answered that it would be adressed!!! So it's been at least a year and no change...

That said, I'm still a fan of LV in general, I'm just more carefull when buying and I do ask questions before hand!!

Denny Rice

11-10-2009, 1:40 AM

I think that boycotting Made in China stuff may be difficult to say the least. Made in China does not translate to things being made poorly. Probably the best strategy is to find trust in the people you purchase from. Based on my experience and the testimonials I've read here I do trust Lee Valley. I think if these didn't meet the quality agreed upon by LV and the factory that LV would be rejecting the product.
I hope my trust isn't misplaced. I suspect it isn't.

Come on' you are talking about a country that puts Melamine in dog food, a country that puts Melamine in baby formula, that puts lead paint onto toys our kids stick in their mouths....Yea, I would say the majority of the stuff coming out of that country is JUNK!

fRED mCnEILL

11-10-2009, 3:03 AM

Both Grizzly and HF carry products that are made in China. Grizzly has a very good reputation and when I go there to buy something I never give it a second thought. I also like to shop at HF BUT I am very careful about what I buy and examine it very carefully.

A friend of mine manufactured hot tube cover removers. He decided to have some of the parts manufactured in China. The first patch had problems so he went to China to meet the factory guys and after that the stuff he got was every bit as good as that made locally-and significantly cheaper.

fRED mCnEILL

11-10-2009, 3:07 AM

I just looked at the picture of the LV forsner bits in question. I have the same 2 sets and they are great. Had them about 7 or 8 years.

tyler mckenzie

11-10-2009, 3:27 AM

They're great forsner bits. Lv has German made bits, so you did have the option. I will assume your wallet said 'no'.

Gregg Feldstone

11-10-2009, 4:34 AM

The price tag should have told you "made in China". Can anyone show me a set of 6 Forstners made in Europe or America that would cost only $39? Many of these bits are $40 a piece. I did buy a Starrett fractional dial caliper made in china which seems to be of high quality. If they had an honest, reliable system of labeling their products covering the whole gamete from "crap" to "high quality" they might actually sell even more stuff to us. I have heard that the ISO ratings are a joke......officials are paid off to look the other way and give their stamp of approval.
Maybe something like...."the fasteners packaged with this product are 100% hardened, grade 8 steel". If the box didn't say that you would know not to use them and buy something better at the hardware store. Seems to me the measurement and classification systems which indicate how ANYTHING is made are already out there...we just have to start demanding they are used. I for one, would pay more for someting that I know will meet my needs, not fall apart, not require alteranate parts and save me a lot of time and hassle.

Rick Fisher

11-10-2009, 6:22 AM

Gary Max

11-10-2009, 8:38 AM

Heck-----the great part of this tread-----I was needing a new set of Forstner bits and now I know where to get them at----thanks Mr. Lee

Rod Sheridan

11-10-2009, 8:39 AM

Rob,

Thanks for replying and posting what IMHO is the best/truest explanation of the whys and hows of the increasing production and sales of Chinese manufactured goods. I think what you have said is inarguable, if not a bit sad.

Bob

Yes Bob, I agree, however we are the people who can change things with our purchasing decisions.

Regards, Rod.

Rob Lee

11-10-2009, 8:44 AM

Hi Jack,

Firstly, let me start off by saying I understand and respect your views, though I admittedly have a different perspective.

China represents 1/4 of the planet's population and, in an ideal world, 1/4 of the product we all buy would come from China (which of course, means a significant portion of US production would be consumed by China too). The public generally percieves China as a predatory producer, due to inexpensive labor, lax environmental standards, and generally lower standards. It's a convenient belief (with a stong base in reality) - but the real reason there's so many Chinese products on the market, and so many firms relocating their production to China is because WE demand and reward the behaviour. It's our domestic manufacturing firms that move their production to China. It's our domestic retail firms that abandon the domestic supplier, in favor of a lower cost producer. It is us, as consumers who make purchasing decisions based on pure self interest, and often reward the lowest cost items. In fact - it's pure capitalism at work...

Getting back to the forstner bits... I personally designed those bits... modelled the relief angles, clearances, tolerances, and specified each dimension, of every size of bit. We have them made in a plant that only makes bits for us - and did not make bits before then. We had the tooling made, trained the staff, subsidized the acquisition of testing equipment to control the production. That was in 1996... and we've been selling the same bits since then. You'll note that ours are a unique construction - cast HSS heads threaded and welded on steel shanks - to my knowledge - there is no bit like it in the market. So why China? Because they had the capability and desire to do it...and no one else wanted to.

We have a policy here of manufacturing domestically whenever we can. In fact - we give give a significant cost advantage to domestic (and by that, I mean NAFTA) suppliers. We have a significant interest in keeping our friends and neighbors employed - as those are out customers. We take considerable pride in generating, and preserving domestic manufacturing jobs. We too, have had a number of products of our own design and manufacture copied by Chinese firms - so are quite sensitive to the issue. It is NOT however, a problem with China per se - as they are only making what they've been asked to make by other firms HERE in North America, reinforced by North American consumers rewarding those decisions.

So - while I do respect what you're saying, I don't make China the whipping boy for every economic ill in our society. Just as we have product made for us in the UK, in France, in Australia, in Japan, in the Czech Republic, or in Taiwan - we will also continue to to have product made in China - where, and when appropriate.

Cheers -

Rob Lee

Bob Marino

11-10-2009, 8:46 AM

Yes Bob, I agree, however we are the people who can change things with our purchasing decisions.

Regards, Rod.

It's a convenient belief (with a stong base in reality) - but the real reason there's so many Chinese products on the market, and so many firms relocating their production to China is because WE demand and reward the behaviour.

Rod,

Sure thing - above is from Rob L, which I was agreeing with.

Bob

Rob Lee

11-10-2009, 8:47 AM

Funny, I am a big fan of Lee Valley.. I had a minor issue with them a few weeks back.. sent a very polite email..

I got a response the next day saying that someone would be in touch..

Never heard from them again.. :confused:

Lee Valley is a good company.. If you dont like what you purchased, they will gladly take it back.. On the email.. I would assume it was just a mistake.. Cant condemn someone for something minor when they have such a good reputation..

So Rob Lee is a member here?

Hi Rick -

Shoot me your message at rlee@leevalley.com and I'll look after it - it could be that the person who has your email is ill... still - that's not our normal standard. The service folks usually get back to you right away.

Cheers -

Rob Lee

Matt Day

11-10-2009, 9:13 AM

Well said Rob. Thanks for being a member here - and for having such a great business!

Making generalizations that everything made in China is substandard, or that everything made in America is top notch is simply ridiculous.

Did you assume that everything in the LV catalog is made in USA? Unless there is a statement somewhere in the catalog that says that, I think that was a bad assumption and LV should not be put down because of it.

I completely agree that the biggest thing is trusting the business you're buying from (assuming you are not dead set on the country of origin). I would without hesitation buy anything from LV and know I'm getting a quality product.

Rod Sheridan

11-10-2009, 9:13 AM

It's a convenient belief (with a stong base in reality) - but the real reason there's so many Chinese products on the market, and so many firms relocating their production to China is because WE demand and reward the behaviour.

Rod,

Sure thing - above is from Rob L, which I was agreeing with.

Bob

Yes, I certainly agree, and have been working on changing my buying habits.........Regards, Rod.

Bob Marino

11-10-2009, 9:20 AM

Hi Jack,

Firstly, let me start off by saying I understand and respect your views, though I admittedly have a different perspective.

China represents 1/4 of the planet's population and, in an ideal world, 1/4 of the product we all buy would come from China (which of course, means a significant portion of US production would be consumed by China too). The public generally percieves China as a predatory producer, due to inexpensive labor, lax environmental standards, and generally lower standards. It's a convenient belief (with a stong base in reality) - but the real reason there's so many Chinese products on the market, and so many firms relocating their production to China is because WE demand and reward the behaviour. It's our domestic manufacturing firms that move their production to China. It's our domestic retail firms that abandon the domestic supplier, in favor of a lower cost producer. It is us, as consumers who make purchasing decisions based on pure self interest, and often reward the lowest cost items. In fact - it's pure capitalism at work...

Getting back to the forstner bits... I personally designed those bits... modelled the relief angles, clearances, tolerances, and specified each dimension, of every size of bit. We have them made in a plant that only makes bits for us - and did not make bits before then. We had the tooling made, trained the staff, subsidized the acquisition of testing equipment to control the production. That was in 1996... and we've been selling the same bits since then. You'll note that ours are a unique construction - cast HSS heads threaded and welded on steel shanks - to my knowledge - there is no bit like it in the market. So why China? Because they had the capability and desire to do it...and no one else wanted to.

We have a policy here of manufacturing domestically whenever we can. In fact - we give give a significant cost advantage to domestic (and by that, I mean NAFTA) suppliers. We have a significant interest in keeping our friends and neighbors employed - as those are out customers. We take considerable pride in generating, and preserving domestic manufacturing jobs. We too, have had a number of products of our own design and manufacture copied by Chinese firms - so are quite sensitive to the issue. It is NOT however, a problem with China per se - as they are only making what they've been asked to make by other firms HERE in North America, reinforced by North American consumers rewarding those decisions.

So - while I do respect what you're saying, I don't make China the whipping boy for every economic ill in our society. Just as we have product made for us in the UK, in France, in Australia, in Japan, in teh Czech Republic, or in Taiawan - we will also continue to to have product made in China - where, and when appropriate.

Cheers -

Rob Lee

Rob,

Thanks for replying and posting what IMHO is the best/truest explanation of the whys and hows of the increasing production and sales of Chinese manufactured goods. I think what you have said is inarguable, if not a bit sad.

Bob

Bob Marino

11-10-2009, 9:37 AM

Yes, I certainly agree, and have been working on changing my buying habits.........Regards, Rod.

Yes,and I know some German tools that may interest you.;):D;)

Bob

Rod Sheridan

11-10-2009, 10:16 AM

Yes,and I know some German tools that may interest you.;):D;)

Bob

Expect a visit from the Austrian tool police over that comment:D

Bob Borzelleri

11-10-2009, 10:33 AM

I've had a small electric heater that is sometimes referred to a a "Milk Barn Heater". I've had it for about 15 years. It was made in the US and I probably paid near $50 for it. I've always thought of it as a simple and effective tool for safely creating heat.

We are in the middle of drying out some of the sub floor in the kitchen that fell victim to a broken ice maker line. I've been using fans and thought I'd speed things up a bit by adding another heater. While at Home Depot the other day, I noticed one of those Milk Barn Heaters on a shelf and picked it up.

Two hours later, I was staring at what is probably one of the poorest renditions of a milk barn heater imaginable. The fan bearings shriek, the heat output is weak and when you tip it, instead of turning off like the instructions say it will do, the fan bearings shriek louder. It is junk and it was made in China.

I have a mandolin hanging on my wall that I play nearly every day. In fact, I have six mandolins hanging on that same wall and I play all of them some of the time and a few of them most of the time.

Moving from left to right we have China, US, Canada, US and China. The far left China is a solid body electric so the best opportunity for screwing it up was in using poor quality electronics and this model was the recipient of real trash pickups and wiring which I have since replaced with better stuff. Next up is an octave mandolin made by a fellow in the southwest of the US and it looks, feels and sounds great. The Canadian mando is an acoustic-electric and the design, components and construction are of high quality and it sounds that way, too. Next up is a US made mando that is out of production after the company tried to outsource to China and ended up disappearing. Their US made instruments were high quality, this one still is.

The last hook on the wall holds a most beautiful, hand carved combination of maple and spruce that makes the room it is being played in sound like the Mondavi Center in Davis, California (small plug, there). And it was made in China.

Here's the irony in the situation described by the OP. My milk barn heater (the new one) was marked "Made in China" and I took a chance and lost. I clearly knew that the blond mandolin was made in China and that it was produced in what was probably a very similar manner as the bits under discussion. A US company designed, and underwrote production in China using highly skilled craftsmen and regularly QA/QC'd production. The result with the mandolin is one of the best values in this sort of instrument currently available anywhere.

However, in both of my extremely different outcomes (junk heater/exquisite mandolin), there was one constant; I had clear and direct information as to where each product was made.

Maybe I have missed the point in the various drifts of the thread, but I am led to believe tha the the OP didn't have a way of knowing where the bits were made (other than price which I disagree is always a dead giveaway)> If there was no clearly stated country of origin, then I don't understand the logic behind stating that a product is made in the US or in Canada but not being specific that a given product is made in China, particularly when the product is being manufactured with strict design, material and production requirements.

Nick Lazz

11-10-2009, 11:06 AM

Rob,
It's a convenient belief (with a stong base in reality) - but the real reason there's so many Chinese products on the market, and so many firms relocating their production to China is because WE demand and reward the behaviour. It's our domestic manufacturing firms that move their production to China. It's our domestic retail firms that abandon the domestic supplier, in favor of a lower cost producer. It is us, as consumers who make purchasing decisions based on pure self interest, and often reward the lowest cost items. In fact - it's pure capitalism at work...

Thanks for replying and posting what IMHO is the best/truest explanation of the whys and hows of the increasing production and sales of Chinese manufactured goods. I think what you have said is inarguable, if not a bit sad.

Bob

Although I think Mr. Lee's explanation was a very good one I think it is arguable and most definitely sad.

It is true, that we should not blame China, we should blame companies that send their manufacturing oversees. But I wouldn't say "we demand and reward this behavior", because "we" don't have a choice.
I look at where everything I buy is manufactured. China is virtually on everything. It is nearly impossible to find some items still made in the USA.

Why is that? It is because of NAFTA and free trade agreements that were put into place. This allows companies to manufacture their goods in China or Mexico at a lower cost, due to labor being so cheap and no import tariffs. It allows companies to make a higher profit margin on their products.
It really is scouring the world for cheap labor, which I suppose we could call that capitalism, but I think greed would be a better term.

Maytag was the biggest manufacturer of appliances in the USA and they moved their manufacturing to Mexico....yet the cost of appliances to consumers didn't go down? Treager BBQ's recently did the same thing... you guessed it prices for their products did not drop. There are many, many other examples.

I would gladly, and do, pay more for items that are made in Western Europe or the USA and Canada. Sometimes I have no choice but I try. Do I have tools made in China? Of course. But I don't like it, and I definitely try to avoid it.

Hopefully I didn't offend anyone, but I just don't buy the capitalism argument. Now, all the people who were laid off need more services from the government...which, we end up paying for with more taxes. So I guess these companies got theirs - a higher profit margin due to lower labor costs and they stuck the bill to the American public all wrapped up in a package that gives the impression that it was necessary for good business practices and "lower prices".

I realize this may not be the case, in say for the forstner bits mentioned above and I believe in some instances like Mr. Lee outlined some companies have no other way to get their products made. But that is more of a product of where the USA is from a manufacturing standpoint as a result of free trade agreements.

Sad? Indeed.

Dave Sweeney

11-10-2009, 11:17 AM

Crappy product can be made anywhere as well as good product can also be made anywhere. The most important criteria in the manufacture of anything is the specification that the product is to be made too. As long as the specs. require a quality made product it doesn't matter if its made in Canada, USA, China or Timbuktu. I have a couple of the LV forstner bits and I find nothing wrong with their quality level.

John Shuk

11-10-2009, 11:22 AM

Come on' you are talking about a country that puts Melamine in dog food, a country that puts Melamine in baby formula, that puts lead paint onto toys our kids stick in their mouths....Yea, I would say the majority of the stuff coming out of that country is JUNK!

Point well taken.
The whole thing outrages me as well for the most part but the horse has been out of the barn for quite some time.
I still think much of this comes back to the importers doing their due diligence.

Ron Conlon

11-10-2009, 3:24 PM

I've been to China twice, adopted two great kids from there and have an admiration for the people there. That being said, I also witnessed 12-13 year old kids doing metalworking while kneeling on sidewalks outside of metal fabrication facilities. They were running angle grinders and even welding equipment with no safety equipment whatsoever.

I think of that every time I see cheap crap for sale here.

I understand that people will do whatever to put food on their table, but if as a society we decided to regulate away unconscionable behavior, then sending manufacturing to a country that does not do so is morally ambiguous at best.

Many US companies demand to see the offshore manufacturing facilities and ensure that they are up to acceptable standards. That's good. I'm sure Rob Lee does the same.

This issue always hits close to home for me and occaisionally keeps me awake at night, because it literally could have been my kids sweating away on the sidewalks and getting injured or maimed so that a US stockholder could get a few extra dollars.

Eddie Darby

11-10-2009, 3:34 PM

Quick someone bolt the barn door!:eek: The horse has gotten out!!!!:D

BTW great bits!:cool:;):rolleyes:

Denny Rice

11-10-2009, 4:12 PM

Bob Marino

11-10-2009, 5:14 PM

Expect a visit from the Austrian tool police over that comment:D

Nah, there a great dealer in Canada - Dan Claremont.

Bob

ian maybury

11-10-2009, 5:36 PM

Bit of a mixed issue that. Like several above i feel there's no reason why (as in everything else) some Chinese stuff is not good. The difficulty is just in the absence of clear branding to figure out what's what.

Lee Valley are based on my experience one of the most honourable companies i've ever come across, and again as above are probably a very good filter for getting to good quality stuff. What's more their own brand and locally manufactured stuff tends to be very well priced for what it is too.

The issue at the end of the day though is surely that while a very large part of even the high end tool buying public (despite all the waffle) in the end buys largely on price - which makes it very hard to see how any business can stay alive without at least getting closer to the pile 'em high and sell em cheap brigade.

Many Eastern manufacturers of course gain competitive advantages based on low labour rates, little environmental control, anti-social labour policies and so on (exactly what was and to a degree still is routinely done in the West, at least until very recently) - but unless the customer votes with his/her feet/cheque book in a socially aware way pending some sort of global equilibriation it's hard to see how it can change that much.

You could of course demand that governments apply sanctions and block this sort of trade, but at a time when everybody is frantically trying to hold on to their living standards it's hard to see this getting much support.

The good/bad news depnding on your perspective is perhaps that (bearing what happened with the Japanese in mind) it's (a) inevitable that the Chinese will sort their quality, (b) that their costs and currency will rise and (c) that the West will have to find ways to match their competitiveness if we are to stay in the game.

The Japanese in the big picture did not take over all, and in the end actually turned out to be a major force for improvement in manufacturing worldwide...

mreza Salav

11-10-2009, 5:43 PM

I don't get what the OP is upset about: nowhere in the description is mentioned
it is made in USA or Canada (unlike the other ones which if they are made in Canada or USA are especifically mentioned).
I have bought drill bits which didn't mention the origin and were made in France (I have seen other products made in eastern Europe or other places sold by LV).
If they don't meet your standard and you are not happy I'm sure they'll take it back.

Bob Marino

11-10-2009, 6:04 PM

Although I think Mr. Lee's explanation was a very good one I think it is arguable and most definitely sad.

It is true, that we should not blame China, we should blame companies that send their manufacturing oversees. But I wouldn't say "we demand and reward this behavior", because "we" don't have a choice.
I look at where everything I buy is manufactured. China is virtually on everything. It is nearly impossible to find some items still made in the USA.

Why is that? It is because of NAFTA and free trade agreements that were put into place. This allows companies to manufacture their goods in China or Mexico at a lower cost, due to labor being so cheap and no import tariffs. It allows companies to make a higher profit margin on their products.
It really is scouring the world for cheap labor, which I suppose we could call that capitalism, but I think greed would be a better term.

Maytag was the biggest manufacturer of appliances in the USA and they moved their manufacturing to Mexico....yet the cost of appliances to consumers didn't go down? Treager BBQ's recently did the same thing... you guessed it prices for their products did not drop. There are many, many other examples.

I would gladly, and do, pay more for items that are made in Western Europe or the USA and Canada. Sometimes I have no choice but I try. Do I have tools made in China? Of course. But I don't like it, and I definitely try to avoid it.

Hopefully I didn't offend anyone, but I just don't buy the capitalism argument. Now, all the people who were laid off need more services from the government...which, we end up paying for with more taxes. So I guess these companies got theirs - a higher profit margin due to lower labor costs and they stuck the bill to the American public all wrapped up in a package that gives the impression that it was necessary for good business practices and "lower prices".

I realize this may not be the case, in say for the forstner bits mentioned above and I believe in some instances like Mr. Lee outlined some companies have no other way to get their products made. But that is more of a product of where the USA is from a manufacturing standpoint as a result of free trade agreements.

Sad? Indeed.

Nick,

I still think Rob L's explanation is inarguable, but you have expanded (correctly, I think anyhow) on his post. I do think though we have a choice, even though it seems to be a losing battle - even that great old American clothing company - Filson, has an increasingly larger percentage of non USA items. I always wondered about the "which came first the chicken or the egg" regading companies fleeing over-seas or is it the (too many times, IMHO) consumers insistence on getting the lowest price possible tool, furniture, clothing, etc. using price - not quality, as the first, second and third criterium for their purchases.
Regarding the OP, I have no doubt about the quality of products that companies such as LV offer for sale, no matter where it's manufactured.

Bob

Jack Camillo

11-10-2009, 7:49 PM

Understanding that it's impossible to get the last word in something like this, even if that was important enough, I'll simply reiterate my original complaint but be more to the point: if it's made in China, please say so, so that those who look for country of origin as an indicator of quality can do so without being misled.

I have no loss of respect for and will not stop buying from LV (unless you want to ban me)

But for the record, China is not the only country that has a well-deserved reputation for shoddy workmanship and crappy products (and poison). There are several countries in Eastern Europe whose products I would not even consider, also based on years of experience as a consumer and not a businessman.

Michael Perry

11-11-2009, 1:59 AM

These are the ones you want http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=62137&cat=1,180,42240

fRED mCnEILL

11-11-2009, 2:27 AM

"It is because of NAFTA and free trade agreements that were put into place. This allows companies to manufacture their goods in China or Mexico at a lower cost, due to labor being so cheap and no import tariffs."

Actually, NAFTA stands for North American Free Trade Association so it applies only to Canada, U.S. and Mexico.
China's not included.

Fred M.

Jack Camillo

11-11-2009, 5:36 AM

These are the ones you want http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=62137&cat=1,180,42240

Ya know, I have a couple of these. While their cut is fast and precise, they leave circles in the bottom of the hole. Sometimes I need the bottom of the hole to be smooth.

Greg Portland

11-11-2009, 12:44 PM

But for the record, China is not the only country that has a well-deserved reputation for shoddy workmanship and crappy products (and poison). There are several countries in Eastern Europe whose products I would not even consider, also based on years of experience as a consumer and not a businessman.That includes companies in the US.

Most products that are "made in the USA" get their raw material or components from overseas. It's a global economy & businesses are going to do what makes sense for their bottom line. If they can charge a bit more for USA-made goods then they'll do it, if they can't then they'll get it made elsewhere.

The US has had a trade deficit since 1975... all of this is not new.

Bob Borzelleri

11-11-2009, 1:10 PM

While all of this discussion of the vagaries of international trade and the global economy are interesting, they depart from the gist of the original post which appeared to me to be a statement of dissatisfaction with not being informed of the country of manufacture for the bits.

Even I would look askance upon a general complaint of not being told where a product was manufactured were it not for the fact that the vendor, in this instance, specifies country of origin for the US and Canadian products.

It appears odd to me to specify certain countries, but not others, particularly when products that are coming from China seem to trigger emotional, political and empirical dissatisfaction.

Maybe there are NAFTA requirements that call for such distinction (USA, Canada and Mexico), but even if such requirements exists, I would be surprised if they would also prohibit ID'ing China.

Jack Camillo

11-11-2009, 1:14 PM

Chris Friesen

11-11-2009, 4:01 PM

Even I would look askance upon a general complaint of not being told where a product was manufactured were it not for the fact that the vendor, in this instance, specifies country of origin for the US and Canadian products.

Their behaviour makes sense to me...if the product is manufactured in a place that is "local" or known for quality (Canada, USA, Japan, Germany, etc.) then it's logical to highlight it in the description.

If it's made elsewhere but meets LV's standards for quality and for workplace conditions, then why does it matter where it's made? China isn't any worse than Malaysia, India, or most of Africa as far as labour conditions.

Eddie Darby

11-11-2009, 5:18 PM

One of the nice things I like about dealing with LV is the no hassle return policy, and in the 25 years dealing with them I have never, as a customer, had a single problem with them.

So if a tool is not up to the expectations that you have, then returning it to LV is simple, be it Made in the U.S.A. or Made in China. You know they both make good and bad tools.

Also I would point out that not everything in a label is true, since Made in 'so and so country' is just a sales gimmick too.

Also the quality of manufactured goods varies even within a company, and so I always try to avoid things made on a Monday morning, or a Friday afternoon!;)

Bob Borzelleri

11-11-2009, 7:44 PM

Their behaviour makes sense to me...if the product is manufactured in a place that is "local" or known for quality (Canada, USA, Japan, Germany, etc.) then it's logical to highlight it in the description.

If it's made elsewhere but meets LV's standards for quality and for workplace conditions, then why does it matter where it's made? China isn't any worse than Malaysia, India, or most of Africa as far as labour conditions.

Hmmm... Not sure I see the analogy. If the product meets LV's standards for quality and workplace conditions, why highlight if it is made in Canada, the US, Japan or Germany, much less any other country?

Specifying North American or European manufacturing appears to imply that these products meet the standards that LV expects from China or other developing nations, but somehow better. Again, if everything that is sold at LV meets the same standard, why specify country of origin at all?

If a given product or manufacturer is known for outstanding quality, why not let that fame speak for itself? In my view, LV's current approach to country of origin identification raises more questions than it answers and just might perpetuate the impression that country of origin equates to level of quality. As several folks have already pointed out in this thread, junk can be produced in any country, and as anyone who read my first post might recall, my very favorite and front runner for best quality mandolin in my house was made in China.

...Bob

Denny Rice

11-11-2009, 8:00 PM

Hmmm... Not sure I see the analogy. If the product meets LV's standards for quality and workplace conditions, why highlight if it is made in Canada, the US, Japan or Germany, much less any other country?

Specifying North American or European manufacturing appears to imply that these products meet the standards that LV expects from China or other developing nations, but somehow better. Again, if everything that is sold at LV meets the same standard, why specify country of origin at all?

If a given product or manufacturer is known for outstanding quality, why not let that fame speak for itself? In my view, LV's current approach to country of origin identification raises more questions than it answers and just might perpetuate the impression that country of origin equates to level of quality. As several folks have already pointed out in this thread, junk can be produced in any country, and as anyone who read my first post might recall, my very favorite and front runner for best quality mandolin in my house was made in China.

...Bob

I'm sorry I disagree. I want to know where products I purchase are made, if not for the quality of the product if I have to worry about the conditions the product I am going to purchase is made under. For example I don't want to purchase router bits made by little kids in slave labor conditions. I don't want to purchase sandpaper made in China that could be compounded with something that could affect my health and may be not allowed to be made in America or Canada. I think its great that LV has taken the time to mark country of origin, its important we spend our dollars with businesses that care about their employees and make a quality product at the same time.

Bob Borzelleri

11-11-2009, 9:09 PM

I'm sorry I disagree. I want to know where products I purchase are made, if not for the quality of the product if I have to worry about the conditions the product I am going to purchase is made under. For example I don't want to purchase router bits made by little kids in slave labor conditions. I don't want to purchase sandpaper made in China that could be compounded with something that could affect my health and may be not allowed to be made in America or Canada. I think its great that LV has taken the time to mark country of origin, its important we spend our dollars with businesses that care about their employees and make a quality product at the same time.

I'm sorry but my point is that LV doesn't specify all countries. I happen to like to know where products are made, too. Being specific about developed countries and non specific about developing countries does not accomplish that.

Chris Friesen

11-11-2009, 10:40 PM

Hmmm... Not sure I see the analogy. If the product meets LV's standards for quality and workplace conditions, why highlight if it is made in Canada, the US, Japan or Germany, much less any other country?

Specifying North American or European manufacturing appears to imply that these products meet the standards that LV expects from China or other developing nations, but somehow better. Again, if everything that is sold at LV meets the same standard, why specify country of origin at all?

There are some people who prefer to buy "locally" whenever possible. For better or worse, there are also countries of origin which have a reputation of technical quality, like Germany, Japan, Switzerland, etc. For those reasons, it makes sense to highlight the country of origin for those products for the simple reason that people may be more likely to purchase the product. Realistically, a high quality drill bit from Germany is probably going to sell better than an equal quality bit from Uzbekistan.

If the country of origin is not one of those "special" countries, then there is no real incentive to indicate the country of origin. I may be more likely to buy something made in Canada than in China, but it's not really a deciding factor if something is made in Indonesia instead of Pakistan.

To refuse to buy something just because of the specific country of origin is like hating someone just because they're from the USA. It's too much of a generalization.

Denny Rice

11-11-2009, 11:19 PM

Although I think Mr. Lee's explanation was a very good one I think it is arguable and most definitely sad.

It is true, that we should not blame China, we should blame companies that send their manufacturing oversees. But I wouldn't say "we demand and reward this behavior", because "we" don't have a choice.
I look at where everything I buy is manufactured. China is virtually on everything. It is nearly impossible to find some items still made in the USA.

Why is that? It is because of NAFTA and free trade agreements that were put into place. This allows companies to manufacture their goods in China or Mexico at a lower cost, due to labor being so cheap and no import tariffs. It allows companies to make a higher profit margin on their products.
It really is scouring the world for cheap labor, which I suppose we could call that capitalism, but I think greed would be a better term.

Maytag was the biggest manufacturer of appliances in the USA and they moved their manufacturing to Mexico....yet the cost of appliances to consumers didn't go down? Treager BBQ's recently did the same thing... you guessed it prices for their products did not drop. There are many, many other examples.

I would gladly, and do, pay more for items that are made in Western Europe or the USA and Canada. Sometimes I have no choice but I try. Do I have tools made in China? Of course. But I don't like it, and I definitely try to avoid it.

Hopefully I didn't offend anyone, but I just don't buy the capitalism argument. Now, all the people who were laid off need more services from the government...which, we end up paying for with more taxes. So I guess these companies got theirs - a higher profit margin due to lower labor costs and they stuck the bill to the American public all wrapped up in a package that gives the impression that it was necessary for good business practices and "lower prices".

I realize this may not be the case, in say for the forstner bits mentioned above and I believe in some instances like Mr. Lee outlined some companies have no other way to get their products made. But that is more of a product of where the USA is from a manufacturing standpoint as a result of free trade agreements.

Sad? Indeed.

Well said Nick........I agree completely. American business cries about production costs and how much cheaper they can sell their product if production is moved out of USA, then the price never moves. American Greed at its best.

Brian J McMillan

11-11-2009, 11:19 PM

There is more to the import business than meets the eye. A friend of mine told me some of the ins and out of what you can get away with if your so inclined. He had an import business for over 10 years. He told me that if a company imported , lets say a saw blade from China. Say it cost him 1 dollar to land it in Canada. If he laser engraved his company logo on the blade and it cost him say .60 cents now his blade is up to $1.60. Now he puts the blade in a fancy package and that costs him $.50 for a total of $2.10. He has spent more than 100% of the total cost of the blade here in Canada. He is now legally entitled to put made in Canada or whatever country he is in on the blade.

He told me of a large European tool Co that does just that (there are probably plenty of companies doing this).

Granted the large companies have their own quality control guys in the plants in China keeping a close watch on what goes on with respect to their products.

In this day of global economies we the consumer are totaly in the dark.

Kirk Smith

11-12-2009, 11:01 AM

This is capitalism in full swing, guys. Sellers find the ways to maximize the profit, consumers want to pay the least.
American companies have moved to china to find the way to maximize their profits. One thing that I have not seen in this discussion is the enviromental impacts to china or other third world countries where the north american companies build the factory there.
Besides to maximize their profits, these companies also avoid the headache of dealing with pollutions, environmental issues. It's priceless for these companies.
Let China and third world countries deal with that. But remember, it's a global economy now, and the pollution will be global too in the near future. The pure greeds have to pay sooner or later (just how the financial system in US is nearly collapsed last year).

Bob Borzelleri

11-12-2009, 11:37 AM

There are some people who prefer to buy "locally" whenever possible. For better or worse, there are also countries of origin which have a reputation of technical quality, like Germany, Japan, Switzerland, etc. For those reasons, it makes sense to highlight the country of origin for those products for the simple reason that people may be more likely to purchase the product. Realistically, a high quality drill bit from Germany is probably going to sell better than an equal quality bit from Uzbekistan.

If the country of origin is not one of those "special" countries, then there is no real incentive to indicate the country of origin. I may be more likely to buy something made in Canada than in China, but it's not really a deciding factor if something is made in Indonesia instead of Pakistan.

To refuse to buy something just because of the specific country of origin is like hating someone just because they're from the USA. It's too much of a generalization.

Chris...

I think there might be less disagreement between us on this topic than misunderstanding of each others basic point. Or, maybe I would like to think that there is some agreement here. In that spirit, I'll give it one last shot.

I don't refuse to buy things from China as a generalization; remember the mandolin? As for a vendor choosing to highlight certain countries as the source of manufacturer and leaving the buyer in the dark for others, that simply raises more questions than it answers (I guess I'm repeating myself). If there is logic in making the distinction for developed countries than refusing to do so for developing countries flies in the face of that logic. To assert that this practice makes sense because an undeveloped country has not attained "special" status sounds like a true generalization.

I don't believe that a vendor should "have it both ways" when it comes to letting the buyer know where products come from. To specify some and generalize others conveys a message that is obtuse at best and a bit like hiding the ball at the other end of the disclosure spectrum.

To be clear, I like LV products and have purchased products from them that had various countries of origin, but as a result of this thread, I will be less likely to purchase products where the country of origin is known only to the vendor; not because I generalize about China, but because I believe I have a right to know where products I choose to buy are made. After all, there must be value in knowing or LV wouldn't specify some and not others (I guess we are back where we started).:(

Jason Beam

11-12-2009, 11:54 AM

Has the bit been TRIED, yet?

Rob Lee

11-12-2009, 11:56 AM

(Snip)

... I will be less likely to purchase products where the country of origin is known only to the vendor; not because I generalize about China, but because I believe I have a right to know where products I choose to buy are made. After all, there must be value in knowing or LV wouldn't specify some and not others (I guess we are back where we started).:(

Hi Bob -

That's not an issue with us - everything we sell is marked with country of origin, and for all American customers, is noted on the packing slip as well.

Our policy is to identify domestic product (NAFTA countries) for people that want to support their local economy. We will list other countries where/when relevant to the nature of the product... such as saying "the Turkish fire grill is made in Turkey" (most others are made in China...!)...

Cheers -

Rob

Chris Friesen

11-12-2009, 12:07 PM

As for a vendor choosing to highlight certain countries as the source of manufacturer and leaving the buyer in the dark for others, that simply raises more questions than it answers (I guess I'm repeating myself). If there is logic in making the distinction for developed countries than refusing to do so for developing countries flies in the face of that logic. To assert that this practice makes sense because an undeveloped country has not attained "special" status sounds like a true generalization.

I guess I approach it a different way. I'm Canadian, so for me the fact that a product is made in Canada (or to a lesser extent in the USA) may well factor into my purchasing decision. (Support the local economy and all that.)

However, once I know that it's not "local" then I don't really care what country it's from. Assuming it meets the quality and factory condition standards they're all equal to me.

I don't think the distinction is between developed and undeveloped countries, but rather that certain countries have a reputation for quality. Nobody would argue that Australia or Portugal or Scotland is an undeveloped country, but they don't have the same reputation for precision that Germany and Japan do.

Richard Niemiec

11-30-2009, 10:24 PM

Whew.....my eyes are tired from reading this entire thread.

I have one observation, and that is to congratulate Rob Lee for stepping into the middle of this thread and quite articulately expressing the reality of his "world" in managing supply chains. I know of no other company in this business (with such a broad product range) that is as committed to North American manufacture, be it in Canada or the USA. So, thank you Rob.

fRED mCnEILL

12-01-2009, 3:56 AM

Curt Harms

12-01-2009, 9:10 AM

Come on' you are talking about a country that puts Melamine in dog food, a country that puts Melamine in baby formula,
.......

Two guys recently got shot(executed) for the Melamine fiasco. Dunno if they were just fall guys or what.

Bob Borzelleri

12-01-2009, 12:48 PM

"I'm sorry but my point is that LV doesn't specify all countries. I happen to like to know where products are made, too. Being specific about developed countries and non specific about developing countries does not accomplish that."

Ummm, you could just ask. I'm sure they would tell you.

The point is and always was a discussion of a company's policy about stating where things are made. LV opened the door by citing some countries of origin and not others.

These products are listed in catalogs and on websites. If some countries are being listed by those means, but not others, the customer should not have to call and ask what's what.

Again, the issue is that information is being provided in a selective manner for a purpose that doesn't appear to be to satisfy a customer's expectations of full disclosure of the place where the product was born (unless it was born in a country that is generally thought of as producing quality products).

Gee, I never thought that I could just ask. I guess I could also just blindly order and not care where things are made. Or maybe I could just order from HF and be sure where everything is made.:rolleyes: