Most Versatile Sharpening Jig?

[Dan Barr]

I'm looking to lay paws on the most versatile sharpening jig out there.
I would like it to be able to properly hold a 2 1/2" wide plane blade, bevel edge chisels, paring chisels, skew chisels etc.

I've looked at the Veritas and im not too impressed. max blade width of 2 3/8" is insufficient and that little plastic guide that helps set the angle doesnt look too accurate to me.

Any advice or knowledge of a superior product would be helpful.

Thanks,

Dan

[Raney Nelson]

Dan -
I think perhaps you were looking at the original Veritas guide. Check out the MK II - IIRC, it will handle up to 70mm or close to 3" and uses a rather creative system for setting projection (definitely no plastic). I am a big proponent of freehand sharpening for most blades, but I've used most of the guides out there. Most versatile is definitely the Veritas MK II... I don't think anything else comes close.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm looking to lay paws on the most versatile sharpening jig out there.

My paws are already one of "the most versatile sharpening" holders out there.

jim

[Dan Barr]

thanks for the info to checck the MK II. i'll go have a peek.

I'm fine at hand sharpening. i just want to get things done faster and with less thinking.

cheers,

dan

[David Gendron]

I have the MKII amongs others and it is the best out there that I could find!!

[John Coloccia]

I like the MKII and side clamping guides. Pretty much, I use the side clamping guide the most these days.

[Casey Gooding]

Count me as an advocate of the Mk II also.

[John Keeton]

Another vote for the MKII. Check out this (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=124173&highlight=mkii) recent thread.

[gary Zimmel]

Hi Dan,

If you are used to hand sharpening and are
looking for a little jig that gives a quick secondary and
tertiary bevel (29 degrees and 31 degrees) Rob C. has one that is just coming out.
I just checked his site and it's not there yet.
It's called the angle trainer and I saw it at the show here a couple of weeks ago.
Simple little unit that has rare earth magnets in it to hold the iron or chisel in place.
It gives you the right angle when you are honing freehand.
Nice and quick to use, nothing to set up, and you have the consistent result.

I have the MKII and its a great jig.

This will just make things a lot quicker to do.

.

[Wilbur Pan]

I've looked at the Veritas and im not too impressed. max blade width of 2 3/8" is insufficient and that little plastic guide that helps set the angle doesnt look too accurate to me.

Just one thing to keep in mind when you're looking for "accuracy" in a sharpening jig -- you really don't need to be that accurate. If you are going for, say, a 25º bevel, it doesn't matter much if your sharpening jig setup gives you a 26º or a 24º bevel, as long as your tool doesn't move in the jig once you have it locked down.

Likewise, if you are interested in microbevels (disclaimer: I don't use microbevels myself), as long as your jig will allow you to back up the tool a little to give you a microbevel that is a little steeper than the main bevel, whether that microbevel winds up being 4º, 5º, or 6º steeper won't matter either.

[Derek Cohen]

Just one thing to keep in mind when you're looking for "accuracy" in a sharpening jig -- you really don't need to be that accurate. If you are going for, say, a 25º bevel, it doesn't matter much if your sharpening jig setup gives you a 26º or a 24º bevel, as long as your tool doesn't move in the jig once you have it locked down.

Likewise, if you are interested in microbevels (disclaimer: I don't use microbevels myself), as long as your jig will allow you to back up the tool a little to give you a microbevel that is a little steeper than the main bevel, whether that microbevel winds up being 4º, 5º, or 6º steeper won't matter either.

Hi Wilbur

I agree with you in spirit. Just two points to add ..

The first is that it is not so much the accuracy, per se, of a honing guide that is important - it is the repeatability of the settings that are all important. This allows one to keep the amount of grinding to a minimum, which in turn reduces the amount of honing needed.

The second point is that the best honing will offer the ability for a secondary bevel (e.g. a 1- and 2 degree higher setting to the primary bevel). This increases the efficiency of honing, especially plane blades (like you, I avoid micro-bevels - unless honing a BU plane blade, and I prefer freehanding on a hollowgrind - again, unless honing a BU plane blade). Resetting a blade afresh for a secondary bevel (whether micro or not) is not efficient. An in-built adjustment for this is ideal (as on the Veritas).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Don Naples]

Dan: The H-100 Honing Guide supports plane irons more than 2 3/4" wide and also does a great job on narrow chisels. It has an integrated reference bar for setting the depth of the tool in the guide. It also has a wide roller to cover the width of most stones. If you use it with abrasive paper, an advantage is the roller rolls the surface down just prior to the sharpening of the tool. It can also be used on the Lap-Sharp. Disclaimer - I am the manufacturer.
http://www.woodartistry.com/external/Honing%20Guide/H100WSsm.jpg

[Sean Hughto]

The most versatile would be your own hand.

But if you are looking for a tool/jig, it is pretty much a given with any type of tool used in a wide variety applications, that it can be made to do an excellent job on some, but almost never all jobs. A relevant analogy for me is high end camera lenses. I have a Nikon DSLR. If I want to take a close up of a bird that is any significant distance away from me, I would prefer my 70-300 zoom mm; if I wanted to take a close up of an insect, I would far prefer my 105mm macro; and if I was going for a hike and just wanted a lense that can do everything okay from casuals to vistas, but nothing extremely well, I would bring my "swiss army knife" 18-200mm. The 18-200 is the most veratile, I suppose, but it is limited in other ways. Honing jigs are similar in my experience. All have their limitations, strengths, and weaknesses. There is not one miracle jig that does it all. Have you seen all the various attachments for the Tormek, for example?

The Mark 2 is a fine jig that concsitently performs as advertised. I'm surprised you can merely look at it and dismiss it. But hey, good luck finding the grail jig. Post a picture when you do. ;-)

[Sean Hughto]

By the way, the Mark 2 accomodates blades up to 2 7/8ths:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1

[Dan Barr]

Sean,

I dismissed the first Veritas jig because the little angle jig to set the blade does not look very accuracy oriented. I don't think i need to actually put my hands on it to tell. the MK II looks pretty good though. Back to the first Veritas jig though. I'm mainly talking about that little pentagon shaped wheel that youre supposed to wedge your bevel under in order to set the blade on the jig. If i had that jig, i probably wouldnt use that wheel anyway. i would use my eyes to ensure that i set the blade at the exact bevel that i already have on the blade. then i would check with an actual angle guage to verify.

There seems to be too much room for flex under the edge of that wheel.

correct me if wrong, but even if i used that wheel, i think i would end up checking and re-checking even after using it.

Cheers,

dan

[Dan Barr]

Don,

What is the maximum width of skew chisel that your jig can handle?

Thanks,

dan

[Don Naples]

Don,
What is the maximum width of skew chisel that your jig can handle?
Thanks,
dan

Dan: That depends on the angle you want to set and the width of the skew chisel. The clamp opening is 2+7/8". The reference lines are marked 0 to 45 degrees.
http://www.woodartistry.com/external/Honing%20Guide/H100%20NCsm.jpg

[Sean Hughto]

Oh, you meant the original LV (Mark 1 I guess?). I had that for years before the Mark 2 came out and still use it plenty - keep the camber roller on the Mark 2 for plane blades and use the Mark 1 for straight edged chisels and such. As you suggest, I use the existing bevel and have never used to the wheel thing (though the wheel thing is metal - not plastic - FWIW). I've never had any problem with flex. Really, one is pressing on the blade out ahead of the device when pulling the chisel over the stone, not on the guide. The guide is just helping maintain the angle. If you like secondary bevels - which I do, the mark 1 is very convenient as the spring loaded roller makes it a snap to raise the angle a tad.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2081/2365668122_be6b999e38.jpg

[David Gendron]

How important is it to be so exact on the angle, I meen if you repeat always the same angle it doesn't mather if it's 24,25 or 26.658 degrees, the wood wont know!! Or maybe I'm totaly wrong...

[John Coloccia]

How important is it to be so exact on the angle, I meen if you repeat always the same angle it doesn't mather if it's 24,25 or 26.658 degrees, the wood wont know!! Or maybe I'm totaly wrong...

Someone will disagree, but most would agree. Being able to repeat an angle is very important. That way honing only takes a couple of seconds. If you're making a new bevel every time, honing will take forever everytime.

[Dan Barr]

I'm not really after exact bevel angles. I am however after EXACT Repeatability.

For most of my tools, i will keep whatever bevel angle is on the blade right now. Whether its 25.9 or 31.1878375 degrees. :D

The little wheel on the first Veritas jig would be useless to me. I would set by eyesight with the bevel that already exists.

I'm not a microbevel fan. I dont like to sharpen twice. i go with the correct angle for the purpose and that's what stays on the tool. I do see the usefulness in microbevels though. I'm definitely not a fan of back bevels. i keep most all my tools dead flat on the faces except for my carving tools.

From what i can tell, the H-100 seems a better buy for me. the Varitas MK II does not seem too amenable to skew chisels from an out of the box perspective. also, the reference bar on teh H-100 puts the edge of the tool exactly where it needs to be, where it will initially contact the sharpening surface. It is also already prepped for skew blades.

I am definitely in need of an accurate way to maintain the correct skew angle. some of my old wooden skew planes cant afford to lose much metal to me re-grinding or needlessly wasting metal. I sharpen everything by hand right now but i want to have a faster method.

Cheers,

dan

[Sam Takeuchi]

If you want a faster method, get a grinder and hollow grind. You can skip intermediate grit stones and no need to setup jigs, still get repeatable and accurate result. No need to hollow grind until hollow goes away. You won't be wasting metal either. Honing jig isn't exactly a time saver.

[Derek Cohen]

Dan

I totally agree with Sam's recommendation about freehanding on a hollow grind in the above post. If you are already one that freehand sharpens, then I cannot see why you would want a honing guide! Also I cannot understand why you are so adament about honing a flat bevel only... unless you are working Japanese blades in a "traditional" manner (and even then this is not a sacred matter - most of my Japanese blades are hollow ground on a Tormek).

I also have a question for you - have you actually used many .. any ... honing guides? I ask because your take on the Veritas Mk II is consistently so wide of the mark. For example, a statement such as "the Varitas (sic) MK II does not seem too amenable to skew chisels from an out of the box perspective."

As it happens, the Veritas Mk II is the one of only two honing guides that I know that offer a facility for skew blades.. now ....

I do have another recommendation for you. It may just be your perfect honing guide. No kidding! Are you familiar with the Sharp Skate? This will do everything you want, with one provisor .. you will need to hone sideways, not front and back. Having said this, the side sharpening method is the one I use when freehanding blades. So this probably will suit you even more than you can imagine.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Side%20Sharpening%20and%20The%20Sharp%20Skate_html _2d2d4fbd.jpg

Here is my review of the Sharp Skate:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Side%20Sharpening%20and%20The%20Sharp%20Skate.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Michael Schwartz]

I'm looking to lay paws on the most versatile sharpening jig out there.
I would like it to be able to properly hold a 2 1/2" wide plane blade, bevel edge chisels, paring chisels, skew chisels etc.

I've looked at the Veritas and im not too impressed. max blade width of 2 3/8" is insufficient and that little plastic guide that helps set the angle doesnt look too accurate to me.

Any advice or knowledge of a superior product would be helpful.

Thanks,

Dan


I have both the generic style (cast clamp with a wheel) and the current Veritas with all the bells and whistles.

The Veritas works very nicely, however lately my feeling is the best jig is none at all.

[Richard Niemiec]

<snip> however lately my feeling is the best jig is none at all.


+1.

That being said, however, I've also concluded that one has to buy at least two jigs before the epiphany that you really don't need one after all has burst upon your psyche. As much as some like to think that sharpening is rocket science, believe me, it ain't. Spend your jig money on good stones, no, wait, you can only do that once you have at least two sharpening jigs......

[Todd Bin]

without a doubt, this is the most versitile sharpening jig I have ever seen or used. It basically turns the whole idea upside down. It is easy to use, you can use your whole waterstone and it is not so sensitive to the flatness of your stone.

Check out the video.

http://www.blumtool.com/pages/sharpeningjig.html

Thanks,
Todd

[harry strasil]

+1 for my paws and a leather strop with jewelers rouge on it. By the time I set up a jig for one chisel, I could have touched up 3 or 4 or more with my versatile paws Jig. 2 or 3 swipes on each side. i have been sharpening knives, chisels, plane blades and draw knives since I was I think 6 yrs old and started working with wood.

just my 2 cents. of course I am old and old fashioned.

[Eddie Darby]

It looks simple, yet it works great.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=60311&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1

You just need to be precise in the distance the blade protrudes from the holder to consistently repeat an angle. Capacity is 3", and it works well on narrow tools as well.

The key to this unit is that the sides of the blade must be parallel, so skew chisels are out of the question.

Do you want to put a slight camber on your blades, then the narrow roller allows you to do so by just applying pressure on each end of the blade as you roll it.

[bob frost]

I have and like the Worksharp 3000

[mike holden]

Dan,
from your description, I think you are confusing the mk1 and mk2 LV jigs. Mk1 used the wedge device, and I agree it is clumsy; Mk2 uses an attachment that measures the length of blade extension.
Mike

[Mike Holbrook]

I struggled with sharpening plane blades for quite a while myself. I even bought a Tormek sharpener, water bath grinder, and found it to be slow as well.

I found my answer on a knife enthusiasts forum. Knife makers and enthusiasts face many of the same problems plus some others. These guys almost universally use belt sanders. I bought one and love it. I don't understand why this option does not get more interest on this forum. I think many do not realize all the options in terms of belts that are available for the knife making/modifying crowd. You can get cool grinding belts down to 1000 grit or even microns. If you want even finer there are leather belts available that any kind of compound you want can be applied to. The knife crowd is very big on the opposite of a hollow ground edge, a convex ground edge. Belt sanders with flexible belts are uniquely adaptable to producing this type of very durable edge. I find this style of sharpening matches my old experience hand sharpening as well.

[Scott Burright]

I'm one of those knife guys. So I know what you're talking about. :D

We should be clear what we mean by "belt sander." Typically, these are benchtop or stationary tools that take a 1x30", 1x42", or 2x72" grinding belt. At the lower end, these often have a sanding disc also. The higher end machines are dedicated belt grinders with all sorts of wacky adjustments and contact wheels and stuff.

We generally don't mean the kind of belt sander you use when refinishing the stairs. :D

I have the $40 Harbor Fright 1x30" belt sander and the 1x42" Delta SA180. (The latter is discontinued, but Grizzly still offers the same machine.) You can outfit either one with a range of 3M grinding belts from Lee Valley. These go from 80 micron to 9 micron grit size.

Now about convexity. If you grind on the part of the belt that runs over the platen, theoretically you get a flat bevel. If you grind off of it, which is to say on the slack part (although it needn't be very slack at all), you get more convexity. A convex bevel functions much the same as a series of microbevels at increasing angles. So the resulting edge is stronger than a flat V that has the same average bevel angle. That's just because the terminal angle is increased. Axes are typically ground this way.

Which brings us to another important characteristic of the convex edge. In cutting, it tends to spread and split the target material. This is touted as an advantage among certain knife users, and is certainly advantageous for most axes.

But I'm not at all sure it's an advantage for chisels and plane irons.

If you can picture the cutting mechanics in action, you might see why I hesitate to endorse a convex edge for these tools. :D

It's also true that it's very difficult to control exactly where a belt grinder removes metal, and mistakes take profound effect immediately. So you can easily wind up with a cambered edge where you wanted a straight one, or a back bevel where you didn't want one.... that kind of thing.

Still, I do use the belt sander on some chisels, usually ones that are cheap and a little out of whack anyway. I use the lightest touch I can, and a fine 15 or 9 micron belt, and I often grind over the platen instead of off it. This way, a slight error can't run away with my chisel.

I might try it on plane irons, as it would make it easy to camber the things.

I seldom hesitate to use the belt sander on knives. It is hard to mess up a knife very badly. Even so, I hand-sharpen knives a lot and only go to the belt machine when I'm in a hurry. :D

None of this pertains much to jigs. I don't use jigs on or off the machine.

[Scott Burright]

PS: Even when grinding on a flat medium, freehand, you tend to get a little convexity on your bevels just because of human error. And if you hone on a leather block or similar medium that has a little give to it, there is a little convexity also. Maybe not enough to see with the eye, and maybe it doesn't deviate from the flat enough to split and tear the wood, but it's probably enough to add a little strength to the edge. So a little slop in my hands isn't too bad a thing, I think.

[harry strasil]

I used my versatile paws to sharpen 2 skinning knives for the contractors young helpers today, tomorrow deer season opens. took me about 3 minutes a knife. first I use a crescent wrench handle or a round screwdriver blade like a smooth steel to smooth and realign the bent over edges, then on a 2 sided washita stone, and then on the rough side of a piece of leather then flip it over to the smooth side with jewelers rouge on it, and they both shaved, should a seen their eyes when I shaved a bit of my arm. LOL

[Mike Holbrook]

My belt sander is from Graingers, cost around $200. I think the most popular belt sander out there is probably the Kalamazoo. The Kalamazoo is a very simple 1"x42" grinder with just a tool stop small platen and basic belt tuning ability. I got the Graingers product because of a few features I liked. The Grainger product uses both 1" and 2" belts, the belt can be leaned at any angle between flat and straight up, there is a good size removable, adjustable table and a tool stop, solid larger adjustable platen, side disc.

By selecting an appropriate belt and belt set up options one does have considerable latitude in ones ability to adapt these belt sanders to different needs, more so than most jigs in my experience. Specialized sharpening tools, like a Tormek, may offer a myriad of jigs and thus increased utility. Although the ability to adjust the angle the tool meets the sharpening devise may not be as precise on a belt sander as on some jigs there are options that will allow the user to set a relatively precise angle. I sharpen a wide variety of tools, ranging between 1/4" thick, 5' bush hog blades and small chisel blades. The ability to do each of these tools quickly without a long set up process is important to me. My belt sander now does all the heavy work. If I want to get a real precise final result, I have water stones, sand paper (flat stone) or a Tormek.

Our original poster seemed to be looking for a faster way to sharpen hard metal like plane blades. He also seemed to have experience and a preference for hand sharpening. A belt sander of the type I mention may provide unique answers to those needs. Although a belt with a very coarse stiff fabric used against a solid platen can remove metal very fast a flexible belt with small grit (soft contact) or a leather belt with compound can go as slow as you want. An adjustable table can be used to hold the tool at a precise angle to the belt if that is what the user wants.

The main objection to grinding metal away fast or slow, with mechanically rotated abrasives, is the heat problem. Many 1" & 2" belt sanders, equipped with belts that are designed to stay cool, can virtually eliminate this issue.

[Derek Cohen]

While belt sanders make excellent grinders, the flat grind does not suit freehand honing as much as a honing guide. Freehanders are better suited to hollow grinding on wheels.

I used to do all my grinding on a belt sander, and in fact developed a grinding jig to use on one. It came in two versions, one in wood and the other in aluminium.

Mk I: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderGrinderMkI.html

Mk II: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/BeltSanderBladeGrinderMK%20II.html

In the early days of using the belt sander, I had belts (still do) that went up to 2000 grit. This created an incredible razor edge. However it was time consuming running through about 4 or 5 belts to get to that level.

These days I use a bench grinder to create a hollow grind and then move to waterstones, where I need a few strokes on 1000 and 12000 Shaptons.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Derek,
The belt sanders in your pictures are 4-6" wide. I don't think the 1-2" belt sanders I am talking about work the same. The smaller belts and large areas with no platen are used to produce the convex shape that I think would be hard to reproduce with a 4-6" wide belt, usually with solid material backing. Certainly knife/sword/hatchet makers and sharpeners almost universally use the 1-2" type belt sanders to make knives and sharpen edges.

It just seems to me that the 1-2" belt sander option deserves a little more attention in wood working circles. Mine has certainly made my life easier.

[Jack Camillo]

th Mk II is well made and solid

[Sam Takeuchi]

Mike, are you talking about belt grinder?

[Mike Holbrook]

Below is an example of a 2"x72" belt sander that I would own if I had $400 to spare and more space in my shop. It is very popular with the knife making crowd.
http://grizzly.com/products/Knife-Belt-Sander-Buffer/G1015

Below is another belt sander that is very popular. I have read posts by people doing manufacturing who claim this $220 belt sander gets more use than their $1,000- $2,000 belt sanders.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=505-1371&PMPXNO=952569

Here is a link to the belt sander I bought
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6Y945?Pid=search

On the economy end some guys swear by this Harbor Freight 1"x30" belt sander that is often on sale for around $35.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=2485

I think these belt sanders are substantially different than the 4-6" wide, short belt, sanders that many wood working guys are familiar with. The ones I mention are used in manufacturing applications for lesser "grinding" like deburring. These belt sanders get used by many knife makers and knife enthtusiasts who want a tool that can both grind a bevel on a steel blank and produce a polished finished product. Many knife guys use these tools to establish a bevel and then hand finish and polish, although a leather belt with compound can finish the job on the "belt sander".

If all I had to do was sharpen my wood tools I would own the Veritas MK.II Power Sharpening System and a couple more Shapton stones. As it is I don't think I will try sharpening: 5' 1/4 inch thick bush hog blade, my other mower blades, knives, axes, splitting mauls.... on the MKII. The topic of the original thread had to do with versatility in a sharpening jig. Granted not everyone needs to sharpen 5' bush hog blades, scythes....on a regular basis. Scythes is actually a new topic as these blades are typically peened. I do have to sharpen a wide variety of wood, construction and landscaping tools regularly. In my environment the 1"-2" belt sander is my most versatile sharpening jig/tool, YMMV. For the "my own paws crowd" the 1-2" belt sander is like hand sharpening on steroids for me.

[Aaron Rappaport]

Resurrecting an old thread here, I have a question for Derek about using a belt grinder. Derek, I saw in one of your old posts that you used your belt grinder not only for hollow grinding as well as for flat grinding, by grinding over one of the wheels. Do you still do that?

[Don Dorn]

I too use the elipse jig because it's so easy to set plane irons with. I also have the MK II and like it a great deal too.

I can do it by hand, but I'm not good enough to get consistant results between honings. It takes just seconds to pop an iron in the elipse jig and set it to 30 degrees using the stop block - about 15 seconds on a medium stone until there is a burr, then to a polishing stone for about the same time, clean the back up along with the burr and I'm back in business. I just don't see any appreciable time savings in not using the jig - especially for the consistency they give.

Someone mentioned the ease of honing by hand with a hollow grind (which I do) and I've been thinking the same thing, but isn't that idea flawed in that it would only take half as many honings before you have to grind again because you would polishing two edges at once and will meet in the middle fairly fast?

[Sam Takeuchi]

Once you start hollow grinding harder or more durable steel, you'll understand the energy saving hollow grind provides, especially if the blade in question is thick (1/8" or more). I think hollow grinding provides two benefit: One is to scoop the middle of bevel and in result, it allows easier registration on free hand honing. Another part is the amount of metal you have to deal is when sharpening/honing is reduced by a significant amount. Eventually you will have to regrind to create hollow, but that doesn't take much time to accomplish. While it's not a necessity to have grinder, it does make things a lot easier to maintain your blade, especially if you happen to have specialty blade of some kind that is exceptionally hard and/or thick. It's probably not so bad if you only use relatively thin O1 (even Hock, LN or LV replacement blades are relatively thin to fit vintage planes), but if you ever get D2 or M2 blade that's dull, it's torturous try to re-grind bevel or even hone away wear from the edge if you have full bevel. It takes a long...long...long time. Hollow grinding makes such hard and durable metal quite manageable.

[Derek Cohen]

Resurrecting an old thread here, I have a question for Derek about using a belt grinder. Derek, I saw in one of your old posts that you used your belt grinder not only for hollow grinding as well as for flat grinding, by grinding over one of the wheels. Do you still do that?

Hi Aaron

The beltsander/grinder is an excellent tool. It excels in creating flat bevels. I have no difficulty recommending it to others to use.

Over the years I have altered by sharpening methods to hollow grinds since I prefer to freehand blades where possible. A dry or wet grinder are better suited for this, have moved to a Tormek and an 8" half-speed dry grinder. I do still use a honing guide, as one must when creating high secondary micribevels on BU plane blades, but I just hollow grind for these as well since I am set up for this. If I was not freehanding, and only using a honing guide, a flat grind via a beltsander would be the #1 option.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Aaron Rappaport]

Thanks Derek,

How was your luck hollow grinding over one of the wheels of your belt sander?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Aaron

If you want to grind on a beltsander you will need a dedicated rest for the end. You can hollow grind on the round end of a beltsander, but it is not as efficient as a dry grinder or even a Tormek as it is not possible to grind into the moving belt (as I prefer to do).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dale Sautter]

FWIW... I was out of woodworking for quite a few years, and when I decided to get back into it, the first thing that I wanted to do had nothing directly to do with woodworking, but rather sharpening...

Years ago, not knowing how to sharpen, and not having anyone around to show me the ropes, my sharpening/honing consisted of using hard oil stones and WD40. Remember developing a bad headache from the process, so I did not have fond memories of it. From that annoyance, I discovered "Scary Sharp", and was my routine was set, if not slow. Also found out that an ocillating spindle sander would work pretty well for hollow grinding... just a little difficult holding the iron/chisel in place by hand... :)

This time, years later... google was my friend, and the internet in general is much more accessable/faster. There has to be a better way... what are people using... what can I do differently...? I discovered that there are some folk out there who were able to shape/sharpen knives with something called a belt grinder. What the heck is a belt grinder... more google searches... ahhhh, ok, I get it... How hard could that be...? make a sanding belt go around and around... fashion a work rest to control how the blade/iron/chisel runs into the spinning belt. More googling... it would reeealy be nice to be able to spin the belt maybe a bit slower so you wouldn't need to worry about over heating... ok, how do you setup for variable speed...? More googling... what the heck...? some folk are using discarded treadmill motors to power their metal working lathes... that makes sense... they are strong enough, and can adjust the speed on the fly with a simple rehostat kinda switch (potentiometer). How hard could that be... more googling... wasn't all that tough...

Now, my belt grinder has a 10" contact wheel from Grizzly ($65) for very nice hollow grinding... at all speeds... also have fashioned a flat platen for when I want something... flat. It takes all of 3 seconds to replace the belt for another grit size... literally! Takes all of 5 seconds to trade out the grinding arm holding either round for flat. Made the grinder and tool rest (kinda Tormek-style) out of easy to cut aluminum from a local metal recycler (cheap), using nothing more than a very old benchtop drill press, chop saw with fine crosscut blade, and a very small benchtop bandsaw, and a few files. Didn't let proper tooling stop me... :) Point is... it doesn't take a metal shop full of specialty tools, but a heart determined to see it through, rubbed with a dash or two of full strength patience.

The treadmill motor has worked so well that I just finished installing it on my cheapo/old lathe. The first motor cost me $25 off Craigslist, second one I found for free (they just wanted it gone, 2 years old and a torn belt, so they bought a new treadmill...) and recently picked up a 3hp continuous duty motor with the milled aluminum pulley you see on the lathe. (fella planned on setting up his bandsaw with that motor, but had to clear his tools for a move), the last one cost me $20.

Here are a couple links to some belt grinder kits that I ran across after building mine, I bookmarked the pages, so hopefully someone will find them usefull:

Grinder in a box!
http://www.polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

My EERF DIY grinder build
http://blindhogg.com/eerfgrinder.html

Do a google search for "Grinder in a box! DIY grinder kit" for more discussion on other "knife maker type" forums for more info if you like.

My grinder doesn't look as pretty as most ready built or kits... but it works, and it works well! Included a few pics, hopefully they'll help you see what I'm yappin on about...

hth...

[Aaron Rappaport]

Thanks Dale and Derek,

Dale, I've wondered about doing just what you did, because dressing the wheel on my regular bench grinder - just bought - is messy enough that I'll probably have to do it in some sort of box if I do it indoors.

But, I was under the impression that a contact-wheel type belt grinder had to have a belt track adjuster and a third wheel, and it began to seem too complicated. Your solution looks a lot more doable, so thanks for posting it.

I also still wonder about using a slightly curved platen with an el-cheapo belt grinder. Lee Valley, I found, doesn't recommend this because of heat build up, but I read on a knife-maker forum that one guy got it to work as long as he used grits lower than 120, which would certainly work for my needs.

[Aaron Rappaport]

As a follow up, I recently found the smallest multitool belt grinder attachment for a bench grinder for sale for $199 at http://www.trick-tools.com/multitool.htm . The contact wheel is only 3.5", but theoretically - at least - there is a work around in which one grinds two small hollows on the bevel instead of one large one by putting a shim between the blade and the tool rest to move the blade up in order to grind the second hollow.

Here's a picture of the idea, which is only theoretical at this point:

file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Aaron/My%20Documents/_Woodworking/Sharpening%20-%20grinding%20-%20small%20diameter%20wheels.jpg

[Derek Cohen]

Aaron

Forget the multitool add-on - it runs too fast and will burn your blades.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dale Sautter]

Thanks Dale and Derek,

Dale, I've wondered about doing just what you did, because dressing the wheel on my regular bench grinder - just bought - is messy enough that I'll probably have to do it in some sort of box if I do it indoors.

But, I was under the impression that a contact-wheel type belt grinder had to have a belt track adjuster and a third wheel, and it began to seem too complicated. Your solution looks a lot more doable, so thanks for posting it.

I also still wonder about using a slightly curved platen with an el-cheapo belt grinder. Lee Valley, I found, doesn't recommend this because of heat build up, but I read on a knife-maker forum that one guy got it to work as long as he used grits lower than 120, which would certainly work for my needs.

Hi Aaron,

Ya, you really do need a tracking wheel, but I think that I remember seeing a Kalamazoo (sp?) that just uses two wheels. Just snapped a few pics so you can see it a little better. Having a tracking wheel makes is soooo easy to adjust the tracking left or right with this quick belt release type system. The arm holding the tracking wheel is simply spring loaded at the other end to maintain tension. Not too tough to make using a chopsaw, bandsaw, drill and a file...



As a follow up...


I remember seeing that one too when still in research mode... downside for me was it looked like it would be a tricky setup for variable speed (one major thing I wanted!). Maybe not though...

The knife makers like to have their belt grinders setup for maximum speed for quickly hogging off metal in the shaping process, but I remember reading somewhere that they slow it down for the finer grits. For me, I would rather be able to have the belt spinning (read sandpaper moving) at roughly scary sharp by hand speed. It does. It will surely hog metal with a 24 grit belt running at full speed too... trust me. Doing that a couple times became the new definition of Scary Sharp... for me... :D

[Sean Rainaldi]

Could the MK II be adapted somehow to handle 1/32" wide chisels?