Newbie looking for table saw advice

[Victor Robinson]

Hello everyone,

I'm a relative newb to serious woodworking and SMC, but am currently setting up a small workshop in my garage. I'll be mostly building small things for around the home (frames, small furniture, built-ins) and also will be rebuilding an old rotting deck in our yard.

I'm in the market for a table saw (finally!). Space and budget are an issue, but I'd like something that I can depend on to make accurate cuts for furniture, not just rip lumber.

After preliminary research, I'm leaning towards the Dewalt 745, which I can get online for about $375. Any experience here with this saw? Things to look out for or must-have accessories? Is the stock blade pretty decent or do folks replace it immediately? I've read that the miter gauge on this saw is pretty useless, but I've a got a miter saw for those cuts.

Thanks in advance!

[Don Jarvie]

I would go with a contractors saw at minimum. Most come with a 27 inch wide table and 30 inch fence with a decent amount of power.

The 745 has a small table and for accurate cuts you want the bigger table the contractors saw can provide and the longer fence makes those cuts easier.

[Kirk Simmons]

Buy a good used contractor saw off of Craigslist. You will get a much better saw for your money than if you buy a new one in the store. When folks move (foreclosure, divorce, job change, etc) they often sell their slightly used woodworking equipment for 1/2 price, and you can commonly chisel the price down a little more if you work at it.

Your profile doesn;t show where you live, so I'll have to give examples from my own neighborhood, Minneapolis MN.

Delta Saw w Unifence and extras for $425 (more money than you talked about, but it's pretty tricked out for a contractor saw) - http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/tls/1457899755.html

Jet, looks like a JWTS-10 for only $150 (this is an awesome price on a $750 saw, IF it is a JWTS-10. The pic looks like one but I could be wrong) - http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/1457071623.html

Grizzly G1022 for $325 (this one you'd need to chisel down some) - http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/tls/1444421698.html

There are plenty more to choose from. As long as you don't need it TOMORROW, spend some time watching Craigslist. Research what comes up and decide if you want it or not.

[Lee Bidwell]

I also agree that CL is a great resource. However, if you want a new saw, you might consider (as I am currently) the Ridgid r4511. It's on sale for 499. Add a 10% of Home Depot coupon and recoup the 20% rebate from Ridgid (you'd have to spend an extra dollar to get over 500), and you are down to what you would spend on that Dewalt benchtop. It's a ton more saw. I guess my point is, after struggling with a little benchtop saw for a few years, I would never spend 300 - 400 on one when the same money buys a lot more either on CL or on the Ridgid saw. Good luck and let us know which you choose.

Oh, and from one newbie Creeker to another, WELCOME!

Lee

[Mac McQuinn]

Jet, looks like a JWTS-10 for only $150 (this is an awesome price on a $750 saw, IF it is a JWTS-10. The pic looks like one but I could be wrong) - http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/tls/1457071623.html



I have this saw in the older version and it's well built & accurate although Dust Collection like on all Contractor Saws needs to be addressed. $150.00 is a steal for this, I would not sell mine for less than $300.00.....;)

Mac

[Jason White]

Having had a contractor saw in the past, I'd recommend getting a 3HP cabinet saw right off the bat. After awhile, you're going to get sick of the lower power and mediocre dust collection, regardless of brand.

I bought a slightly more deluxe version of this saw a year ago and couldn't be happier (mine had the built-in router table for a bit more money)...

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Table-Saw-3-HP-Single-Phase-220V-Left-Tilt/G1023SL

This saw is a bargain when it's not on sale, and for the current price of $889.00, it's a total steal! Alternatively, try finding a used cabinet saw on Craigslist. They seem to be all over the place right now because of the bad economy.

A disclaimer: I did get rid of the stock fence that came with the saw and instead mounted a Biesemeyer that I'd had in the basement for about a year. 6" more capacity to the right of the blade than the stock Grizzly fence, which I believe was only 30" or so. If you can live with 30", however, you're all set. Still better than what you'll get with a small job-site saw.

Jason



Hello everyone,

I'm a relative newb to serious woodworking and SMC, but am currently setting up a small workshop in my garage. I'll be mostly building small things for around the home (frames, small furniture, built-ins) and also will be rebuilding an old rotting deck in our yard.

I'm in the market for a table saw (finally!). Space and budget are an issue, but I'd like something that I can depend on to make accurate cuts for furniture, not just rip lumber.

After preliminary research, I'm leaning towards the Dewalt 745, which I can get online for about $375. Any experience here with this saw? Things to look out for or must-have accessories? Is the stock blade pretty decent or do folks replace it immediately? I've read that the miter gauge on this saw is pretty useless, but I've a got a miter saw for those cuts.

Thanks in advance!

[Dean Karavite]

Victor, as one who bought a benchtop saw, then found it quickly outgrown, then bought a used contractor saw on Craig's list, I heartily endorse Kirk's advice. For $350 I got a used Delta with a mobile stand, iron extensions plus an additional formica extension and a Delta fence where I can make 30" cuts. It is "the heart and soul" of my shop now. I am doing things I simply could not do and/or do as easily and safely with the benchtop (Bosch 4000 which was a $650 saw!). Large pieces for cabinet making, ripping longer boards, dados, tenons... and on and on.

The deals are out there. There are plenty of rust buckets, but keep looking until you find the right guy with a nice shop and a saw he babied and you will be very happy. Please, I'm begging you.

See this pic. This is a new version of my saw, (mine is only two years old), but this one has steel extensions while mine is iron, this one doesn't have the formica extension the whole way out to the left (mine does) and I got it for $350 Victor!
http://www.deltaportercable.com//ProductImages/PC_Graphics/PHOTOS/DELTA/TOOLS/LARGE/3/36-977_1.jpg

P.S. I would agree with Jason, but I have a basement shop with very small doors.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Another vote for getting a used contractors saw, and not even bother with a desktop. Many of them are simply a modified circular saw turned upside down.

Or you could bite the bullet and get the Sawstop, and save a finger. All kidding aside, if you're getting a bigger saw, try to find one that has a riving knife. It's by far the best safety option, even more so than the blade brake on the SS IMO.

Oh, welcome. This is a great place to learn.

[Victor Robinson]

Thank you everyone for the advice and welcomes!

I can definitely understand where you all are coming from and I certainly don't want to purchase something I will quickly outgrow. Those Delta saws look really NICE. The used path is something I'd like to consider, save for the fact that I am concerned that I can't yet assess the equipment well enough to know what a good deal is. I'd hate to dump 3-400 on a used saw, only to find out later it's missing something important and costly, like a decent fence system. But I will keep my eyes peeled on CL (I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area by the way).

Space is also a limitation, as my "shop" will be in our 2car garage (with cars). A contractor's saw has quite a large footprint it seems. I also see that they're immensely heavy - can you reasonably expect to transport them once in a while? I may be helping my folks with some cabinet and deck work in the near future.

I see a new Delta 36-977 costs about $640 with fence. If I was in MN, I'd probably think about jumping on that tricked out saw that Kirk linked. Outfeed table too!

What are the other advantages to a contractor's saw over a benchtop, aside from the additional rip capacity? Do you notice a major power difference when cutting thick hardwood? Are the dadoes, tenons, etc. easier or more precise? It looks like a whole new world compared to the benchtops...am I ready for this? :confused:

[Kirk Simmons]

Contractor saws normally come with cast iron (or granite) table tops. These are very heavy, and help cut down on vibration. Less vibration = more accurate cuts. They also usually have beefier motors and better fences than the cheaper saws out there.

They are heavy though. If you plan to pick this thing up and carry it from your house to someone else's house, cast iron tables are a PITA. Moving it around in your own shop is a trivial exercise, you buy or build a rolling base (~$50) if it doesn't have one already. When you want to use it, roll your saw out into a garage stall and cut away. When you're done, roll it back against the wall. If you build shelving in your garage, make the bottom shelf high enough for your saw to fit underneath it.

An extra comment on used saws - if you buy it for about 1/2 of new or less, you can probably sell it again for approximately the same money if/when you decide you need something different. I am on my 4th table saw right now, and they all came through Cragslist.

My first one was a 1960's Wards cast-iron model that I got for free. The owner wanted a case of beer, but it was Sunday and the stores were closed, so I asked him how badly he wanted the beer. Turns out not that badly, so the saw was free. Came with a nice sturdy steel stand too. I bought a good Ridgid 50 tooth combo blade and had at it.

About six months later I bought a cheap used Craftsman aluminum topped saw (~$150 new prob, late 90's saw). I paid $50 for it, and it came with six very very sharp but used ripping blades. I sold my old saw for $10, moving my Ridgid blade to the new saw and putting one of the ripping blades in the Ward's model.

Six months later I couldn't stand the aluminum top any more, and I found an old high quality Craftsman cast-iron model from the late 70's for $90. I moved my Ridgid blade forward again, tossed a (now dull) ripping blade in my cheapo aluminum Craftsman and sold it for $75.

Six more months went by as I looked at Craigslist occasionally, and I found a guy 50 miles away selling a 4 year old Jet JWTS-10 AND a Jet DC-650 Dust Collector for $350. I called him up and offered $300, and he took it. Sold the cast iron Craftsman for $100.

So now I have a $750 saw, and a $200 DC. Total outlay was (Zero for Wards) + ($50 Alum Craftsman - $75 Resale) + ($90 Craftsman - $100 resale) + ($300 Jet Saw / DC) = $265. I also still have the four extra ripping blades, which can be pretty useful as they have varying #'s of teeth from 24-40. I didn't make a big investment, slowly creeping up on my goal and making sure that whatever I bought was going to get used before I spent more money on a better one. Woodworking equipment can be expensive, and takes up a lot of space. If you're not using it, the space lost in your garage can get to be really aggravating, which is one reason why you see so many used ones for sale. You don't necessarily need a $600 saw right off the bat - if you have a truck to carry this stuff and some patience, try creeping up on it before you invest real money and a big chunk of your garage space.

[Victor Robinson]

Thanks Kirk. Moving gradually up to the saw might be the way to go. Even though the larger contractor saws are better and represent a better value used, the DeWalt might be the way to go for now, especially while space is a constraint. Who knows, I may never outgrow it...(probably not true)

In any case, I still have some time to make a decision. I'd love to hear more opinions if you guys have 'em!

[Jake Cox]

I may just be echoing what has already been said, but I was in the same boat as you for about six months - I didn't want to spend more than a few hundred bucks, but began researching (and researching and researching) and soon was convinced that I would need at least a two thousand dollar saw to be happy. For some reason, my wife objected, though, and I ended up just taking an old craftsman benchtop my dad had lying around in the garage while religiously checking Craigslist with the hopes that I could upgrade. It took a few months (I am in the Indianapolis area - we have a lot of table saw), but I finally found and was the first caller on what I thought was a decent contractor's saw - a Powermatic 63A. It's half as old as I am, but I got it for $200 and the difference in cuts is amazing. The differences in its table size, more powerful motor (no more burn marks on hardwoods), fence, and accuracy of cuts are noticable even to a fellow "newbie." Definitely worth the wait...I almost ended up buying a ~$400 benchtop numerous times out of impatience, and am now very glad that I didn't. The only issue I worry about is ordering replacement parts in the future if and when they are needed. I was able to pick up a manual for the saw off of ebay cheap, but I haven't looked into whether PM makes parts for their older saws available.

However, if mobility is really important, I don't know that it makes much sense to go the contractor (or cabinet) saw route. Seems like a benchtop might be better suited to your needs if that is one of the driving forces behind getting the saw. The Craftsman I borrowed from my dad was something I could pick up and move easily by myself. The saw I have now is probably 300-400 pounds, and is only manageable because I picked up a mobile base for it (I also have set up shop in a small two-car garage) - it would take a much stronger man than me to lug it around from job to job.

Whichever route you go, best of luck to you!

[Greg Peterson]

Victor - A contractor saw will have the largest footprint of the three class of tablesaws (benchtop, contractor, cabinet). The motor hanging out the back gets to be a nuisance.

A mobile base is a must for most of us working in our garage/shop.

Dust collection is also a major concern that you probably can't appreciate until you actually cut some stock in an enclosed space without dust collection. The typical contractor saw has no dust collection.

I'm putting together a Ridgid R4511. It has a 1 3/4" granite top, built in mobile base and a riving knife. I like the granite, but the main reasons I bought this saw was it has a riving knife and good dust collection, at a very reasonable price. The mobile base and granite top are just icing on the cake for me.

[Vic Damone]

Victor - A contractor saw will have the largest footprint of the three class of tablesaws (benchtop, contractor, cabinet). The motor hanging out the back gets to be a nuisance.

A mobile base is a must for most of us working in our garage/shop.

Dust collection is also a major concern that you probably can't appreciate until you actually cut some stock in an enclosed space without dust collection. The typical contractor saw has no dust collection.

I'm putting together a Ridgid R4511. It has a 1 3/4" granite top, built in mobile base and a riving knife. I like the granite, but the main reasons I bought this saw was it has a riving knife and good dust collection, at a very reasonable price. The mobile base and granite top are just icing on the cake for me.

+1

Contractor saws were a seemingly good idea back in the day when these lightweight saws were intended to be used outdoors at building job sites, hence the name "contractor saw". This was also a time when you could smoke in a hospital and many of the hazards related to respiratory issues were not yet known.

The dust you can't see is the most dangerous. The dust collection Greg mentions above is probably the most important component of any woodshop and as such should be budgeted along with your new saw.

Today contractor saws are sold without so much as a mention of the inhalation dangers they present in an indoor environment to the user and possibly the entire household. There are measures that can be taken to minimize this danger but you are still left with a uselessly large footprint.

There are modern saws that are available with decent dust collection and a riving knife all for a couple of hundred dollars more. This would be a tool you may never need to upgrade in the future.

Be patient, do it right the first time.

[Carl Babel]

Victor,

I got by for years with a benchtop saw and made some fairly decent stuff. Cabinet saws do make it easier (I have one now and wouldn't give it up), but if you are set on a new saw and the benchtop is what you can afford, I think that it can work.

If you do go the benchtop route, I suggest getting a good thin kerf blade (like Freud) and maybe building something like this:
http://www.shopnotes.com/issues/104/extras/table-saw-workstation/

Whichever way you end up going, good luck!

[Greg Wittler]

I am in the Bay Area & although I will most likely be ordering a new Grizzly cabinet saw by the end of the year I keep checking craigslist & can let you know if I see what could be a good deal, such as this:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/tls/1455792761.html (no affiliation)

It a older craftsman contractor w/ a Biesemeyer fence and router insert ready for $250.00

[cody michael]

i have a delta contractor saw i got for 325 with a rolling base. i work in a 10x16 shed that also stores my motorcycle. and i wouldn't hhave even considered a benchtop one. my dad has a couple and every time we use it you have to fight with it. get a biggest used saw you can.

[Rob Robinson VT]

You might want to consider something like the Bosch 4000/4100 worksite/contractor's saw. I've had a 4000 for several years now and have found it to be an excellent saw that is very portable (when "folded" it takes up amazingly little space), does a decent job and holds up well. I've moved mine back and forth between our primary home and weekend home several times as well as to a rental condo we recently remodeled. The new(er) 4100 model has a riving knife and is also available with a digital readout on the fence. This has been a fairly popular saw so I'd guess the chances are fairly good that you might find a "previously-owned" one for sale. If not, Amazon has the 4100-09 version for $599.99. Good luck with your search and welcome to the wonderful world of woodworking.

[Mac McQuinn]

Menards and Lowes have lowered the price for these to 549.99 and Lowes is circulating some $25.00 cards through the mail which takes it down to $525.00. Nice saw with superior dust collection compared to a unmodified Contractor model.

Mac



You might want to consider something like the Bosch 4000/4100 worksite/contractor's saw. I've had a 4000 for several years now and have found it to be an excellent saw that is very portable (when "folded" it takes up amazingly little space), does a decent job and holds up well. I've moved mine back and forth between our primary home and weekend home several times as well as to a rental condo we recently remodeled. The new(er) 4100 model has a riving knife and is also available with a digital readout on the fence. This has been a fairly popular saw so I'd guess the chances are fairly good that you might find a "previously-owned" one for sale. If not, Amazon has the 4100-09 version for $599.99. Good luck with your search and welcome to the wonderful world of woodworking.

[Brian Kincaid]

...am currently setting up a small workshop in my garage. I'll be mostly building small things for around the home (frames, small furniture, built-ins) ... Space and budget are an issue, but I'd like something that I can depend on to make accurate cuts for furniture, not just rip lumber.


Do some research on track saws. There are off the shelf versions available as well as 'use the tools you have' systems. These have replaced tablesaws in many shops including mine. An entry level 'use the tools you have' system can cost less than what you are looking at even before you add the must-have acce$$orie$ for the table saw.

A common cut for me was a 36" panel by 20-30" panel. The 20-30" 'rip' was fairly easy on a table saw, but the crosscut was a little hokey being too far to use the miter gage and awkward with the fence.

Take a serious look at them before you invest in your solution.

-Brian

[Dave Sepucha]

While I certainly wouldn't want to dissuade anyone from buying a contractor saw, in my case that just wasn't in the cards.

I'm a newbie as well and work in my garage (which is supposed to be used as a garage). I do lot's of construction-type projects, finish the basement, redo a bathroom, etc. But I'm far from a "fine woodworker." I've been moving to finish carpentry. I've made things like a 22 foot long cherry (primarily plywood veneer) built-in in my basement, and other cabinetry. I'm now starting to take a look at furniture.

The thing is that I honestly don't yet know what this hobby will become for me. I'm not yet comfortable with making the investment to rewire the garage for a 3hp saw, or taking the garage over entirely.

So for now I have a (gasp!) ridgid TS2400 portable table saw. I use this in concert with a circular saw and track (Saving up for a Festool TS55) and I've been VERY pleased with my results. I'm impressed with the fence on this modest saw and added a few accessories (zero clearance plates, dado set, sacrificial fences, and dust collection tweaks).

Bear in mind, I work mostly with sheet goods. I'm not sawing 16/4 lumber. Would I like a bigger saw? Sure, but I cant justify they purchase to myself just yet. Well that and I don't have the space.

The fun thing about being this new is with every project my skills improve, I get a sense of my or my tools limitations, and I get a clearer idea of the sorts of projects I want to work on, the skills I want to develop, and the tools I'd like to have.

Now I'm at the point where I think I'd prefer to invest in a nice track saw and keep my modest table saw. I'm finding that in many cases I like the approach where I'm moving the tool and not the work piece. (Ya think this has anything to do with working with sheet goods??) The footprint and flexibility of the track saw approach work for me and what I do.

As I said, I'd love the luxury of having a nicer table saw. But at this point in my hobby I'm very pleased with the money I've spent on a less expensive saw and haven't yet found that its has limited me in any meaningful way. Just an alternate opinion from a newbie.

Have fun with your new purchase!

[Victor Robinson]

Thanks again everyone for your thoughts and insight.

I think I've decided to go for the Bosch 4100-09. With the recent price cut by Lowe's, I'll probably wait until I get a coupon in the mail and pull the trigger. Plus it's easier to deal with a local source in case there's something wrong with the saw out of the box (Amazon would have been my previous first choice for ordering). It's not a cheap saw, but the safety features (esp. riving knife) and the portability/gravity-rise stand are huge plusses. The optional side and outfeed table extensions are fairly inexpensive and look like good additions in the future for cutting sheet goods.

I'm also very pleased to have found out about the GRR-ripper. Being a rookie to table saws and having a healthy respect of most power tools, I'd like to be as safe as possible from the get-go.

Dave - I think our situations are quite close - you make a lot of excellent points. In the future I may look into track saws.

[Victor Robinson]

Hmmm, I still haven't mastered the way replies are layered in this forum. :cool:

Anyways, I've also come to the realization that a jointer/planer will be an upcoming purchase as well, especially to keep lumber costs down as I get started and no doubt screw up a ton of wood. The Jet 8" combo planer/jointer for around $300 seems like a good option.

[Eric Roberge]

Victor,

Not sure if someone already caught this and sorry if I missed it, but the SMC classifieds have some good deals too. Someone just posted a Contractor saw (w/ mobile base) and joiner for $500. (What a great way to get started)

Welcome to the Creek and good luck with your purchase!

[Erik Frederiksen]

Here's another vote for the Bosch 4100. I just got one a month or two ago and really like it. The stand is great for moving it around easily, and it has more than enough power and accuracy for the jobs you want to do.

[scott galyon]

I have the Dewalt saw and I'd recommend staying away from it. The system for squaring the blade to the miter slots is crummy and it took me quite a while to square the blade. I ended up having to turn the saw upside down and adjust the "fixed" screws holding the trunnion to the table top. Only then could I create enough play on the adjustment side to square the blade.

Additionally, the adjustment screws are fine threaded and screw into aluminum screw holes. I ended up stripping one of the two screw holes because I had to loosen and retighten the screws so many times while I wrestled with the whole setup.

As someone else mentioned, there is not much distance from the front of the table to the saw blade. If you try to crosscut a board of any width whatsoever, you won't be able to start the cut with the board and miter gauge on the table. This can become very dangerous as you try to balance everything.

Also, there's no wheel to adjust the blade tilt. You have to shove the wheel that adjusts the blade height over to the extreme left to get the blade to 90 degrees. You then have to try to hold it there while you try to negotiate the locking mechanism with your other hand. As you go to lock it in place, the blade usually slips from vertical a bit.

On a positive note, when I got everything adjusted fairly close with my DigiAlign and Wixey angle finder, it made nice cuts with the thin kerf Diablo blade I put on it. Again, this saw will likely cause you more frustration than enjoyment. I'd seriously look at the Ridgid r4511 at your pricepoint.

[Rob Robinson VT]

I think I've decided to go for the Bosch 4100-09.

I'm also very pleased to have found out about the GRR-ripper. Being a rookie to table saws and having a healthy respect of most power tools, I'd like to be as safe as possible from the get-go.
Good decisions both and ones that I'm quite certain you're not going to regret. Sure, the Bosch isn't the perfect TS but it's about as close as you're gonna get for that price in a package that you can fold up. lean against the wall and still get your car in the garage as I've been doing for the past few years. Enjoy and post some pics when you've built something with it.