Hanging cabinets on a stone wall

[Dean Karavite]

In NW Philly the houses are stone. One wall of our kitchen is stone covered with plaster. It looks like a normal wall until you work with it.

I am going to build some kitchen cabinets for that wall. In hanging other things I have had success in these walls using Tapcon screws, but some times I end up drilling into mortar and not stone, and then either re-drill a new hole or use a type of molly. Question is, what is the best approach in doing all this with hanging cabinets? For example, I can't just drill a pilot hole with a masonry bit through my cabinet, but by contrast drilling and lining up little holes between a wall and a cabinet is not going to be easy. I think I have some ideas, but am not sure.

Would it be better to use a form of French cleat? If yes, how should I build the cabinets? Whatever happens, I think getting all this plumb and level is going to be a learning experience for sure. I tell you, nothing is ever easy in this house - so many guides and how-to's simply don't apply when your house is stone! How many of you use your hammer drill at least once a month? :-)

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

I've seen similar situations and the cabinet installer mounted 3/4" plywood to the uneven wall. That made a much flatter surface to mount the cabinets to. Not to mention its easier to shim plywood and get it pretty flat and even.

If you try to install cabinets to an uneven surface and have to tapcon & shim everything, my guess is you'll drive yourself crazy - it sounds like a lot of work to end up with results that won't be that fantastic.

You would have to put some trim molding along the wall and cabinets to cover up the plywood on any exposed cabinet side faces.

I'm sure there are better qualified answers out there, however!

[Dean Karavite]

Thanks John, that is something to think about. Very interesting idea. To tell you the truth, this wall is probably the most even or flat in the house (compared to the plaster lathe walls). Still, it is certainly not perfect and that is yet another thing to think about and plan for. You nailed it about going crazy - that is something I want to avoid!

Watching Norm's 9 part kitchen cabinet project fills me with envy - I don't have studs I can locate then use to hang cabinets! However, now you have me thinking. If I can set up some type of backing that is flat and strong, it may be a lot of work, but really pay off when hanging the cabinets.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

I just installed my kitchen with a friend of mine and fortunately we have plasterboard on studs, so it was fairly simple and things were flat enough to avoid scribing the side faces!

On a stone wall, I have no idea how you'd go about it other than fixing a mounting face.

Hopefully others with more experience can add in some ideas.

If you did go with installing a 3/4" plywood, i'm not sure if screw length would be an issue. Only having 3/4" depth would concern me a bit.

The place i saw this done was in a log home. The outer walls were rounded logs of course and screw length was not an issue - 4 inch screws were used and it worked well and was very secure. The plywood surface made installation go much easier.

[Kent A Bathurst]

You could use the plywood, or a french cleat, or both. Build the cabinets with the sides extending beyond the back by the dimension that will be taken up by the attachment method. Even with french cleats, you can shim out the bottom of the cabinets - slightly - to get them plumb.

Personally - I like the french cleats because it is simple to mount the wall bracket and get it dead level, and hanging the cabinets is easy. In your case, I would probably use something like John suggests - seems a lot easier to shim out a piece of plywood for plumb + level instead of a bunch of cabinets. Plus - you can fire the screws wherever you want them, regardless of pattern or cabinet construction. Then attach the cleat to the plywood.

[Mike Tidd]

Dean

Consider yourself lucky that you only come across this situation on rare occasions. Living where I do in Greece, just about all my jobs are working on very old stone houses :eek:. Usually, I would go with the cleat method of attaching the upper units to the wall as you can get stronger fixings along the entire run of units. Just recess the backs (approx 3/4") of each unit to attach the second half of the cleat. I too, would normally use 3/4" ply for this job, unless the wall gets really uneven, then add more packing where necessary.

Here's a couple of examples. I even used a venetian plaster on the extractor which must have added an extra 20lbs of weight. So don't sweat it too much.


http://picasaweb.google.com/Joanna.Logan/ReneSHouseKamilari#5350318935647763858

[Dean Karavite]

Mike, if my kitchen had a prayer of looking like the ones you built, I'd take stone walls anywhere!

I think the cleat idea is the best option. I guess I need to check carefully the flatness of my wall. Again, my walls are not exposed stone, but stone covered with plaster. It looks like a normal plaster wall.

I'll also do some digging around in the neighborhood. Every single house has at least one kitchen wall with the same stuff.

Oh yea - how about hanging a big heavy over the stove convection oven. Some times I think it might be easier to built a stud wall OVER my stone wall!

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Mike, you do some really nice work. Looks like you also get to work in some very nice homes. It's got to be a treat working in a nice home, there is something about being surrounded by beauty and craftsmanship that makes you want to produce something of equal or better quality.

Very nice!

[Mike Tidd]

Oh yea - how about hanging a big heavy over the stove convection oven. Some times I think it might be easier to built a stud wall OVER my stone wall!

There have been occasions when the stone walls (particularly plastered ones) have been leaning or sloping from floor to ceiling so badly, that I've had to put a stud wall in order to make things work. In this case it is definetly much easier. Good luck!

Thanks John. Many of the homes that I work on are hundreds of years old and are in some of the most beautiful spots of the Island I live on. However, when I usually first see a new client I'm just praying that they've at least had the mud replaced with mortar between the stones otherwise things get real interesting on the designing phase.:(

[Vince Shriver]

Beautiful work, Mike. Tks for posting the pics.

[Dean Karavite]

It always happens, someone posts beautiful work pics and the guy who needs help is forgotten! :)

Seriously, does anyone else have advice on hanging cabinets on a wall that may look like a normal wall, but is actually stone covered with plaster? Anchoring for stability is of course critical, but techniques on how to line everything up and deal with Tapcons, cleats or whatever else may be the best approach would be greatly appreciated.

[Steve Clardy]

I installed some cabs a couple of years ago with concrete block walls.
I predrilled the cabinet hanging holes with a wood bit.
Got uppers in place with my cab jacks, then used a small concrete bit and hammer drill and used the tapcon screws.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

I've got adobe walls-- that's mud bricks Some with plaster some with just whitewash. Traditionally you build in a nailing block ( or blocks ) of wood , but sometimes they aren't where you need them. My choice is halfway between that sheet of plywood and the French cleat. Just install 2 nailing strips on the wall--usually some 3/4 material-- and fasten cabinets to that. We use long spiral nails to fasten the cleat to the adobe then conventional screws to fasten the cabinets.

[bill mullin]

I installed some cabs a couple of years ago with concrete block walls.
I predrilled the cabinet hanging holes with a wood bit.
Got uppers in place with my cab jacks, then used a small concrete bit and hammer drill and used the tapcon screws.

+1.
Depending on how hard the stone is to drill, I might get the holes started with the cabinet up in place, then take it down and finish drilling. An assistant would be helpful.

When drilling into hard stone or concrete, I've found that a medium hammer drill speed seems to work best for making bits last.

[Curt Harms]

A lot of people in Bucks County have purchased plaster-over-stone houses then stripped the exterior plaster expecting large rectangular stone. When they get some of the plaster off they find lots of small uneven stones and lots of mortar between them. If it were me the 3/4" ply would seem like a winner. You could then put screws where ever they would hold well. I'd be skeptical about lining up several feet of narrowish french cleat and having every fastener make a secure connection. Masonry houses have their advantages. Ease of renovation doesn't seem like one of those advantages.

[Ed Peters]

bolted and glued to the existing walls. I would cut the plywood to the size of the bank of cabinets minus 2" on each dimension. Attach it to the wall making it plumb and level, carefully setting the top edge about 3/4" down from the intended top of the finished cabinets. Then, allow the cabinet tops and bottoms to extend beyond the back panel by a strong 3/4". Do the same for any exposed end panels. This will conceal the backer panel. You can then use the overhanging top panel as a temporary helper allowing it to rest on the pre-levelled and positioned plywood backer until the unit is firmly attached.

A suggestion before you begin cutting the material for your cabinets. Consider a 14" depth for your uppers rather than the more standard 12" depth. That 2" makes a world of difference.

Ed

[Dean Karavite]

Ed, thank you very very much. I like this idea.

Question please to Ed or others - when screwing a cabinet into this plywood backing, what type screw/fastener would you recommend and how many?

[Matt Stiegler]

Dean, I've got no answers for you, just the sympathies of another owner of NW Philly stone.

[Dean Karavite]

Isn't it the truth Matt? Almost everything we want to do in these houses has a twist and it is never ever covered in any books, manuals, TV shows or magazines. Installing a spigot in the back yard was a major deal. Most people have to drill through a little wood or maybe brick. But nooooooo, not us. 24" of solid rock and this stuff is hard. My plumber wanted $450 to do this. I decided I would do it myself. I could not find anywhere to rent a big enough hammer drill with a 24" long 3/4" bit for under $250, and then they told me if I broke the bit it would cost me over $100. Friends suggested I use a shorter bit and drill from both sides. Yea, like that's going to work out well for me. I paid the plumber.

On a positive note I talked to a local contractor about this. He uses a variety of methods described here and to date has had nobody call him with cabinets that came crashing to the floor.