Epoxy Bonehead Mistake

[Craig Parker]

Hi All,
I have been lurking in the background until now but I'm ready to do my first post on the SMC! I'm in need of advice because of a bonehead mistake involving epoxy. I'm making a end table which has 16 mortise and tenon joints and because I thought I didn't have enough time to use PVA, I using epoxy for the first time. I masked each joint with blue tape but when I took off the tape after drying for 24 hours, the epoxy had seeped under the tape and left unsightly marks around the joints. In retrospect, I think I made three mistakes:
1. didn't add filler to the epoxy
2. used too much epoxy per joint
3. used too much clamping. I didn't apply much using band clamps but apparently too much!
So... do I paint the table (and use it in my shop!) and chalk it up to experience and build another or does anyone have a fix for this? Also, any tips with epoxy would be greatly appreciated!

Craig

[Jim McFarland]

1st, welcome to the Creek!

No experience to help with your current problem, but consider using Waxilit in the future. I put some around holes where I was gluing dowels and worked well keeping epoxy off the wood for future finishing. I used DEET (fuel drying additive containing methyl alcohol) for clean-up.

Bought mine from LV:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32092&cat=1,43415,43440

I've never tried it, but I have read epoxy will release when heated so you may be able to use a heat gun to release the joints, then plane/sand off a few thou to get to unaffected wood. Saying this w/o knowing tolerances you have in your project and whether you would miss a few thou around each of the joints. Also sounds like a lot of work so there's nothing wrong with a black end table!

[Peter Quinn]

Welcome Craig. Have you tried acetone? Don't know its effect on cured epoxy, might be worth a try. Epoxy is my last resort unless its water proof properties are necessary. Maybe sanding or careful work with a card scraper, then using a finishing schedule that involves a glaze and toner for an antique look might obscure any spots but allow the piece to be mostly clear coated?

I find most complicated assemblies can be broken down into subassemblies that can be handled within yellow glue's open time. Its a rare piece of work that must be glued up in one big chunk. Adding 10%-15% water to tite bond III extends its open time a bit without affecting strength, which may help.

Good luck. Have any pics? Wood workers LOVE pics!

[Dewey Torres]

Craig,
I think your mistake was using epoxy all together. For MT joints PVA might have been to fast but next time I would suggest a different slow setting glue. Pastic resin for example. Also glue up big projects like these in stages...never at once and try not to bite off more that you can chew. Glue ups can teach you (and me) some very good lessons. Be careful when you apply the finish such that you get a nice project in the end. Creekers will help you fix it. Pics please.;)

[keith ouellette]

hi craig,

Can the affected areas near the joints be sanded in a way that removes the epoxy but doesn't change the way the parts look to much. I had a similar problem once and actually scrapped and sanded away the epoxy but it was only on a few spots of an old chair I took apart and re finished.

On a side note:
I have taped many types of things with many types of tape and no matter how good the tape, if it wasn't a smooth non porous surface there was bleeding. every time I tried to tape off un finished wood paint would bleed under the wood. Just a thought for next time.

[Mike Cruz]

I would try using a scraper. Take your time and I would think you could get it off. WCS, you create a divot around each joint, but as it stands, you'd be using this thing in the shop anyway.

I would agree to not use epoxy in the future. But try a nice sharp scraper to try to fix this issue.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Try a flat razor, the ones for box cutters, and scrape/cut the epoxy away. You can then use the razor like a small card scraper. Works pretty good. I don't know what wood you using, but the tight grained woods resist gouging from the razor blade better. That may work better than painting. I HATE to paint anything.....
I found out the hard way that epoxy dissolves tape sticky stuff too.... AND I suffer from too-much-glue-itus too.

[Craig Parker]

Hi All,
I took a few photos to show the problem I am facing. Thanks for all the ideas - heat (heat gun), acetone, sanding and scraping. I will reseach using heat to disassemble the joint because if it works, it would be easier to sand the parts. If that doesn't work, I will try acetone and then sanding/scraping.
Some very good points were made about small managable glue ups, other glues (diluted titebond III and plastic resin), not using tape and using Waxilit stop epoxy from surrounding surfaces. This helps alot.

Craig

[Mike Cruz]

Not that the heating etc may not work, but before disassembling the whole thing, try scraping...with a scraper or razor. I have a hard time imagining that it should be that difficult to remove. Certainly easier than taking it apart and cleaning out the joints...

[Carroll Courtney]

Welcome to the Creek.I have never used epoxy before so I have no experence using it.But,I just don't see a fix (sanding,scraping,short of painting)since it has been absorb into the wood.Maybe you can take some 1/4 wood,bead it(1/4 beading bit) and wrap some 1/4X1/4 around each joint on the outside that is expose to the viewers.To be positive,take this as a learning lesson and which will help yourself and others here what to watch out for when using epoxy for joinery.Thanks for posting,thats how we learn from each other,by posting our bonehead mistakes.By now I should be a professor if I learn from the mistakes that I have made----Carroll

[Mike Lipke]

Can't help with this problem, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned hide glue. It is one of the oldest glues around, and it is still popular because of the long work time.

[Conrad Fiore]

Craig,
Don't think you'll ever be able to break the joint without breaking the parts. How had you planned on finishing the item? If it was going to be clear coated, I would suggest you go ahead as was suggested and scrape all the areas. Then take some mineral spirits and wet the areas to see how different the reworked areas look compared to the rest of the wood.

[Bruce Haugen]

if for no other reasons, as Mike mentioned, it has a long open assembly time (liquid hide anyway) and it cleans up with water. The stuff has been used for thousands of years.

Bruce

[Bill Spievak]

I guess I am one of the few that has had a similar situation with epoxy. Mine was with 2 chairs. It took me a full week to get the epoxy squeeze out and drips and staining out of the chairs to the point that I could finish them, and then I had to use some dye in shellac to cover some that I didn't, or couldn't, get. I didn't work on the chairs constantly, I just couldn't stand it. When my patience would wear thin I move to something else.

My approach: I used a series of very sharp chisels, varing sizes for the different size drips and runs. I had to keep the chisels sharp so they would cut the epoxy and not dig into the wood, in my case quarter sawn red oak. Then I used a cabinet scraper to get even more and to smooth the damage left by the chisels, yes, there was some. Finally, went to sanding and then more scrapping in the corners and where the joints met.

Even after all that I still had to mix up dye and shellac after finishing in order to even out some of the color where the epoxy has soaked deep into the oak's pores.

[Craig Parker]

Hi Bill,
My epoxy seems to have penetrated deeply into the wood. I had not thickened the epoxy with filler because I thought the joint didn't need it. I was wondering if I should have thickened the epoxy to help prevent seepage/squeeze out? Do you use a filler? always using a filler when using epoxy?

Craig

[Paul Atkins]

Maybe you could finish the whole chair with epoxy. Sounds a bit crazy, but it will all match and will be waterproof.

[Joe Jensen]

If you finish with a clear finish, it will likely be close.

The idea to use epoxy as a "seal" coat would work too. Mostly the wood looks like varnish or shellac spilled on it.

If you do want something other than a clear finish, seal it all and then stain over that.

Doesn't look catastrophic to me

[Wayne Cannon]

Heating will soften epoxy, making scraping and sanding a less onerous task.

Without fillers or a special formulation, epoxy is pretty runny initially and inflexible when cured -- not very suitable as an adhesive for most tasks (in my opinion), especially for wood and other materials that move. Instead of messing around with fillers, I use System Three's "SilverTip GelMagic" which is especially formulated as an adhesive for woodworking, in that it will not sag or run and is tougher for wood movement.
http://www.systemthree.com/p_st_gelmagic.asp