Honing guides

[Harold Burrell]

I have been looking for chisel and iron sharpening systems. Is the Veritas Mk II that much better than the "Sharpening System"?

And...are there any other brands out there that compare to these?

[Wayne Hendrix]

I have been looking for chisel and iron sharpening systems. Is the Veritas Mk II that much better than the "Sharpening System"?

And...are there any other brands out there that compare to these?

I just bought the Mk.II My decision was based on the difference in the jigs to set the blade. I also had a 10% off coupon to Woodcraft that helped narrow the price gap however.

[Casey Gooding]

I like the Mk. II a lot. Easy to use and solidly built. You really can't go wrong with it.

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

The Mk I doesn't work worth a damn if you don't install the leather pad (DAMHIKT). The Mk II is very straightforward but I find the grit from my 220 waterstone tends to get trapped behind the eccentric roller, and generally I don't use the thing enough. I ought to more, and it is magical on shoulder planes, but more frequently I just do it by hand.

[Don Dorn]

I have the standard side clamping jig using a small board with stops but the Mk II is on my list. The system I have works well enough, but the Mk II jig sure looks foolproof and seems a whole lot more versitle than the side jig. This is a thread I intend to keep an eye on.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Harold

There is no such thing as the "perfect" honing guide. Every design has to accept compromises and limitations. Some swear by side clamping designs such as the Eclipse or the Kell (various types available). And others prefer the down-clamped designs, such as Veritas. That said, the Veritas Mk II is the best and most flexible design available at this time. In addition to the basic honing guide, the Veritas Mk II also has accessories for skew blades and camber honing.

I prefer to freehand when I can, yet I own and use several different honing guides (Veritas, Eclipse, Kell, Sharp Skate) as there are times when each is invaluable. As a complete package, the Veritas stands head-and-shoulders above the rest.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Baker SD]

I have the MKII and have one problem. On a couple of chisels I got carried away and polished the backs to mirror finish. Now the MKII has a hard time holding them square as I sharpen the bevel; they are just too slippery.
James

[David Gendron]

I do have a few honing guides but alwais go back to the MKII! It work realy well! One thing you have to be careful, is when using the camber roller, go easy on it because you will put hell of a camber on you iron! for light camber, I just use the regular roller and use some finger pressure on each side of the balde and it work great!

[David Gendron]

A tric here, double sided tape on the jig jaw, it work great also for realy narrow chisels!

[Sam Takeuchi]

I think for narrow chisels, side clamping guide has better grip and stability. For everything else, MKII works great.

[Ravi Narasimhan]

I've been using a Mk II for a couple of weeks. I've had mixed success sharpening a few plane irons. After taking precautions to insert the blades square to the alignment guide and properly tightening the screws, the blade edges don't lie flat on a granite surface plate. When I go to wet/dry and waterstones, the bevel wears unevenly and I have to check frequently and correct it. Cambering is a crapshoot. I don't want to invest in the camber roller when I'm uncertain about the rest of the undeniably nice looking tool. I'm looking at myself for bad technique for now but am starting to wonder if I got a bad unit. Unfortunately, I lost the receipt so a return or exchange is not likely.

[Derek Cohen]

the blade edges don't lie flat on a granite surface plate.

Hi Ravi

Here's what I want you to try ...

Inset and set up this blade again. Set the gauge+blade down on the granite surface plate as if you were going to hone the blade on this surface.

Now adjust the blade with the hold down screws by tightening/loosening one or other side until the blade is flush with the surface of the plate. Can you do this?

If you cannot, then return the honing guide. Lee Valley will not make a fuss. They have the best customer service in the world. No lie.

If you can do this, that is, get the blade flush, then you have learned a lesson in tuning and using the MkII.

It never ceases to amaze me that so many expect a honing guide to work straight away. A honing guide simply replaces your hand. It does not (should not) replace your brain. Always hone a few strokes after set up, then check the scratch pattern, and adjust the side pressure until it is honing the way you want. This is no different to what you would do if honing freehand.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sam Takeuchi]

Did you buy a used MKII? If it was, roller might be worn and tilting on one side. I have one worn roller I subsequently replaced. Grit ate away inside of the roller over time (where shaft runs through). I replaced it with a new one a few months ago and it's all cool now.

If it's new, have it replaced. That's not the way it should be.

[Roger Savatteri]

I've been using a Mk II for a couple of weeks. I've had mixed success sharpening a few plane irons. After taking precautions to insert the blades square to the alignment guide and properly tightening the screws, the blade edges don't lie flat on a granite surface plate. When I go to wet/dry and waterstones, the bevel wears unevenly and I have to check frequently and correct it. Cambering is a crapshoot. I don't want to invest in the camber roller when I'm uncertain about the rest of the undeniably nice looking tool. I'm looking at myself for bad technique for now but am starting to wonder if I got a bad unit. Unfortunately, I lost the receipt so a return or exchange is not likely.
.

In all likelihood, Lee Valley would still exchange the unit if you would explain your issue.

.

[John Coloccia]

I personally like the side clamping guides over the older style Veritas guide (in fact the older style ones are my least favorite honing guide!). I'm starting to warm up to the MKII, though. I don't like that I have to use the jig in order to ensure the iron's square. With the side clamping guides, it's automatically square.

I also do a lot of small carving plane irons, with a LOT of camber. The side clamping guide with the thin roller is better suited to these kinds of things. Fortunately, the side clamping guide is cheap...$15, I think. I would personally buy a MKII and the side clamping guide, and figure it all out later. I would NOT buy the standard Veritas guide...I don't think the original one is thought out very well at all.

[Ravi Narasimhan]

Derek, Roger, Sam:

Yes, I have tried doing fine adustments with the bevel on a granite surface plate as well as on a piece of good-quality glass lit from behind to show gaps. So far, I have not been able to get the bevel to lie flat and have been trying to compensate with pressure on the blade while on the abrasives. I haven't ruled out operator error on my part. I hope to ask the instructor at my class today for some advice. I will also have access to many more plane irons there for test-fitting to see if the problem it is reproducible (location of problem and magnitude) or not.

I bought the Mk II new from Woodcraft. The local store seems quite reputable but they do remind customers to hold on to the receipt in case of problems. I'd feel awkward going in with a used tool and no paperwork and asking for accommodation. But if there's no alternative, I will see what I can work out with them.

[Rob Lee]

(snip)
I bought the Mk II new from Woodcraft. The local store seems quite reputable but they do remind customers to hold on to the receipt in case of problems. I'd feel awkward going in with a used tool and no paperwork and asking for accommodation. But if there's no alternative, I will see what I can work out with them.


Hi Ravi -

No worries - we made it, we'll take it back...we'll ship you a new one, and instructions for returning the one you have. We pay the return shipping as well...

Just email me directly at rlee@leevalley.com , and I'll get it done.

Cheers -

Rob

[John Powers]

I think keeping the chisle square in the MK II is a reasonable knock. The jaws should be textured or something. I know your not supposed to tighten with anything but fingers but I think keeping the thing square is problematic. Personally I'd exhaust all possiblibilities with a side clamping jig before buying anything else.

[Sean Hughto]

A lot of curmudgeonly types will tell you that: "You don't need no steenkin honing guides, learn to do it by hand!" There's something to that, and indeed there are lots of handtools that pretty much must be sharpened by hand - so sooner or later you may be developing hte hand skills anyway.

All that said, I like honing guides for chisel and plane blade sharpeing as it is quick and easy. I've had the Mk 1 since long before the Mark 2 was available. It always worked fine for me, and I often still use it. The Mark 2 is great. I like the cambered roller for plane blade a lot. The eclipse is fine too. In short, they all work well, though like any tool, you may need to learn their limits and how to use them effectively. When a good quality saw doesn't track a line in a beginner's hands, we don't usually assume it's a bad saw. I'd suggest honing guides are similar in that respect.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I haven't tried this yet, but I've been thinking about gluing a piece of hard rubber on clamping jaw. Something hard enough that it wouldn't move or twist, but soft enough to compress slightly and clamp over tool evenly. Narrow chisels less than 3/8" have always been a hit and miss for me. I don't particularly want to free hand those either. The toughest chisel I have so far to sharpen is 3mm one. If I can get this hard rubber clamping to work, it would make it a lot easier.

[David Keller NC]

OK - So I'll add my $0.02 (and worth probably less than that) to this thread:

I have just about every honing guide you can think of, including the Mk II, and used it extensively for sharpening before I took up carving. Now, I generally do not use any honing guides for anything - learning to correctly shape and sharpen a carving V-tool or a #11 gouge makes free-handing a straight chisel or a plane blade look really, really easy by comparison.

But failing taking up carving and spending the time to learn to do free-hand honing really well, guides are invaluable. The Mk II is, in my opinion, hands-down the best all-around guide, but it does have a few drawbacks.

Specifically, if you're honing an antique hand-made chisel (most of us own a few of these), the back may not be parallel to the face of the chisel, in which case the square-registering tang on the Mk II will not result in a bevel that's square to the stone. Secondly, the MK II that I have is not wide enough to accomodate some of the L-N blades - particularly the large scraper plane blade.

I don't consider these two issues design defects - it's impossible to design one honing guide that will be optimal for all jobs. In that regard, though, the Mk II is easily the one with the broadest possible applicability to various edge tools.

[Michael Peet]

I'll throw another +1 on the pile for the Mark II. I consider myself a noob and have no difficulty getting planes, spokeshaves, and chisels to arm-hair-shaving sharpness with this jig.

The only limitation I have encountered is some chisels may be too thick for the jig.

Mike

[Ravi Narasimhan]

Followup: I asked my course instructor re: my Mk-II. It appears that my problems are most likely caused by my irons being somewhat out-of-square. We reground one of them on a wheel and tried it in the Mk-II on a surface plate. The edge looked good on the plate. He also gave me some tips on not overcorrecting when I see certain things during the honing process. So, I'm going to work on technique and assume that the Mk-II is fine.

Rob: Thank you for the kind offer. I don't think I'll need to return the unit as the problem lies elsewhere.

[James Owen]

....I bought the Mk II new from Woodcraft. The local store seems quite reputable but they do remind customers to hold on to the receipt in case of problems. I'd feel awkward going in with a used tool and no paperwork and asking for accommodation. But if there's no alternative, I will see what I can work out with them.

Ravi,

A receipt is NOT necessary to return or exchange things at Woodcraft: the point of sale computer stores purchase history for the past 3 or 4 years. Your purchase can be easily looked up. Furthermore, except for power tools, Woodcraft has a 90 day return policy....

James
(a Woodcraft employee)

[Derek Cohen]

Followup: ... It appears that my problems are most likely caused by my irons being somewhat out-of-square.....

Just for reference, blades that are out-of-uniform-thickness (more common with bevelled chisel blades than modern plane blades) are just as difficult to hone square on a side clamping guide such as the Eclipse.

The Eclipse (and others of similar design) has two reference points: on the upper section there is a broad flat area. The front of the blade rests on this in the same way as the blades on a Veritas. The only difference is that the clamping is from the side rather than the top.

Three guides: Sharp Skate, Veritas Mk II, and Eclipse
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Guidecomparison.jpg

The lower section of the Eclipse is where one will hold chisels. There is a cut out on each side that sandwiches the side bevels of the blade. The registration here is the back of the blade - with is the preferred registration for sharpening in my opinion. However, if the side bevels are not an even, or near-even thickness, such that the back of the blade is not forced against the registration area, then you will end up with an out-of-square hone.

The other cause of out-of-square honing on the Eclipse is when the registration surfaces are themselves out-of-parallel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Don Dorn]

Just a quick comment Derek. Keep the posts coming as you obviously spend allot of time through photography in making your point. Just want you to know that it's appreciated and I learn allot from your posts.

As to the jigs - I'm still in for a Mk II very soon. I think between that and the elipse that I have, all but a very few situaitons would be covered.

[Roger Benton]

another vote for the mkII. ( i also sprung for the cambered roller )
i have a side clamping guide, i now use it to loan to friends....
the best part about the mkII is the precise repeatability of angles/squareness.
The micro bevel feature is a huge plus.
i have found a curious issue however- when using the cambered roller while honing certain sized blades it is possible to scrape the sides and adjustment knob of the guide on your sharpening surface. Luckily I found this out while re-forming a bevel on some 280# sandpaper and not on my water stones. strange....

[Scott Vincent]

Just have to comment on Rob Lees' Great Service!! It make me even happier when I buy from Lee Valley knowing that they stand behind their goods. Ive heard it alot, but its great to see it. Way to go.
Oh yeahI use the side clamping, cheap, versatile and easy to camber. I have a digital angle guide so it sets my angle every time.
Scott

[Mark Lawrence]

I have the original Veritas jig. Is the MKII worth gettingif I have the original?

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

Rob: Thank you for the kind offer. I don't think I'll need to return the unit as the problem lies elsewhere.

Ahhh - it was software problem then ....:D:D.

No worries at all - even if there isn't a problem with a product - feel free to call our service folks... their jobs depend on having calls to answer... it's not an imposition!

Cheers -

Rob

[Rob Lee]

I have the original Veritas jig. Is the MKII worth gettingif I have the original?


Mark -

Shameful secret time...

I have the MKI, and do not have the MKII...

I like the way the MKI works better....but that's what I've used for a long time...

If I were you - I'd buy an inexpensive side clamp guide, and save my money for other things...

Be glad to suggest the other things....:D

Cheers -

Rob

[Mark Lawrence]

Thanks Rob ...and I do have a side clamping guide as well.

[Todd Bin]

I just posted this in a similar thread, but the best sharpening jig I have used is the Blum sharpening box. It turns the whole idea upside down. My experience with it has been really positive. You can easily sharpen small chisels, wide plane blades and it is the only jig you can use to sharpen a router plane blade.

http://www.blumtool.com/pages/sharpeningjig.html

[Mike Brady]

There is talk of side-clamping honing guides coming from two esteemed North American plane makers in the new year. Don't throw anything you have away just yet.

[Thomas Pender]

I have the MK II and the eclipse and like Jim Koepke says, my hands.

The other night I was trying to use the MK II on a decent 1" chisel. For some reason it only wanted to sharpen the every edge of the bevel and the sharpened edge looked terrible once I removed my glasses and looked several times - I mean I used every grit waterstone I had from 250 to 8000 (all were flat) and could not make it work. Then I tried freehand and although I nicked the 8000 a few times I got the chisel real sharp - plenty good enough for use.

That inspired me to freehand all of my stuff needing sharpening - several LV plane blades, e.g., my LA Jack, , BU Jack, BU Jointer, BU Smoother, my Block, and even my medium shoulder plane (which works well on the MK II provided it is square). I got them sharper than before or so it seems to me. The problem seems to be I cannot get the entire bevel to lie flat on the stone with the MK II or at least not enough of it and I do by hand. (I have always sharpened by Scrub blade by hand - cannot figure how to make the jig work on that curve.)

So, I am wondering what I am doing wrong. But I do note that I need to run it across the stone fewer times with my hands than with the MK II or eclipse. BTW - I always try to be real precise about setting up the steel to be sharpened in the jig, but they do move.

Also BTW - this is a darn good thread - it addresses something that probably frustrates many of us.


Tom

[Sean Hughto]

Hmm, it shouldn't be that hard. You must be doing something fundamentally wrong in setting up or using the jig. It's hard to say without seeing you in action or knowing more. If only the very edge was contacting the stone, then you needed to lengthen the amount of blade projecting from the guide, or lower the guide.

[Sam Takeuchi]

If MK.II is making only the edge of your chisels touch the stone, you are doing something wrong. Either your angle registration is off, forgot to set micro bevel knob back to 0 degree, roller is attached on wrong position, bevel angle of your chisel lower than what it's supposed to be or stone is concave. Assuming your stones are flat, probably one of the above reasons.

If you are digging into the stone while freehand sharpening, it is caused by inconsistent movement of your arms. Most likely you are rounding the edge, kind of like micro bevel. Unless you can create somewhat consistent bevel freehand, it'll get rounder and realistic edge angle gets larger. It's not a good thing.

If you are going to freehand, but don't hollow grind, try to hold the blade either diagonally relative to stone length, or hold the blade side ways. It'll prevent blade from rocking on the bevel and provides more stable platform to work on. A bit of practice, you should be able to get pretty solid bevel and should be able to produce pretty consistent edge.

[Kent A Bathurst]

There is talk of side-clamping honing guides coming from two esteemed North American plane makers in the new year. Don't throw anything you have away just yet.

I have this (actually both sizes) from Garrett Wade

http://www.garrettwade.com/images/250/62J0212.jpg

Never used the Mk II - so no input on it. Had the Vertas "sharpening system" first - maybe that is the Mk I? Anyway - it was simply the wrong tool for my Japanese chisels - could not make it work well with their profiles, and getting things squared up on it was a problem (for me).

Made a wood gauge block for setting angle with these guides - they work just fine for me - really like them - very well made. When I bought my first guide from GW, they only offerred the standard size. N/A for wide plane blades. When the long size came out, I got that too. No need for both IMO - can't remember last time I used the std. Also - I recently got the Beall Tilt Box, so not using my wood gauge block anymore - the Beall makes it too easy.

[Josh Bowman]

After taking precautions to insert the blades square to the alignment guide and properly tightening the screws, the blade edges don't lie flat on a granite surface plate.

I put the blade in the gauge and flip it so I can hold a steel ruler against the wheel and the blades bevel and look for light under the ruler at the bevel. You would be surprise how accurate that is. All the same you got to hone a little after even that to check. I find if I'm off a little, that I have to slide the blade quite a bit to move the honed area on the bevel.

[Josh Bowman]

I have found with my MK II that if I just set it up with the gauge and hone it until it's sharp, that the next time I hone the set up is dead on. The only time I have problems is when I try to copy the angle that was previouly on the blade.

[Mike Brady]

I actually have the Kell guide (narrow) too. I like it "OK" but it provides no good place to really grab onto it, and it is out of balance if you try to put a long paring chisel into it. 90% of the chisel is cantilevered out behind the guide. I think its design makes the leading edge dive into the stickier stones like fine water stones as you push forward. In other words, thjis seems to be a pull-stroke only jig. I have dubbed a few edges because of that. It is beautifully made but flawed in design, in my opinion. Going back to my OP, I think there will be some good alternatives coming after the first of the year. There were photos of several protypes from two manufacturers on another forum a few weeks ago.