Narex Mortise Chisel

[David Romano]

I just received a Narex mortise chisel from Highland today. I typically make bridal joints because I don't have a good way to make accurate mortises (I try to avoid the router whenever possible) so I thought I'd try chopping them by hand. I planned to drill out the waist then use the chisel to quickly clean it up. Well, I was counting on the cross section of the chisel being square, as the description said that it maintains it's full profile along its length. I was disappointed to see that the profile is trapaziodal and actually tapers along its length.

I'm new to mortise chisels, so maybe I'm missing something. This profile makes no sense to me. With the trapazoidal shape, it would be hard to keep the tool straight as it is driven and with the way it tapers, the width of the edge gradually reduces each time it gets re-ground. Clearly I need some advice.

Thanks
David

[Brian Kent]

You pound the heck out of a mortice chisel. If it were completely square is would be stuck each time. The Trapezoidal shape actually makes it work. Try it - you'll like it.

By the way, I never drill first. Don't need to with these chisels.

Brian

[David Gendron]

Brian is right, the Ray Ilse I have , have a similar shape as discribe from you and they work realy well!

[David Romano]

Thanks guys, I guess I have a few things to learn.

David

[Scott Burright]

Not sure if this is what you were asking, but... the chisel will undercut the ends of your layout if you hold it vertical and chop right into your line. Yep, you will get a trapezoidal mortise.

The chisel wants to plunge in at an angle that is the bisection of the bevel angle. So to make it go straight down, you lean the handle just a little bit away from the waste side.

You can also make your cut a good 1/8" away from the end of your layout and then pare to the line.

I hope I understood your question right. :D

[martin morissette]

I just got my set yesterday and it looks awesome for the price. At first, I did not want to dish out 50$ for one mortise chisel at LV and finaly got a Sheffield at Langevin et Forest at 30 $ It was one of my worst purchase. The handle keeps coming off, the blade thickness is thinner than the regular 3/8 bevel edge chisel from LV and it is supposed to be a mortise chisel ! Anyway, the Narex chisels looks tough and I am looking forward to hone them and use them. They look sturdy enough to work though hard wood.

When I will prep them for work, I will post my comments in this thread. But so far, I will buy anything that LV gets from Narex. Go on their website (http://proe.cz/narexby2/index.php?Lang=EN&p). They have a wonderful line of bevel edge chisels coming. I am drooling already

[John Stankus]

This is something that I am a little confused on. My understanding of mortise chisels from when I took Rob Cosman's class in Calgary last summer, is that you want the side edge of the mortise chisel square to the back. The side edge provides the reference edge as you cut the mortise so the edge of the mortise is straight. With a tapered side on the chisel the side would be scalloped or sawtooth in profile and you would have to come back and clean up the edge. I didn't have any problem with the square profile (LN) mortise chisel getting stuck. Most of the other mortise chisels seem to have a tapered profile. The square profile seemed to work giving me(a neander neophyte) a pretty nice mortise.

Is it just a different technique with the different profiles?

John

[John Coloccia]

The taper only maters if you think you're cutting with the sides of the chisel or the bevel.

Here's how a mortise chisel is designed to be used:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLMwWkeB9oE

The cutting edge is always cutting and levering so it's the cutting edge that matters. The taper just make it easier to release the chisel when it's really pounded in and I personally think it makes it easier to lever also.

I'm really not sure why the taper disappeared though I'm guessing it was a matter of cost somewhere along the way.

[David Weaver]

Is it just a different technique with the different profiles?

John

Technique is the same. I haven't noticed a real functional difference in shallow mortises like you'd use on cabinet parts. Maybe it is a little tighter and maybe there is more of a difference with sticking in the mortise with the non-tapered chisels in a deep mortise, or maybe certain woods do it more. I haven't really noticed.

Still, given the choice, I would prefer a tapered mortise chisel because I can't think of a good reason that the chisel needs to be tight and square when the widest part of a tapered mortise chisel still cleans the side of the mortise, anyway, when you're levering. (there is no sawtooth effect).

The LN chisels are not tapered because they are sash mortising chisels. Raise your hand if you've done any sash mortising with a chisel....

[Andrae Covington]

The taper only maters if you think you're cutting with the sides of the chisel or the bevel.

Here's how a mortise chisel is designed to be used:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLMwWkeB9oE

The cutting edge is always cutting and levering so it's the cutting edge that matters. The taper just make it easier to release the chisel when it's really pounded in and I personally think it makes it easier to lever also.

I'm really not sure why the taper disappeared though I'm guessing it was a matter of cost somewhere along the way.

Yeah what he said. Also I'd add that when I start out at the surface level, I make light chops about every 1/8" or so. The slight trapezoidal shape of the chisel really doesn't make any meaningful difference in the side walls over such a short span, it's effectively square. As I go further down I may spread out more, it depends in part on the density of the wood.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...The LN chisels are not tapered because they are sash mortising chisels. Raise your hand if you've done any sash mortising with a chisel....

If you mean making mortises in stiles and rails to receive muntins/kumiko, then yes, have made a lot of shoji; and I've found in the process (check out Jeff Gorman's web site for a method of following the edge) that I much prefer the trapezoidal Japanese chisels. Among other things, the arises seem to clear out the chips independently of anything I do; and the mortises are nice and straight sided.

My only experience with rectangular mortise chisels led to split wood, which may have been my fault; but I still sold them asap.

Pam

[Frank Drew]

Beveled sides I like, for the reasons given, but I wouldn't like tapered along its length; I'd like my 1/2" chisel to stay 1/2" for all its useful life.

[Shawn Clark]

I'm a noobie so I can't add much to the geometry discussion. But, I just got the same set and BE CAREFUL! I was using them to clean out a dado. I was holding the chisel down by guiding the top with my thumb and SLICE. The side corners of the chisel are not broken and I took off most of my thumbprint on my right hand. Ouch.

[john davey]

This may be a stupid question but is there anything different about sharpening these compared to a normal chisel? Thanks, John

[John Coloccia]

They may be a little harder to get into a honing guide because of their thickness. Personally, I don't hollow grind my mortise chisels though I hollow grind everything else. I'm not sure what the primary bevel is set at on the Narex. I personally like a fairly shallow primary bevel, and then hone something like a 35 or 40 degree micro bevel. I feel that lets me chop deeper, and my impression is I like how it levers better also, but this may just be all in my head. My experience is mostly with my old "pig stickers", and they had a very shallow primary bevel...something like 25 degrees I think, and I liked them very much.

That's just my opinion. In answer to your question, there's nothing you do differently though you may choose to use a different geometry on mortise chisels than on your other chisels as I do. The techniques are the same.

No, it's not a stupid question. A stupid question would be, "What's the proper bevel angle if I want to use these to chip away my concrete front steps?" Another stupid question would be, "These things are like 8 inches long. I only want a 1" deep mortise. what's the best way to cut them so they're the proper length for my mortise?" Recently I described someone as "very young for her age." That wasn't so much stupid as bordering on a Yogi Berra-ism. Yours was a good question :D

[john davey]

Thanks John.....

[Pam Niedermayer]

This may be a stupid question but is there anything different about sharpening these compared to a normal chisel? Thanks, John

Not sure what a normal chisel is, but generally I sharpen the mortise chisels just like my other chisels: flatten the back and sharpen the bevel, remove any burr that may develop. In the case of the mortise chisels, a tiny burr can develop on the side at the arises; so I might swipe the side very lightly on the stone. Under no circumstance do I hollow grind or micro bevel or secondary bevel.

Pam

[David Weaver]

If you mean making mortises in stiles and rails to receive muntins/kumiko, then yes, have made a lot of shoji; and I've found in the process (check out Jeff Gorman's web site for a method of following the edge) that I much prefer the trapezoidal Japanese chisels. Among other things, the arises seem to clear out the chips independently of anything I do; and the mortises are nice and straight sided.

My only experience with rectangular mortise chisels led to split wood, which may have been my fault; but I still sold them asap.

Pam

So even for sash type mortising, they're not that great.

Of the three sets of mortise chisels I have (RI, miyanaga and a partial set of LN), i generally don't use the LNs, though they are plenty tough. I use the miyanagas in small work with good effect, and they have very noticeable trapezoidal grind.

I don't do any traditional japanese woodworking, though, but still prefer the miyanaga chisels to the LNs for small work.

[Pam Niedermayer]

So even for sash type mortising, they're not that great.

Of the three sets of mortise chisels I have (RI, miyanaga and a partial set of LN), i generally don't use the LNs, though they are plenty tough. I use the miyanagas in small work with good effect, and they have very noticeable trapezoidal grind.

I don't do any traditional japanese woodworking, though, but still prefer the miyanaga chisels to the LNs for small work.

I love my small Miyanaga, but the ones I have aren't mortising chisels.

I never tried my rectangular mortisers for shoji, they were all too large, which may have been the problem. That and the pine I used for practicing. Maybe some of those tiny western mortisers would be OK, worth a try if one comes across a few some day.

Pam

[Mario Soldevilla]

shawn, the edges of the chisel need to be sharp and crisp as they shear the side wall of the mortise, in the action of pounding the chisel the bevel forces the chisel backward as it goes down cutting the wall as you go along. so yeah watch those edges they are sharp, but you need them.

[Garrett Ellis]

I'm a noobie so I can't add much to the geometry discussion. But, I just got the same set and BE CAREFUL! I was using them to clean out a dado. I was holding the chisel down by guiding the top with my thumb and SLICE. The side corners of the chisel are not broken and I took off most of my thumbprint on my right hand. Ouch.


shawn, the edges of the chisel need to be sharp and crisp as they shear the side wall of the mortise, in the action of pounding the chisel the bevel forces the chisel backward as it goes down cutting the wall as you go along. so yeah watch those edges they are sharp, but you need them.

I've noticed the same thing recently... I have little slices on my first fingers and thumbs from the sharp edges of the mortise chisels I just got.

Am I just using bad technique to cause this or does this happen to everyone? Would there be anything wrong with wrapping tape or something around the tool to protect my fingers from the edges?

[Shawn Clark]

shawn, the edges of the chisel need to be sharp and crisp as they shear the side wall of the mortise, in the action of pounding the chisel the bevel forces the chisel backward as it goes down cutting the wall as you go along. so yeah watch those edges they are sharp, but you need them.

Mario:
I'm still have a lot to learn about neander ways, so I want to be sure I understand. I get that the back shank edges need to be sharp for the chisel to function properly. But I'm not following why the "front" edges of the shank should be sharp. If I understood the previous discussions, the shank tapers slightly toward the front. If this is true I don't understand how this edge is involved in the cut.

Thanks. I have much to learn.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Mario:
I'm still have a lot to learn about neander ways, so I want to be sure I understand. I get that the back shank edges need to be sharp for the chisel to function properly. But I'm not following why the "front" edges of the shank should be sharp. If I understood the previous discussions, the shank tapers slightly toward the front. If this is true I don't understand how this edge is involved in the cut.

For mortises deeper than the bevel, you must cut with the bevel underground. I'm no expert, but think the sharp front arises help move the chisel deeper.

Pam