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Michael Peet
11-03-2009, 8:07 AM
Hey all,

I have this 1 1/4" Marples chisel I got at the borg before I knew any better. At first it was pretty easy to keep sharp, but now after a bunch of sharpenings it seems like it will simply not hold an edge. I can get it to arm-hair-removing-sharp easily, but the moment I put it to wood the edge just folds over. I'm talking doug fir and no mallet.

I have never used a grinder on it - only waterstones and sandpaper - so I don't think I could have done anything to remove its temper. Is it possible it was just case hardened and I have worked through the hard layer?

Any ideas?

Mike

Prashun Patel
11-03-2009, 8:09 AM
I have those BORG Marples chisels. They work fine for me. I assume yr sharpening to a 'regular' 25? Are you micro beveling?

Does seem like the temper's been compromised...

george wilson
11-03-2009, 8:29 AM
That is very strange,Michael. I have an old 1964 set of Marples,which is my primary set of all the sets I own( haven't finished putting new handles on my Pfiel set yet!).

I hope Marples hasn't succumbed to making them too soft like the rumor I heard a while back. I heard that because of fear of liability,of someone getting a broken off steel splinter in their eye,some chisel makers were making them much softer.

Without special equipment,the best thing for you to do is take a new Nicholson smooth file(a triangular will do.) See how easily the chisel will file. If it's decent,you should hardly get it to file at all. The type,and condition of the file is important in this test. If your file has shiny teeth at at all,or is of an inferior make( less than a Nicholson or Grobet),and not a smooth file( a smooth file will file harder steel than a coarser file),you won't get a valid test.

If your chisels file easily,they are way too soft.

It is also possible that you just got a bunch of bad chisels,and need to return them. Since all my Marples chisels are at least 30 years old,I have no idea what the new ones may be like.

Sam Takeuchi
11-03-2009, 8:34 AM
I have a set of Marple chisels I got as my first chisel set some years ago. They don't hold edge for worth a crap :) As far as I can gather, a lot of people said they hold reasonably good edge, but I've read some people reporting soft edge as well. Maybe we just got a bad batch of chisels. Mine never had good edge retention. So time to get a real chisel :)

harry strasil
11-03-2009, 8:44 AM
go to the corner chisel post and follow the directions I posted there to reharden and temper your chisels, if after accomplish that and they are too hard and a bit brittle, increase the wifey's oven temp to 450° and if still too hard, go to 500° and it is not necessary to quench after temper heat, just turn off oven and let them cool in oven.

george wilson
11-03-2009, 8:45 AM
Could be that the newer ones are just soft. Sorbys sure are! Get a Pfiel. Narex sets aren't very expensive,and still seem to be good. Hirsch's are good,except they have slightly rounded edges from being buffed to death. You have to flatten their bottoms till the round edge is gone. The same for 2 Cherries,IIRC.

You can buy 1 Pfiel from Woodcraft Supply,just to try. A whole set costs a bit. A whole set of Narex's is probably your safest bet,and are pretty low cost. They,and the Pfiels aren't buffed,either.

John Keeton
11-03-2009, 9:26 AM
Here is another vote for the Narex! For the money, IMO it is the best available. Here is a link (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/narex4-piecechiselset.aspx). Handles aren't the best, but the metal, and the factory grind are exceptional. I had very little work to do getting them ready to use.

george wilson
11-03-2009, 9:38 AM
I am sure that the chisels will warp like crazy if you try to reharden them. They have bevels on 1 side,so the different surface area will cause warping. Maybe if you only hardened the first inch it would be o.k..

Trouble is,if you don't know how to do it correctly,you would be in worse trouble!!!

Bryce Adams
11-03-2009, 10:01 AM
I bought a set of Narex chisels last year and they were un-usable. Primary bevel at 25 degrees with a 27 degree micro-bevel and the edge broke down under light use. Looked like I'd been cutting nails with it. My original problem was in Cocobolo, which I understand is tough on chisels.

I re-ground and re-sharpened at 30 degrees with a 32 degree micro-bevel and tried some very light chopping in white oak. I cut a 1/8" deep mortise with very light tapping with a mallet, and the edge broke down very quickly.

After talking with technical support, I ended up returning the set for a refund.

Later I read about how new chisels often don't hold an edge well, and grinding them down may get to better steel. I did re-grind one with poor results.

Just my experience.

Bryce

Zach England
11-03-2009, 10:04 AM
A general newbie question instead of advice for original poster:

Could this result from the edge getting too hot during power sharpening?

Doug Shepard
11-03-2009, 10:07 AM
My starter set of chisels were Marples. I still use the ones in the 1"-2" range but I switched to LN chisels a while back just because I got tired of trying to keep up with the edge retention. The Marples work well when they're sharp. They just dont stay that way for very long.

Prashun Patel
11-03-2009, 10:07 AM
Could this result from the edge getting too hot during power sharpening?

When the edge gets too hot, the temper of the blade gets compromised, so 'getting too hot' and 'losing temper' do usually mean the same thing for power sharpening.

Julian Nicks
11-03-2009, 10:10 AM
I have the marples chisels and love them for banging out dovetails. I wonder if yours are just not hardened properly as previously stated.

george wilson
11-03-2009, 10:11 AM
O.K.,as usual,completely conflicting info for the original poster to puzzle through!!!!!

My OLD Marples are quite fine,I can't vouch for the new ones. However,from all OTHER reports about the Narex's,they seem to be an excellent bargain at less than $27.00 for a whole set. You'r going to pay that much,or more,just to buy 1 Pfiel to try out.

I have never owned a set of Narex's,but from several comments I remember from this,and other fora,they are recommended,and you won't break your bank. Hirsches are what?,well over $100.00 a set,and their edges are rounded a bit. 2 Cherries about the same.

Zach England
11-03-2009, 10:34 AM
Are we talking about the "Irwin" labeled Marples or the Marples with the black and blue rubber handles?

Michael Peet
11-03-2009, 10:46 AM
Hey, it wouldn't be free advice without conflicting info! :D

Some answers to some of the questions:

In my resharpening efforts I've tried to stay close to the factory bevel, which seems more like 22.5 than 25; on a Veritas jig it was closest to the unlabeled setting between 20 and 25 degrees. So good point - this will result in a weaker edge than the 25 degree angle would. Not using a microbevel either.

This chisel is maybe 5 years old, blue and black plastic handle. I'm not sure I want to put that in the oven, (per the corner chisel thread) right?

I've never used a power sharpening system on it - always by hand with the Veritas jig and either water stones or scary sharp. Can you get it hot enough by hand on sandpaper to ruin the temper?

I don't really have a lot invested in keeping this thing, I was just puzzled at the change. I appreciate everyone's advice and suggestions on new chisels as well.

Cheers!

Mike

george wilson
11-03-2009, 10:50 AM
If the chisel is soft,try using a blunter bevel. Sometimes you just have to figure out how to sharpen certain tools to get the most out of them. You know,chisels can also dull due to being too hard. I don't have time to re read your post. Have you filed the edge?

Michael Peet
11-03-2009, 11:16 AM
I don't have time to re read your post. Have you filed the edge?

Not yet; I'm not at home. I'll have to try this later tonight.

John Coloccia
11-03-2009, 12:05 PM
I have a newer Irwin Marple, maybe a couple of years old. It's an absolutely piece of junk. I started using it as a glue chisel but the corner kept dulling after a couple of joints, so it's not even useful for that. Now all I use it for is to practice free hand sharpening every now and then (I usually use a jig, but I don't want to loose the "touch"). Honestly, I'm thinking of just throwing it out because it seems a shame to waste my nice water stones on that thing.

I hope you figure it out. Maybe a higher bevel angle will work for you.

David Gendron
11-03-2009, 12:18 PM
I have a set of Marple Blue Chips chisels, and they are realy nice chisels! The handles are blue and they are at least 15 years old. it was my first set of chisel way before doing real wood working. To be honest with you, I have a set of LN and still go to my Marple Blue Chips... Or some old Stanley 720 I got from the bay...

Jim Koepke
11-03-2009, 12:43 PM
I only have a few tools by Marples.

My wife would kill me if the one with a plastic handle was put in her oven and left a pile of melted blue goo all over the place.

I sometimes moan a bit when a chisel is purchased for a couple of bucks and it takes more than a few minutes to flatten the back. Imagine if I paid big bucks some of the makers want for new chisels and had to spend time getting them into shape, I would be running for Congress.

When my woodworking hobby began, a few new chisels were bought from the local hardware chain. Back then, they carried Sandvik chisels that seemed pretty good to me at the time. A short time later, the style was changed leaving me with an incomplete set.

Since then, I have bought chisels in groups and singly on eBay. My brother, may God shed blessings on him, will pick up old woodworking tools for me when he is out making his living at estate sales.

So after all the rambling and pinching pennies, my accumulation of chisels has grown quite well from a very frugal investment. Of course, I am a few chisels short of a full set in any one brand, but there are also a lot of duplicates in some of the most used sizes.

Then, what may be the best part, anything that is not to my liking goes in to the beater drawer. Then when the occasion arises where a chisel needs to be used, but I do not want to jeopardize a good one, out come the beaters.

Of course, all this does not solve Michael's original problem other than to suggest that sometimes, a chisel that is old can be every bit as good as a new chisel and often better.

My preference is usually for socket chisels as it is easier to make handles for these when they need replacement.

jim

george wilson
11-03-2009, 4:06 PM
I have some old Eskiltuna Swedish chisels. I have never cared for them myself. they are a bit soft,and these are pretty old.

I think we can all conclude from this thread that NO chisels are any good at all!!!!!!! Therefore,you are totally out of luck!

There have even been bad comments about LN chisels.

I still recommend the Narex. Was there more than 1 negative about them? Too tired to read this thread again.

Jim Koepke
11-03-2009, 6:21 PM
I have some old Eskiltuna Swedish chisels. I have never cared for them myself. they are a bit soft,and these are pretty old.

I think we can all conclude from this thread that NO chisels are any good at all!!!!!!! Therefore,you are totally out of luck!

There have even been bad comments about LN chisels.

I still recommend the Narex. Was there more than 1 negative about them? Too tired to read this thread again.

I think it just goes to show that any tool maker can have an off day or two.

It also shows that different people have different tastes when it comes to tools.

Some people sing the praises of Witherby chisels. I have a lot of them and they are good.

Some people say Buck Brothers are second rate. I have a lot and like them more than I like the Witherbys. This only means they are better in my opinion. They may not be better in someone else's opinion.

I would imagine that Narex must be good chisels or a lot of people would not value them as highly as they do.

One man's "hard to sharpen" chisel is another man's "holds an edge forever" user.

jim

John Keeton
11-03-2009, 6:52 PM
One man's "hard to sharpen" chisel is another man's "holds an edge forever" user.

jimAnd, this really goes to the heart of this topic. One's expectations count a lot. I want to be able to get a good, very sharp, edge on a chisel, but I realize I sacrifice to some degree for that feature. The Narex seem to do very well in taking an edge, and I have not experienced what I would consider premature failure of the edge. If I pound away at a piece of oak with them, they will require touch up more frequently than were I to use them in walnut. Given the difference in price, they compare favorably with my BS chisels - again, given the $$ difference. I would not want to give up my BS, however!:D;)

Michael Peet
11-03-2009, 7:11 PM
I had a chance to try George's suggestion of hitting it with a file and it seemed pretty easy to cut the chisel. I hope I was doing it right.

The second photo shows the mangled edge if you look close. The last photo is after filing. Of course I neglected to get a before shot of the side I filed..

george wilson
11-03-2009, 7:16 PM
If it filed,you were doing it right,and obviously using good,old Nicholsons.

Will the store take them back? I really suggest the Narex's.

Bill HammerII
11-03-2009, 8:01 PM
Me thinks he talking about the 4 pack for 25 bucks set of MArples that depot sells

Michael Peet
11-03-2009, 8:12 PM
If it filed,you were doing it right,and obviously using good,old Nicholsons.

Thought you'd appreciate those ;). Got the box for a buck at an estate sale. Unfortunately there were only two left in it.. :rolleyes:

Probably can't take it back; I don't even remember where it came from. Fortunately it was purchased singly, so I'm not out too much. I will look into the Narexes.

I appreciate the help -

Mike

george wilson
11-03-2009, 8:30 PM
I don't know how much you want to spend. If it's over $100.00,I recommend the Pfiels from Woodcraft. I have a set myself. Also,the Japanese made western style yellow plastic handled chisel set that LV sells is also considered a good set. Their edges aren't beveled enough to get into dovetails is the only complaint I've heard.

If you google Narex,a dealer will show up. Somewhere on the creek,someone posted a link to a Narex dealer. I can't remember where the post was. They were less than $27.00,for a set of 4. AND,they didn't have the black painted handles!!! They were natural wood. I'd really like natural wood better.

phil harold
11-03-2009, 8:33 PM
I have a set of marples blue chips 20+ years old they are decent
Dont hold an edge like some of my old ones
But they are my only full set

george wilson
11-03-2009, 8:41 PM
See,mine are 1964. They are quite hard. No telling about the new stuff.

John Keeton
11-03-2009, 8:54 PM
George, I previously had the Pfeil, as you and I have discussed before. They are great chisels, and I was very pleased with the edge retention. However, I did have trouble clearing tight dovetails with them, and that is the main reason I went with the BS.

george wilson
11-03-2009, 10:23 PM
If I knew a good toolmaker,I might be able to get him to grind more bevel in.:)

I have never used a Blue Spruce,but it bothers me that they don't have a bolster on them. Do the blades have any tendency to sink into the handles ? What is the mechanism that makes no bolster o.k.? IIRC,the handles are plastic impregnated?

Bill HammerII
11-03-2009, 11:18 PM
Hey, it wouldn't be free advice without conflicting info! :D

Some answers to some of the questions:

In my resharpening efforts I've tried to stay close to the factory bevel, which seems more like 22.5 than 25; on a Veritas jig it was closest to the unlabeled setting between 20 and 25 degrees. So good point - this will result in a weaker edge than the 25 degree angle would. Not using a microbevel either.

This chisel is maybe 5 years old, blue and black plastic handle. I'm not sure I want to put that in the oven, (per the corner chisel thread) right?

I've never used a power sharpening system on it - always by hand with the Veritas jig and either water stones or scary sharp. Can you get it hot enough by hand on sandpaper to ruin the temper?

I don't really have a lot invested in keeping this thing, I was just puzzled at the change. I appreciate everyone's advice and suggestions on new chisels as well.

Cheers!

Mike


I've seen the same thing you're talking about happen a few times to other lesser brands. At first you can sharpen a workable edge and after a few times the edge just crumbles under pressure. Ace hardware carried a set with there name on it a few years ago and my helper bought a few. The first day I helped him hone and flatten the back and had to tell him that I was impressed with the way they cut after a little work. However after a about two weeks of service you had to work hard to reach a edge and then it would "blunt" quickly. I eve took a turn helping him resharpen and had the edge blunt after a few like passes cleaning up some pine.

Jim Koepke
11-04-2009, 12:56 AM
Highland woodworking dot com has the 4 and 6 chisel narex sets.

jim

Gregg Feldstone
11-04-2009, 2:24 AM
Are your Maples from England or are they the new ones being made in Asia now? Lee Valley still has some of their English chisels on sale now.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=63260&cat=1,44047&ap=1

Roger Benton
11-04-2009, 12:22 PM
I have the cheap marples set with blue and black handles, i re-did the bevels at 30 degree and use a 32 degree micro bevel. i only use them for the kind of heavy chopping i won't do with my pfeils and they hold up quite well. i suspect flattening the backs has a lot to do with it, so the cutting edge is consistent across the width.

Again though, at the price point the tools are at it is very likely that the alloys differ greatly batch to batch, year to year, etc.

ps- love my pfeil chisels!

John Keeton
11-04-2009, 1:31 PM
I have never used a Blue Spruce,but it bothers me that they don't have a bolster on them. Do the blades have any tendency to sink into the handles ? What is the mechanism that makes no bolster o.k.? IIRC,the handles are plastic impregnated?George, the BS bench chisels are made differently than the dovetail paring chisels. I use the paring chisels for light chopping - per Dave Jeske's approval - and I have noticed any problem. The tang is enclosed in handle and seems to do fine. The bench chisels have a bolster and the handle is impregnated.

Scott Burright
11-04-2009, 1:41 PM
Hi, all. First post.

Just thought I'd throw my observations into the mix in no particular order.

It's true that there's no way to spoil the temper without getting the steel too hot to touch, and there's practically no way to do that by sharpening manually. So it's not that.

I have 3 of these Marples Blue Chip chisels. They are stamped Sheffield, and they don't say "Irwin" anywhere, and so I think they are pre-Irwin. But I bought them just before Irwin got them.

I don't know what the hardness is supposed to be, but I doubt it exceeds 58 HRC, which is to say 57-59. So any file should scratch even a good one.

Lots of things can happen during heat treat that would explain a chisel that holds an edge through a number of sharpenings and then doesn't. I'd suspect that the steel was inadvertently zone hardened or differentially tempered, so that there is a hard edge with softer steel behind it. This is often done on purpose, but of course not like this.

And maybe that's not it at all. It's just hard to say.

I had a similar problem with one of those Marples, a 3/4". After a few cuts, it would blunt. It was forming a tiny burr or wire edge, which you could feel with a thumbnail along the back of the chisel. You just try running your thumbnail off the edge, and you'll feel a little catch if there's a wire edge.

I know that Marples wasn't what it used to be, even before Irwin got them, but this chisel was being outperformed by the lowest-grade black-handled Stanley butt chisels from the Borg.

So I ripped the wire edge off on a honing block, polished the secondary bevel a bit, and tried again. Same deal. Did it again but honed at a higher angle. Same deal. I stuck with this for several cycles... and then it stopped happening.

Hard to say what caused that. Maybe I fixed it by increasing my microbevel angle. Maybe I ran through a little zone of retained austenite or something. All that stuff is over my head. Metal is weird.

So maybe if you grind it back a bit, you'll run through some flawed part in the steel and be back to the good old mediocre stuff.

BTW, for a quick hone on chisels, I use a wooden paddle with some suede-ish leather glued to it, loaded with permatex Valve Grinding Compound. It's silicon carbide, like Norton Crystolon stones. More aggressive than most buffing or honing compounds.

Larry Frank
11-04-2009, 2:03 PM
When I read a thread like this, I always wish that there were a lab that was low cost that could run some hardness tests across the back of the tool. It would answer a lot of questions concerning how or if the tool had been hardened. This is like testing with a file but gives more specific information. Of course, when you saw the hardness results, you would want an analysis to get the type of steel. By the time that you take all of the time to get a chisel tested and figure out what went wrong, you could have purchased some higher quality ones.

I suspect that when the lower cost chisels are heat treated in bulk, that some do not get the proper treatment along all or part of the tool giving some soft spots. The more expensive chisels probably are heat treated more uniformly and tested more frequently. I have some of the older Marples and they have been very good. I also have more recently purchased some LN chisels and they are very good. If I have a problem with the much more expensive LN, I am certain that they will be replaced with little problem while it would be more difficult to get the cheaper ones replaced.

Jim Koepke
11-04-2009, 3:51 PM
When I read a thread like this, I always wish that there were a lab that was low cost that could run some hardness tests across the back of the tool.

Not sure if this is a viable option for many people, but back when I was still in college, our community college had a metallurgy class/shop. They had hardness testing equipment. If done in a friendly manner one might be able to get a chisel or two tested. Most likely they would not want to test a large bunch.

Heck, if one could take the class, it might be possible to test a whole bunch.

jim

george wilson
11-04-2009, 5:01 PM
We had a high class hardness tester at work. It was a Versitron,considered the Cadillac of testers. I don't have one at home shop yet,but having hardened hundreds of tools,I pretty well know what I am doing without one.I intend to get one when a good used one comes along,though,for testing tools I didn't make,especially.

That Versitron cost thousands of dollars new,and I got it in excellent condition at Federal Surplus for $50.00. I don't think they knew what it was. One of the few bargains I did get there,I must say!

Dan O'Sullivan
11-08-2009, 6:03 PM
That Versitron cost thousands of dollars new,and I got it in excellent condition at Federal Surplus for $50.00. I don't think they knew what it was. One of the few bargains I did get there,I must say!

That is a steal my friend. I have always wanted one but the cost was too high.

dan

george wilson
11-08-2009, 6:57 PM
It was pretty crazy. They would price welded bandsaw blades of unknown length at about retail. Some machines were priced way too high,others not. They had brass and aluminum plates out in the back yard pretty reasonable.

They 3 piles 4' high of new white pine shelving out in the rain,under a half baked attempt to cover with tar paper. They wanted too much for it,and it sat there till the stacks disintegrated into tired little heaps. Wasteful fools.