Have to buy a used minivan....what to do?

[Josh Reet]

I apologize in advance for this somewhat pointless long rambling "what should I buy" post. I typically can solve my own problems (or at least come up with better specific questions) than this. But I guess we all have stuff that we get brainlocked over. Some people stress about which tool to buy, some people about which camera to buy, some about which car.

The time has come in my life when I need to get a minivan. Now, this actually doesn't bother me that much because:

A. We had vans the whole time I grew up. they are very handy.
B. I'm tired of not having enough room in the jetta wagon But with an 18 month old, a baby on the way in march, and a 100 lb dog, we just need more room in our vehicle.
C. With a second kid coming, we need the ability to put a carseat in two different cars for various trips where kids need to be in different places at different times.

Here's what we currently own:

-2005 Jetta TDI Wagon, great gas mileage but smaller than you would think for a family.
-1998 Ford Ranger XLT, 4x4 for when we get snow or I (rarely) get to go fishing/snowboarding, runs fine but not a crew cab and front seat carseat placement isn't the best idea.
-1983 VW camper van, selling this as soon as I can get it cleaned up and posted on CL, so disregard for the purposes of this thread

So here's what I'm thinking I could do:

1. Sell/trade jetta and get a late model van

At one point not long ago, I checked into trading my jetta in on an import late model minivan and found that I was still going to have to put $6k into the deal. Which was lame in my book, but that's what you get for trading in. Even if I sold privately, I'd still have to put $2-3k in at the end of the day as far as I can tell. Plus, it wouldn't have solved the "two cars for carseats" thing.

2. Keep jetta and buy a 99-03 range van

There are a lot of Dodge Caravans (or Plymouth Voyager) vans out there in 99-03 year range that run $4-6k for a decent looking one with 80-100k miles. For that money, I could keep the jetta and the truck and just have a third vehicle. Yes, a bit more in insurance, but I'm already paying for a third vehicle because of that silly camper van I own. Now, I'd be buying an 8-10 year old van. But then again, we'd have three vehicles if anything went wrong with it.

3. Buy a 99-03 van and sell the jetta, then sell the truck and buy a 99-03 crew cab truck

If I had a crew cab truck we could get away with owning just two vehicles. My Ranger is great and is a fine size for what I need, but I wouldn't mind getting into an f150 size truck at some point. However, this plan would involve a bunch of pain in my ass since I would essentially have to sell two vehicles and buy two more. Selling and buying cars is annoying to me which is why I put it off all the time (and have a camper van I haven't camped in for 2 years). Also, this leaves me with two 8-10 year old vehicles. Not a dealbreaker, there are many cars that age on the road. But perhaps a pain for reliability. Finally, there aren't a lot of crew cab trucks available in that year/price range, so it might not be the easiest to get something decent or at a good price.

4. Buy a 99-03 van and sell the jetta, then sell the truck and buy a 02-06 4x4 SUV of some sort

Truth be told, I dont HAVE to have a truck. I need something with some ground clearance for when I go fishing up logging roads and 4x4 for when I go snowboarding. But the truck bed is mostly just used for muddy dogs, lumber/whatnot/etc and non messy trips to the dump. I do have an 8x10 utility trailer that could replace most of those uses. And with SUV's being as un-loved as they are, I could probably get a newer nicer one than I could a crew cab truck in the same price range. Of course, I'm still buying and selling two different vehicles, which is annoying.

Just as info, we don't drive much. I work from my home and my wife is a homemaker (or whatever independent women like to be called who have chosen to stay at home and be mothers). We drive around town a lot and take a few 90-120 mile round trips per month to see the grandparents. The 45mpg of the jetta is really nice for all that, but truth be told, probably not necessary. It wouldn't be a huge hit to the wallet to have to drop to the 20mpg of a minivan.

I typically have bought my used cars privately. I tend to buy on miles and owner "vibe" (college ski bum kid=bad, older family man=good) more than anything like price or year. So while private party sales are often cheaper than dealers, I typically end up paying more than I might from a dealer. Plus, I just have a hard time trusting car dealers (okay, I hate dealing with most car dealers/salesmen). Especially the non-manufacturer dealers who tend to have the bulk of the 8-10 year old vehicles. But, both my jetta and my ranger have served me well with few problems. So I tend to think that I'm at least a little smart/lucky in this regard. Here's an example of a '99 van that I might go look at. The miles are low for the year and email with the guy shows that he knows what he's talking about and seems to have treated it well:

http://bellingham.craigslist.org/cto/1446587627.html

But then again, this dealer (http://www.linksata.com/) (small time dealer, mostly sells truck accessories/trailers/etc would have bought van at auction likely) has been trying to sell this '05 van for at least two months now (no idea if there is anything wrong with it):

http://bellingham.craigslist.org/ctd/1447981426.html

Did I mention I hate dealing with car dealers/salesmen?

Anyway, thanks for reading my long rant. Even if there is no useful answer that anyone here can give, it helped me to clear my head a bit to type it out.

[Ken Garlock]

The solution is simple:
1. Tie the dog to the rear bumper or,
2. Tie the dog to a tether in the backyard.

I vote for #2. But I am kind to animals. I am so kind that I cut a dogs tail off in little pieces instead of all at once.:eek:

[Josh Reet]

The solution is simple:
1. Tie the dog to the rear bumper or,
2. Tie the dog to a tether in the backyard.

I vote for #2. But I am kind to animals. I am so kind that I cut a dogs tail off in little pieces instead of all at once.:eek:

If anything was going to get tied to anything, it would be the cats to a bag of rocks.

But I knew what I was getting in the animal department when I married my wife. Plus, I do love my dog. Even if he does make car buying surprisingly difficult.

[Horton Brasses]

Why not just get a used Outback wagon or similar? Would do everything you want-and tow the utility trailer to boot. Cheaper and more fun to drive than a van. Then again, minivans are darn useful. They can tow your utility trailer too. Really, most vans and outbacks can tow a minimum of 1500 pounds and many tow 3000 pounds. Do you put that much in the trailer?

[Montgomery Scott]

I've owned a Dodge Grand Caravan and a Plymouth Voyager. They are, I hope, the last Chrysler vehicles I ever own. Once my current Caravan dies I plan to replace it with another minivan. They have great utility. I can put in sheets of plywood and up to 10' sticks of lumber, carry up to seven people and the gas mileage of the newer vans is pretty good. Most likely I will get a Honda Odyssey. They are rated far above US made minivans.

[Josh Reet]

Why not just get a used Outback wagon or similar? Would do everything you want-and tow the utility trailer to boot. Cheaper and more fun to drive than a van. Then again, minivans are darn useful. They can tow your utility trailer too. Really, most vans and outbacks can tow a minimum of 1500 pounds and many tow 3000 pounds. Do you put that much in the trailer?

I have owned a couple of subaru wagons and they are great vehicles. But they really aren't any bigger than a jetta wagon. And to be honest, I wouldn't tow anything with them of any weight. They aren't designed to be tow vehicles. But you are right about vans, most of them can tow around 3k.

[Josh Reet]

I've owned a Dodge Grand Caravan and a Plymouth Voyager. They are, I hope, the last Chrysler vehicles I ever own. Once my current Caravan dies I plan to replace it with another minivan. They have great utility. I can put in sheets of plywood and up to 10' sticks of lumber, carry up to seven people and the gas mileage of the newer vans is pretty good. Most likely I will get a Honda Odyssey. They are rated far above US made minivans.


They hondas are great, no doubt (toyotas too). But they are priced far above what I can pay for a minivan at this point, even used. Other than trucks, I'm not a huge fan of domestic vehicles. But that's what I'm stuck with at the moment as far as I can tell.

[RickT Harding]

Another vote to check out the subaru. The new models are a bit larger and when I just got mine I went ahead and got the cargo carrier for it right away. If you upgrade to the V6 you'll get decent towing and it'll go through anything that Ranger would and more.

I just love driving a car and 95% of the time I don't need a truck/etc. I kept thinking of something different to do this summer when I bought another Outback. In the end, there's just nothing out there as versatile and fun and my last one lasted me for a good while with no troubles.

I wouldn't tow a lot with my 4cyl outback, but I think the V6 is up there with a minivan.

The only other thing that came close was the Ford Taurus X (Freestyle), but it's 3 rows of seats and more SUV as far as price/gas mileage goes.

[Josh Reet]

Again, don't get me wrong, I love subarus.

But if we are having trouble fitting the kid, carseat, bob stroller, and dog in the Jetta wagon, we are not going to do much better in a subaru. Particularly when baby 2.0 comes along. A minivan pretty much HAS to be part of this equation.

Could it be a minivan and a subaru (and no truck), yes, that is a possibility. But to be honest, while it was great in the snow (I mean really great) I'm not that big of a fan of the subaru as a fishing/logging-road vehicle. The ground clearance just isn't in the same class as a truck or even most SUVs.

In addition, even with a V6, the transmission/brakes aren't set up for towing on a car. Yes, you CAN tow with a car, I just am not particularly interested in doing so because I don't think it's good for the car or really very safe for the driver. So I would probably end up using the van for anything that I wanted to tow. Which would probably work fine given my towing requirements.

[Chuck Wintle]

My vote for a minivan is the Toyota, Honda and then a Chrysler.

[Jeff Monson]

Agreed that a outback or forester is a great car but they are not comparable to a minivan for interior room and conveniences. I think you can get alot of caravan for the money, not a bad vehicle but not great either, you are getting what you pay for.

I personally would look for an odyssey van with higher miles, that will bring it down into your price range. For the layout and dependability of the honda line you cant go wrong.

[Jim O'Dell]

I've had 2 Dodge Caravans. 1994, and currently a 1999. If you go that route, be sure to get the 3.3 or 3.8 liter engine. Timing chain vs the timing belt in the 3.0 liter Mitsubishi engine my 1994 had. LOML drives the Caravan.
I have a Ford E-250 extended cargo van with windows. Easy to get full sheets of ply in it with the doors closed. :D Not so great on gas mileage though. Jim.

[Pat Germain]

I'm going to add another Subaru recommendation. Get a used Forrester and forget the Chrysler minivan. (Forresters have more room than a typical wagon.) Buying a brand new Chrysler minivan might be OK because it's new and under full factory warranty. Buying a used Chrysler with no warranty is like shooting yourself in the foot and then later wondering why your foot hurts so bad.

Also, although it may be technically possible to tow with a Chrysler minivan, I wouldn't recommend it. The brakes on those vehicles are notoriously under-engineered. Towing a trailer will make this bad situation worse. Those vans also tend to have transmission troubles. Again, towing will make it even more likely the tranny will go out.

Why do I have this attitude?

I bought my wife a brand new Chrysler sedan years ago. It had the exact same drivetrain as the Chrysler minivans. The tranny went out once under warranty. Then it went out again just after the warranty was up. Because it was a car notorious for tranny failures, it was worthless as a trade-in.

I then bought my wife a brand new Jeep Cherokee. I had to completely remove the entire front brake assembly (calipers, pads, rotors) and throw it all away when it was just over a year old. The the calipers were siezed, the rotors were corroded and the pads were shot. The vehicle was under warranty, but Chrysler refused to acknowledge there was even problem. (Grrrrrrr...). No more Chryslers for Watash. And I certainly won't recommend a used Chrysler for anyone I like.

There's a very good reason used Chrysler minivans are so reasonably priced.

[Josh Reet]

I appreciate the advice on the Chrysler issues. Good to know.

But again, for all the reasons I keep saying, the subaru is not going to work. I've owned multiple subarus and they are great cars. But they will not solve my space issue.

[Paul Ryan]

Josh,

I have been in the car buisness my whole life. Fixing cars, writting service, fixing them again, and now self employed inspector. I see lots and lots of vehicles every week. I have no idea why the honda's are rated so high. I amount of major repairs on honda odyseey are very high. The repairs are primarly transmission issues and air conditioning. The transmission issues with chysler mini vans that every one will like to tell you about ended with the 2001 model. You will have some od ball stuff from here to there. But the last major flaw in the 41TE transmission was finally designed out of it for the middle of 2000 year starting with all of the 2001 modles. I can go on and on about different things to look for in a mini van, but I say steer clear of the odyssey. There is a reason chrysler and dodge vans sell more than all of the others combined.

The reason that 2005 van is so low is because it is a non "stow and go". The "stow and go" allows you to fold all of the seats into the floor. It is a really really nice feature. I just sold my 02 van that had 98k on it and bought an 06 basically because of the "stow and go". I hated have a seat taking up space in my shop. I wouldn't be afraid of any chrysler van 2002 and newer with 100k miles on it. It is just getting broken in. I have seen plenty of chrysler vans over the years with 4, 5 and 6 hundred thousand miles on them. My neighbor had a 87 with 500k on it with the orginal trans that he sold for $1,000 3 years ago. But with anything you buy check it over good. I find that the "fly by night" guys try to hide things on vehicles much more often than the dealers. The dealers usually check there vehicles over much better and help out a customer more after the sale. Good luck.



"Also, although it may be technically possible to tow with a Chrysler minivan, I wouldn't recommend it. The brakes on those vehicles are notoriously under-engineered. Towing a trailer will make this bad situation worse. Those vans also tend to have transmission troubles. Again, towing will make it even more likely the tranny will go out"


I have to add. That Pat's statement about towing with a van is completely false. Nothing against Pat, but I have seen so many vans tow small boats, trailers, campers, their whole lives and be just fine. Just look at the amount of mini vans that pull small pop up campers to national parks every summer. They have been designed to pull things. The brakes and trans are just fine if treated properly. My 1st van had 70k on the orginal brake pads, when I changed them and cut the rotors. It all depends on the owner.

[Pat Germain]

I have to add. That Pat's statement about towing with a van is completely false. Nothing against Pat, but I have seen so many vans tow small boats, trailers, campers, their whole lives and be just fine. Just look at the amount of mini vans that pull small pop up campers to national parks every summer. They have been designed to pull things. The brakes and trans are just fine if treated properly. My 1st van had 70k on the orginal brake pads, when I changed them and cut the rotors. It all depends on the owner.

No problem, Paul. If, as you stated, Chrysler has indeed worked out their minivan tranny trouble, than I believe you that it would be OK to tow a small trailor.

Now that I think about it, my impression of Chrysler minivans may also be influenced by my brother in law. He has two of them. They are both dead and sitting in his yard. He uses them for storage. :)

Also, Consumer Reports has been rating Chrysler vehicles as dead last in reliability of late. However, I do not know if this applies specifically to the minivans.

To hedge your bets, Josh, you might look at a local Car Max lot for a nice Chrysler minivan. Their prices seem high and there's no negotiating, but they thoroughly check out their vehicles and they come with a warranty. (Of course, they can also sell you an extended warranty.) After looking for many months, my daughter just bought a 2008 Corolla at Car Max. She had a very positive experience there after dealing with a very slimey Toyota dealer.

[John Lohmann]

Front Wheel drive & towing don't mix. so 4WD is a must.

[Kevin Groenke]

Hey Josh.

I struggled with a similar decision a few years back when realized I had to get out of a truck and into a van-ish vehicle. I had only had my Ranger 4x4 excab for a couple years before I got rid of it.

I seriously considered, researched and drove many mini-vans, wagons and small SUV's (GrCaravan, CRV, Forester, Outback, Jetta, RAV4, Highlander, Odyssey, FT Cruiser, Sienna, Patriot, MPV, Mazda5, Excape) All of the SUV's above seemed too small and luxurious (I transport bikes, tools, plants and other stuff daily). The Odyssey and Sienna seemed inordinately expensive for what they were.

I had decided to put aside self-image and reliability concerns and get a GrCaravan but I ended up with a Honda Element instead. The Element is quirky but it works very well for me. I've designed and built a rack to transport sheet stock on the side of the truck (ala glass truck) which was one of the primary reasons the Stow & Go van was the other primary contender. The Element's RT_AWD and adequate ground clearance makes it capable on fire roads, in deep snow and on other mild "off-road" excursions. The carpet-less interior of the E makes it great for throwing in dirt and plants, muddy bikes, wet pets, messy children or whatever other activities you're into. The interior is cavernous compared to the other small SUV's listed above. With the back seats up, the floor is dead flat from behind the front seats (72") The tailgate is much closer to the ground a pick-up which makes loading much easier. I sewed up a blue tarp that fills the back when I have a full load of mulch, leaves or other sloppy bits.

2" receiver hitches are available and the stated towing capacity is 1500lbs, so a small trailer is no problem to tow, though I think any minivan should be able to tow just as well. I've got a yakima rack on mine which carries whatever I can't fit in the back. I also have a receiver mounted cargo tray for when I've got more than I can carry inside.

I often wish the E had room for 5 but there are only seat belts for 2 in the back seat.

Check out elementownersclub for answers to questions and other info.

It may be at least worth a look if you haven't checked it out.

-kg

Have you thought about a Ford Transit?



http://z.about.com/d/trucks/1/0/-/M/05_element_cargo2.jpg http://blog.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/transit-connect-main.jpg

[Myk Rian]

Front Wheel drive & towing don't mix. so 4WD is a must.
Uh, says who? I do it all the time.

[Paul Ryan]

Front Wheel drive & towing don't mix. so 4WD is a must.


This is another one of those old wives tales. It simply isn't true. There is no reason a front wheel drive equiped vehicle cannot tow something. It isn't going to hurt anything, as long as you stay with in the limits of the vehicle. A front wheel drive will have a lower rating do to many different componets, but they will tow, and stop just fine. And actually a 4wd vehicle is less suited for towing than a 2wd unit. If you look at truck tow ratings a 2wd always has a higher rating.

One of the reasons most transmissions are much better today than they used to be is do to the fact that maufactures realize most people are idiots. When the overdrive trannies 1st came out so many people towed with them in overdrive. Not reading their owners manuels for one thing. Boy that is like some super secret document, why would I want to read that. All over drive is, is what it says... Over, Drive. Drive is 1:1 over drive is usually in the range of 1:.80. Now you have an even taller gear, when you get a load behind that, the power isn't there in that gear. So the tranny begins shifting in and out, this causes the clutches to wear out, and way too much heat to develope. You can tow in overdrive if you are smart. If the vehicle struggles to maintain speed in overdrive you have to shift out to drive/3 or what ever the manufacture calls the lower gear. Now days you have towing modes which only allow the trans to go into overdrive if the vehicle can handle it.

[Pat Germain]

I had decided to put aside self-image and reliability concerns and get a GrCaravan but I ended up with a Honda Element instead.

Hey, that little Element actually looks pretty slick. I bet it's also very economical; certainly much more than an SUV. How very European. :)

[Horton Brasses]

I love Elements-but the fuel economy kinda stinks. About 22 highway I think-if you drive 65-which I don't.

Not to beat a dead horse-but a new Outback has more ground clearance than a Toyota 4Runner-9.8 inches compared to 9.6. I think the last generation Outback had about 9 inches of ground clearance. I realize they don't work for you, just thought this was interesting.

[Kevin Barnett]

I like option #4. I have an Avalanche. You should look into one. The 100lb dog will have to go in the back if you have two kids in the back seat.

You can tow, haul, and carry most things. You can fold the seats and get longer items FULLY protected and locked.

I get about 16mpg, which isn't too great, but I look at it as insurance money - when another car hits me with kids in the vehicle. Usually the heaviest car wins.

[John Lohmann]

Front Wheel drive & towing don't mix. so 4WD is a must.
I was told by some friends that FWD was not so hot for towing, I've never tried it. It made since to me considering the weight is not over the drive wheels. I guess it depends on what you intend to tow.

[Mike Circo]

My personal experiences with Chrysler Mini vans.

My '96 was perfect. 115,000 miles with hardly any issues. Had the Mitsubishi 3.0 l engine. I would not have towed anything with that setup as the power was low and breaks weak.

I should have kept that van. But got antsy and bought a 2004 T&C.
I have had continous problems with that van. Everything has been repairable, but the repair costs are excessive.

- Ignition harness shorted on vacation in NC. Only Chrysler dealer for 100 miles wouldn't take me in. Had to pay shop $250 for repairs.
- Front brake pads gone at 19k miles. Way too early. Dealer replaced.
- Check engine light on. Sensor problem covered in warrenty, but I lost a day messing with it.
- Coolant pump out. In warrenty, but I had to pay a $200 deductable.
- Brakes again at 50k
- Power steering pump out at 70k
- Front tie rods (I think) out at 75k
- Transmission seals bad at 75k
- Alignment shot at 80k, ate a set of front tires. (in 30 years of driving I never had that happen on any other car I owned)
- Ignition lock (key system in console) broke! Crazy stupid thing, the key would just spin in the lock. Out of warrenty - $500

I figure I have over $5000 in repairs to that vehicle. Money that could have bought me a better van from somebody else. Plus factor in the aggravation factor and you will never see another Chrysler vehicle in my driveway again.

True stories of one man not exaggerated in any way.
I like Chrysler design, but hate their relability.

[Josh Reet]

Since there aren't any vans (of any make) that fit my bill around me right now (I'm going to pass on the 99 and the 05 is from a roadside dealer I know nothing about), I think I'm going to take a look into SUV's. I really don't think they will sway me from a van (mmmmmm....sliding doors), but as a few of you have said, it's worth looking into.

[Paul Ryan]

Josh,

The small SUV's arn't bad either. They will usually get about the same mileage as the vans on the highwy, and a little less in town. Just stay away from Ford exploders, GM blazing trails, and GMC envoys, they are all money pits. As much as I hate to endorse a foreign brand, I would not buy a domestic small SUV.

[Art Mulder]

Hi Josh,

I owned a 2004 Toyota Sienna for five years (bought new). When it was written off in an accident we went out and bought another Sienna, didn't even think of looking at other vans. We love it. But then again, we have four kids, so a minivan is really the only choice, and the Toyota is just about the only option for an 8-passenger option.

I like to ask big picture questions, so here goes...

1- nowhere in your original post do you mention towing. Yet towing is mentioned over and over again in responses. So then... do you have any real need for towing or not? If not, then we can discount that whole issue.

2- I'm not a dog owner, so I'd also go with the "lose the dog" comments, but you've clearly discounted it. But along with towing questions... just how often does your dog really NEED to ride with you and the whole family? Just be sure that it is a real need before you let it force you to spend thousands of your hard earned dollars.

3- Ummmm... you work at home, and your wife is a homemaker. And yet you have THREE vehicles!?!? You seem to me to be a prime candidate for a one-car family. Again, you'll have to run your own numbers and take a hard look at your own situation. Before you spend the bucks, be sure you really need to!

I tell people all the time: going from a 2-car to a 1-car family is like giving yourself a $10,000 a year raise. I'm not exaggerating! Between gas, insurance, maintenance, and capital costs, it costs you something like $5-7k (or more) a year to own a car, and in order to have $5-7k you need to earn more like $10k.

4- Now about the whole pickup truck/high-clearance question. Along with #3 above, look at this... just how much does it cost you to rent a pickup truck or some other vehicle for those few times a year that you want to go onto back roads for hunting/fishing. Now balance that against the annual costs of actually owning that vehicle. Just more food for thought.

[Joe Mioux]

OK, here it goes.

I have owned a 93 Dodge Caravan,
own a 93 Plymouth Voyager (bought new in Oct 1992),
own a 99 Plymouth Voyager (tranny died at 224,000 miles),
own a 2005 Chrysler Town & Country (my vehicle),
own a 2004 Dodge Durango with a hemi (loml's car),
own a 1997 Ford Club Wagon, and

just bought a 2010 Ford Transit Connect.

my thoughts. Chrysler products? tranny's two went bad, one was under the 7/70k warranty, one had 224,000 miles before it died. Other than that, great vehicles. I would have no problem buying another one. Other than the tranny, very little other problems. regular maintenance issues, brakes, shocks etc.

The Ford TC, is a great little vehicle. It will not hold 4x8's. From the back of the frong seat to the back door - six feet.

they are tall, inside is 4'10"- I think.

Fuel economy is great! combined 26 mpg.

four cylinder but good acceleration.

turning radius very good.

for the money though, a Chrysler mini van buys you more convenience, amenities, comfort and room. I have hauled 4x8 with just the seat backs folded down.

joe

[Josh Reet]

1- nowhere in your original post do you mention towing. Yet towing is mentioned over and over again in responses. So then... do you have any real need for towing or not? If not, then we can discount that whole issue.

Well, I did mention it in the original post in passing to point out that I own a trailer that could take care of some number of the tasks that I use my truck for:


Truth be told, I dont HAVE to have a truck. I need something with some ground clearance for when I go fishing up logging roads and 4x4 for when I go snowboarding. But the truck bed is mostly just used for muddy dogs, lumber/whatnot/etc and non messy trips to the dump. I do have an 8x10 utility trailer that could replace most of those uses. And with SUV's being as un-loved as they are, I could probably get a newer nicer one than I could a crew cab truck in the same price range. Of course, I'm still buying and selling two different vehicles, which is annoying. But the conversation got much more heavy into towing than is probably relevant. Though I do use the trailer a couple times a month and would rather not lose the ability if it could be avoided. I'd rather lose the "pickup" aspect of my truck and keep the towing ability if I had to choose. Which is what I was alluding to in my quote above.


2- I'm not a dog owner, so I'd also go with the "lose the dog" comments, but you've clearly discounted it. But along with towing questions... just how often does your dog really NEED to ride with you and the whole family? Just be sure that it is a real need before you let it force you to spend thousands of your hard earned dollars.

I've gotta tell you, I don't know too many dog owners who would say to themselves "this dog is really making my car buying decisions a pain, I'm going to go have the pound put him down so I can buy a nice sedan".

I promise you, the dog goes everywhere. It's not something that a non dog owner would have experienced, but that's the way it is when you've got a dog that is a "family" dog. In addition, being a good dog owner is a responsibility that involves vet trips, dog parks, hiking trips and so on. This isn't really a negotiable part of my life. There has to be a vehicle in my life that can fit all humans (and their crap) and the 100lb dog.


Ummmm... you work at home, and your wife is a homemaker. And yet you have THREE vehicles!?!? You seem to me to be a prime candidate for a one-car family. Again, you'll have to run your own numbers and take a hard look at your own situation. Before you spend the bucks, be sure you really need to!

There is no way in hell that I am going to have two children (under two years old), family that isn't in the same town, and one car. The one car is gone and some sort of emergency comes up with the kids? Your one car breaks down and then you are all stuck at home? One kid has a doc apt one place but the other kid has to go to playgroup. Yeah, I don't get to go fishing enough, but how in the world am I going to get to go at all if that means the one truck is stuck up some logging road while my wife is at home with no way to leave the house? We already do that every year during snowstorms (wife won't drive in the snow) and it's a pain in the ass. Rental car? That's not really a feasible solution where I live. Nor do I think most people here would say it was feasible for them. 4-5 separate days renting a truck/suv in my town would more than pay for my existing truck's insurance for the year.

I get the idea, after all on the surface it seems like we don't drive that much, but that just isn't going to work for me. Maybe that makes me some sort of capitalist over-consumer of our precious mother earth, but so be it. I'm not owning one car if I can avoid it. Perhaps if we were childless and living in the city where everything was walking distance. But the life I lead now would not be improved by having one car, quite the contrary in fact.

That being said, we obviously don't need three vehicles for two drivers. The only reason we currently have three vehicles is that I haven't sold the "recreation" car (camper van) that I owned before I ended up with kids. Yeah, it needs to be sold. But I'm sure everyone here has some chore that they have put off for far too long. The only reason I am considering owning 3 vehicles in the future is that it in some situations, given what we own and our needs, it turns out to be cheaper than ending up with 2 vehicles (and involve less annoying buying and selling) to end up with the things we have that fit our needs.



4- Now about the whole pickup truck/high-clearance question. Along with #3 above, look at this... just how much does it cost you to rent a pickup truck or some other vehicle for those few times a year that you want to go onto back roads for hunting/fishing. Now balance that against the annual costs of actually owning that vehicle. Just more food for thought.

Given that none of the other options really affect this one, it's not a big deal for me to factor it in. It's not like a subaru/jetta wagon would suddenly fit the two kids, the bob stroller, all the crap, and the 100lb dog if I decided that I didn't need ground clearance. It snows enough, I go snowboarding enough, and fishing enough that I intend to own a 4x4 or AWD vehicle with decent ground clearance if at all possible. Given that I already own one, and one that will tow what I need it to tow, there's not a lot of reason for me to give up on it other than the fact that my truck won't fit more than two people. Which to be fair, is part of the problem. If I had a crew cab truck already I would just sell the jetta and buy a minivan, problem solved.

The ideal solution would be for me to own a crew cab truck and a nice minivan. Minivan drives around town and shuttles kids, but the whole family can fit in the truck if needed. But the fact of the matter is that given the value of the cars I own now, the cost of selling/buying cars, and the general ease/annoyance of doing that, there really isn't any cut and dried answer.

[phil harold]

Used Chrysler Mini vans are in abundance
that means replacement parts are cheaper and available...

just food for thought

[Paul Ryan]

Well here goes,

My family consists of myself, my wife, my son, and my daughter who should be born sometime between today and next tuesday, and my 75lb lab. We own 3 vehicles. A 06 dodge caravan, an 07 chrysler sebring, and a 96 dodge pick up. Each serves a purpose. The car is the work vehicle between my wife driving it to work and myself driving it for work we put on 1000 miles a week. The van gets driven about 12k miles a year, and the truck gets about 4000 a year. We owe zero $$ on any of them. But with out any of them we would have trouble. I don't have any family or friends close buy that own a pick up. Renting one is not even available in the near area. But for picking up lumber, hunting, and other activities what would I do with out the pick up. The van gets used as a family vehicle when we go to that lake, on a vacation, etc. What other vehicle could we put all of our stuff + a dog into. Everyone with young children nows how much crap you need to pack with kids. And then there leaves the car. It gets between 35-37 MPG. If I drove the van for my job at 21-23 MPG I would loose a great deal of money. I could live with out the pick up but it would cause a buch of problems if I did. And since it only runs me about $25 a month in insurace and 2 oil changes. It costs me about $350 a year to own it.

[Art Mulder]

....That's not really a feasible solution where I live. Nor do I think most people here would say it was feasible for them. 4-5 separate days renting a truck/suv in my town would more than pay for my existing truck's insurance for the year.

Josh, bear in mind that all we know of you is those few paragraphs you've written in this thread. You don't say where "here" is, so we're just guessing. Do you live in a town, or way in the middle of nowhere?

I live in a town of 300,000. I have 4 kids, and we live with just the one vehicle. It is doable here. I bike to work. We organize our appointment so they don't conflict. We carpool at times. And yes, sometimes it is a pain in the neck. :( If we lived in a remote area, it might be that much harder.

hope you work something out.

[Josh Reet]

FWIW, here's what happened:

I found a decent deal on a 2005 Chrystler Town and Country at the local dodge dealer. More importantly, the miles were reasonable (58k) and it had the two features I was looking for (quad capt chairs and stow and go seats). Plus, it had the bonus of already having a tow hitch installed. I didn't get much haggling done, as they knew it was priced fairly. But all in all, I got a good deal considering it came from a factory dealer with at least some amount of reputation to uphold.

Even after having the minivan for just a few weeks, I can already see we're going to get rid of the Jetta. It just is way easier to load up the kid and dog and groceries etc in the van compared to the car. I don't think my wife has driven the jetta once in the past week. After that, we'll have to see what happens with the truck. I'm warming to the idea of selling it and just getting a mid-sized SUV like a pathfinder or xterra since I've got the utility trailer and the van can fit full sheets of plywood in the back with the seats down.

[Paul Ryan]

Josh,

I think you made a good choice. You should be happy with that van for many years to come. In the long run you will be happy you spent the extra money for one with stow n go. You can do anything with that van than you can with any smaller SUV excpet for the extra 1" ground clearance. And that really doesn't make that much of a difference. I always tell people if you can't travel with front wheel drive than it isn't safe traveling. You can haul sheets of plywood in the van and get 10' pieces of lumber. You will really like it.

[Josh Reet]

You can haul sheets of plywood in the van and get 10' pieces of lumber. You will really like it.

The salesman told me that about the sheets and I honestly didn't believe him. I thought the 8ft was too big. But after I got it home and measured, sure enough, you can do it. And like you say, 12ft lumber shouldn't be a problem as it would fit between the front seats.

Thanks for the advice and opinions everyone.