Combination Square ??

[mike graveling]

I am looking for a new combination square and am wondering what you guys are using,It seems like the ones you get at the box stores are usaully cheap and not square, but when you go to say a starrett you pay 10 times the price, so I was wondering if there is a middle ground square that is out there??

[lowell holmes]

I got my Starrett for Christmas. Take a catalog and encircle the items you want and then leave it for family members to find.:)

The Starrett is worth every penny.

You know the old saying "Buy a good tool and cry when you pay for it, buy a cheap tool and cry every time you use it."

[Chuck Saunders]

Starrett +1

[Dave Verstraete]

Starrett +2

[Rod Sheridan]

I have a Starret that I purchased in 1978, and a 10 year old Mitutoyo, both are excellent.

I also have a 4"? Lee Valley combination square that's very handy.

Regards, Rod.

[Jon Grider]

Starrett, you can't go wrong. You pay more, but it's worth every penny.

[Ed Labadie]

My Mitutoyo is over 20 years old......works fine.
Back then it was all I could afford, no regrets.

Ed

[Kevin Groenke]

I have a Starrett, Browne & Sharpe and a couple classics (Craftsman, Millers Falls, Stanley) I got several sets from Grizzly for the student shop last year. They don't have the fit and finish or the bling factor of the machinist's brand-names, but all 3 are square as discernable with a 4"x6" toolmakers square. They have a cast iron head and a nice heavy satin blade. Good value for the $, if you're too cheap to spring for a REAL square. The rule IS NOT metric is shown on the image.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/3-pc-Combination-Bevel-Square/G5725
http://cdn0.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg500/g/g5725.jpg

As Rod mentioned, a 4" double square is also a very valuable tool, small enough to fit in an apron pocket, sometimes handier than a 12" for laying out tenons, mortises, etc... I use a 4" more than a 12". Rockler, Lee Valley, Woodcraft, etc.. all have decent alternatives to Starrett's 4" double square. I just ordered a couple for the student shop from here: $12.95 ea was a heck of a deal.

http://www.mannyswoodworkersplace.com/303-0004.html
They look identical to the one I got on-sale for $20 from Rockler last year.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-96267234974469_2076_19378018

[Randal Stevenson]

I would watch estate/garage sales. Craftsman USED (doubt they still do) to have a high end one that was made by someone like Mitutoyo or Brown and Sharp. I have one and it is good. I have also pieced together one from Ebay, for a reasonable amount.

Then I have known people who start out and buy Swanson or whatever brand at the borgs. They just go through them first to find one that works. I did something similar, so I could leave that one for construction, and the expensive ones in the shop (less chance of falling off a ladder).

[Kent A Bathurst]

Starrett, you can't go wrong. You pay more, but it's worth every penny.

Without question. Got a few. Use them routinely. That little 4" is a gem.

[Brian Tax]

Starrett +1, try ebay for a cheaper price.

[Pat Zabrocki]

Starrett +1

[Chris Tsutsui]

I have a 12" empire combo square and I never cry when I use it... haha

I have Mitutoyo, vintage Craftsman, empire, and starrett. (Just sold a starrett No. 14 to a forum member)

To me, the biggest difference will be the "USER" error. If your BORG square is really that far off, then you probably just got a bad one.

I would hate to spend $100 on a combo square, then have it lost, stolen or broken... :(

[jerry nazard]

Stanley 46-123 combo square. Over the years, this one has gotten good reviews. Costs $14 - $15.00. Better yet, get a Starrett.

[Jon Grider]

Not to hijack this thread but it reminded me of the time back in the early 80's that I went to Sears to buy a framing square. I brought along my pencil and a piece of cardboard about 2'X3'. I laid the cardboard against the flatest and straightest objects I could find in the tool department which was a ground tablesaw table and fence. Using the method of aligning the short leg with the top edge of cardboard and drawing a 90 degree line tracing along the long leg , and the flipping the short leg over, and doing the same thing from the other side revealed that many of the top of the line Craftsman framing squares were close to 1/8" out of square. I must have checked 6 or 8 squares before I found one close enough to spend money on. The manager nervously allowed me to check them until I found the one I still have today. If he hadn't let me check them I definately wouldn't own a Craftsman framing square today.

[Charles Krieger]

I have a 6" Starrett that is over 50 years old, a Craftsman 12" that is over 40 years old and an Empire 18" that is 2 years old. All check out with a machinist square and each other. There is little doubt the the quality order is the same as I stated them in but even the Empire gets the job done as it is used infrequently. The 6" Starrett is my go to square for 90% of the work I do.

[Mac McQuinn]

I have a small Starrett given to me as a gift and I love it although if your looking for a bargain, my advise is to look through antique and second hand shops for a Lufkin made in Saginaw, Michigan. Lufkin is my favorite measuring device. Quality is there & I'd stack them(the Saginaw built models) up against Starrett anytime.

Mac

[Mac McQuinn]

Not to hijack this thread but it reminded me of the time back in the early 80's that I went to Sears to buy a framing square. I brought along my pencil and a piece of cardboard about 2'X3'. I laid the cardboard against the flatest and straightest objects I could find in the tool department which was a ground tablesaw table and fence. Using the method of aligning the short leg with the top edge of cardboard and drawing a 90 degree line tracing along the long leg , and the flipping the short leg over, and doing the same thing from the other side revealed that many of the top of the line Craftsman framing squares were close to 1/8" out of square. I must have checked 6 or 8 squares before I found one close enough to spend money on. The manager nervously allowed me to check them until I found the one I still have today. If he hadn't let me check them I definately wouldn't own a Craftsman framing square today.

I believe you can adjust these with a hammer, punch & some well placed hits.....

Mac

[johnny means]

I own a few Empires from Lowes. They all check out square and I don't panic when they go missing on a job site, fall off my bench, or get something heavy thrown on top of them.

I have been in the business for ten years or so and of dozens of combination squares I have seen on the job, I have only seen one Starrett. Of course, it was owned by a very recent graduate of some woodworking/design school whom had never actually worked in the field. She also had just about every plane that Lie-Nielson makes and many other cool toys.

My point is that, in my experience, there is no real need to spend more the a few dollars on a combination square. This I believe is evident in the tool bags of every professional wood worker I have ever worked with. These are guys that reach for these things dozens of times a day. Mind you these are not unknowing butchers who wouldn't know square from a hole in their head. These are real craftsmen who have, through years of experience, come to the conclusion that expensive squares do not have much value beyond their Bling factor.

Not that the one Starrett I have seen wasn't better than my cheapo. It certainly was clearly superior to my POS in fit and finish. But it didn't perform any better (yes, I checked).

[Shannon Seelig]

I bought a starrett and it is dead on! I use it to check the other squares before I buy them. :D

[Jim Crockett]

I believe you can adjust these with a hammer, punch & some well placed hits.....

Mac

Mac, you can adjust a framing square with a hammer and prick punch but not a combination square. To adjust a combination square you have to very carefully file the head with an auger file. Have never done it but Carol Reed has a section on it in her "Router Joinery Workshop" book - your library might have a copy.

Basically, check the combination square with a drafting triangle. Remove the blade from the combination square and hold the head with the blade slot up. File the bottom of the slot on the high side with the auger file.

Jim

[Mac McQuinn]

Mac, you can adjust a framing square with a hammer and prick punch but not a combination square. To adjust a combination square you have to very carefully file the head with an auger file. Have never done it but Carol Reed has a section on it in her "Router Joinery Workshop" book - your library might have a copy.

Basically, check the combination square with a drafting triangle. Remove the blade from the combination square and hold the head with the blade slot up. File the bottom of the slot on the high side with the auger file.

Jim

Jim,
Sorry I thought the discussion had shifted to Framing Squares, I was referring to framing square adjustment.

Mac

[Jon McElwain]

I had one of those craftsman squares that was close to 1/8" out. My dad showed me how to lay the square flat and take a nail set on the inside corner of the square (perpendicular to the flat) and hit it with a hammer until it was square. About 20 minutes later, it passed the pencil test - good enough for framing!

[Steve Sawyer]

I agree in general with the comment from Mr. Means (how much accuracy do we really need?) but considering that we often use the combo square to check machine setup and accuracy, it's nice to know that what you're using is indeed highly accurate.

That said, flea markets and other used tool sources are good sources for Starret, Mitutoyo and vintage Lufkin, General, Craftsman and Stanley combination squares that can be had for half the price (or less) of a new Starrett. Be sure to check them before purchasing though, as they may have been dropped or otherwise abused. If you live in our part of the country, look into the Midwest Tool Collector's Association (M-WTCA) who hold regional meets a couple of times a year and you'll have more combination squares to select from than you had any idea existed.

[William Schmitz]

On any given day you will find 2000+ used machinist tools on eBay - Starret and the like. The Starrets command a bit more of a premium, my combo square is a Brown & Sharpe. It is accurate, smooth, easy to read, and slides on and off easily.

Among other tools, I also picked up one of those "planer/shaper" guages. I use it to set the jointer fence square to the tables. A six inch sliding caliper is also nice. Then there are tools like the dial caliper to help you set up your woodworking tools. It is not so much that I am trying to work to the thousandth of an inch, but that these tools make it very easy to work accurately without straining the eyes.

I think it is partly the de-industrialization of America, and partly the conversion to digital which makes these premium used tools readily available and relatively inexpensive.

[Chuck Saunders]

measure with a micrometer
mark with chalk
cut with an axe

[Peter Gregory]

I think the Popular Woodworking blog had a blurb about Bridge City's version (http://www.bridgecitytools.com/Products/Combination+Squares/DSS-6+Double+Saddle+Sq.). Wow! That looks nice.

Funny how you can spend $6 or $250 on different versions of the same tool. I know it is true for many things, but that is a big gap.

[Paul Ryan]

I have a couple of empires all are sqare enough for woodworking. They are cheap enough if you loose one or damage one you go buy another. That is why I have 4 of them. For the type of work we do I dont see spending big dollars on a starret. Its not like be are building rockets or going to the moon.

[Curt Harms]

I have a couple of empires all are sqare enough for woodworking. They are cheap enough if you loose one or damage one you go buy another. That is why I have 4 of them. For the type of work we do I dont see spending big dollars on a starret. Its not like be are building rockets or going to the moon.

Paul echoes my thought. I'm certain the Starretts, Brown & Sharpe etc. are superb tools. Except for machine setup, how good do you need? Right now, Empire, Stanley and the like are more accurate than I am. I've bought some drafting triangle that seem very accurate for machine setup.

[Kevin Groenke]

While it is true that a Starrett (or other quality machinist's square) is not 10X better than a BORG square or 4X better than a knock off, there are significant quantitative and qualitative differences. It's like a BMW M5 vs a Chevy Malibu. One of the products is manufactured to higher standards with superior materials. The two devices look pretty similar and serve pretty much the same function but one performs incrementally better than the other and rewards the discerning user with some degree of return on their investment. Some may argue that's vanity and for some it may be, but the products ARE different.

I find many quality tools to be worth the investment (and I'm always on the lookout for high-value impostors). I use a combo square pretty much every day, when a high quality version is not at hand, I am often frustrated by the relative clumsiness and lack of precision in an inferior example. I have on old Craftsman w/cast head and heavy rule in my traveling tool bag, it's square, slides easily, locks positively and I'm not out $90 if it goes missing.

If I'd never used I quality square, I may think $90 is a ridiculous price to pay when I can get a square for $8. Then again if people like me didn't appreciate quality, precision and innovation, Starrett, Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen, Bridge City and the like wouldn't be in business.

My advise is buy the best you can afford. If you buy well, you'll only buy once and you rarely hear people complaining that a tool is too goo or works too well.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

measure with a micrometer
mark with chalk
cut with an axe

LOL!

You need to step into the 21st century. Ditch the axe. Use a CHAINSAW!
BTW, you forgot "Calculate the cut to 7 decimal places."

[James White]

[QUOTE=Kevin Groenke;1250150]I have a Starrett, Browne & Sharpe and a couple classics (Craftsman, Millers Falls, Stanley) I got several sets from Grizzly for the student shop last year. They don't have the fit and finish or the bling factor of the machinist's brand-names, but all 3 are square as discernable with a 4"x6" toolmakers square. They have a cast iron head and a nice heavy satin blade. Good value for the $, if you're too cheap to spring for a REAL square. The rule IS NOT metric is shown on the image. Always call ahead with the item #.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/3-pc-Combination-Bevel-Square/G5725
http://cdn0.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg500/g/g5725.jpg

Here is the HF version of the Grizzly grade square. If you can find it in stock they are around $30. SO minus the 20% off coupon it is a good deal for middle of the road that you are looking for. Mine is dead on with a machinist square and the plastic drafting square that are known to be reliable. Always call ahead with the item #.

Just called my local store they have 6 and they are on sale for $27.99

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=4185&CategoryName=&SubCategoryName=

James

[Doug Shepard]

Any thoughts on the difference in head types with the Starrett offerings? They offer alll their models with either a cast or forged head. I'm thinking of picking up either a metric blade for my Starrett (not sure which type I have - I'll have to check the finish) or just getting a 2nd combo square with metric blade.

[Jerome Hanby]

I've got the same one, and miracle of miracles it is square :D

Still looking for a steal on a Starrett, though.


[QUOTE=Kevin Groenke;1250150]I have a Starrett, Browne & Sharpe and a couple classics (Craftsman, Millers Falls, Stanley) I got several sets from Grizzly for the student shop last year. They don't have the fit and finish or the bling factor of the machinist's brand-names, but all 3 are square as discernable with a 4"x6" toolmakers square. They have a cast iron head and a nice heavy satin blade. Good value for the $, if you're too cheap to spring for a REAL square. The rule IS NOT metric is shown on the image. Always call ahead with the item #.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/3-pc-Combination-Bevel-Square/G5725
http://cdn0.grizzly.com/pics/jpeg500/g/g5725.jpg

Here is the HF version of the Grizzly grade square. If you can find it in stock they are around $30. SO minus the 20% off coupon it is a good deal for middle of the road that you are looking for. Mine is dead on with a machinist square and the plastic drafting square that are known to be reliable. Always call ahead with the item #.

Just called my local store they have 6 and they are on sale for $27.99

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=4185&CategoryName=&SubCategoryName=

James

[Kent A Bathurst]

Any thoughts on the difference in head types with the Starrett offerings? They offer alll their models with either a cast or forged head. I'm thinking of picking up either a metric blade for my Starrett (not sure which type I have - I'll have to check the finish) or just getting a 2nd combo square with metric blade.

Starrett site says forged is longer-lasting. I have the cast - assume this will last only for the next 4 generations, instead of 12 with the forged.:)

[Doug Shepard]

...- assume this will last only for the next 4 generations, instead of 12 with the forged.:)

Good point. Looks like the difference is about $15-20. So do I want to spend an extra $3 per generation?.......
I was going to leave all my tools to the dog when I go anyway:D

[Kent A Bathurst]

...I was going to leave all my tools to the dog when I go anyway:D

Perfect answer - I've got no kids, no relatives that would have any interest. Maybe I'll (a) have the executor stand on the driveway and auction off the key to the shop - winner take all, or (b) get me a dog to leave it to, or (c) maybe your dog could use my stuff as well?

[Derby Matthews]

If you're doing carpentry, a cheap square is fine, even a stanley speed square will often do the trick. The game changes when working with expensive hardwoods building furniture, etc. The first drop to the floor, or the 100th blade adjustment effective ruins a cheap square for this purpose. A .5 degree defect in your square will translate to caulk being used as a structural element in your completed work. BTW Don't think Nasa or Bert Rutan use combo squares much on multi stage rockets :~}

Wish BCTW would make a builders square the way they did the CT-12. now THAT would be an awesome tool! Given the age and twist to my house, I cant use a Combo square much either! Nothing's 90 degrees!

[Sean Kinn]

[QUOTE=Derby Matthews;1294514]... or the 100th blade adjustment effective ruins a cheap square for this purpose.[QUOTE]


This is the problem I keep having with my Empire from HD. It is actually dead square, but after about 6 months of regular use I just can't tighten the knob tight enough by hand anymore to reliably lock it down. It seems tight until I try to mark a line against the end, and the head moves on me. I've actually thought of splurging on the Starrett for this reason alone. Can anyone comment on whether this failure to lock happens on the Starrets as well? I'm guessing it doesn't.

[tyler mckee]

I use my 6" empire the most. Fits in my back pocket so its always easy to find, usually my 12" is burried under junk somewhere and takes 5 minutes to find.

[Roger Pozzi]

I have a 16" Lufkin that was my Dad's. It also has the center finder attachment, and a protactor head.
I'll keep this one and use it as long as my Dad had. :)

[Chip Lindley]

General still makes a very good 12" satin chrome combo machinist's square. I got one 1/2 price when Central Hardware went out of business in the '90s. Still sold by Sears; at one time labeled as Craftsman iin their Commercial line. Very good stuff to find at flea markets, rummage sales, CL, or eBay.

[Dave Cav]

Here is the HF version of the Grizzly grade square. If you can find it in stock they are around $30. SO minus the 20% off coupon it is a good deal for middle of the road that you are looking for. Mine is dead on with a machinist square and the plastic drafting square that are known to be reliable. Always call ahead with the item #.

Just called my local store they have 6 and they are on sale for $27.99

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/...bCategoryName= (http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=4185&CategoryName=&SubCategoryName=)

James


I just came from Harbor Freight (Everett, WA) and they had this square on sale for $7.95. I got two.

Dave

[Derby Matthews]

Good work! Harbor Freight is known more for Spending (wasting) time hunting for things I decide not to buy than finding a great deal on a good carpentry tool like this square. Did you buy one for each tool belt? The wife? Backup heat? :D

The most unfortunate thing about all these squares is they're not quite long enough to put in the gun rack in the truck - next to the level.



Here is the HF version of the Grizzly grade square. If you can find it in stock they are around $30. SO minus the 20% off coupon it is a good deal for middle of the road that you are looking for. Mine is dead on with a machinist square and the plastic drafting square that are known to be reliable. Always call ahead with the item #.

Just called my local store they have 6 and they are on sale for $27.99

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/...bCategoryName= (http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=4185&CategoryName=&SubCategoryName=)

James


I just came from Harbor Freight (Everett, WA) and they had this square on sale for $7.95. I got two.

Dave

[Tom Henderson2]

I am looking for a new combination square and am wondering what you guys are using,It seems like the ones you get at the box stores are usaully cheap and not square, but when you go to say a starrett you pay 10 times the price, so I was wondering if there is a middle ground square that is out there??

Starrett is a good investment; not only are they accurate, but the rules slide easily and smoothly making them very easy to use.

For an economical alternative, consider the PEC brand; an google search will get you retailers. Nicely made in the USA.

-TH

[Van Huskey]

Even with the realtively low tolerances of woodworking I always try to get the best tool I can afford because the earlier a tool is used the more the inaccuracy get multiplied. If you can/will afford it I say get a Sarrett or its equal and I bet you will never regret it.

[Howard Klepper]

Mitutoyo, Starrett, Brown & Sharpe.

[Vijay Kumar]

Mitutoyo, Starrett, Brown & Sharpe.
I agree with this. The satin chrome on the Starett scales is very easy on your eyes. It is for this reason alone Starett rules (pun intended). Seriously all the above brand names are good and square. But the satin chrome on the Starett scales makes me :):):)

Vijay

[Derby Matthews]

Starretts I've owned didn't suffer from LD (Lockdown deficiency), only parallax (or is it perpendicullax?) errors from a worn head.

Wow, did I just invent a new word? This is the post Bush era, after all...