High Tool Prices

[mickey cassiba]

I'm starting this thread with full knowledge that it may get me banned, but it has to be said.
When advising a fellow as to how to remedy a problem with a tool, he replied with a statement that really got my hair up. Folks on this forum, and almost every other one that I lurk or participate in, will cry foul when a tool or accessory is not as they imagined, desired, or as described by the vendor. We all, myself included, bemoan the high cost of tools and equipment.
I'll not identify the individual, nor quote the statement, but, the gist of it was, that he had a tool, that due to his own actions, would not perform as it should.. After sending advice as to the remedy for his problem, and looking up replacement part numbers if the repair wouldn't work, he stated that if he couldn't find the part(it is currently in backorder status) he would simply buy another unit the same as the one he had damaged, and when his replacement part did come in. return the new tool for a refund.
What he, and, apparently the common consumer do not understand, is that the cost of tools, and most other commodities not only include the actual cost of materials and labor to produce them, but the marketing, packaging, transportation, and yes, the soaking up of warranty returns. Most manufacturers and distributors have adopted a "no questions asked" policy regarding returns. A manufacturer takes a big hit on returns, they are shipped, evaluated, and repaired, usually at no or little cost to the customer.
The tool in the cited example will be shipped to the return center, evaluated by a technician, and found to have no defect. However, as it has been opened, and recorded by serial number, as a return, it can not be re-sold as a new tool. It must be identified as a reconditioned or refurbished tool, and will be sold, at a discount. The true value of the tool has now become approximately 2 1/2 times the original sale price,.
Food for thought when you wonder why your new tool costs so much.
I worked in the reconditioning arm of PC Delta for a long time and know that this isn't a isolated case. More tools came in with no defects or a missing accessory, than damaged or malfunctioning units. A close second were "weekend rentals, were a tool would be purchased for a short job and returned after the job was complete. Agian, no defects, just 30 minutes of cleanup, and repacking and re-sale at a discount.
My apologies in advance to all those who are honest, and would not consider such actions, but I fear that you, and I are a minority.
To those who do engage in this sort of thing...and you know who you are, consider this: you are helping to drive prices up and quality down as the manufactures struggle to absorb these costs.
If this starts a war, I apologize to all of the community. I especially apologize to the moderators who will get to deal with the fallout from this post. Sorry for making your unenviable job even harder.if I get banned, so be it. It had to be said.
Mickey Cassiba
mcassiba@gmail.com

[Robert McGowen]

I understand what you are saying and agree with you that it is a problem. I am just not sure why you think that your particular thread will be such a giant headache, unless you believe that a bunch of people will jump in and post that just because it is POSSIBLE to shaft a tool company means that it is OKAY to do so. In that case, THOSE are the people that should be banned.

[Greg Cuetara]

Mickey,
Well said. It reminds me of a scam I saw a while back where woman would go in buy a dress...wear it for one night and then bring it back. In my opinion it is not really different than stealing.

Now on the other hand I quite frequently buy extra items at the BORG and then return them. They are fully functional, 99% of the time not opened and can be put back on the shelf and sold for new. I have been told by too many BORG employees to buy extra pieces or buy different sizes and return the ones I don't need so that I don't have to make multiple trips.

Greg

[Greg Peterson]

There is a difference between buying a few extra items for a project and then returning the unopened, unused items in a timely manner.

I work in the wholesale distribution end of things and we have to honor all kinds of customer returns, new, warranty or otherwise. One issue that we deal with is the return rate. Some customers return close to 50% of what they order. Meanwhile, we're re-ordering these items because our inventory is low. Next thing you know, our inventory is to fat.

How many starters do we really need to stock for a 89 S10 2.8L?

And don't get me started on the repair technicians that just trade out parts until they 'solve' the problem. Charging and starting systems seem to stump many technicians.

The nut of the issue is that there is no free lunch. Manufacturers have their hands full trying to produce a product that meets a price point, is desirable in the market and offers the consumer good value.

We don't need selfish knuckleheads abusing the generous return policies supported by retail outlets and manufacturers.

[mickey cassiba]

Mickey,
Well said. It reminds me of a scam I saw a while back where woman would go in buy a dress...wear it for one night and then bring it back. In my opinion it is not really different than stealing.

Now on the other hand I quite frequently buy extra items at the BORG and then return them. They are fully functional, 99% of the time not opened and can be put back on the shelf and sold for new. I have been told by too many BORG employees to buy extra pieces or buy different sizes and return the ones I don't need so that I don't have to make multiple trips.

Greg
I agree with you about buying extra and returning the unused portion. I do it all the time, though I don't generally shop the borgs. Restocking is a lot different than refurbishing. I don't even mind paying a restock fee at my local hardware. And yes the other situation is not different from stealing at all.

[Brian Kent]

Mickey, I agree with you. I think most people would see your common sense too.

Brian

[Stephen Tashiro]

The fact that the S-10 2.8 L has been mentioned brings to mind my experiences with an S-10 2.5 L "Iron Duke". The gist of that experience is that accurate information about troubleshooting and repairing automobiles is usually not available to the general public. So if you are going to sell parts to the general public, which are relying on Chiltons and Haynes manuals, then you have to expect that the public is going to be trying a lot of random parts replacement. True, some will proceed more ineffectively than others, but that is to be expected in any endeavor that the public undertakes.

Diagnosing and repairing power tools is another field where the general public will lack adequate information. Since the name of DeWalt has been mentioned, I refer those interested to the thread (http: //forums ereplacementparts com/power-tool-repair/780-dewalt-dw433-belt-sander-runs-intermittently.htm) on the ereplacmentparts.com forum. (Just replace the spaces with periods and copy/paste the address to your browser.)
Returning things for warranty repair is a nuisance and I find it interesting (although usually futile) to investigate why tools fail.
(As another example, see the thread (http: //www dutchforce com/~eforum/index php?showtopic=29614) on the dutchforce.com electronics forum. Want to talk about starters that failed under warranty? - here is the inside of the starter that Autozone sells for the '90 Corolla after a few months of use in the dry climate of NM: http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww164/tashirosgt/MagSwitch02.jpg)

My conclusion: it is incorrect to analyze the relation between merchants and customers as if both parties are fully informed. It's more like a comedy of errors. Neither party knows exactly what it is doing. I can't get excited about a morality aspect to a situation that is so wonderfully entertaining and humorous.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

I agree on the buying extra parts. on the 'dress' story...I'm reminded of a story I read in the newspaper about these "renters" - they buy/use/return pretty much anything. They interviewed one guy that was proud of his ability to 'rent' - and give it to "the man", since he could never afford these things in the first place. He bought some sort of electronics item (it might have been an MP3 player or a portable DVD player) for a short business trip he had to take, and then returned it when he got back.

The article also mentioned that some stores have gotten to the point of 'banning' certain people, since they have such high rates or returns.

[Gene Howe]

I've never returned anything unless it just flat didn't work. I've never returned purchased overages, either. My overflowing shop drawers will attest to that.

I'm the poster boy for the inverse of "You break it, you buy it". I buy it then I break it. But, I'm too ashamed of my stupidity to return it.

My favorite tool is one that's idiot proof. Ain't found one yet.

[Eric DeSilva]

Now on the other hand I quite frequently buy extra items at the BORG and then return them. They are fully functional, 99% of the time not opened and can be put back on the shelf and sold for new.

I'd argue their return policy is a bit too liberal. I bought a box of 22 cal. strip shots for a concrete gun at the Orange store. Each strip in the box had been used--three shots of the ten used, then the strip put back in the box with the spent rounds at the bottom so you wouldn't see them upon casual inspection. *That* annoyed me.

[Rob Russell]

I'd argue their return policy is a bit too liberal. I bought a box of 22 cal. strip shots for a concrete gun at the Orange store. Each strip in the box had been used--three shots of the ten used, then the strip put back in the box with the spent rounds at the bottom so you wouldn't see them upon casual inspection. *That* annoyed me.

I only partly agree. The HD return clerk should have opened the box up and checked it when it was returned. That would have prevented the partially used strips from being resold. Had the box been full, IMO there's nothing wrong with reselling it.

I will say that I got some tools from HD back when their return policy was more liberal and folks took advantage of that. I've got a Hitachi SDS rotary hammer drill that was just about new. Someone clearly used it for 1 project and returned it. Same thing with a couple of pneumatic Bostitch guns - a coil framer and floor stapler. None of those tools should have been returned as "defective" because they're all in almost new condition and that's not fair to the store.

[Gene Howe]

I'd argue their return policy is a bit too liberal. I bought a box of 22 cal. strip shots for a concrete gun at the Orange store. Each strip in the box had been used--three shots of the ten used, then the strip put back in the box with the spent rounds at the bottom so you wouldn't see them upon casual inspection. *That* annoyed me.

I think my language would have been *slightly* stronger.:D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

It's a different world out there Mickey!

I was in the local HD shopping for a carpet cleaner as the local HD has the best selection in our little part of the world.

A guy standing there suggested I do as he intended to do. Buy it, use it, and return it for a full refund because "he wasn't satisfied with it's performance".

I wouldn't hesitate to return one if it didn't perform well but to purposely take advantage of their return policy? Stinks in my opinion.

[Anthony Scira]

I would pay more if we started making them in the USA again.........

[Anthony Scira]

But to stay on topic people that do the kind of behavior (use & return) will always take advantage of the system. I really don't think there is a way to fix that. But as long as the company keeps making quality tools I will keep buying them. :)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,I will remind you that politcal statements and commentary violate the TOSs. Please refrain from making those statements.

[Greg Peterson]

The gist of that experience is that accurate information about troubleshooting and repairing automobiles is usually not available to the general public. So if you are going to sell parts to the general public, which are relying on Chiltons and Haynes manuals, then you have to expect that the public is going to be trying a lot of random parts replacement.

Sorry Stephen, I wasn't clear. We are a wholesale distributor, and our customers are professional installers. We have a fair number of customers that rent parts, and then at the end of the month return them to us so they don't have to pay for them. Typically, they quote a repair, order the parts (if in doubt about application specific parts they'll all options), and either the job doesn't show up or they use only some of the parts. Regardless, we our inventory grows over time. And since the competitors do not asses a restock fee, we can't.

The cost of 'renting' parts and tools is a very real cost of doing business. It all adds up over time.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

Politics....international politcs and discussions and comments violate the TOSs of the Creek.

I would hate to have to close this thread because certain individuals show they don't have the personal discipline to refrain from making political comments.

[Greg Peterson]

Folks,

Politics....international politcs and discussions and comments violate the TOSs of the Creek.

I would hate to have to close this thread because certain individuals show they don't have the personal discipline to refrain from making political comments.

Huh? I don't see anything political.

[Rob Russell]

Huh? I don't see anything political.


That's because Ken has removed it from public view. Trust me - it's there.

[Rod Sheridan]

I removed my post, as it didn't make much sense after editing.

Regards, Rod.

[Ben Hatcher]

I'm a bit conflicted about my own actions in this regard. A few years ago, I bought a leaf blower/vac. The impeller broke while I was sucking up oak leaves. It must have sucked up a stick or a nut. Anyway, I took it back to HD and exchanged it for another. That impeller broke so I took that one back, too. By this time the season was over. I decided to just return the product for a refund and do some research on better made blower/vacs.

On the one hand, I kind of felt like I was abusing the return policy since I had used the product. On the other hand, I thought that the product was poorly made given that two in a row broke under normal operation. Certainly they should be bare the cost of selling poorly made products.

Was I wrong to return it for a refund?

[Denny Rice]

I'm a bit conflicted about my own actions in this regard. A few years ago, I bought a leaf blower/vac. The impeller broke while I was sucking up oak leaves. It must have sucked up a stick or a nut. Anyway, I took it back to HD and exchanged it for another. That impeller broke so I took that one back, too. By this time the season was over. I decided to just return the product for a refund and do some research on better made blower/vacs.

On the one hand, I kind of felt like I was abusing the return policy since I had used the product. On the other hand, I thought that the product was poorly made given that two in a row broke under normal operation. Certainly they should be bare the cost of selling poorly made products.

Was I wrong to return it for a refund?

NO!!!!!!!!! If you are going to dill out hard earned cash for a product, the company that makes that product has the responsibility to make sure they make a quality product. If two of them broke under normal conditions it was probably JUNK to begin with.

[Kevin Barnett]

Before I empathize, I'd like to know what "due to his own actions" means.

If he had it break due to him using it for it's intended purpose, I'd disagree. You're selling a product that broke because of a non-functional part. He shouldn't have to wait a long time to use the product. His mechanism of recourse is a reaction to the industry not providing good service.

If he really misused it. You're dead on. It's stealing.

[mickey cassiba]

Before I empathize, I'd like to know what "due to his own actions" means.

If he had it break due to him using it for it's intended purpose, I'd disagree. You're selling a product that broke because of a non-functional part. He shouldn't have to wait a long time to use the product. His mechanism of recourse is a reaction to the industry not providing good service.

If he really misused it. You're dead on. It's stealing.
As I understood his description he performed an action that was clearly addressed in the user manual. He did what the book told him not to. I understand that lots of folks don't read the instructions until something goes wrong, but that isn't the vendor's fault. I really can't go into any more detail than that without pointing directly at him, which was not the intent of this thread. I'm not trying to flame any body, I am trying to bring attention the the fact that we all pay for seemingly harmless actions(harmless until looked at in a brighter light).

[mickey cassiba]

I'm a bit conflicted about my own actions in this regard. A few years ago, I bought a leaf blower/vac. The impeller broke while I was sucking up oak leaves. It must have sucked up a stick or a nut. Anyway, I took it back to HD and exchanged it for another. That impeller broke so I took that one back, too. By this time the season was over. I decided to just return the product for a refund and do some research on better made blower/vacs.

On the one hand, I kind of felt like I was abusing the return policy since I had used the product. On the other hand, I thought that the product was poorly made given that two in a row broke under normal operation. Certainly they should be bare the cost of selling poorly made products.

Was I wrong to return it for a refund?
Certainly not! The machine did not do what it was made and marketed to do. Now if you had used it as a device to, say, transfer sand from one container to another, then you would have been in the wrong because the leaf vac was not designed nor sold to perform that task.

[Brent Leonard]

Since when did large corporations pass their savings on to the consumer?

I'm not arguing the "honesty" points made in this thread, I just don't share in the belief that if all the dishonesty ended tomarrow that wholesale and/or retail prices would go down at the same time.

[Greg Peterson]

Since when did large corporations pass their savings on to the consumer?

I'm not arguing the "honesty" points made in this thread, I just don't share in the belief that if all the dishonesty ended tomarrow that wholesale and/or retail prices would go down at the same time.

Anytime a business can reduce expenses, consumers will benefit.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Since when did large corporations pass their savings on to the consumer?


Costco marks up a fixed percentage. When they get a deal... we all do too.

This in effect passes the lower(ed) price to the consumer.
.

[Eric Larsen]

I talked to a very senior citizen today at work. She mentioned she once owned a dress store. High-end, apparently.

Remembering this thread, I asked her, "What did you do about the women who bought dresses, wore them one night, then returned them the next business day?"

I have never seen such an angry look in my life. Her fists clenched. She said, "I never forget a face. I took the damned dress back. And then I told them to leave. And I never let them in my store again."

According to her, it got worse as the decades progressed. Finally, somewhere in the 1980s, she decided enough was enough. So she sold the business.

[Denny Rice]

Anytime a business can reduce expenses, consumers will benefit.

This is not true....Just look how speculators and big oil continue to drive up the price of home heating oil and gasoline even though they have massive amounts in reserve. Their profits are up 100 fold and we are paying higher prices every day.

[Myk Rian]

Anytime a business can reduce expenses, consumers will benefit.
Like when manufacturing (and jobs) goes overseas, and the prices here stay the same, or go higher?

[Greg Peterson]

And I thought I was all alone in my contempt for corporations.

Allow me to refine my point.

Anytime a company experiences a reduction in a expense consumer and/or investors will benefit. If the consumer does not benefit, then it is the investor that realizes the gain. And are not most of us investors these days?

[Rob Robinson VT]

I've spent my entire adult life in consumer electronics, mostly on the manufacturing side, and returns are a very real line item cost that we all put into our budgets. Most of the time when a customer returns a non-defective item the retailer is the one who eats it; however, these days a good many of the big-box stores and warehouse clubs force the manufacturers to take it back, even if not defective, due to their very liberal return policies and lack of trained personnel to evaluate or repackage returned goods. While not the only reason, the high rate of returns on already low profit flat panel TVs was one of the reasons that Circuit City went down the tubes. So, morality aside, there are often really serious long-term consequences to these "free rentals".

[Eric Larsen]

And I thought I was all alone in my contempt for corporations.

Allow me to refine my point.

Anytime a company experiences a reduction in a expense consumer and/or investors will benefit. If the consumer does not benefit, then it is the investor that realizes the gain. And are not most of us investors these days?

My contempt for corporations outshines the sun (OK, too strong. But rein 'em in.) I think you neglected to add "upper management" to the list of people who benefit when a corporation lowers costs. I think you should also move them to the #1 slot, followed by "investors," and then "consumers." There are plenty of others who benefit directly from corporate windfall, but this is getting borderline political already.

[mickey cassiba]

I have a friend that does automotive work. If your car is broken, he will fix it. If you pay him, that's good! If you don't, well he chalks it up to karma.
His motto is: If you can live with it, I can live without it. However, these days, there seem to be a lot more people who can live with it. I myself do not purchase things that I cannot afford, my wife and I have been on a cash economy for over twenty years. I build the things we need if I cannot afford to buy them. I barter services for goods when necessary. We live well, not extravagant, but well. I donate to those less fortunate than I, but do not hesitate to call a cheater a cheater. I am blessed with good friends, good family, and thanks to the internet, good folks that I would go the mat with. I count among them folks I've met here at the creek.
I hope that all who have participated, and all the rest who have followed the input and reaction will take pause, and look around. We each, in our own small way, affect the world we live in.
And with that, gentle folk, I bow out. I hope that this has offered a little food for thought.
Ain't quitten' the creek though, you folks know a a lot of stuff that I want to know. And I will continue to post when I think my input is useful or necessary. Just look over me, ok? Just an old hickabilly tryin' to get by in the 21st century.
And, when I ask a dumb question in one of the other forums, again look over me. I'm just trying to learn new things.
When we stop learning, we start dying.
Mickey

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

Anyone rippingoff a retailer.....big or small...is effecting the cost and quality of services to the rest of us. THERE ARE NO FREE RIDES.

Take shoplifting. There have been numerous news articles and shows about the effects of shoplifting on the price of goods to the rest of the PAYING PUBLIC. Businesses must make a profit or go out of business. If that means they have to raise the price on goods or services to the rest of their customers to recover their shoplifting losses they will do it. Now think of this folks...you can say "they have insurances to cover it..." I don't know but John Q. Consumer is paying for the expense of their insurances too.

Look at the expenses businesses experience just to install, maintain and monitor security systems to stem shoplifting.

Pass the expenses of functioning returned items to the manufacturer. The manufacturer has that factored into the cost the retailer is paying. THERE ARE NO FREE RIDES.

Thievery costs everybody. Period.

[Dave Lehnert]

Folks,

Anyone rippingoff a retailer.....big or small...is effecting the cost and quality of services to the rest of us. THERE ARE NO FREE RIDES.

Take shoplifting. There have been numerous news articles and shows about the effects of shoplifting on the price of goods to the rest of the PAYING PUBLIC. Businesses must make a profit or go out of business. If that means they have to raise the price on goods or services to the rest of their customers to recover their shoplifting losses they will do it. Now think of this folks...you can say "they have insurances to cover it..." I don't know but John Q. Consumer is paying for the expense of their insurances too.

Look at the expenses businesses experience just to install, maintain and monitor security systems to stem shoplifting.

Pass the expenses of functioning returned items to the manufacturer. The manufacturer has that factored into the cost the retailer is paying. THERE ARE NO FREE RIDES.

Thievery costs everybody. Period.

Retailers do carry insurance for loss but has a very high deductible. Some as high as 60K or more.

[Denny Rice]

My contempt for corporations outshines the sun (OK, too strong. But rein 'em in.) I think you neglected to add "upper management" to the list of people who benefit when a corporation lowers costs. I think you should also move them to the #1 slot, followed by "investors," and then "consumers." There are plenty of others who benefit directly from corporate windfall, but this is getting borderline political already.

I don't care what a person talks or blogs about these days, there is something political about it to a degree. There is no way to escape it.

[Rob Robinson VT]

Businesses must make a profit or go out of business.
ah, would that still be true!

[Eric Larsen]

I don't care what a person talks or blogs about these days, there is something political about it to a degree. There is no way to escape it.

True, but I have no desire to make the mods more busy on my account. I've had a couple messages spiked already. I'd like to try to avoid that whenever possible. There are plenty of places to have preposterous arguments. If the Creek wants to be an island of serenity in a world of strong opinions and beliefs, that's probably a good thing.

Serenity is probably impossible in practice, but there's no harm in trying. And there's no reason for me to throw a monkey wrench into the works, just because I have an opinion.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Eric,

I appreciate your showing some restraint! Frankly, none of the Mods really enjoy moderating, editing or deleting anybody's posts. It's not fun. We generally take a lot of heat when we do Anybody who thinks it is fun, should maybe consider consulting a mental health professional.

Contrary to what anybody might read on the web or heard at another site, Moderator's are invited volunteers. We receive no pay for what we do. We do it because we want to see the Creek remain as it is.....a place where beginners to pros can come to exchange information, ideas and experiences and maybe along the way, make a few new friends.

Politics are not an allowed subject for discussion as per the TOSs everyone is supposed to read, understand and agree with when you applied for membership.

There are enough websites out there where if you desire you can go rant, rave, flame and argue politics. You can't do that here.You agreed not to when you joined. Them's the rules. I'm not trying to sound cold but that's the bottom line.

[John Shuk]

More troubling than the original dishonesty is to come to a public forum and vocalize that as an acceptable plan of action. I would frankly be ashamed. Especially on a place like the Creek where I find folks to be honest and frank.

[Keith Outten]

When i was in high school I worked as a bag boy for a major food store. The theft we experienced was significant and we adjusted our prices to cover our losses each quarter. The reason we adjusted prices each quarter is because of the clothing people would wear, rainy days/seasons they wore rain coats and in the Winter when everyone was wearing coats and jackets our losses were the highest.

On Wednesday evenings I worked with the Assistant Manager on the catwalk behind a store wide one way mirror. We had to have two people work the catwalk because it took two witnesses if we were going to press charges against someone stealing merchandise. What I witnessed in over three years watching people steal was an education in how innovative people can be and the great lengths they will go to rather than work and pay for what they consume. Adults are more apt to teach their children to steal than take the risk themselves :(

Our honest customers paid for 100% of the theft in our store. I expect this is still true today.

I am also amazed when taking to people about software theft and stealing other peoples creative efforts how they can be so casual in their justification. If it isn't yours and you take it you are stealing, I don't understand how anyone can twist this very basic rule around to justify their personal point of view.

This is what you get (Higher Prices and worse) when a society fails to teach their children about honor, honesty and respect. I'm talking about several generations here, not just the young ones today.
.

[Brian Elfert]

I worked at a major computer retailer in the early 90s at a store that had just opened. The first quarter we only have $10,000 in shrinkage. That was considered so remarkable the manager bought every employee a nice leather jacket.

They decided $10,000 was still too much so they added a $10,000 surveillance system. I would have thought a major retailer in the 90s would have had cameras from the start, but I guess not.